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Gauracandra

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When we ask this quetion, we assume implicitly that a perfect world can exist. But I do not think so. Even if the world were far better than what it is now, then also we would consider it very bad. We know how the world is now. But we do not compare it with any other world

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Yes, this is a perfect world.

 

Everything is perfectly designed to send us to God's kingdom, to perfect our lives, making us presentable for the Lord.

 

"No doubt the universe is unfolding as it should" - Desiderata

 

Of course, the closer we are to perfection, the easier it is to see that it is indeed a perfect world. When we are so off-course that the karmic reactions need to be so very hectic to get us turned around quickly, it all seems pretty messed up; but eventually the plagues and wars and car crashes boil down to simply stubbing our toes, and with some wisdom such a gentle prod can turn our minds toward Krsna and redirect our paths.

 

If we keep our minds on Krsna, there is no need for the ugly karma we see about us, for we will be on the gentle path to perfection.

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The material world is not supposed to be perfect, it is a place for the jivas that choose not to go to the spiritual world from the border line between the material and spiritual realms.

The jiva will eventually understand that maya is not its true home and start its journey to the spiritual realm, but it may take ages and ages......

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You are assuming that you somehow unlearned how to love Krsna, Sarasvati, by your statement that the purpose is to re-learn. Since the nitya-baddha jiva never did know how, there is no question of re-learning, just learning it for the first time.

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God wanted to make a perfect world, but then He met me. No matter how hard He tried, He could not correct me. I was completely incorrigible and stubborn. Then He gave up trying to make a perfect world.

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Just trying to be devils advocate here for a second.

 

So God says "Either choose to love me and come to this perfect world. Or if you don't love me, I send you to a place of pain and misery, until you choose to love me."

 

Sounds to me like God has a gun to our heads. Either we "choose" to love Him or else we suffer. Why not give us a perfect place to live, and then if we voluntarily choose to love God we can go to another perfect place to love God as well?

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Why not give us a perfect place to live, and then if we voluntarily choose to love God we can go to another perfect place to love God as well?

 

Going from one perfect place to another may not be a reward.

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Why ask that question when you should be asking the question, "how do I put an end to the suffering of samsara?" Then you might also ask, "how do I develop krsna-prema?"

 

It all depends on your level of understanding I guess. If you are a Vaishnava knowledgeable of sastra, your questions are going to be entirely different from someone who does not possess that knowledge.

 

It is a good question, however. Why would the jivas be cast into the material creation, when they could just be instilled with divine bliss, knowledge and consciousness (saccidananda) at any moment? Is it just to learn some lesson? Is it just because of their desire and the Lord is merely accommodating their propensity for enjoyment? Is it so that they can gradually dissolve the ahankara (material ego) over many lifetimes? It is natural for someone who is experiencing suffering to ponder why.

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Rati, where is the justice if one group of devotees has always lived in the spiritual world (talking about jiva-tattva devotees now, not sakti-tattva like the gopis who are expansions of the Goddess)when another group has always lived in the material world? How did we deserve it? Was God whimsical? I don't see the logic.

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Sarasvati's question is one that has bugged me for some time.

 

In Jaiva-dharma ch.16, we read that innumerable jiva's appear from Sri Baladeva to serve Krishna in Goloka Vrndaban.Similarly from Sankarsana jiva's appear to serve Narayana in Vaikuntha.They never know maya and the strength of their bhakti sakti keeps them established in their devotion.So my question goes to what appears to be an absence of free will in becoming established in those relationships in the first place.

 

Then we come to us.The 'grade b'jivas.We came from Maha-Visnu and are situated in a marginal position where we can catch a glimpse of maya and fall into the material atmosphere.

 

Clearly disitnct classes of jiva's.

 

This is a doubting point for me and if someone can clear it I would appreciate it.

 

doubting theist

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Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

All this sounds interesting to me. I never heard this.

 

 

abhi_the_great,

 

Do you have a copy of Jaiva Dharma?Does anyone know of an online version.If so please post a link.

 

 

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Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Just trying to be devils advocate here for a second.

 

So God says "Either choose to love me and come to this perfect world. Or if you don't love me, I send you to a place of pain and misery, until you choose to love me."

 

Sounds to me like God has a gun to our heads. Either we "choose" to love Him or else we suffer. Why not give us a perfect place to live, and then if we voluntarily choose to love God we can go to another perfect place to love God as well?

How do we define perfect place?A place without suffering and loads and loads of sense gratification is what I generally think of.I think of perfection as a place,Vaikuntha, a world with no anxieties, where I can enjoy forever.

 

The flaw though is in thinking of 'perfect place' as some impersonal territory, when in fact every'thing' there is personal, conscious and and engaged in loving interactions.

 

Krsna is that perfect place.

 

Our problem arises when we want the Kingdom of God without God, or ourselves as God of that kingdom.

 

So we all want the throne.In our vying for that position as the central enjoyer we end up stepping on each others toes causing suffering to others even as they walk on us.

 

So if our idea of perfect place includes relationships and others at all, it follows that it must be Krsna centered.

 

If we just can't handle that,well there is always the brahmajyoti to hang out in.

 

One thing I like about Krsna starting us off in a neutral position is that we actually get to initiate the expression of our own beings.That is we can stay in the Brahman or go to either the spiritual or material sides for varigated life.

 

No forced suffering.No guns to our heads.As full an expression of freedom as one can handle.

 

I may not like the fact that there is no one to blame for my suffering but me,but it's true nonetheless.

 

 

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Its probably just simple case of us poor jivas not being able to comprehend the cause of and reason for our situation, Sarasvati. Why else would we need enlightened souls to point the way for us and the grace of the Lord to help us on our way? And, as someone else here already pointed out, once we get free of our bondage, are we really going to care one way or the other what put us there in the first place? I doubt it.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-19-2002).]

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The flaw though is in thinking of 'perfect place' as some impersonal territory, when in fact every'thing' there is personal, conscious and and engaged in loving interactions.

 

Krsna is that perfect place.

Exactly. I think if we define God as the source of all happiness, then separation from God must be a source of unhappiness. Thus if we choose to not love God, its not Gods fault if we then are unhappy.

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All things are perfect for God's plan except developing souls. They are imperfect & bring imperfection to the world. You would not take equalitarianism for granted if you acknowledged the existence of souls & their diff. consciousness level.

 

Esdras II

 

7:20 Let many perish who are now living, rather than that the law of God which is set before them be disregarded!

 

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I for once do not believe a perfect world could exist in this world.

 

In a perfect world, there is no worries, suffering, anxiety etc ... it just peaceful all the time.

 

Therefore, when a person is in peace all the time, he or she will become static and do not learn new things - thus do not evolve.

 

Take Dinosaurs for example ... they lived nearly 250 Million years but do you see any ancient civilizations which started by the Dinosaurs? Nope, because they were static - live for the day kind of concept.

 

In order for Man to evolve, he needs to be in an imperfect world. The imperfection doesn't exist in physical world but in his own mind. Possessed with his own defination of "Perfection", man tries to change the world in his own image, thus causing ever changing phase which other are forced to follow or left behind.

 

Example - Actions of Adolf Hitler which brought the world to war ... and the same war which shaped Science and Technology which exists today.

 

God's world is always perfect ... Man's world is not.

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This world isnt perfect for our sense gratification.

This world is perfect for our rectification.

 

Like the christians they say 'god created the world and it was all good'. They take 'all good' to mean good for our 'sense grat'. Therefore a problem arises.

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Hare Krishna

 

Yes, I agree that this material world is perfect, more precisely perfectly equipped with everything to help us to attain self-realization.

 

When we say that the material world is imperfect that is only because of our imperfect vision.

 

But let me ask a question. What do you think is imperfect in this material world. Give some examples and then we can discuss that.

 

Please chant Hare Krishna and be happy.

 

Nitai

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