doctoral folly continues

December 5, 2004

It appears that both national organizations will be proceeding forward

with an agenda of an entry level doctorate degree, though with a

slightly different emphasis. this despite there being no pressing

public need, no majority support in the field (based upon ACAOM

surveys) and the little hoover report, which expressly said there was

not even any justification for the last increase in hours. when I

asked why this strategy was continuing, I was told because no other 4

year medical degree results in a master's degree. While that may be

true, four year medical degrees do not necessarily result in the doctor

title. Physical therapist, nurse practitioner, physician's assistants

all require 4 or more years of total training, yet do not result in the

title doctor. The only 4 years health professional degrees that do

result in the title doctor are those in which there is significant

WESTERN medical training, enough to make a medical diagnosis, such as

chiropractic and the states that license NDs. There is no precedent

for an allied healthcare provider, regardless of independent status, to

have this title if they are not trained to make western dx. LHC said

we are not so trained and advised that such training should NOT be

required as part of our entry level licenses. They said we should get

a western med license if we want to practice this way. I am amazed

that our so-called leaders have somehow twisted this message to mean

full steam ahead with the doctorate. This is going to waste valuable

professional resources on this futile cause. I would urge the rank and

file to withdraw support from any organization that supports an entry

level doctorate and devote resources to organizations that will fight

important battles, such as the continued free access to herbs and

DECREASED government regulation of EVERYTHING (instead of the increased

barriers to practice proposed by those advocate an entry level DAOM -

yes, requiring more training to practice is about as anti-libertarian

as one can get - voluntary titles and education are the true

libertarian paradigm). the second tier doctorate more than serves any

imaginable purpose of this title and for all those who want or need it

for themselves or their practitioners, it's already there and its

voluntary. Since there will be no grandfathering either way, those

who want the title should get off their butts and enroll in one of the

4 existing programs or shut the heck up and stop wasting all our time

and money on this going nowhere idea. The day of this hyper-regulatory

crap is over.

Chinese Herbs

December 5, 2004

In a message dated 12/5/2004 7:13:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,

alonmarcus writes:

>>>>Again you are missing the point of a recognized Dr level entry degree.

This is the only way we will be a medical force in the US. And i do not mean a

Dr degree from our current school programs. We need regional accredited

professional Dr programs. Anything else will just result in our loosing any

power

over our own destiny.

This is such a load of BS. You are in the process of destabilizing our

profession. We will have fewer practitioners, less clout, less adherence to

classic protocol.

Entry doctoral degree is a poor idea. In the end, it will hurt our

profession.

You are hurting our profession. Todd is right. There are far more

important issues to spend energy on.

Chris

December 5, 2004

I would beg to differ with you on this idea that things are over.

It would actually appear that they are just beginning. The events

You speak of are all interconnected. As for the PT profession, they

are also moving toward a professional doctorate degree. While I do

understand the argument against wanting to change things, the truth

is that we need to improve our status or nothing will happen. The

Federal government appears to be interested in helping allopathic medicine

eliminate us. We need to fight for state legislation that will allow for

Continued usage and education in clinical labs. These are simply

Rudimentary and yet losing this could be disasterous. Some herbal

Conditions, like hepatitis, should be monitored. If you are prescribing

Herbs, you should know what the lab values mean. Look, the chiropractors

Also have this ability yet it does not reflect what they believe in.

Chiropractors

Have a limited ability here as well. They cannot diagnose outside of their

Limited training. I have found very few DC actually order lab tests. It

would

not hurt us if we knew how to read an xray either. Think of the benefit for

bone problems. In conclusion, if we are to keep a unified profession, that

is inline with SE Asia then we need to fight for this. If not, then a

divide

will surely continue to widen between those of us trained in the states

and those trained as physicians (medical) in the rest of the Orient. Our

profession split from the MD years ago as they chose not to embrace us.

Medicine today would be a whole lot different if they had chosen to. We

need

To become more savvy to the politics of what is going on. The national

Associations are pursuing this because this is something that we, as a

Profession, can do on our own. We do not need to have outside involvement

To determine what we do. Please remember, that the usage of lab tests

Is not the sole property of the AMA (see the Florida decision at AOMNC

website)

Nor is it a matter that we are required to do. It is a matter of us

performing

A service to our patients as best as we can. I hope you can join us in

creating

Harmony for us all by working together. Thanks for your concerns. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

On 12/5/04 3:20 PM, " " < wrote:

> It appears that both national organizations will be proceeding forward

> with an agenda of an entry level doctorate degree, though with a

> slightly different emphasis. this despite there being no pressing

> public need, no majority support in the field (based upon ACAOM

> surveys) and the little hoover report, which expressly said there was

> not even any justification for the last increase in hours. when I

> asked why this strategy was continuing, I was told because no other 4

> year medical degree results in a master's degree. While that may be

> true, four year medical degrees do not necessarily result in the doctor

> title. Physical therapist, nurse practitioner, physician's assistants

> all require 4 or more years of total training, yet do not result in the

> title doctor. The only 4 years health professional degrees that do

> result in the title doctor are those in which there is significant

> WESTERN medical training, enough to make a medical diagnosis, such as

> chiropractic and the states that license NDs. There is no precedent

> for an allied healthcare provider, regardless of independent status, to

> have this title if they are not trained to make western dx. LHC said

> we are not so trained and advised that such training should NOT be

> required as part of our entry level licenses. They said we should get

> a western med license if we want to practice this way. I am amazed

> that our so-called leaders have somehow twisted this message to mean

> full steam ahead with the doctorate. This is going to waste valuable

> professional resources on this futile cause. I would urge the rank and

> file to withdraw support from any organization that supports an entry

> level doctorate and devote resources to organizations that will fight

> important battles, such as the continued free access to herbs and

> DECREASED government regulation of EVERYTHING (instead of the increased

> barriers to practice proposed by those advocate an entry level DAOM -

> yes, requiring more training to practice is about as anti-libertarian

> as one can get - voluntary titles and education are the true

> libertarian paradigm). the second tier doctorate more than serves any

> imaginable purpose of this title and for all those who want or need it

> for themselves or their practitioners, it's already there and its

> voluntary. Since there will be no grandfathering either way, those

> who want the title should get off their butts and enroll in one of the

> 4 existing programs or shut the heck up and stop wasting all our time

> and money on this going nowhere idea. The day of this hyper-regulatory

> crap is over.

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

> approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

> discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

December 6, 2004

Please wake up people. Our profession has been unstable for a long time.

It is now manifesting this as more outside pressure is being put upon us, by

various governmental influences. We have no national standard, please do

not say NCCAOM is a standard, I mean at the legislative level. Second, we

missed the boat years ago by not making first primary professional doctorate

the standard. Our predecessors, who did not like politics, chose for us a

lower road with legislation. As a result, look what we have today, a mess.

The current level of training is adequate for our profession to be a doctor.

We are going through growing pains now as a result of what has transpired

in the past. This is kind of like the federal budgetary issues, eventually

we will need to pay our bills. We are just biding time and putting off

change temporarily. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus

>

>Re: doctoral folly continues

>Mon, 6 Dec 2004 14:02:49 -0800

>

>You are in the process of destabilizing our

>profession.

> >>>

>O boy watch out

>

December 6, 2004

physician's assistants

>>>PA is between 1 1/2 to 3 years

December 6, 2004

I am amazed

that our so-called leaders have somehow twisted this message to mean

full steam ahead with the doctorate.

>>>Why should the profession pay any mind to the LHC. We should push for what is

in our best intrests period.

Since there will be no grandfathering either way, those

who want the title should get off their butts and enroll in one of the

4 existing programs or shut the heck up and stop wasting all our time

and money on this going nowhere idea. The day of this hyper-regulatory

crap is over.

>>>>Again you are missing the point of a recognized Dr level entry degree. This

is the only way we will be a medical force in the US. And i do not mean a Dr

degree from our current school programs. We need regional accredited

professional Dr programs. Anything else will just result in our loosing any

power over our own destiny.

December 6, 2004

For those doctor wannabe's, go to med school.

We are not going to solve any of our problems by aping the title of

doctor, either with volutnary post-entry level eduction or entry-level

education going to a mandatory doctoral degree. If we continue to take

the same kind of students and teach them by the same kinds of teachers

in the same kinds of schools run by the same kinds of people, we will

get the same kinds of graduates. If those same old-same old graduates

call themselves doctors, we will be shooting ourselves in the foot for

sure.

I still say we should simply adopt our own, unique title. Even if it

is a foreign word, like yi-sheng or yi-shi, with a little consistent

P.R. effort we can get the public to adopt it within a year or so, no

problem. Look how Madonna has made the word " kabbala " recognizable to

everyone in a period of 12 months or less. Most Americans are

comfortable with foreign title words like sensei, sifu, mullah,

ayatollah, mujaheddin, rabbi, rebbe, lama, rinpoche, yogi, etc. Who

knew what a fatwa was three or four years ago? Or an RPG or IED? Where

did the words bagel, bialy, pizza, pannini, expresso, latte,

bruschetta, salsa, fajitas, and tortilla come from? Not Anglo-Saxon;

that's for sure. Americans adopted the title " barista " without any

hesitation, and we all now know what a grande is. So why not Flaws

Yi-sheng, Luger Yi-sheng, and Marcus Yi-sheng? All it would take is a

will and some consistency of presentation.

Are we so lacking in vision and the ability to think outside the box?

The fact that we cannot come up with a more creative solution to the

admitted issue of a workable title for members of our profession is

itself testimony to our lack of smarts as a profession. But then

Americans like our leaders to be average Joes, and average means just

that: ho-hum, medium, ma-ma hu-hu, not exceptional, not superior, not

great. Tant pis pour nous.

Bob

December 6, 2004

You are in the process of destabilizing our

profession.

>>>

O boy watch out

December 6, 2004

Bob,

The same logic would then hold true that if you want the title Yi sheng then

one should move to China. Those of us in the states, may want to be

respectfully called " doctor " as it is a common title for numerous healthcare

providers who received the appropriate level of training. Of course you can

always get a license in a state that provides this title such as Rhode

Island (D Ac) or New Mexico (OMD). I wonder how the public would see this.

Is this a better solution? I tend to like the Florida AP designation. What

do you think? Later.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001

>

> Re: doctoral folly continues

>Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:08:04 -0000

>

>For those doctor wannabe's, go to med school.

>

>We are not going to solve any of our problems by aping the title of

>doctor, either with volutnary post-entry level eduction or entry-level

>education going to a mandatory doctoral degree. If we continue to take

>the same kind of students and teach them by the same kinds of teachers

>in the same kinds of schools run by the same kinds of people, we will

>get the same kinds of graduates. If those same old-same old graduates

>call themselves doctors, we will be shooting ourselves in the foot for

>sure.

>

>I still say we should simply adopt our own, unique title. Even if it

>is a foreign word, like yi-sheng or yi-shi, with a little consistent

>P.R. effort we can get the public to adopt it within a year or so, no

>problem. Look how Madonna has made the word " kabbala " recognizable to

>everyone in a period of 12 months or less. Most Americans are

>comfortable with foreign title words like sensei, sifu, mullah,

>ayatollah, mujaheddin, rabbi, rebbe, lama, rinpoche, yogi, etc. Who

>knew what a fatwa was three or four years ago? Or an RPG or IED? Where

>did the words bagel, bialy, pizza, pannini, expresso, latte,

>bruschetta, salsa, fajitas, and tortilla come from? Not Anglo-Saxon;

>that's for sure. Americans adopted the title " barista " without any

>hesitation, and we all now know what a grande is. So why not Flaws

>Yi-sheng, Luger Yi-sheng, and Marcus Yi-sheng? All it would take is a

>will and some consistency of presentation.

>

>Are we so lacking in vision and the ability to think outside the box?

>The fact that we cannot come up with a more creative solution to the

>admitted issue of a workable title for members of our profession is

>itself testimony to our lack of smarts as a profession. But then

>Americans like our leaders to be average Joes, and average means just

>that: ho-hum, medium, ma-ma hu-hu, not exceptional, not superior, not

>great. Tant pis pour nous.

>

>Bob

>

December 7, 2004

" The same logic would then hold true that if you want the title Yi

sheng then one should move to China. "

Not so. The title yi-sheng in China is used for persons with only a

B.S. degree. Whether one has a B.S., M.S., Ph.D., or M.D. in China,

all are called yi-sheng in clinic.

As for our current graduates deserving to be called " doctor, " not on

the planet I live on.

Bob

December 7, 2004

" The Federal government appears to be interested in helping allopathic

medicine eliminate us. "

If you really want to fight this, then attack the root of the problem.

That root is the Medical Practices Act that gave MDs a monopoly. This

is unfair restraint of trade. The conservative Republicans who are

currently in power are/should be/would be sympathetic to this

argument. I have talked to Republican Senators who agree that the

granting of this monopoly was a mistake and should never have

occurred. This is essentially a freedom of choice and free market

issue. It is the positive side to the current political situation.

Repeal this monopoly (or at least make people aware of what it

actually is) and you've struck to the root of the situation. Otherwise

you're just clipping at the branches in a rigged system (as in rigged

against us).

Bob

December 7, 2004

Bob, well said.

Ed Kasper LAc Santa Cruz, CA.

Tuesday, December 07, 2004 2:10 AM

Digest Number 2233

Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:08:04 -0000

" Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001

Re: doctoral folly continues