What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

December 15, 2009

John,

You hit the nail on the head. Knowing the data of pattern discrimination,

points, channels, herbs and prescriptions needs the broader canvas of the

theoretical foundations rooted in the teachings of great physicians ancient and

modern. This is what gives meaning and inspiration to Chinese medicine.

On Dec 14, 2009, at 10:47 PM, wrote:

> I think that TCM is like looking at a pointalist painting from six inches

> off of the canvas,

> instead of taking a few steps back to see the big picture. We have all of

> the dots to memorize, repeat and all of the steps to memorize and repeat,

> without the connections and the meaning between thousands of years of

> conscious and subconscious development.

> That's why it's essential to make the classics the axis of all of our work,

> where the spokes coming off of them are up to interpretation, innovation and

> practice.

>

> K

>

> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:38 PM, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> >

> > Absolutely, I agree with you. The living stream of Chinese medicine is

> > rooted in the classical literature. But it seems in this discussion overall

> > we are seeking for a brand name for what we do, and the term " TCM " didn't

> > appear until the modern era. .

> >

> > On Dec 14, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Eric Rosenbush wrote:

> >

>

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

December 17, 2009

The problem of naming something so vast as this medicine brings to mind Ch1

of Dao De Jing (Tao Te Ching). One might surrender to the fact that the

timeless beauty and ever-blossoming diversity of our medicine simply cannot

be captured by a simple name?

(*The dao that can be named is not the eternal dao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.

Naming is the origin of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations arise from the same source.

This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.

The gateway to all understanding.

* <Stephen Mitchell's translation>

another translation, with chinese text for reference --

http://www.thetao.info/english/page1.htm)

~edith

December 18, 2009

Hi Don, Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. Its very clear

to me that you are a creative thinker. I would love to know more about how you

bill through a doctor, and in particular how you convince them to get on board

with you (eg: what do they have to gain, aside from the obvious benefit to their

patients'?). I have often thought about connecting with an MD so that we could

help each other benefit from the other's medicine. For instance, there are

times when chinese herbs for an acute condition give some people insomnia and

the herbs that would help would be too tonifying for the current condition. I

would love to have an MD around who could prescribe a sleeping pill for a week

so that we can clear up the acute condition.

If you would prefer to talk about this privately, I would love to hear from you:

heylaurag

Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407

wrote:

>

> I really did not know what I was doing until about 3 years ago. I had been

perfecting my MET/integrated medicine methodology and had treated about 1000

hours or so without any remuneration. I could not see charging a patient when I

couldn't guarantee the results. After that initial experimentation period I

could consistantly (95%+) get resolution of any pain, neuropathy, or pathology

and decided I would begin charging patients. At first I took only cash patients

and charged $250 per treatment; and I got paid, too. But I noticed I was only

getting a particular class of patient and felt that what I did should be

available to all who desired it. (at this time I was practicing in San Diego

and teaching at PCOM)

>

> In 2007 I got an opportunity to move back home to Louisiana and I took a job

offered by an MD. These folks burned me very badly and they stole money and

they tried to steal my methodology. However, what I learned from this is that I

could actually bill insurance for my treatments (that lesson cost me about

$200,000 or more). Thereafter, I teamed up with another MD and billed insurance

under his/her license; and got paid. I also got a contract to service 29

hospitals but it has taken be around 8 months to figure out how to bill. I now

have that figured out and have hired my first AOM practitioner and she has just

completed her training with me and I will put her in our first hospital. But I

have digressed a little.

>

> I was able to bill right at $500,000 my first year working by myself, but had

to have two assistants helping me. I collected 80% of my billing (which is real

good, by the way). You must also understand this. The reason hospitals do not

want acupuncture is that there is no money in it at $50 to $80 per treatment.

Hospitals are a business and they need to make money. When I treat a patient I

get a minimum of $150 up to more than $400 for some patients. The downside is

that it takes me 1 to 2.5 hours to treat one patient (now you know why I need

assistants trained in my copyrighted methodology). I am very stingy in who I

show my methodology and have a full time lawyer on my staff to take care of

contracts. I don't give it away. My patients get well in a dramatic and

profound way; even those with " irreversible " nerve damage. The results are

immediate and if a patient does not get the promised results, they do not pay.

Needless to say, I get paid. In the last year I have returned money 4 times out

of over 3000 patient visits.

>

> I now have another AOM practitioner working with me and we will see what I can

bill and collect now; however, it is yet to be seen.

>

> So folks, that's it in a nut shell. I answered this same question last year

on this same site and I doubt that I will answer it again. Hope this satisfies

you.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac

>

> P.S. As for the question " Do you use herbs? " The answer is yes. But not

nearly as often and I know longer use a compounding pharmacy. I use

teapill/patents. The methodology I use precludes my having to rely on herbs as

much, but I use them when I must. The patient must get better or I don't get

paid so I do whatever must be done to get the desired results. djs

>

> Chinese Medicine

> heylaurag

> Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:32:30 +0000

> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

>

> Hi Don, With that much education, I suspect you are in a similar position as

me--LOTS of student loans. I paid for my undergrad plus a masters in social work

from an expensive ivy league school plus the dual masters in acupuncture and

herbs with student loans. Then I was dumb enough not to start paying on it right

after I graduated (actually I couldn't afford to). So I also accumulated massive

interest. But...I really want to get a doctorate!

>

> But I do work in a very deep way with the herbs, so I am not completely

convinced that a doctorate would educate me more than my own schooling by

practicing the medicine. Any thoughts on this? Also, how do you see enough

patients to make that much money if you also practice herbs (which take time)?

Do you have employees? Do you bill insurance? How much time do you spend with

each patient? I'd like to learn from you, so I appreciate anything that you can

share.

>

> Working on taxes this year I am dismayed to discover just how little I

actually make when I take my student loan payments into consideration. But I

turn down new patients all the time because I don't feel I have the time to see

them. So I must be doing something wrong.

>

> Thanks!

>

> Laura

>

> Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407@>

wrote:

> >

> > Yes, definitions. Who defines what is being discussed? I practice integral

medicine no matter what one may believe. That's what I call it and that is what

my patients believe and that's what I do. I don't follow any " man " such a Lonny,

Master Tong, etc. I follow my own path in finding the answers to our wonderful

medicine and I make it what I will. This is what I do. If I followed a

particular man or style, then that's what I would be doing. But I practice Dr.

Snow's Acupuncture and Integrated Medical Systems.

> >

> > I make a mid-six figure income doing what I do so I'm doing something right.

I went the extra mile and earned the DAOM, MPH, MS, etc. so I am relatively

educated. And no matter what anyone says about that degree (esp. those that

haven't actually done it), we delved into the classics at a much deeper level

that the master's program. I'm a better practitioner for it. And most of all, I

have a very high success in treatment rate which is why I have a booming

practice. One is a technician until he makes the medicine his own. That applies

to martial arts as well. I've seen many so-called masters that were not because

they did not make the art a part of themselves.

> >

> > Well, these are only my opinions and I guess we all have one.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > johnkokko@

> > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:24:06 -0800

> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> > Yes... we all practice medicine,

> > but " integral " and " integrative " medicine are 2 different birds.

> >

> > Very few people practice " integral " medicine, as Lonny can elaborate on.

> > We all practice some form of " integrative " medicine, because that's what we

> > learned in schools... a combination of many styles derived from 2 millennia

> > of changes.

> > That's why I opted for " integrative Chinese medicine " being the most honest

> > and comprehensive name for what we do.

> >

> > K

> >

> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:18 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Actually, what we practice is medicine. What you appear to want defined is

> > > the style, type, or founding root of what we do. I practice integral

> > > medicine. I apply TCM/OM theory to MET and SCENAR then combine it with our

> > > TCM using specific methodology. But as f

> >

> > r as my patients are concerned, I practice medicine because they get better

> > > very quickly. Oh semantics...

> > >

> > > Don

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine

> > > johnkokko@

> > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:12:13 -0800

> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> > >

> > > Global medicine sounds too " global " ,

> > > Chinese medicine might sound too " local " .

> > > " Global " ? GCM?

> > >

> > > I actually like calling what we do Chinese medicine,

> > > because it gives credit to the myriad of tribes/clans/villages of people

> > > who

> > > developed the classics which are the foundation of

> > > Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese/European/American acupuncture and formula

> > > systems. We can break down the word " Chinese " , which is probably not

> > > sufficient to describe these originators, since even today, China

> > > geographically holds over 50 distinct ethnic groups, but it's the best

that

> > > we've got.

> > >

> > > K

> > >

> > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > How about naming our medicine modern " Global Medicine? "

> > > >

> > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > > >

> > > > Chinese Medicine

> > > > Revolution@

> > > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:18:12 +0000

> > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> > > >

> > > > John,

> > > >

> > > > I'm happy calling it Chinese medicine. But I think the real challenge is

> > > to

> > > > find a name that references it's present and future rather than its

past.

> > > > Many of the most significant advances in the medicine have been made in

> > > the

> > > > West in the last 60 years. It's a global medicine now being practiced

> > > > according to many different value systems across cultures at different

> > > > levels of development. It's interesting to consider who we are and what

> > > we

> > > > are really doing. Most of us aren't, in fact, practicing " Chinese "

> > > medicine.

> > > >

December 18, 2009

If you only perform acupuncture and internal medicine it will do you no good to

bill through a doctor since you will not make much money doing just acupuncture

and CM. That is the reason they do no want us in the hospitals. To get a

hospital or MD interested in you, you must have some type of financial track

record to present to the physician or hospital. Most of our associates cannot

produce the tax records or bank financial statements to prove this type of track

record. I can produce these documents. The only way you can get an MD or

hospital on board is through the mighty dollar. I give them a percentage. But

you must be careful how you do this because it is illegal to share percentages

in many cases. Therefore, I give a nice percentage for their billing expertise

and department. In other words, you must rent the MD's license or lease

yourself or your assistants through the MD. I have a full-time lawyer on staff

and he takes care of these things for me.

As for needing the MD for temporary presciptions, I have never used their

services in that way. However, I do refer red flag cases to them when

necessary. I also have never needed them to refer anyone to me, although that

might be nice if patients are not refering to you, although that's another

problem. My patients refer back to be in a big way. Indeed, I've had patients

come to me from Russia, Germany, Canada, Italy, Trinidad and Tobago, and many

other overseas countries along with patients coming from many states. Many also

drive 3 -4 hours within my current state to see me and they often come 2 to 3

times a week in the begining. My patients get better very quickly and very

dramatically from the first day of treatment.

I do not use just acupuncture and herbal medicine. I use integral medicine that

is my own proprietary methodology. This is what I can bill through insurance.

Mostly, the patient pays cash for the acupuncture but insurance pays the rest.

I also have a money back policy. If I can't relieve 50% or more of your pain or

active symtoms at the end of the first treatment, you don't pay one thin dime.

Surprisingly, I've only retuned money 4 times in 7 years of practice.

In summary, it probably won't do you any good to team up with an MD armed only

with the knowledge you get from our OM medical schools. However, I am looking

for AOM practitioners to train in my methodologies to place under MDs or

hospitals. The catch is, you often must be willing to move to take part in

this. The good thing is, you will not starve to death doing what I do.

Hope this helps. I am quite surprised at how few people are interested in what

I am doing. It is no wonder we are in such bad shape politically. The world is

our apple. All we have to do is simply pluck them.

Sincerely,

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine

heylaurag

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:47:39 +0000

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

Hi Don, Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. Its very clear to

me that you are a creative thinker. I would love to know more about how you bill

through a doctor, and in particular how you convince them to get on board with

you (eg: what do they have to gain, aside from the obvious benefit to their

patients'?). I have often thought about connecting with an MD so that we could

help each other benefit from the other's medicine. For instance, there are times

when chinese herbs for an acute condition give some people insomnia and the

herbs that would help would be too tonifying for the current condition. I would

love to have an MD around who could prescribe a sleeping pill for a week so that

we can clear up the acute condition.