peripheral neuropathy results question

[Guest guest]

Hi. As I understand it, and have seen it, yes the feelings of 'pins and needles'

or tingling is a good clinical sign of recovery from numbness. K1, which is

usually very sensitive can be  manipulated with good effect in that stuation, as

can seven star, and EA.

 

--- On Thu, 4/23/09, < wrote:

 

<

peripheral neuropathy results question

" TCM List " <Chinese Traditional Medicine >, " Chinese Herb

Academy " , " alumni PCOM "

<alumni

Thursday, April 23, 2009, 12:11 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi All -

 

 

 

I have a new patient with complete numbness in her feet, to the point where she

walks without confidence because she cannot feel her feet.  A little over 1 year

ago she passed out 3 days in a row (due to COPD, which has since resolved since

she stopped smoking) and hit her head each time, and has had the neuropathy

symptoms since then - originally burning and pins-and-needles pain, then lack of

sensation after a few bouts of heavy drugs.  She has also had laminectomies on

most of the vertebrae in her lumbar spine, and now has relentless low back pain,

stiffness, and soreness.

 

 

 

To be honest, I'm not sure if the laminectomies or the head injuries are the

source of her symptoms, so I decided to start with treating the low back and

feet, and then later that evening questioned doing that instead of doing a scalp

treatment.  To my surprise however, sensation in her feet returned that evening,

after just one treatment - she is now experiencing intermittent pins and

needles, which she describes as mildly uncomfortable, but no burning.

 

 

 

My question is this - is it usual for paresthesias to return, on the journey of

healing from complete numbness?  If so, can I expect her symptoms to get more

uncomfortable before they go away?  I'd never treated anyone with frank numbness

before, and I am going on the assumption that having some sensation in her feet,

even if uncomfortable, is a positive improvement over having none - but what can

we expect as we continue treatment?  If she were your patient, would you also

treat the sensory line on the scalp?

 

 

 

Thank you for your help,

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

635 S. 10th St.

 

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All -

 

I have a new patient with complete numbness in her feet, to the point where she

walks without confidence because she cannot feel her feet.  A little over 1 year

ago she passed out 3 days in a row (due to COPD, which has since resolved since

she stopped smoking) and hit her head each time, and has had the neuropathy

symptoms since then - originally burning and pins-and-needles pain, then lack of

sensation after a few bouts of heavy drugs.  She has also had laminectomies on

most of the vertebrae in her lumbar spine, and now has relentless low back pain,

stiffness, and soreness.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure if the laminectomies or the head injuries are the

source of her symptoms, so I decided to start with treating the low back and

feet, and then later that evening questioned doing that instead of doing a scalp

treatment.  To my surprise however, sensation in her feet returned that evening,

after just one treatment - she is now experiencing intermittent pins and

needles, which she describes as mildly uncomfortable, but no burning.

 

My question is this - is it usual for paresthesias to return, on the journey of

healing from complete numbness?  If so, can I expect her symptoms to get more

uncomfortable before they go away?  I'd never treated anyone with frank numbness

before, and I am going on the assumption that having some sensation in her feet,

even if uncomfortable, is a positive improvement over having none - but what can

we expect as we continue treatment?  If she were your patient, would you also

treat the sensory line on the scalp?

 

Thank you for your help,

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

a couple quick thoughts --

Test the knee and achilles reflex -- if hyper reflexive, most likely

CNS/Brain is the root of the problem. Use head/scalp treatment aggressively

and with confidence. (you could also use herbs and supplements that promote

brain microcirculation based on different dx...). if hypo reflexive, likely

due to lumbar nerve root impingement, then lumbar and JiaJi type treatments

indicated.

 

Also is it one foot or both feet? Do the symptoms follow a specific nerve

foot pathway, or depend on the position of her lumbar spine

(seated/standing, etc...)? That can help determine if it's lumbar/PNS or

Brain/CNS issue. In this case there may be both! Once you get the brain

firing correctly, you may need to deal with the pain and blockage from the

L-spine.

 

Yes, in my experience too, if the tissue has not been getting blood

nourishment and nerve stimulation, it does feel achey or have pins and

needles as the nourishment and nerve firing start to wake up. But do

consider the idea that you are waking up the brain and now there are

symptoms coming from L-spine. Test the dermatomes and myotomes to see if it

follows a specific pathway.

 

Hope it helps!

~edith

 

 

 

--

Edith Chan, L.Ac.

Doctoral Fellow

www.DanTianWellness.com

Office: 415.668.1880 - Mobile: 415.298.5324

 

 

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:11 AM, <wrote:

 

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Andrea Beth:

 

--AB-

 

My question is this - is it usual for paresthesias to return, on the

journey of healing from complete numbness? If so, can I expect her

symptoms to get more uncomfortable before they go away?

---

 

Abso100%lutely, at least in my experience.

I don't know what we would do to skip low volume blood irrigation as it slowly

starts to flood the fields, so to speak. Everything will wake up slowly. What's

important is to distinguish between nerves waking up, and pathological

sensations - burning, stabbing, constriction and so on and so forth, and just

perform the appropriate treatments.

As far as something getting " a lot worse " , that depends a lot on what we mean.

Can the tingling approach pain? Maybe, but the real issue regards whether there

was tissue damage during this period of total numbness. If there was, there may

be a significant amount of pain related to that. Again, you'll have to treat

accoridng to presentation.

If you pull diet and herbal treatment into this, it will help accelerate her

process.

 

I am curious if anyone can cause a patient to skip the intermediate stage of

tingling as qi and blood return to the area in sufficient amounts.

 

Hope that helps,

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

I'd never treated anyone with frank numbness before, and I am going on the

assumption that having some sensation in her feet, even if uncomfortable, is a

positive improvement over having none - but what can we expect as we continue

treatment? If she were your patient, would you also treat the sensory line on

the scalp?

 

Thank you for your help,

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sometimes an external lotion such hong hua oil, can help with what you are

already doing. And this may sound funny, but you might want to occasionally

leave them with a slight sensation of pain, rather than be too subtle.

--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

 

Hugo Ramiro <subincor

Re: peripheral neuropathy results question

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, April 23, 2009, 2:26 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Andrea Beth:

 

 

 

--AB-

 

 

 

My question is this - is it usual for paresthesias to return, on the

 

journey of healing from complete numbness? If so, can I expect her

 

symptoms to get more uncomfortable before they go away?

 

---

 

 

 

Abso100%lutely, at least in my experience.

 

I don't know what we would do to skip low volume blood irrigation as it slowly

starts to flood the fields, so to speak. Everything will wake up slowly. What's

important is to distinguish between nerves waking up, and pathological

sensations - burning, stabbing, constriction and so on and so forth, and just

perform the appropriate treatments.

 

As far as something getting " a lot worse " , that depends a lot on what we mean.

Can the tingling approach pain? Maybe, but the real issue regards whether there

was tissue damage during this period of total numbness. If there was, there may

be a significant amount of pain related to that. Again, you'll have to treat

accoridng to presentation.

 

If you pull diet and herbal treatment into this, it will help accelerate her

process.

 

 

 

I am curious if anyone can cause a patient to skip the intermediate stage of

tingling as qi and blood return to the area in sufficient amounts.

 

 

 

Hope that helps,

 

Hugo

 

 

 

____________ _________ _________ __

 

Hugo Ramiro

 

http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

 

http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

 

 

 

I'd never treated anyone with frank numbness before, and I am going on the

assumption that having some sensation in her feet, even if uncomfortable, is a

positive improvement over having none - but what can we expect as we continue

treatment? If she were your patient, would you also treat the sensory line on

the scalp?

 

 

 

Thank you for your help,

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

635 S. 10th St.

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi. As I understand it, and have seen it, yes the feelings of 'pins and needles'

or tingling is a good clinical sign of recovery from numbness. K1,

which is usually very sensitive can be  manipulated with good effect in

that situation, as can seven star, and EA. External rubs w a bld/qi moving

lotion can help too. And distal tx.

 

 

--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

 

Hugo Ramiro <subincor

Re: peripheral neuropathy results question

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, April 23, 2009, 2:26 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Andrea Beth:

 

 

 

--AB-

 

 

 

My question is this - is it usual for paresthesias to return, on the

 

journey of healing from complete numbness? If so, can I expect her

 

symptoms to get more uncomfortable before they go away?

 

---

 

 

 

Abso100%lutely, at least in my experience.

 

I don't know what we would do to skip low volume blood irrigation as it slowly

starts to flood the fields, so to speak. Everything will wake up slowly. What's

important is to distinguish between nerves waking up, and pathological

sensations - burning, stabbing, constriction and so on and so forth, and just

perform the appropriate treatments.

 

As far as something getting " a lot worse " , that depends a lot on what we mean.

Can the tingling approach pain? Maybe, but the real issue regards whether there

was tissue damage during this period of total numbness. If there was, there may

be a significant amount of pain related to that. Again, you'll have to treat

accoridng to presentation.

 

If you pull diet and herbal treatment into this, it will help accelerate her

process.

 

 

 

I am curious if anyone can cause a patient to skip the intermediate stage of

tingling as qi and blood return to the area in sufficient amounts.

 

 

 

Hope that helps,

 

Hugo

 

 

 

____________ _________ _________ __

 

Hugo Ramiro

 

http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

 

http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

 

 

 

I'd never treated anyone with frank numbness before, and I am going on the

assumption that having some sensation in her feet, even if uncomfortable, is a

positive improvement over having none - but what can we expect as we continue

treatment? If she were your patient, would you also treat the sensory line on

the scalp?

 

 

 

Thank you for your help,

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

635 S. 10th St.

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Herbal MedicineI recently treated a man with peripheral neuropathy plus

agonizing shooting pains down his legs. His case stemmed from Interferon

treatment for Hep C post-vietnam, so the neuropathy was something like 20+ years

old. It took about 6 months of weekly treatment, K1 plus Spleen, Bladder, Liver

and GB points and electroacupuncture on lower legs and feet; then bimonthy

treatment for another 4 months; now I see him about once every 2-3 months.

During this time I also had him taking, and he continues to take, Golden

Flower's Ji Xue formula, 4 tabs 3x/day.

 

He went from total numbness to pins and needles, and from that to becoming

ticklish. At the point when needling the sole of the foot caused pain, I stopped

sole needles and stuck to top and edges of foot. He currently has a rare

5-minute case (about once every 2 or 3 weeks) of breakthrough pain in the soles

of his feet, no pain in his legs now for more than 6 months, pretty good but not

yet perfect sensitivity on his soles - very comfortable, he says, sort of like

wearing an extra pair of socks on the bottom of his feet.

 

So yes, some discomfort is part of the re-establishment of microcirculation, and

your patient should be encouraged to look at it as a positive sign; but big pain

might mean you should change the points you're using.

 

BTW, this man had all sorts of physical problems left over from whatever

experiments he was part of during 'Nam; his torso is a mass, from nipple to

pubic bone, of scar tissue from multiple operations, and during the time I was

treating him weekly they were planning to operate again, because the tubules in

his kidneys get blocked and they go in and ream them out every so often. 3

months later, when he'd been on Ji Xue formula for about 4 months, they repeated

the tests prior to setting a date for the operation, and found NO sign of

blockage.

 

His MD's comment: " Don't tell me what you're doing, just keep doing it. "

 

Deb Marshall

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have a case of a 60 year old who had an operation on his lumbar region. He had

neuropathy and some pain just in his feet and then went and had Botox injections

in the lower back. The pain went away for two weeks and now he has excruciating

pain in the feet for which he takes a lot of painkillers. For the past 5 months

I've tried everything under the sun to relieve the pain including bleeding and

electro stem but it will only help for a few days at most. Very frustrating.

What are the ingredients of the Ji Xue formula? Their website doesn't post it on

the intro pages.

Doug

 

, " Deb Marshall " <taichideb

wrote:

>

> Chinese Herbal MedicineI recently treated a man with peripheral neuropathy plus

agonizing shooting pains down his legs. His case stemmed from Interferon

treatment for Hep C post-vietnam, so the neuropathy was something like 20+ years

old. It took about 6 months of weekly treatment, K1 plus Spleen, Bladder, Liver

and GB points and electroacupuncture on lower legs and feet; then bimonthy

treatment for another 4 months; now I see him about once every 2-3 months.

During this time I also had him taking, and he continues to take, Golden

Flower's Ji Xue formula, 4 tabs 3x/day.

>

> He went from total numbness to pins and needles, and from that to becoming

ticklish. At the point when needling the sole of the foot caused pain, I stopped

sole needles and stuck to top and edges of foot. He currently has a rare

5-minute case (about once every 2 or 3 weeks) of breakthrough pain in the soles

of his feet, no pain in his legs now for more than 6 months, pretty good but not

yet perfect sensitivity on his soles - very comfortable, he says, sort of like

wearing an extra pair of socks on the bottom of his feet.

>

> So yes, some discomfort is part of the re-establishment of microcirculation,

and your patient should be encouraged to look at it as a positive sign; but big

pain might mean you should change the points you're using.

>

> BTW, this man had all sorts of physical problems left over from whatever

experiments he was part of during 'Nam; his torso is a mass, from nipple to

pubic bone, of scar tissue from multiple operations, and during the time I was

treating him weekly they were planning to operate again, because the tubules in

his kidneys get blocked and they go in and ream them out every so often. 3

months later, when he'd been on Ji Xue formula for about 4 months, they repeated

the tests prior to setting a date for the operation, and found NO sign of

blockage.

>

> His MD's comment: " Don't tell me what you're doing, just keep doing it. "

>

> Deb Marshall

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Deb.  I especially like the doctor's comment at the end.

 

It turns out, my patient and her husband have decided to take off in their RV

next week, for points unknown, and for an indefinite period.  I doubt I will

ever see her again.

 

For the sake of academic interest, and to answer the questions of those who

asked, here's some more info on her meds, history, constitution, diagnosis,

etc.  Unfortunately, her western medical diagnoses are all over the place and

unclear.  Example:  She was on depakote for seizures for 15 years, and weaned

off 4 weeks ago because she " does not have a seizure disorder " .  She was

diagnosed instead with COPD causing fainting, which " went away " after she

stopped smoking her one-pack-a-day, one year ago.  The fainting is the reason

she fell 3 days in a row, and hit her head each time.  MRSs are negative for

resultant head injury.  She was on gabapentin for the past year, and weaned off

also 4 weeks ago - it was prescribed for the neuropathy pain, but she credited

the numbness in her feet to it.  It also caused her feet to get very swollen,

and this went away after discontinuing the gabapentin.  She has been on Tylenol

4 (contains codeine) for low

back pain following multiple lumber laminectomies in 1986 and 1987,

continuously ever since that time, dosing minimally as her doctor allows her to

do.  Her low back is obviously very stiff and all of the muscles in her back are

taut, rigid and swollen.  She takes ambien and amitryptilene for sleep and

either zantac or prilosec for stomach pain that does not match proper use of

those products - she gets bloating, nausea, queasiness, and vomiting, but no

burning or reflux.  These symptoms occur when the weather gets hot and humid. 

She also takes a " small water pill " she inadvertently mentioned, but couldn't

remember the name of.  Lastly, she is hypothyroid and takes synthroid for that. 

She was surprised to hear I thought this was a lot of medication - she used to

be on even more.

 

The numbness and now intermittently-returning pins-and-needles sensation is in

all of her toes on both feet.  She is accustomed to ignoring her symptoms as

much as she is able.  Her left lower leg is darker in color than the right -

slight, but noticeable.

 

She also had knee replacement surgery in the left leg in 2007, which went well.

 

She has a very strong repugnant odor of something sickeningly sweet that has

been burned.  The odor lingers in my treatment room for days after she leaves! 

Her voice is deep and loud, and so phlegmy, it is gravelly.  Her face is red. 

Her tongue is puffy and large, dusky and dark reddish with a wide, tender, pale

orangey edge on the sides and tip; there is a deep dip in the center; it is dry

and there is no coat.  There are no cracks in the tongue.  Her pulses are small,

thin, choppy, and a little tight, slightly stronger on the right wrist than the

left.

 

She complains of having gained 30 pounds in the last year, between smoking

cessation, meds, and reduced activity from the neuropathy.  All of this weight

is in her abdomen, with her limbs rather thin.  She denies having a diagnosis of

diabetes.

 

She complains of being hot, and sweats readily.  She said she did not have hot

flashes or night sweats during menopause; rather, it was as if her body

temperature went up and stayed there.

 

She has wine or scotch daily, and 1 cup of tea.  She talks incessantly, rambling

on about whatever her mind has rambled to.

 

Her neuropathy began immediately following the 3 falls and head strikes last

year.  Even so, I decided to treat her low back instead of her head, and

sensation began to return to her feet after one treatment.  I treated lumbar

huatojiaji points, sacral foramina, ki-3, ki-1, ki-6, liv-3, and ub-60.  Her

walking was more steady and confident when I saw her today, compared to how she

walked before her first treatment - shen she said she couldn't feel her feet on

the ground.

 

I diagnose her with damp heat in the stomach, kidney and spleen qi deficiency

generating dampness, phlegm heat retained in the lungs, liver qi stagnation, and

qi and blood stagnation in the feet, left knee and low back.  And I also think

this is the tip of the iceberg.

 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and questions.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Fri, 4/24/09, Deb Marshall <taichideb wrote:

 

Deb Marshall <taichideb

Re: Peripheral Neuropathy Results Question

 

Friday, April 24, 2009, 7:43 PM

 

Chinese Herbal MedicineI recently treated a man with peripheral neuropathy plus

agonizing shooting pains down his legs. His case stemmed from Interferon

treatment for Hep C post-vietnam, so the neuropathy was something like 20+ years

old. It took about 6 months of weekly treatment, K1 plus Spleen, Bladder, Liver

and GB points and electroacupuncture on lower legs and feet; then bimonthy

treatment for another 4 months; now I see him about once every 2-3 months.

During this time I also had him taking, and he continues to take, Golden

Flower's Ji Xue formula, 4 tabs 3x/day.

 

He went from total numbness to pins and needles, and from that to becoming

ticklish. At the point when needling the sole of the foot caused pain, I stopped

sole needles and stuck to top and edges of foot. He currently has a rare

5-minute case (about once every 2 or 3 weeks) of breakthrough pain in the soles

of his feet, no pain in his legs now for more than 6 months, pretty good but not

yet perfect sensitivity on his soles - very comfortable, he says, sort of like

wearing an extra pair of socks on the bottom of his feet.

 

So yes, some discomfort is part of the re-establishment of microcirculation, and

your patient should be encouraged to look at it as a positive sign; but big pain

might mean you should change the points you're using.

 

BTW, this man had all sorts of physical problems left over from whatever

experiments he was part of during 'Nam; his torso is a mass, from nipple to

pubic bone, of scar tissue from multiple operations, and during the time I was

treating him weekly they were planning to operate again, because the tubules in

his kidneys get blocked and they go in and ream them out every so often. 3

months later, when he'd been on Ji Xue formula for about 4 months, they repeated

the tests prior to setting a date for the operation, and found NO sign of

blockage.

 

His MD's comment: " Don't tell me what you're doing, just keep doing it. "

 

Deb Marshall

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi. Advise her to go to a swimming pool every other day and play around, or join

a formal ymca swim class there. It can help.

 

--- On Sat, 4/25/09, < wrote:

 

<

Re: Re: Peripheral Neuropathy Results Question

 

Saturday, April 25, 2009, 12:20 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you Deb.  I especially like the doctor's comment at the end.

 

 

 

It turns out, my patient and her husband have decided to take off in their RV

next week, for points unknown, and for an indefinite period.  I doubt I will

ever see her again.

 

 

 

For the sake of academic interest, and to answer the questions of those who

asked, here's some more info on her meds, history, constitution, diagnosis,

etc.  Unfortunately, her western medical diagnoses are all over the place and

unclear.  Example:  She was on depakote for seizures for 15 years, and weaned

off 4 weeks ago because she " does not have a seizure disorder " .  She was

diagnosed instead with COPD causing fainting, which " went away " after she

stopped smoking her one-pack-a-day, one year ago.  The fainting is the reason

she fell 3 days in a row, and hit her head each time.  MRSs are negative for

resultant head injury.  She was on gabapentin for the past year, and weaned off

also 4 weeks ago - it was prescribed for the neuropathy pain, but she credited

the numbness in her feet to it.  It also caused her feet to get very swollen,

and this went away after discontinuing the gabapentin.  She has been on Tylenol

4 (contains codeine) for low

 

back pain following multiple lumber laminectomies in 1986 and 1987,

continuously ever since that time, dosing minimally as her doctor allows her to

do.  Her low back is obviously very stiff and all of the muscles in her back are

taut, rigid and swollen.  She takes ambien and amitryptilene for sleep and

either zantac or prilosec for stomach pain that does not match proper use of

those products - she gets bloating, nausea, queasiness, and vomiting, but no

burning or reflux.  These symptoms occur when the weather gets hot and humid. 

She also takes a " small water pill " she inadvertently mentioned, but couldn't

remember the name of.  Lastly, she is hypothyroid and takes synthroid for that. 

She was surprised to hear I thought this was a lot of medication - she used to

be on even more.

 

 

 

The numbness and now intermittently- returning pins-and-needles sensation is in

all of her toes on both feet.  She is accustomed to ignoring her symptoms as

much as she is able.  Her left lower leg is darker in color than the right -

slight, but noticeable.

 

 

 

She also had knee replacement surgery in the left leg in 2007, which went well.

 

 

 

She has a very strong repugnant odor of something sickeningly sweet that has

been burned.  The odor lingers in my treatment room for days after she leaves! 

Her voice is deep and loud, and so phlegmy, it is gravelly.  Her face is red. 

Her tongue is puffy and large, dusky and dark reddish with a wide, tender, pale

orangey edge on the sides and tip; there is a deep dip in the center; it is dry

and there is no coat.  There are no cracks in the tongue.  Her pulses are small,

thin, choppy, and a little tight, slightly stronger on the right wrist than the

left.

 

 

 

She complains of having gained 30 pounds in the last year, between smoking

cessation, meds, and reduced activity from the neuropathy.  All of this weight

is in her abdomen, with her limbs rather thin.  She denies having a diagnosis of

diabetes.

 

 

 

She complains of being hot, and sweats readily.  She said she did not have hot

flashes or night sweats during menopause; rather, it was as if her body

temperature went up and stayed there.

 

 

 

She has wine or scotch daily, and 1 cup of tea.  She talks incessantly, rambling

on about whatever her mind has rambled to.

 

 

 

Her neuropathy began immediately following the 3 falls and head strikes last

year.  Even so, I decided to treat her low back instead of her head, and

sensation began to return to her feet after one treatment.  I treated lumbar

huatojiaji points, sacral foramina, ki-3, ki-1, ki-6, liv-3, and ub-60.  Her

walking was more steady and confident when I saw her today, compared to how she

walked before her first treatment - shen she said she couldn't feel her feet on

the ground.

 

 

 

I diagnose her with damp heat in the stomach, kidney and spleen qi deficiency

generating dampness, phlegm heat retained in the lungs, liver qi stagnation, and

qi and blood stagnation in the feet, left knee and low back.  And I also think

this is the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and questions.

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

635 S. 10th St.

 

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Fri, 4/24/09, Deb Marshall <taichideb (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:

 

 

 

Deb Marshall <taichideb (AT) tds (DOT) net>

 

Re: Peripheral Neuropathy Results Question

 

 

 

Friday, April 24, 2009, 7:43 PM

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal MedicineI recently treated a man with peripheral neuropathy plus

agonizing shooting pains down his legs. His case stemmed from Interferon

treatment for Hep C post-vietnam, so the neuropathy was something like 20+ years

old. It took about 6 months of weekly treatment, K1 plus Spleen, Bladder, Liver

and GB points and electroacupuncture on lower legs and feet; then bimonthy

treatment for another 4 months; now I see him about once every 2-3 months.

During this time I also had him taking, and he continues to take, Golden

Flower's Ji Xue formula, 4 tabs 3x/day.

 

 

 

He went from total numbness to pins and needles, and from that to becoming

ticklish. At the point when needling the sole of the foot caused pain, I stopped

sole needles and stuck to top and edges of foot. He currently has a rare

5-minute case (about once every 2 or 3 weeks) of breakthrough pain in the soles

of his feet, no pain in his legs now for more than 6 months, pretty good but not

yet perfect sensitivity on his soles - very comfortable, he says, sort of like

wearing an extra pair of socks on the bottom of his feet.

 

 

 

So yes, some discomfort is part of the re-establishment of microcirculation, and

your patient should be encouraged to look at it as a positive sign; but big pain

might mean you should change the points you're using.

 

 

 

BTW, this man had all sorts of physical problems left over from whatever

experiments he was part of during 'Nam; his torso is a mass, from nipple to

pubic bone, of scar tissue from multiple operations, and during the time I was

treating him weekly they were planning to operate again, because the tubules in

his kidneys get blocked and they go in and ream them out every so often. 3

months later, when he'd been on Ji Xue formula for about 4 months, they repeated

the tests prior to setting a date for the operation, and found NO sign of

blockage.

 

 

 

His MD's comment: " Don't tell me what you're doing, just keep doing it. "

 

 

 

Deb Marshall

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Why would this be helpful?

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Fri, 4/24/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote:

 

mystir <ykcul_ritsym

Re: Re: Peripheral Neuropathy Results Question

 

Friday, April 24, 2009, 11:36 PM

 

Hi. Advise her to go to a swimming pool every other day and play around, or join

a formal ymca swim class there. It can help.

 

--- On Sat, 4/25/09, < wrote:

 

<

Re: Re: Peripheral Neuropathy Results Question

 

Saturday, April 25, 2009, 12:20 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

           

           

 

 

     

      Thank you Deb.  I especially like the doctor's comment at the end.

 

 

 

It turns out, my patient and her husband have decided to take off in their RV

next week, for points unknown, and for an indefinite period.  I doubt I will

ever see her again.

 

 

 

For the sake of academic interest, and to answer the questions of those who

asked, here's some more info on her meds, history, constitution, diagnosis,

etc.  Unfortunately, her western medical diagnoses are all over the place and

unclear.  Example:  She was on depakote for seizures for 15 years, and weaned

off 4 weeks ago because she " does not have a seizure disorder " .  She was

diagnosed instead with COPD causing fainting, which " went away " after she

stopped smoking her one-pack-a-day, one year ago.  The fainting is the reason

she fell 3 days in a row, and hit her head each time.  MRSs are negative for

resultant head injury.  She was on gabapentin for the past year, and weaned off

also 4 weeks ago - it was prescribed for the neuropathy pain, but she credited

the numbness in her feet to it.  It also caused her feet to get very swollen,

and this went away after discontinuing the gabapentin.  She has been on Tylenol

4 (contains codeine) for low

 

back pain following multiple lumber laminectomies in 1986 and 1987,

continuously ever since that time, dosing minimally as her doctor allows her to

do.  Her low back is obviously very stiff and all of the muscles in her back are

taut, rigid and swollen.  She takes ambien and amitryptilene for sleep and

either zantac or prilosec for stomach pain that does not match proper use of

those products - she gets bloating, nausea, queasiness, and vomiting, but no

burning or reflux.  These symptoms occur when the weather gets hot and humid. 

She also takes a " small water pill " she inadvertently mentioned, but couldn't

remember the name of.  Lastly, she is hypothyroid and takes synthroid for that. 

She was surprised to hear I thought this was a lot of medication - she used to

be on even more.

 

 

 

The numbness and now intermittently- returning pins-and-needles sensation is in

all of her toes on both feet.  She is accustomed to ignoring her symptoms as

much as she is able.  Her left lower leg is darker in color than the right -

slight, but noticeable.

 

 

 

She also had knee replacement surgery in the left leg in 2007, which went well.

 

 

 

She has a very strong repugnant odor of something sickeningly sweet that has

been burned.  The odor lingers in my treatment room for days after she leaves! 

Her voice is deep and loud, and so phlegmy, it is gravelly.  Her face is red. 

Her tongue is puffy and large, dusky and dark reddish with a wide, tender, pale

orangey edge on the sides and tip; there is a deep dip in the center; it is dry

and there is no coat.  There are no cracks in the tongue.  Her pulses are small,

thin, choppy, and a little tight, slightly stronger on the right wrist than the

left.

 

 

 

She complains of having gained 30 pounds in the last year, between smoking

cessation, meds, and reduced activity from the neuropathy.  All of this weight

is in her abdomen, with her limbs rather thin.  She denies having a diagnosis of

diabetes.

 

 

 

She complains of being hot, and sweats readily.  She said she did not have hot

flashes or night sweats during menopause; rather, it was as if her body

temperature went up and stayed there.

 

 

 

She has wine or scotch daily, and 1 cup of tea.  She talks incessantly, rambling

on about whatever her mind has rambled to.

 

 

 

Her neuropathy began immediately following the 3 falls and head strikes last

year.  Even so, I decided to treat her low back instead of her head, and

sensation began to return to her feet after one treatment.  I treated lumbar

huatojiaji points, sacral foramina, ki-3, ki-1, ki-6, liv-3, and ub-60.  Her

walking was more steady and confident when I saw her today, compared to how she

walked before her first treatment - shen she said she couldn't feel her feet on

the ground.

 

 

 

I diagnose her with damp heat in the stomach, kidney and spleen qi deficiency

generating dampness, phlegm heat retained in the lungs, liver qi stagnation, and

qi and blood stagnation in the feet, left knee and low back.  And I also think

this is the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and questions.

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

635 S. 10th St.

 

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Fri, 4/24/09, Deb Marshall <taichideb (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:

 

 

 

Deb Marshall <taichideb (AT) tds (DOT) net>

 

Re: Peripheral Neuropathy Results Question

 

 

 

Friday, April 24, 2009, 7:43 PM

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal MedicineI recently treated a man with peripheral neuropathy plus

agonizing shooting pains down his legs. His case stemmed from Interferon

treatment for Hep C post-vietnam, so the neuropathy was something like 20+ years

old. It took about 6 months of weekly treatment, K1 plus Spleen, Bladder, Liver

and GB points and electroacupuncture on lower legs and feet; then bimonthy

treatment for another 4 months; now I see him about once every 2-3 months.

During this time I also had him taking, and he continues to take, Golden

Flower's Ji Xue formula, 4 tabs 3x/day.

 

 

 

He went from total numbness to pins and needles, and from that to becoming

ticklish. At the point when needling the sole of the foot caused pain, I stopped

sole needles and stuck to top and edges of foot. He currently has a rare

5-minute case (about once every 2 or 3 weeks) of breakthrough pain in the soles

of his feet, no pain in his legs now for more than 6 months, pretty good but not

yet perfect sensitivity on his soles - very comfortable, he says, sort of like

wearing an extra pair of socks on the bottom of his feet.

 

 

 

So yes, some discomfort is part of the re-establishment of microcirculation, and

your patient should be encouraged to look at it as a positive sign; but big pain

might mean you should change the points you're using.

 

 

 

BTW, this man had all sorts of physical problems left over from whatever

experiments he was part of during 'Nam; his torso is a mass, from nipple to

pubic bone, of scar tissue from multiple operations, and during the time I was

treating him weekly they were planning to operate again, because the tubules in

his kidneys get blocked and they go in and ream them out every so often. 3

months later, when he'd been on Ji Xue formula for about 4 months, they repeated

the tests prior to setting a date for the operation, and found NO sign of

blockage.

 

 

 

His MD's comment: " Don't tell me what you're doing, just keep doing it. "

 

 

 

Deb Marshall

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi. As  low impact movement to get the circulation and lungs going. Also the

bouyancy

allows people to move and stretch with very little resistance. It uses the whole

body.

--- On Sat, 4/25/09, < wrote:

 

<

Re: Re: Peripheral Neuropathy Results Question

 

Saturday, April 25, 2009, 10:07 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why would this be helpful?

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

635 S. 10th St.

 

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Fri, 4/24/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote:

 

 

 

mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ >

 

Re: Re: Peripheral Neuropathy Results Question

 

 

 

Friday, April 24, 2009, 11:36 PM

 

 

 

Hi. Advise her to go to a swimming pool every other day and play around, or join

a formal ymca swim class there. It can help.

 

 

 

--- On Sat, 4/25/09, < > wrote:

 

 

 

< >

 

Re: Re: Peripheral Neuropathy Results Question

 

 

 

Saturday, April 25, 2009, 12:20 AM

 

 

 

   

 

           

 

           

 

 

 

     

 

      Thank you Deb.  I especially like the doctor's comment at the end.

 

 

 

It turns out, my patient and her husband have decided to take off in their RV

next week, for points unknown, and for an indefinite period.  I doubt I will

ever see her again.

 

 

 

For the sake of academic interest, and to answer the questions of those who

asked, here's some more info on her meds, history, constitution, diagnosis,

etc.  Unfortunately, her western medical diagnoses are all over the place and

unclear.  Example:  She was on depakote for seizures for 15 years, and weaned

off 4 weeks ago because she " does not have a seizure disorder " .  She was

diagnosed instead with COPD causing fainting, which " went away " after she

stopped smoking her one-pack-a-day, one year ago.  The fainting is the reason

she fell 3 days in a row, and hit her head each time.  MRSs are negative for

resultant head injury.  She was on gabapentin for the past year, and weaned off

also 4 weeks ago - it was prescribed for the neuropathy pain, but she credited

the numbness in her feet to it.  It also caused her feet to get very swollen,

and this went away after discontinuing the gabapentin.  She has been on Tylenol

4 (contains codeine) for low

 

 

 

back pain following multiple lumber laminectomies in 1986 and 1987, continuously

ever since that time, dosing minimally as her doctor allows her to do.  Her low

back is obviously very stiff and all of the muscles in her back are taut, rigid

and swollen.  She takes ambien and amitryptilene for sleep and either zantac or

prilosec for stomach pain that does not match proper use of those products - she

gets bloating, nausea, queasiness, and vomiting, but no burning or reflux. 

These symptoms occur when the weather gets hot and humid.  She also takes a

" small water pill " she inadvertently mentioned, but couldn't remember the name

of.  Lastly, she is hypothyroid and takes synthroid for that.  She was surprised

to hear I thought this was a lot of medication - she used to be on even more.

 

 

 

The numbness and now intermittently- returning pins-and-needles sensation is in

all of her toes on both feet.  She is accustomed to ignoring her symptoms as

much as she is able.  Her left lower leg is darker in color than the right -

slight, but noticeable.

 

 

 

She also had knee replacement surgery in the left leg in 2007, which went well.

 

 

 

She has a very strong repugnant odor of something sickeningly sweet that has

been burned.  The odor lingers in my treatment room for days after she leaves! 

Her voice is deep and loud, and so phlegmy, it is gravelly.  Her face is red. 

Her tongue is puffy and large, dusky and dark reddish with a wide, tender, pale

orangey edge on the sides and tip; there is a deep dip in the center; it is dry

and there is no coat.  There are no cracks in the tongue.  Her pulses are small,

thin, choppy, and a little tight, slightly stronger on the right wrist than the

left.

 

 

 

She complains of having gained 30 pounds in the last year, between smoking

cessation, meds, and reduced activity from the neuropathy.  All of this weight

is in her abdomen, with her limbs rather thin.  She denies having a diagnosis of

diabetes.

 

 

 

She complains of being hot, and sweats readily.  She said she did not have hot

flashes or night sweats during menopause; rather, it was as if her body

temperature went up and stayed there.

 

 

 

She has wine or scotch daily, and 1 cup of tea.  She talks incessantly, rambling

on about whatever her mind has rambled to.

 

 

 

Her neuropathy began immediately following the 3 falls and head strikes last

year.  Even so, I decided to treat her low back instead of her head, and

sensation began to return to her feet after one treatment.  I treated lumbar

huatojiaji points, sacral foramina, ki-3, ki-1, ki-6, liv-3, and ub-60.  Her

walking was more steady and confident when I saw her today, compared to how she

walked before her first treatment - shen she said she couldn't feel her feet on

the ground.

 

 

 

I diagnose her with damp heat in the stomach, kidney and spleen qi deficiency

generating dampness, phlegm heat retained in the lungs, liver qi stagnation, and

qi and blood stagnation in the feet, left knee and low back.  And I also think

this is the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and questions.

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

 

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

 

 

635 S. 10th St.

 

 

 

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

 

 

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Fri, 4/24/09, Deb Marshall <taichideb (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:

 

 

 

Deb Marshall <taichideb (AT) tds (DOT) net>

 

 

 

Re: Peripheral Neuropathy Results Question

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Friday, April 24, 2009, 7:43 PM

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal MedicineI recently treated a man with peripheral neuropathy plus

agonizing shooting pains down his legs. His case stemmed from Interferon

treatment for Hep C post-vietnam, so the neuropathy was something like 20+ years

old. It took about 6 months of weekly treatment, K1 plus Spleen, Bladder, Liver

and GB points and electroacupuncture on lower legs and feet; then bimonthy

treatment for another 4 months; now I see him about once every 2-3 months.

During this time I also had him taking, and he continues to take, Golden

Flower's Ji Xue formula, 4 tabs 3x/day.

 

 

 

He went from total numbness to pins and needles, and from that to becoming

ticklish. At the point when needling the sole of the foot caused pain, I stopped

sole needles and stuck to top and edges of foot. He currently has a rare

5-minute case (about once every 2 or 3 weeks) of breakthrough pain in the soles

of his feet, no pain in his legs now for more than 6 months, pretty good but not

yet perfect sensitivity on his soles - very comfortable, he says, sort of like

wearing an extra pair of socks on the bottom of his feet.

 

 

 

So yes, some discomfort is part of the re-establishment of microcirculation, and

your patient should be encouraged to look at it as a positive sign; but big pain

might mean you should change the points you're using.

 

 

 

BTW, this man had all sorts of physical problems left over from whatever

experiments he was part of during 'Nam; his torso is a mass, from nipple to

pubic bone, of scar tissue from multiple operations, and during the time I was

treating him weekly they were planning to operate again, because the tubules in

his kidneys get blocked and they go in and ream them out every so often. 3

months later, when he'd been on Ji Xue formula for about 4 months, they repeated

the tests prior to setting a date for the operation, and found NO sign of

blockage.

 

 

 

His MD's comment: " Don't tell me what you're doing, just keep doing it. "

 

 

 

Deb Marshall

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Doug,

 

Ji Xue Formula: Ji Xue Teng, Huang Qi, Yi Yi Ren, He Shou Wu, Dang Gui, Dong

Chong Xia Cao, Chi Shao, Shen Qu, Shu Di, Wu Wei Zi, Zhe Ke, Zhi Zi

 

They originally called it " Chemo Blood Support " and was, I believe, developed

for patients receiving chemo or those who had Interferon treatment, but in the

last year or so changed the name because they're promoting it's usefulness as a

geriatric circulation issues/tonic formula as well.

 

I've also given it to a number of patients receiving chemo and it seems to make

a significant difference in how well they feel between chemo txs and all have so

far avoided or halted and reversed the beginnings of neuropathy.

 

 

Deb Marshall