Herbal Pharmacology

[Guest guest]

Mercurius,

 

....they already have that. It's called electro-acupuncture machines.

There are also voll and vega test units.

and acu-pointers.

 

I'm still perplexed about the Einstein comment.

Do you have evidence that his wife was the real physicist?

and that he was not the genius that the whole world has declared?

What't the name of the documentary you stated ?

 

 

K

 

 

 

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

magisterium_magnum wrote:

 

>

>

> If I can find someone who will invent me an electro-acupuncture device

> which

> I can program to various frequencies, I'll just use that.

> Until then, I use copper plates.

>

>

> -

> " " <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>>

> To:

<Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>

> >

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:01 PM

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> > Right on target, Martha. . .

> >

> >

> > On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Martha Cooley wrote:

> >

> >> Electroherbalism!?!?!?!?!?!

> >> I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!!

> >>

> >> Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort

> >> our patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

> >> Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these

> >> modalities undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our

> >> medicine, and can become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging

> >> deeeper and studying more.

> >>

> >> The great beauty of Chinese medicine is that it is an ecological

> >> medicine, with a theory based on the obeservation of natural rythms. The

>

> >> great challenge of the doctor is to see and interpret these and their

> >> reverberations into patients.

> >>

> >> To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very

> place

> >> where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a

> formula,

> >> by touch, by meditation.

> >> And the neologism 'electro-herbalism' is just plain wrong... i want

> >> nothing to do with it. Herbs are Wood drawing Water up to Fire,

> producing

> >> steam that rains onto the Earth and goes back down to Water... they

> >> should have nothing to do with EMF's...

> >>

> >> If you are getting great results, great... but i certainly hope you are

> >> not advertizing this as Chinese medicine?!?!

> >>

> >> ________________________________

> >> Mercurius Trismegistus

<magisterium_magnum<magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net>

> >

> >> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> >> Wed, April 28, 2010 10:19:37 PM

> >> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

> >>

> >>

> >> I'd love to try a Scenar. I've had amazing success with

> electroherbalism.

> >> www.electroherbalis m.com

> >>

> >> -

> >> " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>

> >> <traditional_ chinese_medicine >

> >> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:08 PM

> >> RE: Herbal Pharmacology

> >>

> >> >

> >> > Nice to hear success with your treatment plan. I am also interested in

> >> > Scenar and wonder about courses, machine, etc. This is what I think

> >> > many

> >> > of us are hoping to glean some aspect(s) of treatment plan that work

> >> > well

> >> > together and how to pull it off. I am making a huge effort to expand

> my

> >> > knowledge base.

> >> >

> >> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

> >> > don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

> >> > Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:06:40 -0500

> >> > RE: Herbal Pharmacology

> >>

> >>

[Guest guest]

K,

 

Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

/ JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

 

Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, ²¹É³ءËby ren min wei sheng

publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

versions of these texts.

 

Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

perception?

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john

kokko

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

Jason,

Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

version,

without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

 

This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

medicine

and traditional medicine?

 

K

[Guest guest]

Martha said:

I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!!

 

Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort our

patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

 

Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities

undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can

become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeper and studying

more.

 

Joe sez:

So very, very well put - I wish I had said that

 

I particularly like:

become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeper and studying

more...

It seems that there are quite a few that think that Chinese medicine is so

simple and shallow that they can learn it all in a couple of short years of

school.

 

 

Mercurius said:

They don't let us use anything but TCM in the student clinic.

 

Joe sez:

....because you are supposed to be learning to treat people with Chinese

medicine?!?!

It makes me wonder....

why are you even in CM school if you want to do the things on this website?

do you simply seek to use our license designation for your personal gain?

 

Martha said

To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place

where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula, by

touch, by meditation.

 

so beautiful

so well crafted

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Kokko

good points

 

K

This points to a larger question... what's the difference between

classical medicine and traditional medicine?

 

Stephen

Interesting question - does it start with a definition of the

terms?

Is Classical Chinese medicine defined as a style of practice from

the " classical " period? If so, what time period are we talking

about?

 

By " traditional " medicine are you referring to TCM as a style, or

something else?

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 07:59 -0600, " "

wrote:

 

 

K,

Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early

classes (in

TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL.

However in

advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in

classics e.g. SHL

/ JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes?

Obviously

some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We

should not

compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM

education

in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you

look at the

textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei

sheng

publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease

classic

texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re

bing pian, fu

xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have

English

versions of these texts.

Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note

medicine is

IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So

I don't

understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an

English

perception?

-Jason

 

[1]Chinese Medicine

@

[[2]Chinese Medicine ] On

Behalf Of john

kokko

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

[3]Chinese Medicine

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

Jason,

Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff

notes "

version,

without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

K

 

 

References

 

1. Chinese Medicine%40

2. Chinese Medicine%40

3. Chinese Medicine%40

4.

?subject=RE:%20TCM%20-%20Herbal%20Pharmaco\

logy

5.

Chinese Medicine ?subject=RE:%20TCM%20-%20Herb\

al%20Pharmacology

6.

Chinese Medicine/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxb2x\

qM2Q4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0lkAzM4NzM\

xBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw--?act=reply & messageNum=38731

7.

Chinese Medicine/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGR\

zdW1wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2x\

rA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw--

8.

Chinese Medicine/message/38571;_ylc=X3\

oDMTM2YzVjNGZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0\

lkAzM4NzMxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4NwR0cGNJZAMzODU3MQ--

9.

Chinese Medicine/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJm\

cTM1cmFuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwE\

c2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyNzI1NDk1ODc-?o=6

10.

Chinese Medicine;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcnJjYzlx\

BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Zn\

aHAEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw--

11. http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/

12. http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

13.

14.

http://us.ard./SIG=15rlkak9k/M=493064.13983314.13965207.13298430/D=grph\

ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\

6c0d6/B=GFv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6060255/R=0/S\

IG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar./?.cpdl=grpj

15.

http://us.ard./SIG=15r3nvjkt/M=493064.13814537.13965224.10835568/D=grph\

ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\

6c0d6/B=GVv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6042764/R=0/S\

IG=11jbo19n3/*http://advision.webevents./momconnection

16.

http://us.ard./SIG=15r0e7eqc/M=493064.14012770.13963757.13298430/D=grph\

ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\

6c0d6/B=Glv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6015306/R=0/S\

IG=11vlkvigg/*http://advision.webevents./hobbiesandactivitieszone/

17.

/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOTV0N2J0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5Nz\

cEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjcyNTQ5NTg3

18.

Chinese Medicine-traditional ?subject=Change%2\

0Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional

19.

Chinese Medicine-digest ?subject=Email%20Deliv\

ery:%20Digest

20.

Chinese Medicine- ?subject=Unsubscr\

ibe

21.

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

So how do we justify usage of estim, pachi-pachi or ion pumping cords? Are

these not based, more or less, on modern concepts?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

marthacooleylac

Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:23:58 -0700

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Electroherbalism!?!?!?!?!?!

 

I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!!

 

 

 

Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort our

patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

 

Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities

undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can become

an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeeper and studying more.

 

 

 

The great beauty of Chinese medicine is that it is an ecological medicine, with

a theory based on the obeservation of natural rythms. The great challenge of the

doctor is to see and interpret these and their reverberations into patients.

 

 

 

To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place where

we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula, by touch, by

meditation.

 

And the neologism 'electro-herbalism' is just plain wrong... i want nothing to

do with it. Herbs are Wood drawing Water up to Fire, producing steam that rains

onto the Earth and goes back down to Water... they should have nothing to do

with EMF's...

 

 

 

If you are getting great results, great... but i certainly hope you are not

advertizing this as Chinese medicine?!?!

 

 

 

________________________________

 

Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

 

Chinese Medicine

 

Wed, April 28, 2010 10:19:37 PM

 

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

I'd love to try a Scenar. I've had amazing success with electroherbalism.

 

www.electroherbalis m.com

 

 

 

-

 

" mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>

 

<traditional_ chinese_medicine >

 

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:08 PM

 

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

>

 

> Nice to hear success with your treatment plan. I am also interested in

 

> Scenar and wonder about courses, machine, etc. This is what I think many

 

> of us are hoping to glean some aspect(s) of treatment plan that work well

 

> together and how to pull it off. I am making a huge effort to expand my

 

> knowledge base.

 

>

 

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> traditional_ chinese_medicine

 

> don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

 

> Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:06:40 -0500

 

> RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

notes " addition of TCM

and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

China,

that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

obligatory there.

 

So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or

Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

SHZBL or Wen bing.

One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

the " cliff notes " version.

 

Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

 

Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

" cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

 

K

 

 

 

2010/4/29

 

>

>

> K,

>

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

>

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

> textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

> versions of these texts.

>

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

> perception?

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>]

> On Behalf Of john

> kokko

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> Jason,

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

> version,

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

>

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

> medicine

> and traditional medicine?

>

> K

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Stephen,

these terms " classical " and " traditional " are not clearly defined within our

medicine,

either in time scope or in schools of thought, but what I've gleaned from

context is that

the classical period is anywhere from Nei jing (Han dynasty) through Sun Si

Miao (Tang dyansty) and in some eyes, extending this to Li Shi Zhen (Ming

dynasty) and Wen bing thinkers (Qing dynasty)...

but I don't think that the 20th century is considered part of the

" classical " period.

Mao's reintroduction of Chinese medicine into mainstream practice might be

considered the beginning of TCM or " traditional " Chinese medicine.

 

If we look at it textually, I would consider everything from the Nei jing

through the Zhen jiu da cheng as classical acupuncture and the Shen nong

ben cao jing through Wen bing as classical herbalism.

Others might disagree, but I think this is inclusive enough to cover the

most important schools.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

K

 

 

 

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:31 AM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

 

>

>

> Kokko

> good points

>

>

> K

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between

> classical medicine and traditional medicine?

>

> Stephen

> Interesting question - does it start with a definition of the

> terms?

> Is Classical Chinese medicine defined as a style of practice from

> the " classical " period? If so, what time period are we talking

> about?

>

> By " traditional " medicine are you referring to TCM as a style, or

> something else?

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

> www.shanghanlunseminars.com

>

>

> On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 07:59 -0600, " "

> < <%40Chinese Medicine>>

> wrote:

>

> K,

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early

> classes (in

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL.

> However in

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in

> classics e.g. SHL

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes?

> Obviously

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We

> should not

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM

> education

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you

> look at the

> textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei

> sheng

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease

> classic

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re

> bing pian, fu

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have

> English

> versions of these texts.

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note

> medicine is

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So

> I don't

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an

> English

> perception?

> -Jason

>

> [1]Chinese Medicine

> @

>

[[2]Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi\

cine%40>]

> On

> Behalf Of john

> kokko

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

> To:

[3]Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40y\

ahoogroups.com>

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

> Jason,

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff

> notes "

> version,

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

> K

>

> References

>

> 1.

Chinese Medicine%40<Traditional_Chinese_Medici\

ne%2540>

> 2.

Chinese Medicine%40<Traditional_Chinese_Medici\

ne%2540>

> 3.

Chinese Medicine%40<Traditional_Chinese_Medici\

ne%2540>

> 4. <%40Chinese Medicine>

> ?subject=RE:%20TCM%20-%20Herbal%20Pharmacology

> 5.

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\

%40>

> ?subject=RE:%20TCM%20-%20Herbal%20Pharmacology

> 6.

>

Chinese Medicine/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxb2x\

qM2Q4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0lkAzM4NzM\

xBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw--?act=reply & messageNum=38731

> 7.

>

Chinese Medicine/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGR\

zdW1wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2x\

rA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw--

> 8.

>

Chinese Medicine/message/38571;_ylc=X3\

oDMTM2YzVjNGZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0\

lkAzM4NzMxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4NwR0cGNJZAMzODU3MQ--

> 9.

>

Chinese Medicine/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJm\

cTM1cmFuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwE\

c2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyNzI1NDk1ODc-?o=6

> 10.

>

Chinese Medicine;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcnJjYzlx\

BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Zn\

aHAEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw--

> 11. http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/

> 12. http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

> 13.

> 14.

>

http://us.ard./SIG=15rlkak9k/M=493064.13983314.13965207.13298430/D=grph\

ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\

6c0d6/B=GFv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6060255/R=0/S\

IG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar./?.cpdl=grpj

> 15.

>

http://us.ard./SIG=15r3nvjkt/M=493064.13814537.13965224.10835568/D=grph\

ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\

6c0d6/B=GVv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6042764/R=0/S\

IG=11jbo19n3/*http://advision.webevents./momconnection

> 16.

>

http://us.ard./SIG=15r0e7eqc/M=493064.14012770.13963757.13298430/D=grph\

ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\

6c0d6/B=Glv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6015306/R=0/S\

IG=11vlkvigg/*http://advision.webevents./hobbiesandactivitieszone/

> 17.

>

/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOTV0N2J0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5Nz\

cEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjcyNTQ5NTg3

> 18.

Chinese Medicine-traditional <Traditional_Chin\

ese_Medicine-traditional%40>

> ?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional

> 19.

Chinese Medicine-digest <Traditional_Chinese_M\

edicine-digest%40>

> ?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest

> 20.

Chinese Medicine- <Traditional_Chin\

ese_Medicine-%40>

> ?subject=Un

> 21.

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

John,

 

You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So

how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted

on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is

China not also having a crisis in CM education?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

johnkokko

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason,

 

I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

 

notes " addition of TCM

 

and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

 

China,

 

that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

 

obligatory there.

 

 

 

So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or

 

Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

 

a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

 

between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

 

well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

 

SHZBL or Wen bing.

 

One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

 

version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

 

DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

 

the " cliff notes " version.

 

 

 

Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

 

gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

 

is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

 

a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

 

 

 

Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

 

I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

 

" cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

2010/4/29

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

> K,

 

>

 

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

 

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

 

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

 

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

 

>

 

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

 

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

 

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

 

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

 

> textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

 

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

 

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

 

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

 

> versions of these texts.

 

>

 

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

 

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

 

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

 

> perception?

 

>

 

> -Jason

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

 

>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>]

 

> On Behalf Of john

 

> kokko

 

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

 

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

 

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

>

 

> Jason,

 

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

 

> version,

 

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

 

>

 

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

 

> medicine

 

> and traditional medicine?

 

>

 

> K

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

 

""

 

 

 

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I would like to say a few things about the Chinese medicine program at CMU,

Taiwan. There are two tracts for students, one is the post baccalaureate program

and the other is the regular 7 year bachelors program, or 8 year combined

western and program. And yes you only get a bachelors degree

after 8 years! If you do a search on the internet for CMU’s curriculum you

will see that all the classics are covered and when I say classics I mean the

Huandi Neijing, SHL, JGYL, Wenbing. The classes are grueling, and the exams are

insane. I’m sure if the same requirements were implemented in US schools,

Students would revolt. My education was not anything compared to what these

students go thru.

Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the

different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic and

they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young kids

memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete books, and

I hope I don’t get this “pathetic†typical western reply that Chinese

students memorize but they can’t articulate or employ what they memorize. As

far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are dead in China, maybe

is true of China, well I would not put to much stock unless you have a very

broad perspective of the situation which I have to say not many westerners do.

My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes

 

--- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

John,

 

You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So

how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on

Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China

not also having a crisis in CM education?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason,

 

I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

 

notes " addition of TCM

 

and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

 

China,

 

that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

 

obligatory there.

 

 

 

So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or

 

Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

 

a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

 

between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

 

well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

 

SHZBL or Wen bing.

 

One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

 

version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

 

DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

 

the " cliff notes " version.

 

 

 

Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

 

gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

 

is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

 

a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

 

 

 

Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

 

I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

 

" cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

2010/4/29 <@chinesemed icinedoc. com>

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

> K,

 

>

 

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

 

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

 

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

 

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

 

>

 

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

 

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

 

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

 

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

 

> textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

 

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

 

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

 

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

 

> versions of these texts.

 

>

 

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

 

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

 

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

 

> perception?

 

>

 

> -Jason

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

> [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>]

 

> On Behalf Of john

 

> kokko

 

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

 

> <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

>

 

> Jason,

 

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

 

> version,

 

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

 

>

 

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

 

> medicine

 

> and traditional medicine?

 

>

 

> K

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

 

""

 

 

 

www.turtleclinic. com

 

www.tcmreview. com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more opportunity

to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one can study and

learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than that is available.

If you want to focus on warm disease then that is available. IMO, it is all TCM.

But yes probably around 50% do not undertake further deep study and never

practice. But that is besides the point.

 

 

 

Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few classes on

classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could it now be? But

we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope of TCM and the

higher levels available.

 

 

 

Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is 45

hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily rack up

150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 hours, but

intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There really is a big

difference between something like this and some CEU weekend course.

 

 

 

Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) for

around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 hours. Just

because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM does not value

it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied with Arnaud, 1

weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser

Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

John,

 

You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So

how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on

Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China

not also having a crisis in CM education?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason,

 

I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

 

notes " addition of TCM

 

and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

 

China,

 

that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

 

obligatory there.

 

 

 

So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, Korea

or

 

Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

 

a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

 

between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

 

well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

 

SHZBL or Wen bing.

 

One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

 

version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

 

DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

 

the " cliff notes " version.

 

 

 

Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

 

gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

 

is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

 

a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

 

 

 

Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

 

I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

 

" cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

2010/4/29 <

<%40Chinese Medicine> >

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

> K,

 

>

 

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

 

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

 

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

 

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

 

>

 

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

 

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

 

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

 

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

 

> textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

 

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

 

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

 

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

 

> versions of these texts.

 

>

 

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

 

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

 

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

 

> perception?

 

>

 

> -Jason

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

> [Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>]

 

> On Behalf Of john

 

> kokko

 

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

 

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

>

 

> Jason,

 

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

 

> version,

 

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

 

>

 

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

 

> medicine

 

> and traditional medicine?

 

>

 

> K

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

 

""

 

 

 

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

Did you take a weekend class with Arnaud, (Craig Mitchell and Dan Bensky?)

in Boulder a couple of years ago?

That was your experience a couple of years ago.

 

Today, Arnaud teaches 8 clock hours (9-1, 2-6pm) on Saturdays and 7 clock

hours (9-12, 2-6) on Sundays

(15 hours/ week). The second day has a long lunch, so it's 7 hours, not

8.

So, again, that's 9 weekends x 15 hours, but still not enough.

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:38 AM, <

> wrote:

 

>

>

> Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more

> opportunity to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one

> can study and learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than

> that is available. If you want to focus on warm disease then that is

> available. IMO, it is all TCM. But yes probably around 50% do not undertake

> further deep study and never practice. But that is besides the point.

>

> Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few

> classes on classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could

> it now be? But we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope

> of TCM and the higher levels available.

>

> Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is

> 45 hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily

> rack up 150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6

> hours, but intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There

> really is a big difference between something like this and some CEU weekend

> course.

>

> Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school)

> for around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45

> hours. Just because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM

> does not value it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied

> with Arnaud, 1 weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that

> is about 100 hours.

>

> -Jason

>

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>[

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>]

> On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM

>

> To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> RE: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> John,

>

> You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics.

> So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews

> posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as

> well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com><

>

Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\

>>

>

> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> <

> johnkokko%40gmail.com <johnkokko%2540gmail.com>>

> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> Jason,

>

> I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

>

> notes " addition of TCM

>

> and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

>

> China,

>

> that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

>

> obligatory there.

>

> So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China,

> Korea or

>

> Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

>

> a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

>

> between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

>

> well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

>

> SHZBL or Wen bing.

>

> One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

>

> version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

>

> DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be

> considered

>

> the " cliff notes " version.

>

> Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

>

> gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

>

> is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels

> like

>

> a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

>

> Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

>

> I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

>

> " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

>

> K

>

> 2010/4/29

<<%40Chinese Medicine><

> %40Chinese Medicine <%2540Chinese Medicine>> >

>

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > K,

>

> >

>

> > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes

> (in

>

> > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

>

> > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g.

> SHL

>

> > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

>

> >

>

> > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes?

> Obviously

>

> > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should

> not

>

> > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM

> education

>

> > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

>

>

> > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

>

> > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

>

> > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian,

> fu

>

> > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

>

> > versions of these texts.

>

> >

>

> > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine

> is

>

> > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

>

> > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

>

> > perception?

>

> >

>

> > -Jason

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com><

>

Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\

>>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>

> >

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40><

>

Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\

>>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>]

>

> > On Behalf Of john

>

> > kokko

>

> > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

>

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com><

>

Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\

>>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>

> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> >

>

> > Jason,

>

> > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

>

> > version,

>

> > without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

>

> >

>

> > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between

> classical

>

> > medicine

>

> > and traditional medicine?

>

> >

>

> > K

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> --

>

>

>

> ""

>

>

>

> www.tcmreview.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good to know he is doing more… But of course one can study any subject

biomedical integration, SHL, warm disease, LDY, QBW, YTS, DGR their whole life.

But I don’t get the point of that and comparing TCM to cliff notes.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:57 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

Jason,

Did you take a weekend class with Arnaud, (Craig Mitchell and Dan Bensky?)

in Boulder a couple of years ago?

That was your experience a couple of years ago.

 

Today, Arnaud teaches 8 clock hours (9-1, 2-6pm) on Saturdays and 7 clock

hours (9-12, 2-6) on Sundays

(15 hours/ week). The second day has a long lunch, so it's 7 hours, not

8.

So, again, that's 9 weekends x 15 hours, but still not enough.

 

K

 

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:38 AM, <

<%40Chinese Medicine> >

wrote:

 

>

>

> Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more

> opportunity to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one

> can study and learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than

> that is available. If you want to focus on warm disease then that is

> available. IMO, it is all TCM. But yes probably around 50% do not undertake

> further deep study and never practice. But that is besides the point.

>

> Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few

> classes on classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could

> it now be? But we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope

> of TCM and the higher levels available.

>

> Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is

> 45 hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily

> rack up 150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6

> hours, but intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There

> really is a big difference between something like this and some CEU weekend

> course.

>

> Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school)

> for around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45

> hours. Just because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM

> does not value it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied

> with Arnaud, 1 weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that

> is about 100 hours.

>

> -Jason

>

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>[

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>]

> On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

> RE: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> John,

>

> You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics.

> So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews

> posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as

> well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40><

>

Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\

>>

>

> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

<johnkokko%40gmail.com> <

> johnkokko%40gmail.com <johnkokko%2540gmail.com>>

> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> Jason,

>

> I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

>

> notes " addition of TCM

>

> and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

>

> China,

>

> that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

>

> obligatory there.

>

> So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China,

> Korea or

>

> Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

>

> a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

>

> between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

>

> well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

>

> SHZBL or Wen bing.

>

> One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

>

> version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

>

> DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be

> considered

>

> the " cliff notes " version.

>

> Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

>

> gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

>

> is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels

> like

>

> a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

>

> Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

>

> I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

>

> " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

>

> K

>

> 2010/4/29 <

<%40Chinese Medicine>

<%40Chinese Medicine><

> %40Chinese Medicine <%2540Chinese Medicine>> >

>

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > K,

>

> >

>

> > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes

> (in

>

> > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

>

> > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g.

> SHL

>

> > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

>

> >

>

> > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes?

> Obviously

>

> > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should

> not

>

> > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM

> education

>

> > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

>

>

> > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

>

> > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

>

> > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian,

> fu

>

> > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

>

> > versions of these texts.

>

> >

>

> > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine

> is

>

> > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

>

> > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

>

> > perception?

>

> >

>

> > -Jason

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40><

>

Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\

>>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>

> > [Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40><

>

Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\

>>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>]

>

> > On Behalf Of john

>

> > kokko

>

> > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

>

> > Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40><

>

Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\

>>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>

> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> >

>

> > Jason,

>

> > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

>

> > version,

>

> > without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

>

> >

>

> > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between

> classical

>

> > medicine

>

> > and traditional medicine?

>

> >

>

> > K

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> --

>

>

>

> ""

>

>

>

> www.tcmreview.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

Actually the issue of what they are studying is my main point. Just because it

is available does not appear to be a focus for many, we need to understand why

classical studies are so important as a profession. If about half are choosing

to undertake some courses, that is great, but really falls far short of

accessing the deeper levels. It sounds like they are struggling to see the

importance of the classics. I will do my best to get some scholarly study, with

Arnaud and others.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:38:59 -0600

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more

opportunity to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one can

study and learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than that is

available. If you want to focus on warm disease then that is available. IMO, it

is all TCM. But yes probably around 50% do not undertake further deep study and

never practice. But that is besides the point.

 

 

 

Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few classes on

classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could it now be? But

we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope of TCM and the

higher levels available.

 

 

 

Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is 45

hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily rack up

150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 hours, but

intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There really is a big

difference between something like this and some CEU weekend course.

 

 

 

Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) for

around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 hours. Just

because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM does not value

it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied with Arnaud, 1

weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser

 

Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

John,

 

 

 

You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So

how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on

Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China

not also having a crisis in CM education?

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

 

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

 

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

Jason,

 

 

 

I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

 

 

 

notes " addition of TCM

 

 

 

and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

 

 

 

China,

 

 

 

that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

 

 

 

obligatory there.

 

 

 

So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, Korea

or

 

 

 

Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

 

 

 

a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

 

 

 

between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

 

 

 

well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

 

 

 

SHZBL or Wen bing.

 

 

 

One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

 

 

 

version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

 

 

 

DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

 

 

 

the " cliff notes " version.

 

 

 

Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

 

 

 

gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

 

 

 

is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

 

 

 

a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

 

 

 

Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

 

 

 

I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

 

 

 

" cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

2010/4/29 <

<%40Chinese Medicine> >

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> K,

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

 

 

 

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

 

 

 

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

 

 

 

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

 

 

 

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

 

 

 

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

 

 

 

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

 

 

 

> textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

 

 

 

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

 

 

 

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

 

 

 

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

 

 

 

> versions of these texts.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

 

 

 

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

 

 

 

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

 

 

 

> perception?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> -Jason

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

 

 

> [Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>]

 

 

 

> On Behalf Of john

 

 

 

> kokko

 

 

 

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

 

 

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Jason,

 

 

 

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

 

 

 

> version,

 

 

 

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

 

 

 

> medicine

 

 

 

> and traditional medicine?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> K

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

""

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

That is why I referred to Heiner's interviews on this topic. I trust his

understanding of the situation. It sounds like Taiwan has a strong program. As

Taiwan is not part of China, does anyone know about how these two country's OM

education varies?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

fuentes120

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:29:56 -0700

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would like to say a few things about the Chinese medicine program at

CMU, Taiwan. There are two tracts for students, one is the post baccalaureate

program and the other is the regular 7 year bachelors program, or 8 year

combined western and program. And yes you only get a bachelors

degree after 8 years! If you do a search on the internet for CMU’s curriculum

you will see that all the classics are covered and when I say classics I mean

the Huandi Neijing, SHL, JGYL, Wenbing. The classes are grueling, and the exams

are insane. I’m sure if the same requirements were implemented in US schools,

Students would revolt. My education was not anything compared to what these

students go thru.

 

Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the

different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic and

they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young kids

memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete books, and

I hope I don’t get this “pathetic†typical western reply that Chinese

students memorize but they can’t articulate or employ what they memorize. As

far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are dead in China, maybe

is true of China, well I would not put to much stock unless you have a very

broad perspective of the situation which I have to say not many westerners do.

 

My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

 

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

John,

 

 

 

You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So

how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on

Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China

not also having a crisis in CM education?

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

 

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

 

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

Jason,

 

 

 

I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

 

 

 

notes " addition of TCM

 

 

 

and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

 

 

 

China,

 

 

 

that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

 

 

 

obligatory there.

 

 

 

So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or

 

 

 

Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

 

 

 

a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

 

 

 

between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

 

 

 

well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

 

 

 

SHZBL or Wen bing.

 

 

 

One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

 

 

 

version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

 

 

 

DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

 

 

 

the " cliff notes " version.

 

 

 

Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

 

 

 

gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

 

 

 

is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

 

 

 

a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

 

 

 

Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

 

 

 

I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

 

 

 

" cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

2010/4/29 <@chinesemed icinedoc. com>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> K,

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

 

 

 

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

 

 

 

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

 

 

 

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

 

 

 

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

 

 

 

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

 

 

 

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

 

 

 

> textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

 

 

 

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

 

 

 

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

 

 

 

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

 

 

 

> versions of these texts.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

 

 

 

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

 

 

 

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

 

 

 

> perception?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> -Jason

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

 

 

> [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>]

 

 

 

> On Behalf Of john

 

 

 

> kokko

 

 

 

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

 

 

 

> <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

 

 

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Jason,

 

 

 

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

 

 

 

> version,

 

 

 

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

 

 

 

> medicine

 

 

 

> and traditional medicine?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> K

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

""

 

 

 

www.turtleclinic. com

 

 

 

www.tcmreview. com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Stephen,

yes... the second round of taking Arnaud's courses are bringing a lot of

things together

and helping out tremendously with clinical work.

 

Jason,

I agree that one could spend their whole life learning one current in the

ocean of Chinese medicine.

When I said that TCM study is like reading " cliff notes " , I meant what we

get in the US, not in China per se.

I didn't study in China, so maybe people who did can relay their

experiences.

I do know that the Chinese have less of a problem memorizing than we do here

in America,

but it is in their language, isn't it?

Allopathic medicine is Latin / English-based. When people in other

countries learn allopathic medicine,

do they learn the Latin/ English terms? That seems fair, since that is the

universal tongue for that medical language.

 

Anyone anywhere can read the whole novel, but it seems in the US anyway,

many people want the short-cut.

That's what the whole discussion about the FPD is about.

To me, 4000 hours from point zero of Chinese medicine ( " what is Qi, xue,

jing, yin, yang?)

to getting a doctorate in this profound field is minimal.

Isn't there a 10,000 hour rule? ... it takes 10,000 hours of dedicated

study/practice to master something.

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 10:27 AM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

 

>

>

> Jason:

>

> When I studied with Arnaud, 1 weekend was about 11 hours of

> actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours.

>

> Stephen:

> That weekend was just an intro to theory and not indicative of

> the quantity of information nor the intensity of the lectures in

> Arnaud's advanced training course. Kokko has pointed out the

> correct amount of lecture and there is an expectation of about

> 45-60 hours of study per month to go with the 15 hours of

> lecture.

>

> There is now a clnical training portion for those who have gotten

> deep enough into the didactics. Really impressive results!

>

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

> www.shanghanlunseminars.com

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software

> or over the web

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gabe,

Always good to hear from you. ... as you've pointed out, there are rigorous

programs in the classics in Taiwan and China. I know, for example, Feng Ye, who

co-compiled the Practical Dictionary of CM with Nigel Wiseman, has basically

memorized the Shang Han Lun and Jin Gui Yao Lue and written great commentaries.

However, from your perspective, how has this translated out into clinical

practice on the mainland, especially acupuncture/moxa? Much of what gets into

the Chinese journals or over here is rather formulaic.

 

We are just at the beginning of the Chinese medicine phenomenon in the West,

and I for one am concerned that we are able to keep the branches connected to

the trunk and roots of the tree, otherwise I fear we will become like

osteopathy, where only a minority actually practice according to the original

principles of that discipline, and basically practice biomedicine.

 

 

On Apr 29, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote:

 

> I would like to say a few things about the Chinese medicine program at CMU,

Taiwan. There are two tracts for students, one is the post baccalaureate program

and the other is the regular 7 year bachelors program, or 8 year combined

western and program. And yes you only get a bachelors degree

after 8 years! If you do a search on the internet for CMU’s curriculum you

will see that all the classics are covered and when I say classics I mean the

Huandi Neijing, SHL, JGYL, Wenbing. The classes are grueling, and the exams are

insane. I’m sure if the same requirements were implemented in US schools,

Students would revolt. My education was not anything compared to what these

students go thru.

> Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the

different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic and

they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young kids

memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete books, and

I hope I don’t get this “pathetic†typical western reply that Chinese

students memorize but they can’t articulate or employ what they memorize. As

far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are dead in China, maybe

is true of China, well I would not put to much stock unless you have a very

broad perspective of the situation which I have to say not many westerners do.

> My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes

>

> --- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

> RE: Herbal Pharmacology

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM

>

>

>

> John,

>

> You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So

how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on

Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China

not also having a crisis in CM education?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

>

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> Jason,

>

> I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

>

> notes " addition of TCM

>

> and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

>

> China,

>

> that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

>

> obligatory there.

>

> So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or

>

> Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

>

> a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

>

> between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

>

> well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

>

> SHZBL or Wen bing.

>

> One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

>

> version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

>

> DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

>

> the " cliff notes " version.

>

> Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

>

> gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

>

> is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

>

> a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

>

> Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

>

> I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

>

> " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

>

> K

>

> 2010/4/29 <@chinesemed icinedoc. com>

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > K,

>

> >

>

> > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

>

> > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

>

> > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

>

> > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

>

> >

>

> > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

>

> > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

>

> > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

>

> > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

>

> > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

>

> > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

>

> > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

>

> > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

>

> > versions of these texts.

>

> >

>

> > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

>

> > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

>

> > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

>

> > perception?

>

> >

>

> > -Jason

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> > [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>]

>

> > On Behalf Of john

>

> > kokko

>

> > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

>

> > <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> >

>

> > Jason,

>

> > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

>

> > version,

>

> > without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

>

> >

>

> > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

>

> > medicine

>

> > and traditional medicine?

>

> >

>

> > K

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> --

>

>

>

> ""

>

> www.turtleclinic. com

>

> www.tcmreview. com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Gabriel, I totally agree with your rejection of the insulting idea that rote

learning in asia leads to some kind of particularly asian stupidity. Rote

learning is an essential requirement for maintaining the integrity of our

medicine. One of the reasons we see so much (confused) mish-mash in Chinese

Medicine in western countries is because of our lack of rote (and therefore

solid and instantaneous recall in) memorisation.

 I think I may disagree with your comment about english speaking

websites/classical CM dying: Heiner Fruehauf, as an example, is a fully fledged

scholar physician who claims that the core health of classical CM is not

great. Certain highly placed Chinese nationals agree as well. Both my teachers

are in agreement about this as well.

 While I am always encouraged to hear that programs such as the one you mention

are so rigorous, we need more than that to preserve the health of our medicine.

 Your thoughts?

 

 Hugo

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Gabriel Fuentes <fuentes120

Chinese Medicine

Thu, 29 April, 2010 12:29:56

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the

different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic and

they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young kids

memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete books, and

I hope I don’t get this “pathetic†typical western reply that Chinese

students memorize but they can’t articulate or employ what they memorize. As

far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are dead in China, maybe

is true of China, well I would not put to much stock unless you have a very

broad perspective of the situation which I have to say not many westerners do.

My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes

 

--- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> wrote:

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

traditional_ chinese_medicine

Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM

 

 

 

John,

 

You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So

how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on

Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China

not also having a crisis in CM education?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

Jason,

 

I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

 

notes " addition of TCM

 

and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

 

China,

 

that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

 

obligatory there.

 

So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or

 

Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

 

a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

 

between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

 

well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

 

SHZBL or Wen bing.

 

One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

 

version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

 

DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

 

the " cliff notes " version.

 

Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

 

gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

 

is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

 

a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

 

Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

 

I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

 

" cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

 

K

 

2010/4/29 <@chineseme d icinedoc. com>

 

>

 

>

 

> K,

 

>

 

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

 

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

 

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

 

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

 

>

 

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

 

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

 

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

 

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

 

> textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

 

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

 

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

 

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

 

> versions of these texts.

 

>

 

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

 

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

 

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

 

> perception?

 

>

 

> -Jason

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

> [Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>]

 

> On Behalf Of john

 

> kokko

 

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

 

> <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

>

 

> Jason,

 

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

 

> version,

 

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

 

>

 

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

 

> medicine

 

> and traditional medicine?

 

>

 

> K

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

--

 

 

 

""

 

www.turtleclinic. com

 

www.tcmreview. com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ok.. I agree 100%...

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john

kokko

 

When I said that TCM study is like reading " cliff notes " , I meant what we

get in the US, not in China per se.

[Guest guest]

I second Z’ev’s concern. However there are people doing all sorts of things

on China. Take Huang Huang for example. If you look and can read Chinese you can

find anything you want.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:57 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

Gabe,

Always good to hear from you. ... as you've pointed out, there are rigorous

programs in the classics in Taiwan and China. I know, for example, Feng Ye, who

co-compiled the Practical Dictionary of CM with Nigel Wiseman, has basically

memorized the Shang Han Lun and Jin Gui Yao Lue and written great commentaries.

However, from your perspective, how has this translated out into clinical

practice on the mainland, especially acupuncture/moxa? Much of what gets into

the Chinese journals or over here is rather formulaic.

 

We are just at the beginning of the Chinese medicine phenomenon in the West, and

I for one am concerned that we are able to keep the branches connected to the

trunk and roots of the tree, otherwise I fear we will become like osteopathy,

where only a minority actually practice according to the original principles of

that discipline, and basically practice biomedicine.

 

 

On Apr 29, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote:

 

> I would like to say a few things about the Chinese medicine program at CMU,

Taiwan. There are two tracts for students, one is the post baccalaureate program

and the other is the regular 7 year bachelors program, or 8 year combined

western and program. And yes you only get a bachelors degree

after 8 years! If you do a search on the internet for CMU’s curriculum you

will see that all the classics are covered and when I say classics I mean the

Huandi Neijing, SHL, JGYL, Wenbing. The classes are grueling, and the exams are

insane. I’m sure if the same requirements were implemented in US schools,

Students would revolt. My education was not anything compared to what these

students go thru.

> Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the

different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic and

they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young kids

memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete books, and

I hope I don’t get this “pathetic†typical western reply that Chinese

students memorize but they can’t articulate or employ what they memorize. As

far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are dead in China, maybe

is true of China, well I would not put to much stock unless you have a very

broad perspective of the situation which I have to say not many westerners do.

> My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes

>

> --- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

<naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com> > wrote:

>

> mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com>

>

> RE: Herbal Pharmacology

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

> Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM

>

>

>

> John,

>

> You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So

how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on

Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China

not also having a crisis in CM education?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

>

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> Jason,

>

> I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

>

> notes " addition of TCM

>

> and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

>

> China,

>

> that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

>

> obligatory there.

>

> So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or

>

> Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

>

> a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

>

> between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

>

> well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

>

> SHZBL or Wen bing.

>

> One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

>

> version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

>

> DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

>

> the " cliff notes " version.

>

> Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

>

> gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

>

> is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

>

> a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

>

> Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

>

> I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

>

> " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

>

> K

>

> 2010/4/29 <@chinesemed icinedoc. com>

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > K,

>

> >

>

> > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

>

> > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

>

> > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

>

> > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

>

> >

>

> > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

>

> > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

>

> > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

>

> > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

>

> > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

>

> > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

>

> > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

>

> > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

>

> > versions of these texts.

>

> >

>

> > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

>

> > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

>

> > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

>

> > perception?

>

> >

>

> > -Jason

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> > [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>]

>

> > On Behalf Of john

>

> > kokko

>

> > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

>

> > <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> >

>

> > Jason,

>

> > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

>

> > version,

>

> > without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

>

> >

>

> > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

>

> > medicine

>

> > and traditional medicine?

>

> >

>

> > K

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> --

>

>

>

> ""

>

> www.turtleclinic. com

>

> www.tcmreview. com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mike,

 

 

 

At the Beginning of a curriculum it is not reasonable to spend a great deal of

time studying classical texts. There is just way too much material to cover.

Furthermore, I think studying classical texts is not the only thing of

importance. Pre-modern texts, modern physicians, Western medical integration, or

preparations, biomedicine, pharmacology, etc. etc. are all important topics and

should be given equal weight. In the upper-level part of the curriculum one can

choose to focus on whatever they like. Honestly, you can practice a very high

level medicine without spending all your time studying something like the SHL.

That is the beauty of TCM, there are many roads...

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser

Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:27 AM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason,

 

Actually the issue of what they are studying is my main point. Just because it

is available does not appear to be a focus for many, we need to understand why

classical studies are so important as a profession. If about half are choosing

to undertake some courses, that is great, but really falls far short of

accessing the deeper levels. It sounds like they are struggling to see the

importance of the classics. I will do my best to get some scholarly study, with

Arnaud and others.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<%40Chinese Medicine>

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:38:59 -0600

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more opportunity

to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one can study and

learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than that is available.

If you want to focus on warm disease then that is available. IMO, it is all TCM.

But yes probably around 50% do not undertake further deep study and never

practice. But that is besides the point.

 

 

 

Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few classes on

classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could it now be? But

we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope of TCM and the

higher levels available.

 

 

 

Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is 45

hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily rack up

150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 hours, but

intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There really is a big

difference between something like this and some CEU weekend course.

 

 

 

Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) for

around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 hours. Just

because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM does not value

it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied with Arnaud, 1

weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

[Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> ] On Behalf Of mike

Bowser

 

Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

 

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

John,

 

 

 

You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So

how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on

Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China

not also having a crisis in CM education?

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

<johnkokko%40gmail.com>

 

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

 

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

Jason,

 

 

 

I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

 

 

 

notes " addition of TCM

 

 

 

and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

 

 

 

China,

 

 

 

that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

 

 

 

obligatory there.

 

 

 

So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, Korea

or

 

 

 

Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

 

 

 

a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

 

 

 

between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

 

 

 

well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

 

 

 

SHZBL or Wen bing.

 

 

 

One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

 

 

 

version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

 

 

 

DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

 

 

 

the " cliff notes " version.

 

 

 

Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

 

 

 

gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

 

 

 

is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

 

 

 

a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

 

 

 

Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

 

 

 

I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

 

 

 

" cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

2010/4/29 <

<%40Chinese Medicine>

<%40Chinese Medicine> >

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> K,

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

 

 

 

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

 

 

 

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

 

 

 

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

 

 

 

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

 

 

 

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

 

 

 

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

 

 

 

> textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

 

 

 

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

 

 

 

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

 

 

 

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

 

 

 

> versions of these texts.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

 

 

 

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

 

 

 

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

 

 

 

> perception?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> -Jason

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

 

 

> [Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>]

 

 

 

> On Behalf Of john

 

 

 

> kokko

 

 

 

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

 

 

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Jason,

 

 

 

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

 

 

 

> version,

 

 

 

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

 

 

 

> medicine

 

 

 

> and traditional medicine?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> K

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

""

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have to say you have some very interesting ideas. Answer me this, who came

up with the theory of relativity? Oh wait, don't they also call it " the

Einstein theory of relativity " ...

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Mercurius

Trismegistus

Thursday, April 29, 2010 2:28 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

You can adjust electro-acupuncture machines. But you can't tune in (or

program) specific frequencies like you can on a Rife machine or an

Electroherbalism machine.

I'm not saying his wife was " the " real physicist. I have no idea about

that. I'm saying that she was " a " real physicist.

Einstein was a patent clerk who failed math. Everyone says, " He didn't do

physics as well as anyone, but he just throught more creatively. " LOL.

Please.

http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/

http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/milevastory/index.htm

Like I stated before. Einstein had alot of good things to say. But his

theories weren't one of them. Nor were they orginal ideas.

 

-

" " <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> >

<Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> >

Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:44 AM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

> Mercurius,

>

> ...they already have that. It's called electro-acupuncture machines.

> There are also voll and vega test units.

> and acu-pointers.

>

> I'm still perplexed about the Einstein comment.

> Do you have evidence that his wife was the real physicist?

> and that he was not the genius that the whole world has declared?

> What't the name of the documentary you stated ?

>

>

> K

>

>

>

> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

> magisterium_magnum <magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net> >

wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes there is a lot to learn but many of us have agreed that our master program

was not taught at that level rigor.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:28:53 -0600

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

 

 

At the Beginning of a curriculum it is not reasonable to spend a great deal of

time studying classical texts. There is just way too much material to cover.

Furthermore, I think studying classical texts is not the only thing of

importance. Pre-modern texts, modern physicians, Western medical integration, or

preparations, biomedicine, pharmacology, etc. etc. are all important topics and

should be given equal weight. In the upper-level part of the curriculum one can

choose to focus on whatever they like. Honestly, you can practice a very high

level medicine without spending all your time studying something like the SHL.

That is the beauty of TCM, there are many roads...

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser

 

Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:27 AM

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

Jason,

 

 

 

Actually the issue of what they are studying is my main point. Just because it

is available does not appear to be a focus for many, we need to understand why

classical studies are so important as a profession. If about half are choosing

to undertake some courses, that is great, but really falls far short of

accessing the deeper levels. It sounds like they are struggling to see the

importance of the classics. I will do my best to get some scholarly study, with

Arnaud and others.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

<%40Chinese Medicine>

 

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:38:59 -0600

 

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more opportunity

to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one can study and

learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than that is available.

If you want to focus on warm disease then that is available. IMO, it is all TCM.

But yes probably around 50% do not undertake further deep study and never

practice. But that is besides the point.

 

 

 

Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few classes on

classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could it now be? But

we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope of TCM and the

higher levels available.

 

 

 

Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is 45

hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily rack up

150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 hours, but

intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There really is a big

difference between something like this and some CEU weekend course.

 

 

 

Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) for

around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 hours. Just

because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM does not value

it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied with Arnaud, 1

weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

[Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> ] On Behalf Of mike

Bowser

 

 

 

Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

 

 

 

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

John,

 

 

 

You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So

how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on

Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China

not also having a crisis in CM education?

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

 

 

johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

<johnkokko%40gmail.com>

 

 

 

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

 

 

 

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

Jason,

 

 

 

I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

 

 

 

notes " addition of TCM

 

 

 

and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

 

 

 

China,

 

 

 

that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

 

 

 

obligatory there.

 

 

 

So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, Korea

or

 

 

 

Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

 

 

 

a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

 

 

 

between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

 

 

 

well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

 

 

 

SHZBL or Wen bing.

 

 

 

One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

 

 

 

version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

 

 

 

DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

 

 

 

the " cliff notes " version.

 

 

 

Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

 

 

 

gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

 

 

 

is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

 

 

 

a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

 

 

 

Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

 

 

 

I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

 

 

 

" cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

2010/4/29 <

<%40Chinese Medicine>

<%40Chinese Medicine> >

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> K,

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

 

 

 

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

 

 

 

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

 

 

 

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

 

 

 

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

 

 

 

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

 

 

 

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

 

 

 

> textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

 

 

 

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

 

 

 

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

 

 

 

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

 

 

 

> versions of these texts.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

 

 

 

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

 

 

 

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

 

 

 

> perception?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> -Jason

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

 

 

> [Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>]

 

 

 

> On Behalf Of john

 

 

 

> kokko

 

 

 

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

 

 

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Jason,

 

 

 

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

 

 

 

> version,

 

 

 

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

 

 

 

> medicine

 

 

 

> and traditional medicine?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> K

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

""

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree. Our programs in the states need an upgrade.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser

Thursday, April 29, 2010 12:36 PM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes there is a lot to learn but many of us have agreed that our master program

was not taught at that level rigor.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<%40Chinese Medicine>

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:28:53 -0600

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

 

 

At the Beginning of a curriculum it is not reasonable to spend a great deal of

time studying classical texts. There is just way too much material to cover.

Furthermore, I think studying classical texts is not the only thing of

importance. Pre-modern texts, modern physicians, Western medical integration, or

preparations, biomedicine, pharmacology, etc. etc. are all important topics and

should be given equal weight. In the upper-level part of the curriculum one can

choose to focus on whatever they like. Honestly, you can practice a very high

level medicine without spending all your time studying something like the SHL.

That is the beauty of TCM, there are many roads...

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

[Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> ] On Behalf Of mike

Bowser

 

Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:27 AM

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

 

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

Jason,

 

 

 

Actually the issue of what they are studying is my main point. Just because it

is available does not appear to be a focus for many, we need to understand why

classical studies are so important as a profession. If about half are choosing

to undertake some courses, that is great, but really falls far short of

accessing the deeper levels. It sounds like they are struggling to see the

importance of the classics. I will do my best to get some scholarly study, with

Arnaud and others.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

<%40Chinese Medicine>

<%40Chinese Medicine>

 

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:38:59 -0600

 

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more opportunity

to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one can study and

learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than that is available.

If you want to focus on warm disease then that is available. IMO, it is all TCM.

But yes probably around 50% do not undertake further deep study and never

practice. But that is besides the point.

 

 

 

Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few classes on

classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could it now be? But

we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope of TCM and the

higher levels available.

 

 

 

Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is 45

hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily rack up

150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 hours, but

intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There really is a big

difference between something like this and some CEU weekend course.

 

 

 

Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) for

around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 hours. Just

because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM does not value

it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied with Arnaud, 1

weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

[Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40> ] On Behalf Of mike

Bowser

 

 

 

Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

 

 

 

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

John,

 

 

 

You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So

how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on

Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China

not also having a crisis in CM education?

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

 

 

johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

<johnkokko%40gmail.com> <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

 

 

 

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

 

 

 

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

Jason,

 

 

 

I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

 

 

 

notes " addition of TCM

 

 

 

and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

 

 

 

China,

 

 

 

that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

 

 

 

obligatory there.

 

 

 

So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, Korea

or

 

 

 

Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

 

 

 

a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

 

 

 

between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

 

 

 

well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

 

 

 

SHZBL or Wen bing.

 

 

 

One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

 

 

 

version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

 

 

 

DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

 

 

 

the " cliff notes " version.

 

 

 

Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

 

 

 

gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

 

 

 

is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

 

 

 

a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

 

 

 

Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

 

 

 

I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

 

 

 

" cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

2010/4/29 <

<%40Chinese Medicine>

<%40Chinese Medicine>

<%40Chinese Medicine> >

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> K,

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

 

 

 

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

 

 

 

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL

 

 

 

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously

 

 

 

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not

 

 

 

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

 

 

 

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

 

 

 

> textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病学）by ren min wei sheng

 

 

 

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

 

 

 

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu

 

 

 

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

 

 

 

> versions of these texts.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

 

 

 

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

 

 

 

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

 

 

 

> perception?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> -Jason

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

 

 

> [Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>]

 

 

 

> On Behalf Of john

 

 

 

> kokko

 

 

 

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

<Chinese Medicine%40>

 

 

 

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Jason,

 

 

 

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

 

 

 

> version,

 

 

 

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical

 

 

 

> medicine

 

 

 

> and traditional medicine?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> K

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

""

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Isn't physics about marrying mathematics with the physical world?

How is Einstein not a " real physicist " , but his wife was?

Is this a joke?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

You guys are on to something now!

 

 

 

This has been my biggest complaint with the " purists. " These folks want to

practice the medicine, unchanged, as it existed 4 or 500 or more years ago.

That is so sad, and really cheats the patient. This is also unethical. Do you

not think Hau Tuo or any of the other ancient masters would not have used the

modern diagnostics and technology if they had had access to them? Of course

they would. That's how the Wen Bing came about. Diseases changed so they

adapted with the changes and they found medicine to adapt to those changes.

Look at modern e'stim. I'll bet the " purists " that use this group also use

e'stim. But of course, that's ok for some reason. Look at metal needles, would

you go back to using stone or bone? Of course not.

 

 

 

Now permit me to explain why I think the purists are " unintentianally "

unethical.

 

 

 

Let's say that a patient comes to your office with an incurable disease, say

sarcoidosis. They have horrible lesions covering their body, their hair is

falling out in clumps because the lesions are in their scalp (these lesions

resemble raw hamburger), and they are on oxygen because these lesions have

attacked their lungs. Now as an AOM practitioner you use herbal medicine,

acupuncture, and any other traditional tools with no avail. The patient is

getting worse and will probably die within the year.

 

 

 

Now you (the practitioner) retired from the US military and you worked in

Research and development for a few years. You remember something about a

Russian scientist that came out with a medical device based on oriental medical

theory that is being used successfully in their space program. Problem is, the

technology was top secret and the US government has never been able to steel

this tecnology. Now you hear that it is no longer top secret and can be bought

on the open market since their lead scientist was able to obtain a patent.

 

 

 

Now you buy this device at great expense. And you use it on this dying patient

that has sarcoidosis. In two weeks that patient notices her hair growing back

and the lesions going away (without a scar!). After 6 weeks that patient no

longer needs oxygen. Three years later and the patient still has not had a

relapse and two others have been treated with the same response.

 

 

 

Now the " purists " don't want me to use this equipment, and the MD's sure wont

use it. So I stop using it and patients begin to die. Am I not unethical for

not using something I know would work because I want to keep my medicine " pure? "

 

 

 

I tell you the truth, if that patient dies and I have the knowledge to save them

and don't. I'm as guilty as if I had put a gun to their head and pulled the

trigger.

 

 

 

Our medicine is medicine and it is a living thing that changes and adapts to

whatever works and whatever changes in disease. If we stay " pure " , we are

killing this living medicine.

 

 

 

Just my two cents,

 

 

 

Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

magisterium_magnum

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:39:24 -0700

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

This is true. Do you think the ancients never innovated? Did they only do

what was done thousands of years before.

(I think some of the people are just mad at me for calling into question the

nature of the 6 year Masters degree.)

 

-

" mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

<Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:37 AM

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

>

> So how do we justify usage of estim, pachi-pachi or ion pumping cords?

> Are these not based, more or less, on modern concepts?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> marthacooleylac

> Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:23:58 -0700

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology> Electroherbalism!?!?!?!?!?!

>

> I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!!

>

>

>

> Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort

> our patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

>

> Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities

> undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can

> become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeeper and studying

> more.

>

>

>

> The great beauty of Chinese medicine is that it is an ecological medicine,

> with a theory based on the obeservation of natural rythms. The great

> challenge of the doctor is to see and interpret these and their

> reverberations into patients.

>

>

>

> To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place

> where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula,

> by touch, by meditation.

>

> And the neologism 'electro-herbalism' is just plain wrong... i want

> nothing to do with it. Herbs are Wood drawing Water up to Fire, producing

> steam that rains onto the Earth and goes back down to Water... they should

> have nothing to do with EMF's...

>

>

>

> If you are getting great results, great... but i certainly hope you are

> not advertizing this as Chinese medicine?!?!

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

>

> Chinese Medicine

>

> Wed, April 28, 2010 10:19:37 PM

>

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

>

>

>

>

> I'd love to try a Scenar. I've had amazing success with electroherbalism.

>

> www.electroherbalis m.com