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Gauracandra

When does the soul enter the body?

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I was standing in the grocery line and saw the front cover of Time (I think) with a headline about "Stem cell wars". Essentially the controversy is over whether to use stem cells from embryos to help find cures for diseases.

 

So the perennial question that is always asked in these types of controversies is "When does life begin?" To me I don't think there is any argument that life begins at conception. But is this a separate question of when does the soul enter the body?

 

I swear I have read somewhere or heard somewhere that the Vedic scriptures declare that the soul enters the human form like 4-8 weeks after conception, like when the fetus is the size of a thumb. I can't remember where I read this. Can anyone confirm this? and give any insight into the process the soul goes through in entering a body.

 

And if the soul enters the body at this stage would that change anyone's opinion on using stem cells from embryos for research. If there is no soul in the embryos, though it is potential life. Its a very delicate question.

 

I wasn't sure whether to put this in the Spiritual forum or the World Review forum, but figured this had more to do with ethics and spirituality. Any comments?

 

Gauracandra

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Timely topic Gaurachandra.Here is SB 3.31.1 where it says the soul enters into a particle of the male semen.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semen to assume a particular type of body.sb 3.31.1

 

PURPORT

As stated in the last chapter, after suffering different kinds of hellish conditions, a man comes again to the human form of body. The same topic is continued in this chapter. In order to give a particular type of human form to a person who has already suffered hellish life, the soul is transferred to the semen of a man who is just suitable to become his father. During sexual intercourse, the soul is transferred through the semen of the father into the mother’s womb in order to produce a particular type of body. This process is applicable to all embodied living entities, but it is especially mentioned for the man who was transferred to the Andha-tämisra hell. After suffering there, when he who has had many types of hellish bodies, like those of dogs and hogs, is to come again to the human form, he is given the chance to take his birth in the same type of body from which he degraded himself to hell.

Everything is done by the supervision of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Material nature supplies the body, but it does so under the direction of the Supersoul. It is said in Bhagavad-gétä that a living entity is wandering in this material world on a chariot made by material nature. The Supreme Lord, as Supersoul, is always present with the individual soul. He directs material nature to supply a particular type of body to the individual soul according to the result of his work, and the material nature supplies it. Here one word, retaù-kaëäçrayaù, is very significant because it indicates that it is not the semen of the man that creates life within the womb of a woman; rather, the living entity, the soul, takes shelter in a particle of semen and is then pushed into the womb of a woman. Then the body develops. There is no possibility of creating a living entity without the presence of the soul simply by sexual intercourse. The materialistic theory that there is no soul and that a child is born simply by material combination of the sperm and ovum is not very feasible. It is unacceptable.

 

YS MC

 

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Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Essentially the controversy is over whether to use stem cells from embryos to help find cures for diseases.

Gauracandra

This question even gets more complicated. The embryos they want to use are ones they have had frozen by couples that may want them in the future.At some point they have all these extra embryos and need to discard them for various reasons.

 

So they pose the question, "Well we are going to dispose of them anyway,so why not get some valuable use from them instead of just dumping them in the trash?"

 

They create this ridiculous situation of frozen embryos in the first place, which leads to all these best use of a bad bargin type choices.

 

How do we answer them?

 

 

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Dear Forum Members:

The purport to Srimad Bhagvatam 3.31.1 says:"In order to give a particular type of human form to a person who has already suffered hellish life, the soul is transferred to the semen of a man who is just suitable to become his father."

 

So does it mean that the Supreme Lord selectively transfers the spirit soul to the semen of a person who is ready to be a father and not otherwise? Would the Lord transfer the soul to a the semen of a celibate sannyasa or priest who had no intention of being a father?

 

Generally,out of millions of semen,only one survives to develop into a foetus,what about the rest? Could it be that only that the one "successful" semen particle carries a soul in it?

 

So basically,I am enquiring whether there is any information,scriptural or otherwise,whether all semen particles contain souls or whether only some semen particles do.I will be grateful if anyone could enlighten me on this matter.

 

Yours in the spirit of enquiry

leyh

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 07-08-2001).]

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leyh,

 

You have probably read those conversations that Srila Prabhupada had with Svarupa Damodara Gosvami in that small book,Life Comes From Life.

 

In there he says that each cell is a separate living entity.

 

I don't know exactly when that soul that is destined for human form enters.Interesting question.Seems like it could be at anytime during the journey.

 

I always held the picture of a second soul, the one to be human,just kind of jumping in at the last minute and riding the sperm cell to the egg.Giddyup.Nah,actually more like riding inside, like a passenger in one of those hydroplanes.

 

But two souls, one to be human and the other just a regular spermie.But that may be just my overactive imagination. Anybody know the facts?

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The concept of a soul as either an egg or as

a sperm cell is indeed strange.There must be the union of both to constitute a separate

soul.In this there is balance,just as a child

that is deprived of either parent will display an imbalanced character.

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For the body to form and develop there must be a union of egg and sperm cells, but not necessarily for the soul to exist. The soul is eternal, so obviously it exists prior to the union of egg and sperm cells. Thus what is the necessity to limit its presence to that of a developing human body. The Upanishads describe how the soul descends from the heavenly realm through the rain, and enters into the grains (as an accompanying soul to the plant). When the human eats that particular grain (under the arrangement of karma), the soul enters into the male body and resides in the sperm until the time of conception.

 

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Originally posted by jndas:

For the body to form and develop there must be a union of egg and sperm cells, but not necessarily for the soul to exist. The soul is eternal, so obviously it exists prior to the union of egg and sperm cells. Thus what is the necessity to limit its presence to that of a developing human body. The Upanishads describe how the soul descends from the heavenly realm through the rain, and enters into the grains (as an accompanying soul to the plant). When the human eats that particular grain (under the arrangement of karma), the soul enters into the male body and resides in the sperm until the time of conception.

Dear jndas:

If the transfering of the soul to sperm cells through karma,then does that mean that a soul only enters the sperm of a man who is destined to become a father,or do souls enter into the sperms of all men even those who do not have the karma to be a father? And if the soul "descends from the heavenly realm through the rain, and enters into the grains" then how about people who do not eat vegetables?

 

 

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Originally posted by Maitreya:

Timely topic Gaurachandra.Here is SB 3.31.1 where it says the soul enters into a particle of the male semen.

In Australia mice have been product using the cross-genetic material from two female mice. No male sperm is required for this cross-gene procreation. Using this development an infertile or impotent male can also use one cell containing his DNA, so as to produce cross-genetic offspring with his wife. To ensure the creation of the necessary genetic proportions for human development chemicals are used to dissolve unwanted gene matter. In such incidences the offspring are not clones. In cloning, a cell containing only one person's DNA is sufficient for the function; and to provide the necessary equipment for the formation of an embryo in host mother.

 

So what of the soul? Where does it come from? This also brings into question the infallibility of the "Srimad Bhagavatam"

 

>>> Fixed the quote. -jndas

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 07-15-2001).]

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Some variuos points:

 

I swear I have read somewhere or heard somewhere that the Vedic scriptures declare that the soul enters the human form like 4-8 weeks after conception...

This is in reference to the soul becoming conscious of his new body. The soul is present in the developing body from the beginning, but he is in an unconscious state and is not aware of his situation.

 

If the transfering of the soul to sperm cells through karma,then does that mean that a soul only enters the sperm of a man who is destined to become a father,or do souls enter into the sperms of all men even those who do not have the karma to be a father?

All sperm cells contain a soul, but whether or not the soon to be born human is the dominant soul in the sperm, or an accompanying soul (as is the case when he comes through the grain) will require some clarification. Madhva is clear in his commentaries that the soul entering the grain is only an accompanying soul, but I have not seen him comment the same in regards to the sperm cell. I will refer some of his writings and see if he does mention this more clearly.

 

And if the soul "descends from the heavenly realm through the rain, and enters into the grains" then how about people who do not eat vegetables?

This is only one method of souls being born in human form after having fallen from the svarga-loka (due to having exhausted their punya karmas). Such souls are generally not born in areas where there is no vegetation or grains (which are considered as inauspicious places). There are many other way by which a soul is born as a human. For example, while rising from animal to human, it is described in the shastras that the cow, lion and monkey also take birth as humans (according to sattva, rajas, and tamas predominence). Such souls do not fall as rain, enter grains, etc. Nature makes another arrangement for them to enter suitable wombs.

 

So what of the soul? Where does it come from? This also brings into question the infallibility of the "Srimad Bhagavatam".

Bodies are nothing but an accomodation for the soul. There are countless living entities waiting for suitable accomodations to develop, so that they may take birth. As soon as a suitable accomodation is made (either by a natural process, or by a human assisted process) a soul will enter that body by the guidance of the material nature.

 

The Taittiriya Upanishad is speaking specifically of the pious souls who had attained the heavenly abodes (svarga-loka), and who had then returned to earth, having exhausted their pious merit. There are unlimited other possibilities that one must consider.

 

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So what of the soul? Where does it come from? This also brings into question the infallibility of the "Srimad Bhagavatam"

 

Suryaz,

 

For what it is worth here is how I see it.

 

Modern science is still only combining cellular material that was previously created.So they are just substituting the petri dish for the womb,imitating what they have observed in nature.

 

They get some credit for their powers of observation and manipulation but not life creation.

 

In nature already we find snails that are sexless giving birth without partners of any kind.

 

For cells, dividing is how they give birth.

 

The principle point is that souls are not products of material combination.

 

Some develop novel ways to play God, and the Supersoul allows it and gives all facility.

 

When I was a child I had a play chemistry set and I would pretend to create so many things.[usually bombs Posted Image]

 

So maya has given these scientists little chemistry sets to play creator with.And some souls have a particular karma to experience birth in that way.

 

I am sure there are endless ways for matter and spirit to interact throughout the universe.

 

So the soul comes from Krishna and the Bhagavatam is mean to take us back to Him.

 

"Take the essence..."

 

 

 

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Please read:

Srimad Bhagavatam, chapter 31: "Lord Kapila's Instructions on the Movements of the Living Entities".

From text 1 explains about the soul entering a particular type of body.

 

Text 10:

 

Translation:

 

 

"Thus endowed with the development of consciousness from the seventh month after his conception, the child is tossed downward by the airs that press the embryo during the weeks preceding delivery. Like the worms born of the same filthty abdominal cavity, he cannot remain in one place."

 

 

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atma,

 

That refers to the soul becoming aware of its situation.

 

Here is 3.31.1 and part of the purport:

 

TRANSLATION

The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semen to assume a particular type of body.

 

PURPORT

As stated in the last chapter, after suffering different kinds of hellish conditions, a man comes again to the human form of body. The same topic is continued in this chapter. In order to give a particular type of human form to a person who has already suffered hellish life, the soul is transferred to the semen of a man who is just suitable to become his father. During sexual intercourse, the soul is transferred through the semen of the father into the mother’s womb in order to produce a particular type of body.

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Sorry if I didn't explain myself better. I wanted to say that if you start from text 1 of that chapter and continue reading you'll get the information. I put text 10 because somebody was asking about the conciousness of the soul. Bhagavatam explains that in the 7th month after conception conciousness develops.

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Just a little story about the fetus having consciousness.

When I was pregnant with my first baby sometimes my husband used to read Bhagavad Gita aloud for me and the baby's sake. One evening in the middle of reading, he said: "Govinda or Radha (those were the names for the baby), if you're listening, kick your mother". Radhika gave me such a kick that he even saw my stomach moving where she kicked!

I was in my 7th or 8th month.

I read all the Ramayan for that baby and in the end are blessings for pregnants women to have babies who will be devotees of the Lord. From very early Radhika has been a devotee of Lord Rama.

The seeds are planted now is up to them to develop their Krsna consciousness.

 

How sad is to see pregnant women smoking, eating meat or spicy food, drinking, having sex, etc. After you read that chapter of the Bhagavatam you want the best for the baby and will do anything to protect the fetus. Actually, even without reading the Bhagavatam, just common sense is needed.

 

 

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Once when walking in to Barnes and Noble I happened to hear this guest author say something striking.

 

Her research was on twins while in the womb.She mentioned how ultra sound scans showed twins in the womb displaying signs of affection.Touching one another with obvious awareness of the others presence in a loving way.

 

I should have bought her book as now I can't even remember her name.

 

If anyone knows please post the info.

 

Thanks

MC

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This is a translation of a telepathicly transmitted conversation overheard between twins in the womb.Nah,just kidding.Nice little story anyway found on a Christian site.

 

Twins, a sister and brother were talking to each other in the womb. The little sister said to the little brother: ‘I believe that there is life after birth!’ Her brother protested: ‘No, no, this is all there is. This is a dark and cosy place, and we have nothing else to do but to cling on to the cord that feeds us.’ But the little girl insisted: ‘There must be something more than this dark place, there must be something else where there is light and freedom to move.’ Still she could not convince her twin brother. Then...after some silence, she said hesitantly: ‘I have something else to say, and I am afraid you won’t believe that either, but I think there is a mother!’ Her little brother now became furious: ‘A mother, a mother, what are you talking about? I have never seen a mother and neither have you. Who put that idea in your head? As I told you, this place is all we have so let’s be content.’ The little sister finally said: ‘Don’t you feel this pressure sometimes? Its really unpleasant and sometimes even painful.’ ‘Yes,’ he answered, ‘what’s special about that?’ ‘Well,’ the sister said, ‘I think this pressure is there to get us ready for another place, much more beautiful than this, where we will see our mother face to face! Don’t you think that’s exciting!.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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It is not that the soul enter the body, but sastras actually states that the soul develop the body according to his past tendencies. As Jndas has mentioned, sruti text says that the departing soul takes with him the element water, that comes back with him again to that world.

 

As water is the main component of the material body, the Upanisad mention water as the sum of all the material components of the subtle body that goes up to Svarga and come back with the soul to this world when the meritorious karma is finished.

 

Falling down like rain, and after clinging into a plant and eaten by humans, this soul enter a human semen increasing his amount of water and developing a gross body by fermentation. It is not that the soul enter in a embryo at any time. Embryo itself is made by soul.

 

Note that this cycle is a special cycle, meant for those who are falling down from Svargaloka, not for all human beings. (5th oblation cycle)

 

Some smrtis states that during Kali-yuga human souls may perform even the 3rd cycle of transmigration (the fast and immediately one).

 

 

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I have always wondered how does medical science not accept existence of a soul.

 

I may be grossly mistaken but once I thought about what exactly happens when a human dies? Everything "material" or "physical" that existed when someone was alive also exists when death occurs. So what is the difference between a dead body and a live body. Soemthing that used to operate that mass which is "dead" has disappeared now resulting in death.

 

When a bullet pierces a body. it takes away nothing "physical"? Then why does one die?

 

What does medical science say about this?

 

Thanks,

Rakesh

 

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There are different levels of 'medical science.' The ordinary medical science in West is meant to people who are gross materialists, under the conception of gross body existence. They cannot even imagine the existence of a subtle body, what to say to argue on the soul.

 

But some scientists and doctors do believe in soul and some of them are even seeking after atma and Atman.

 

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One thing admirable about whatever the west does/believes is that they have facts and figures.

So if and when Ayuyveda says that death is nothing but "soul departing from the body" without any "scientific proof", the medical science will not claim/say that simply because it cannot provide any "scientfic proof". So I think that this medical science must say something about death thats "logical"; Why is a dead body "dead"?

 

Can someone please tell me whats the differece between "Atma" and "Atman"?

 

Thanks,

Rakesh

 

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dubeyrakesh,

 

I am not a scientist, but I do know that even now they are debating the issue of what is death.

 

They don't know exactly.It used to be measured as heartbeat, present or absent.Or the same with breath.But now they have machines that can imitate or force the body to preform those tasks.They also have developed ways of measuring brain activity and so now the standard is no brain activity = death.

 

Others are now saying that the neogenesis of nerve and brain tissue will re-establish brain function and thus restore life.They say this because they consider consciousness to be a product of the brain.This is why some poor fools are paying 40,000 dollars to have their heads frozen.Cryonics.They dream that in the future this will be perfected and they will be brought back to life.

 

A sucker is born every birth but some take it to the extreme.

 

Most argue that consciousness is the issue,but no material scientist has been able to find it, even though they are *consciously* looking for it.

 

They are frustrated.

 

It is interesting that this is the point where point Bhagavad-gita begins,with Arjuna's frustration and Krishna explaining the soul-consciousness.

 

But at least they are searching.When they adopt the method of inquiry that Arjuna exhibited success will be theirs.

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

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