RE: Chronic sinus fungal infection treatment

[Guest guest]

The theory is clean up the terrain that supports the pathogen and the pathogen

cannot survive. Pastuer said on his deadbed something about he was mistaken, the

terrain is everything. So if the right herb is given, in theory, it will make

the environment unable to support the life of pathogen. That being said,

emotions play a big part in sinusitis, and contribute to the terrain.

 

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup wrote:

 

Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup

Chronic sinus fungal infection treatment

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, December 18, 2008, 10:29 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would I treat chronic sinus infections/congesti on due to fungus (per

her ENT)any differently than treating the symptoms plus the underlying

pattern? This is 30 year old female, overweight, poor eating habits,

obviously lots of dampness and phlegm, Liver qi stagnation. She's had

Western treatment (surgery, antibiotics) . Acu and patent herbal have

helped sinus symptoms a lot.

My question is if the underlying dampness and phlemg are treated, would

that take care of the fungus? Or is there something else

herbal/nutritional that I could do? As always, thanks for the help,

and happy holidays to all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 Hi. I had someone with chronic, severe sinus infections, that eventually were

related to fungal infection, but nothing resolved it, not even experimental

drugs. This patient was very overweight also. Indications were for big phlemg,

damp accumulation, but patient was absolutely intolerable to chinese herbs

(teas, patents etc.). Any herbs, in any amount would cause diarrhea, even a weak

honeysuckle tea would trigger it. Patient did try to continue for a couple days,

but was too uncomfortable. I feel some weight loss would help, and so did he,

but not able to test that.

 What did help was acupressure more than acupuncture. LI4+20, and strong

pressure even with elbow around the GB21, SJ15, SI13+14+15 area. Using drainage

from side of face to under ear and down neck. and also some disperse, warm

qikung over sinus area, which he could feel. During this the sinus pressure

lessened and after patient would eliminate a copious amount of phlegm through

nose, sometimes a few times a day. He would be better for a few days, and things

would start to block up again.

 His wife learned how to do some of the massage, and after 8 or 10 visits or so,

he stopped coming. He got a lot of relief from what we did, but imo it was just

symptomatic.

 What experience does anyone else have with this kind of response to herbs?

Thanks.  

 

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Rissa Guest <rissaguest wrote:

Rissa Guest <rissaguest

Re: Chronic sinus fungal infection treatment

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, December 18, 2008, 1:43 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The theory is clean up the terrain that supports the pathogen and

the pathogen cannot survive. Pastuer said on his deadbed something about he was

mistaken, the terrain is everything. So if the right herb is given, in theory,

it will make the environment unable to support the life of pathogen. That being

said, emotions play a big part in sinusitis, and contribute to the terrain.

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ sbcglobal. net> wrote:

 

 

 

Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ sbcglobal. net>

 

Chronic sinus fungal infection treatment

 

 

 

Thursday, December 18, 2008, 10:29 AM

 

 

 

Would I treat chronic sinus infections/congesti on due to fungus (per

 

her ENT)any differently than treating the symptoms plus the underlying

 

pattern? This is 30 year old female, overweight, poor eating habits,

 

obviously lots of dampness and phlegm, Liver qi stagnation. She's had

 

Western treatment (surgery, antibiotics) . Acu and patent herbal have

 

helped sinus symptoms a lot.

 

My question is if the underlying dampness and phlemg are treated, would

 

that take care of the fungus? Or is there something else

 

herbal/nutritional that I could do? As always, thanks for the help,

 

and happy holidays to all.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 Hi. I had someone with chronic, severe sinus infections, that eventually were

related to fungal infection, but nothing resolved it, not even experimental

drugs. This patient was very overweight also. Indications were for big phlemg,

damp accumulation, but patient was absolutely intolerable to chinese herbs

(teas, patents etc.). Any herbs, in any amount would cause diarrhea, even a weak

honeysuckle tea would trigger it. Patient did try to continue for a couple days,

but was too uncomfortable. I feel some weight loss would help, and so did he,

but not able to test that.

 What did help was acupressure more than acupuncture. LI4+20, and strong

pressure even with elbow around the GB21, SJ15, SI13+14+15 area. Using drainage

from side of face to under ear and down neck. and also some disperse, warm

qikung over sinus area, which he could feel. During this the sinus pressure

lessened and after patient would eliminate a copious amount of phlegm through

nose, sometimes a few times a day. He would be better for a few days, and things

would start to block up again.

 His wife learned how to do some of the massage, and after 8 or 10 visits or so,

he stopped coming. He got a lot of relief from what we did, but imo it was just

symptomatic.

 What experience does anyone else have with this kind of response to herbs?

Thanks.  

 

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Rissa Guest <rissaguest wrote:

Rissa Guest <rissaguest

Re: Chronic sinus fungal infection treatment

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, December 18, 2008, 1:43 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The theory is clean up the terrain that supports the pathogen and

the pathogen cannot survive. Pastuer said on his deadbed something about he was

mistaken, the terrain is everything. So if the right herb is given, in theory,

it will make the environment unable to support the life of pathogen. That being

said, emotions play a big part in sinusitis, and contribute to the terrain.

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ sbcglobal. net> wrote:

 

 

 

Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ sbcglobal. net>

 

Chronic sinus fungal infection treatment

 

 

 

Thursday, December 18, 2008, 10:29 AM

 

 

 

Would I treat chronic sinus infections/congesti on due to fungus (per

 

her ENT)any differently than treating the symptoms plus the underlying

 

pattern? This is 30 year old female, overweight, poor eating habits,

 

obviously lots of dampness and phlegm, Liver qi stagnation. She's had

 

Western treatment (surgery, antibiotics) . Acu and patent herbal have

 

helped sinus symptoms a lot.

 

My question is if the underlying dampness and phlemg are treated, would

 

that take care of the fungus? Or is there something else

 

herbal/nutritional that I could do? As always, thanks for the help,

 

and happy holidays to all.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In my experience, this type of presentation (as well as most chronic sinus

infections) responds exceptionally well to herbs. If your patient was

getting easy diarrhea, my guess is the formula was incorrect. Many times one

must base the prescription on something like shenlingbaizhusan (warming the

Spleen) instead of trying to clear heat / toxin etc (e.g. jin yin hua).

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mystir

Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:36 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Chronic sinus fungal infection treatment

 

 

 

Hi. I had someone with chronic, severe sinus infections, that eventually

were related to fungal infection, but nothing resolved it, not even

experimental drugs. This patient was very overweight also. Indications were

for big phlemg, damp accumulation, but patient was absolutely intolerable to

chinese herbs (teas, patents etc.). Any herbs, in any amount would cause

diarrhea, even a weak honeysuckle tea would trigger it. Patient did try to

continue for a couple days, but was too uncomfortable. I feel some weight

loss would help, and so did he, but not able to test that.

What did help was acupressure more than acupuncture. LI4+20, and strong

pressure even with elbow around the GB21, SJ15, SI13+14+15 area. Using

drainage from side of face to under ear and down neck. and also some

disperse, warm qikung over sinus area, which he could feel. During this the

sinus pressure lessened and after patient would eliminate a copious amount

of phlegm through nose, sometimes a few times a day. He would be better for

a few days, and things would start to block up again.

His wife learned how to do some of the massage, and after 8 or 10 visits or

so, he stopped coming. He got a lot of relief from what we did, but imo it

was just symptomatic.

What experience does anyone else have with this kind of response to herbs?

Thanks.

 

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Rissa Guest <rissaguest

<rissaguest%40> > wrote:

Rissa Guest <rissaguest <rissaguest%40> >

Re: Chronic sinus fungal infection treatment

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

Thursday, December 18, 2008, 1:43 PM

 

The theory is clean up the terrain that supports the pathogen and the

pathogen cannot survive. Pastuer said on his deadbed something about he was

mistaken, the terrain is everything. So if the right herb is given, in

theory, it will make the environment unable to support the life of pathogen.

That being said, emotions play a big part in sinusitis, and contribute to

the terrain.

 

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ sbcglobal. net> wrote:

 

Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ sbcglobal. net>

 

Chronic sinus fungal infection treatment

 

 

 

Thursday, December 18, 2008, 10:29 AM

 

Would I treat chronic sinus infections/congesti on due to fungus (per

 

her ENT)any differently than treating the symptoms plus the underlying

 

pattern? This is 30 year old female, overweight, poor eating habits,

 

obviously lots of dampness and phlegm, Liver qi stagnation. She's had

 

Western treatment (surgery, antibiotics) . Acu and patent herbal have

 

helped sinus symptoms a lot.

 

My question is if the underlying dampness and phlemg are treated, would

 

that take care of the fungus? Or is there something else

 

herbal/nutritional that I could do? As always, thanks for the help,

 

and happy holidays to all.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Fran:

 

" Any herbs, in any amount would cause diarrhea, even a weak honeysuckle tea

would trigger it. "

 

I was wondering, what do you mean by " any " ? honeysuckle is cold so

I'm not surprised that a phlegm/deficient presentation would experience

diarrhea as a reaction.

On the other hand, he may have a lot of liver overacting on spleen, making him

over sensitive to any strong flavour or action.

The type of diarrhea may give an indication as to this.

 

Otherwise, the herbal formula should be based on regulating therapy or warming

the middle.

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason and Hugo. I was thinking I wasn't giving him the right formula, too.

Diarrhea wasn't present before the herbs. The enormous amount of nasal mucous,

white and sometimes greenish, that was impacted was the target. The man had to

use one of those 'water-pic' devices every day to irrigate his sinuses.

  I tried Er Chen Tang, modified with Tian Nan Xin, Jie Geng, Zhi Shi, Hou Po,

and Bai Zhu.

But the diarrhea started, so we discontinued after trying variations of dosages,

and eliminating ingredients. The honeysuckle I tried when the mucous/phlegm was

greenish, I was thinking that would be gentle.

 Do you use Shen Ling Bai Zhu San when diarrhea isn't present? Any advice or

criticism is humbly welcomed. Thanks.

 

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

Hugo Ramiro <subincor

Re: Chronic sinus fungal infection treatment

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, December 18, 2008, 4:21 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Fran:

 

 

 

" Any herbs, in any amount would cause diarrhea, even a weak honeysuckle tea

would trigger it. "

 

 

 

I was wondering, what do you mean by " any " ? honeysuckle is cold so

 

I'm not surprised that a phlegm/deficient presentation would experience

 

diarrhea as a reaction.

 

On the other hand, he may have a lot of liver overacting on spleen, making him

over sensitive to any strong flavour or action.

 

The type of diarrhea may give an indication as to this.

 

 

 

Otherwise, the herbal formula should be based on regulating therapy or warming

the middle.

 

 

 

Hugo

 

 

 

____________ _________ _________ __

 

Hugo Ramiro

 

http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

 

http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason et al:

 

I am very interested in this thread, as it is coinciding with my reading of the

article in the

October JCM on the Attack and Drain School of Zhang Cong-zheng.

 

In the technique of draining downward, which he used in cases of phlegm & damp,

among others, the author Charles Buck reveals Zhang's use of Da Cheng Qi Tang,

for

example, in order to " allow tonification to take place...according to the maxim

that

'removing the old allows for the new to flourish.' "

 

Granted, in this case, the jin yin hua given to the patient was not intended to

drain the xie

qi downward, but could it be postulated that in fact this is what was occurring

physiologically through the stool? If the patient had so much phlegm to

transform and

expel, what do we expect clinically to happen? I do agree that the treatment

principle

was perhaps not on the right track, as it did cause diarrhea, but I am curious

what you or

others may think.

 

As an aside to the original poster, I have had patients who use a nasal

irrigator use Huang

Lian Jie Du Tang topically, by using the decocted tea instead of saline water.

I've had

success in shrinking sinus polyps in a patient scheduled for surgery, while

others have

reduced sinus pain. I used the same principle of using herbal enemas to soothe

inflamed

tissue on contact.

 

Melanie

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

 

wrote:

>

> In my experience, this type of presentation (as well as most chronic sinus

> infections) responds exceptionally well to herbs. If your patient was

> getting easy diarrhea, my guess is the formula was incorrect. Many times one

> must base the prescription on something like shenlingbaizhusan (warming the

> Spleen) instead of trying to clear heat / toxin etc (e.g. jin yin hua).

>

>

>

> -

>

[Guest guest]

Yes I have used SLBZS (modified) without diarrhea. It is actually a standard

base formula for chronic sinusitis due to Spleen qi xu (as is BZYQT). Your

formula easily could be too harsh and cause diarrhea.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine

 

 

Do you use Shen Ling Bai Zhu San when diarrhea isn't present? Any advice or

criticism is humbly welcomed. Thanks.

 

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Hugo Ramiro <subincor

<subincor%40> > wrote:

Hugo Ramiro <subincor <subincor%40> >

Re: Chronic sinus fungal infection treatment

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40>

Thursday, December 18, 2008, 4:21 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Nancy Corsaro "

<eastwestacup wrote:

>

> Would I treat chronic sinus infections/congestion due to fungus (per

> her ENT)any differently than treating the symptoms plus the underlying

> pattern?

 

Hi Nancy, everyone

as well as nasal / sinus irrigations mentioned by a respondent here,

there is also benefit in good ol' fashioned steam inhalations with

certain essential oils... as well as the herbs, diet,

acupressure/puncture and lymphatic drainage also described by others

here. I agree there is often an emotional component - a potent mix of

unexpressed anger and grief seems to predominate in many stubborn

sinus conditions.

 

Ingested herbs, diet etc will care for the terrain in general, but

following the analogy, in this patient's sinuses there are a whole lot

of weeds which need to be discouraged right at the site where they're

growing.

 

Essential oils are often an unexpectedly powerful and rapidly

effective adjunct to treatment, containing a number of functionally

active compounds which tincturing or processing plants into digestable

form cannot provide.

 

Several essential oils have marked broad-spectrum activity against a

variety of 'bugs', including fungi... Tea Tree - Melaleuca

alternifolia - is a star performer, and with the exception of some

people with asthma, is very safe. Just make sure it's fresh, because

older stock - with air in the bottle - will have oxidised, and become

a potential irritant to skin and mucous membranes.

 

Interestingly, many of the eoils from plants and trees native to

Australia, have a natural therapeutic affinity for disorders of the

tissues and organs of the Metal element.

 

I'm assuming everybody knows how to do a steam inhalation safely, so

I won't describe it.. 4 drops Tea Tree into the receptacle, with 4

inhalations a day, is a good place to begin. Be sure to keep the eyes

closed, and not get so close to the steam that scalding occurs!!

The heat of the steam may temporarily dilate capillaries in the nose,

and temporarily increase the sense of congestion, after each session.

 

If yellow or green mucous don't resolve after a week of this, then

certain hard-core, not very pleasant e.oils will be needed. Contact

your local clinical aromatherapist or email me off list, if you'd like

to know more.

The regime of regular inhalations will need to continue for some

weeks, until the fungi have been eliminated.

 

Hope this helps

 

Blessings for the season

 

Margi

www.luminahealth.com.au

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jason for your recommendations, I'll remember them. If you have time,

could you break down in a little more detail, why the formula I gave was too

harsh, and why it could have caused the diarrhea? I don't doubt you are right,

I'm just not sure why.

 

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I have used SLBZS (modified) without diarrhea. It is actually a

standard

 

base formula for chronic sinusitis due to Spleen qi xu (as is BZYQT). Your

 

formula easily could be too harsh and cause diarrhea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Margi, thanks.

 

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald wrote:

(...as well as nasal / sinus irrigations mentioned by a respondent here,

 

there is also benefit in good ol' fashioned steam inhalations with

 

certain essential oils..)

 Good advice, the person was also using steam inhalator, but not essential oils.

(...there is often an emotional component - a potent mix of

 

unexpressed anger and grief seems to predominate in many stubborn

 

sinus conditions.)

Could be very true. The patient's previous wife committed suicide years

before.  But he had seemed to move on so well, I was not sure opening

all that up was a good idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , mystir

<ykcul_ritsym wrote:

>

 

 

> The patient's previous wife committed suicide years

> before.� But he had seemed to move on so well, I was not sure opening

> all that up was a good idea.

>

 

I still find this kind of thing is often the most difficult in our

work... approaching the big pandora's box of past events in a

patient's life... and knowing that it's a counsellor or psych who

might be of most use... and in this case - in the context of a fungal

infection in the sinuses - perhaps a tricky bridge to traverse initially!

Maybe - one day - a couple of luo points on some yin channels, to

gently release some old emotions... I think I remember this is

explained by Peter Deadman in his big work on the acupoints.

 

Margi