Guest guest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Kokko, We're working on a FAQ section of the CSOMA website that will address many of these sorts of questions. Some parts of the FAQ will be publicly available while others will be member access only. Because of the expense of printing and the changing nature of some of these issues, it will probably not be published in print form. --Bill. On Aug 20, 2008, at 5:09 AM, wrote: > Bill, > thanks for that info for CA practitioners. > It's very helpful. Does CSOMA provide an info booklet about these > questions? > > K. > > On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Bill Mosca <mosca wrote: > >> Kath, >> >> The issues of discounting, treatment packages, gift certificates, etc >> are all regulated at the state level. So that particulars will vary >> state by state, and it isn't possible to issue a blanket statement >> that applies in all states. >> >> In California, for example, discounting is absolutely legal under >> certain circumstances. >> >> Specifically, if there is " reasonable cause " to believe that the >> patient is not eligible for insurance reimbursement for a given >> health >> care service, the practitioner is explicitly authorized to provide a >> discount in accord with any criteria that they establish (including >> sliding scale). >> >> Additionally, practitioners may also establish policies for " prompt >> payment " discounts. If payment is made (by any payer) within a time >> period established by the practitioner, the practitioner is >> authorized >> to provide a discount. If the practitioner's policy is to provide a >> discount if payment is made at the time of service then this amounts >> to a cash payment discount. >> >> California does, however, have a law that prohibits prepayment for >> health care services. Some practitioners structure their " packages " >> as rewards programs in which a patient will pay for x number of >> visits >> at the time of service and receive the (x + 1)th visit free. This >> avoids prepayment. >> >> Finally, there are a whole series of restrictions on issuance of gift >> certificates in California that I won't even get into here. >> >> Of course, the particulars will vary state by state, so each >> practitioner should become familiar with the laws and reg of his/her >> state. >> >> --Bill. >> >> >> On Aug 18, 2008, at 6:50 PM, wrote: >> >>> On the issue of giving patients discounts: basically we cannot do >>> this. >>> commonly discounts are offered to a select group of people: eg. >>> medicaid >>> patients, seniors, students, your favorite club, blue cross >>> patients, >>> sliding scale. the reason we can't do this is that it's considered >>> discriminatory against those who don't fall into the select group >>> (regardless of whether or not it's offered for altruist reasons). >>> this is a >>> mestemeaner (sp?) offense. if insurance is involved so that >>> insurance >>> patients don't qualify for the discount (thus billing the insur co a >>> higher >>> rate than the cash patient), it becomes a felony. (a time of service >>> discount would be ok, so long as everyone who pay at the time of >>> service >>> gets it, and its a reasonable discount: 25%). >>> >>> this means that the sliding scale fees offered by community >>> acupuncture >>> clinics and others are illegal. you have to set one flat rate that >>> applies >>> to everyone. >>> >>> you can offer a coupon for x amount off, so long as everyone is >>> informed >>> about the offer so that they may all take advantage of the discount. >>> ($10 >>> off the initial visit in September. you have to offer it to all new >>> patients). you can offer a discount on a particular day or time: >>> monday >>> mornings are 10% off. again, you have to offer it to all your >>> patients. if >>> you want to offer a lower price to a particular population, you >>> need a >>> separate location: $45tx at x,y, z clinic. again, anyone who comes >>> to that >>> location gets the $45 tx. you would need to be able to show that >>> the lower >>> overhead at location B enables you to offer the tx at the lower >>> rate: the >>> location across town is a bare bones setting in a low rent district, >>> with fewer amenities and staffing needs. >>> >>> another commonly used but illegal practice is pkg tx: get 10 tx for >>> $500, >>> this would normally be $700, and paid in adv gift certificates. the >>> reason >>> is accepting payment in adv of service constitutes insurance, and >>> only >>> insurance cos are licensed to do this. so a patient cannot pay on >>> monday >>> for the tx s/he will receive on friday. payment must be made after >>> the tx >>> is received, not prior to. >>> >>> complaints about these practices would be directed to the state atty >>> generals office, the lic. boards, state orgs and nccaom. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Oriental Medicine >>> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective >>> >> >> >> > > > > -- > aka Mu bong Lim > Father of Bhakti > > The Four Reliances: > Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. > As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely > upon the > meaning that underlies them. > Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning > alone, but > rely upon the definitive meaning. > And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary > consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 HI All If you have concerns about legality, perhaps you should call your state's licensing body. That is where the best answer should come from. I called the California acupuncture board on this issue about 15 months ago. The official stance was this: Charging different patients different rates was considered discriminatory. It could subject the practitioner to disclipinary action taken on their license. The board would only pursue the issue based on a formal written complaint by a patient complaining that they were charged more for the same services as another patient was charged. The Acupuncture Board will not pursue anything until they have the formal, written and signed complaint on file. The representative did not specify what the disciplinary action would be. Given the nature of " sliding scale " practices where each patient knows up front that they are paying a different amount than other patients and goes ahead with treatment, it's hard to imagine that anyone would file a complaint because they paid $25 and someone else paid $20. As far as " Ethics " goes... it's a word we should use carefully... from Wikipedia on medical ethics Six of the values that commonly apply to medical ethics discussions are: Beneficence - a practitioner should act in the best interest of the patient. (Salus aegroti suprema lex.) Non-maleficence - " first, do no harm " (primum non nocere). Autonomy - the patient has the right to refuse or choose their treatment. (Voluntas aegroti suprema lex.) Justice - concerns the distribution of scarce health resources, and the decision of who gets what treatment (fairness and equality). Dignity - the patient (and the person treating the patient) have the right to dignity. Truthfulness and honesty - the concept of informed consent has increased in importance since the historical events of the Doctors' Trial of the Nuremberg trials and Tuskegee Syphilis Study. Values such as these do not give answers as to how to handle a particular situation, but provide a useful framework for understanding conflicts Stephen Woodley LAc - shanghanlunseminars.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Kath Bartlett wrote: emmanuel: actually, you cannot change insurance companies a higher rate than what you charge cash patients. you may offer a reasonable (25%) time of service payment discount. kath ---------- Yes, that was my point regarding fraud. Sorry if my post was a bit convoluted. I've worked off and on for a fifteen years for a law office in Oakland, California in the area of MD healthcare, not LAc. This issue comes up. Generally discounts are appropriate for out of pocket patients with no healthcare. I recommend as did Bill Mosca that people contact a lawyer in their state for advice about all the things you mentioned. Legal ethics is somewhat though not entirely different from the ethics in pure philosophy. I was a philosophy student, not a law student. My sense from working in the law office is that a " legal complaint " about ethical pricing would be competitor driven rather than from patients or HMOs. Otherwise it's not clear who would file suit against you or how they would make their case. Additionally in CA the Calf. Med. Assoc. is pretty forceful. A CMA rep would regularly come into the clinic at ACTCM when I worked there in 1988. Students had to remove their " intern " name tags in the clinic that year. CMA is a powerful organization in our state. Gratefully, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Stephen, The information provided by the California Acupuncture Board on this issue is not accurate. There is absolutely nothing in the Acupuncture Act that addresses the issue of rates/discounting. And this is the only area of California law that the Acupuncture Board has the legal authority to enforce. The areas of California statute that do deal with discounting, etc are not within their enforcement purview. Moreover, there is nothing in California law that would make discounting problematic as long as the patient is uninsured (for acupuncture services) and/or the discount falls into the " prompt payment " discount allowance. The real issue with discounting is not " discrimination " but rather the potential for fraud and abuse (i.e., illegal kickbacks) that discounting can bring with it. There are also some antitrust exposures with certain discounting practices. The relevant section of statute is California Business & Professions Code, Section 657 (excerpted below). Everyone, In order to keep confusion and misinformation to a minimum, I would urge contributors to this thread to cite relevant sections of state or federal laws/regs. This is the only way that we're going to get an accurate view of what is legal and what is not. --Bill. California Business & Professions Code, Section 657: (a) The Legislature finds and declares all of the following: (1) Californians spend more than one hundred billion dollars ($100,000,000,000) annually on health care. (2) In 1994, an estimated 6.6 million of California's 32 million residents did not have any health insurance and were ineligible for Medi-Cal. (3) Many of California's uninsured cannot afford basic, preventative health care resulting in these residents relying on emergency rooms for urgent health care, thus driving up health care costs. (4) Health care should be affordable and accessible to all Californians. (5) The public interest dictates that uninsured Californians have access to basic, preventative health care at affordable prices. (b) To encourage the prompt payment of health or medical care claims, health care providers are hereby expressly authorized to grant discounts in health or medical care claims when payment is made promptly within time limits prescribed by the health care providers or institutions rendering the service or treatment. © Notwithstanding any provision in any health care service plan contract or insurance contract to the contrary, health care providers are hereby expressly authorized to grant discounts for health or medical care provided to any patient the health care provider has reasonable cause to believe is not eligible for, or is not entitled to, insurance reimbursement, coverage under the Medi-Cal program, or coverage by a health care service plan for the health or medical care provided. Any discounted fee granted pursuant to this section shall not be deemed to be the health care provider's usual, customary, or reasonable fee for any other purposes, including, but not limited to, any health care service plan contract or insurance contract. (d) " Health care provider, " as used in this section, means any person licensed or certified pursuant to Division 2 (commencing with Section 500) of the Business and Professions Code, or licensed pursuant to the Osteopathic Initiative Act, or the Chiropractic Initiative Act, or licensed pursuant to Chapter 2.5 (commencing with Section 1440) of Division 2 of the Health and Safety Code; and any clinic, health dispensary, or health facility, licensed pursuant to Division 2 (commencing with Section 1200) of the Health and Safety Code. On Aug 20, 2008, at 1:05 PM, stephen woodley wrote: > HI All > If you have concerns about legality, perhaps you should call your > state's licensing body. That is where the best answer should come > from. > > I called the California acupuncture board on this issue about 15 > months > ago. The official stance was this: > > Charging different patients different rates was considered > discriminatory. It could subject the practitioner to disclipinary > action > taken on their license. > The board would only pursue the issue based on a formal written > complaint by a patient complaining that they were charged more for the > same services as another patient was charged. > The Acupuncture Board will not pursue anything until they have the > formal, written and signed complaint on file. > The representative did not specify what the disciplinary action would > be. > > Given the nature of " sliding scale " practices where each patient knows > up front that they are paying a different amount than other patients > and > goes ahead with treatment, it's hard to imagine that anyone would > file a > complaint because they paid $25 and someone else paid $20. > > > As far as " Ethics " goes... it's a word we should use carefully... > from Wikipedia on medical ethics > > Six of the values that commonly apply to medical ethics discussions > are: > > Beneficence - a practitioner should act in the best interest of the > patient. (Salus aegroti suprema lex.) > Non-maleficence - " first, do no harm " (primum non nocere). > Autonomy - the patient has the right to refuse or choose their > treatment. (Voluntas aegroti suprema lex.) > Justice - concerns the distribution of scarce health resources, and > the > decision of who gets what treatment (fairness and equality). > Dignity - the patient (and the person treating the patient) have the > right to dignity. > Truthfulness and honesty - the concept of informed consent has > increased > in importance since the historical events of the Doctors' Trial of the > Nuremberg trials and Tuskegee Syphilis Study. > Values such as these do not give answers as to how to handle a > particular situation, but provide a useful framework for understanding > conflicts > > > Stephen Woodley LAc > - > shanghanlunseminars.com > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service > > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at > Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese > medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Maybe Pennsylvania is different, but here the thought goes that insurance companies basically pay whatever they want to pay (within limits) and we can charge whatever we want to charge (within limits). The limits are pretty wide and change according to locality and changes year to year depending on what people charge. If I charge $250 (some do), I get the same amount as someone who charges $85, which is 80% of $85. As a result, when people charge very little, it goes into the database and then everyone else gets less. If people charge more, others get more next time around, but no one ever gets what they ask for. Also, it is cheaper in Altoona than Philadelphia. The insurance companies pay lobbyists to be able to cut fees and make restrictions on treatment, but they can't be too obvious about it or the consumer goes nuts on them for being greedy. It is a balancing act that has been going on for decades. Every state is convoluted. Some are socialistic (read: rip off the poor, meaning us). None are really honest and straight forward except if they just dont 'pay at all. That is honest and straight forward. Then the consumer pays what they want. David Molony " A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities and an optimist is one who make opportunities of his dificulties. " Harry Truman " Liberals claim to want to give hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to learn that there are other views. " William Buckley David Molony 101 Bridge Street Catasauqua, PA 18032 Phone (610)264-2755 Fax (610) 264-7292 **********Confidentiality Notice ********** This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure under applicable law, including the FTC Safeguard Rule and U.S.-EU Safe Harbor Principles. If you are the intended recipient, you are responsible for establishing appropriate safeguards to maintain data integrity and security. If the receiver of this information is not the intended recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, copying or storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender by return email and delete the electronic transmission, including all attachments from your system. ************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 interesting. what branch of law would one be looking in to find an atty who is knowledgeable about these issues? kath On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Emmanuel Segmen <mrsegmenwrote: > Kath Bartlett wrote: > emmanuel: > > actually, you cannot change insurance companies a higher rate than what you > charge cash patients. you may offer a reasonable (25%) time of service > payment discount. > > kath > ---------- > Yes, that was my point regarding fraud. Sorry if my post was a bit > convoluted. > > I've worked off and on for a fifteen years for a law office in Oakland, > California in the area of MD healthcare, not LAc. This issue comes up. > Generally discounts are appropriate for out of pocket patients with no > healthcare. > > I recommend as did Bill Mosca that people contact a lawyer in their state > for advice about all the things you mentioned. Legal ethics is somewhat > though not entirely different from the ethics in pure philosophy. I was a > philosophy student, not a law student. My sense from working in the law > office is that a " legal complaint " about ethical pricing would be competitor > driven rather than from patients or HMOs. Otherwise it's not clear who would > file suit against you or how they would make their case. > > Additionally in CA the Calf. Med. Assoc. is pretty forceful. A CMA rep > would regularly come into the clinic at ACTCM when I worked there in 1988. > Students had to remove their " intern " name tags in the clinic that year. CMA > is a powerful organization in our state. > > Gratefully, > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 Health law would be the practice area to seek. --Bill. On Aug 21, 2008, at 4:31 PM, wrote: > interesting. what branch of law would one be looking in to find an > atty who > is knowledgeable about these issues? > > kath > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Emmanuel Segmen > <mrsegmenwrote: > >> Kath Bartlett wrote: >> emmanuel: >> >> actually, you cannot change insurance companies a higher rate than >> what you >> charge cash patients. you may offer a reasonable (25%) time of >> service >> payment discount. >> >> kath >> ---------- >> Yes, that was my point regarding fraud. Sorry if my post was a bit >> convoluted. >> >> I've worked off and on for a fifteen years for a law office in >> Oakland, >> California in the area of MD healthcare, not LAc. This issue comes >> up. >> Generally discounts are appropriate for out of pocket patients with >> no >> healthcare. >> >> I recommend as did Bill Mosca that people contact a lawyer in their >> state >> for advice about all the things you mentioned. Legal ethics is >> somewhat >> though not entirely different from the ethics in pure philosophy. I >> was a >> philosophy student, not a law student. My sense from working in the >> law >> office is that a " legal complaint " about ethical pricing would be >> competitor >> driven rather than from patients or HMOs. Otherwise it's not clear >> who would >> file suit against you or how they would make their case. >> >> Additionally in CA the Calf. Med. Assoc. is pretty forceful. A CMA >> rep >> would regularly come into the clinic at ACTCM when I worked there >> in 1988. >> Students had to remove their " intern " name tags in the clinic that >> year. CMA >> is a powerful organization in our state. >> >> Gratefully, >> Emmanuel Segmen >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2008 Report Share Posted August 25, 2008 HI Bill hmmm I think we are perhaps discussing different aspects of the issue. I never said that the Board stated it was illegal to discount. The Board said that someone might file a complaint that they were victims of price discrimination, the Board would take this seriously and pursue an investigation. If the practitioner was found guilty of price discrimination, that practitioner would be disciplined. This discussion has come up a few times before. I wanted to know so I first called the Board and then consulted an attorney. I suggest that anyone that wants the most accurate information, they might do the same. (good luck getting a straight answer from the attorney). As a matter of fact, if people on this list are interested, why not call your state licensing agency and ask for the official position on sliding scale pricing and discounting and post them to this group?...I'll bet the answers are interesting...I'll bet more that there will be various answers from a single agency! Still, and correct me if I am misinterpreting your posting, you seem to be challenging whether the Cal Acu Board has authority or jurisdiction. I am not an attorney, but based on how their response was framed and the section of the law posted below, my attorney's opinion was that a formal complaint filed could lead to disciplinary action and that the Board ABSOLUTELY has authority to discipline your license. As far as criminal action...I never mentioned this, so it is a different issue. As my closing... I have given discounted and even free treatment to single parents in a bind and people who lost their jobs and will continue to do so. Some suggestions were to carefully track the financial hardship on those files in case of audit...or to bill them knowing that they wouldn't pay. Consult your attorney and CPA. I will continue to use my discretion to help people in need...but with my eyes wide open. Stephen Woodley LAc - www.shanghanlunseminars.com 4955. The board may deny, suspend, or revoke, or impose probationary conditions upon, the license of any acupuncturist if he or she is guilty of unprofessional conduct. Unprofessional conduct shall include, but not be limited to, the following: this goes on and on...the attorneys said that, in her opinion, the phrase: Unprofessional conduct shall include, but not be limited to, the following: gives the Board extremely wide scope on unprofessional conduct and that claims of discrimination are complicated...but now the Board is auditing your files And wait until you hear what the Board said constituted complete and appropriate patient files!!! -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software or over the web Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2008 Report Share Posted August 25, 2008 Stephen, You're absolutely correct that the California Acupuncture Board (CAB) has broad authority to impose disciplinary action with respect to a license that they have issued. But they don't typically enforce--on their own--areas of law outside of the Acupuncture Act. For example, allegations of insurance fraud would be investigated and enforced by the Dept of Managed Care, Dept of Insurance, or Department of Health Services. If the practitioner were found guilty of this sort of violation, the CAB might then decide to take subsequent action against his/her license. But I'm perilously close to hair-splitting here. More the point of the thread, I'm not clear on what sort of legal basis would be used for claims of " pricing discrimination. " Obviously, if one could demonstrate discrimination on the basis of race, gender, religion, or another class protected by state or federal law, this would be an issue. (In California law, only gender enjoys specific protection against discriminatory pricing--under the Gender Tax Repeal Act.) But otherwise charging different classes of consumers different prices does not, as far a I know, constitute an illegal form of pricing discrimination unless it is anticompetitive (covered under the California Unfair Practice Act) or deceptive (covered under the Consumers Legal Remedies Act). It happens all the time: airline tickets, university tuition, energy utilities, computers, movie tickets, hotels, and the list goes on... --Bill. PS... Sorry of posts seem oddly out of sync with the cadence of the list. But they've recently been taking days to post after I send them. On Aug 25, 2008, at 9:13 AM, stephen woodley wrote: > HI Bill > hmmm I think we are perhaps discussing different aspects of the > issue. I > never said that the Board stated it was illegal to discount. The Board > said that someone might file a complaint that they were victims of > price > discrimination, the Board would take this seriously and pursue an > investigation. If the practitioner was found guilty of price > discrimination, that practitioner would be disciplined. > > This discussion has come up a few times before. I wanted to know so I > first called the Board and then consulted an attorney. I suggest that > anyone that wants the most accurate information, they might do the > same. > (good luck getting a straight answer from the attorney). > > As a matter of fact, if people on this list are interested, why not > call > your state licensing agency and ask for the official position on > sliding > scale pricing and discounting and post them to this group?...I'll bet > the answers are interesting...I'll bet more that there will be various > answers from a single agency! > > Still, and correct me if I am misinterpreting your posting, you seem > to > be challenging whether the Cal Acu Board has authority or > jurisdiction. > I am not an attorney, but based on how their response was framed and > the > section of the law posted below, my attorney's opinion was that a > formal > complaint filed could lead to disciplinary action and that the Board > ABSOLUTELY has authority to discipline your license. As far as > criminal > action...I never mentioned this, so it is a different issue. > > As my closing... > I have given discounted and even free treatment to single parents in a > bind and people who lost their jobs and will continue to do so. Some > suggestions were to carefully track the financial hardship on those > files in case of audit...or to bill them knowing that they wouldn't > pay. > Consult your attorney and CPA. I will continue to use my discretion to > help people in need...but with my eyes wide open. > > Stephen Woodley LAc > - > www.shanghanlunseminars.com > > > 4955. The board may deny, suspend, or revoke, or impose probationary > conditions upon, the license of any acupuncturist if he or she is > guilty > of unprofessional conduct. > Unprofessional conduct shall include, but not be limited to, the > following: > > this goes on and on...the attorneys said that, in her opinion, the > phrase: > > Unprofessional conduct shall include, but not be limited to, the > following: > > gives the Board extremely wide scope on unprofessional conduct and > that > claims of discrimination are complicated...but now the Board is > auditing > your files > > And wait until you hear what the Board said constituted > complete and appropriate patient files!!! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2008 Report Share Posted August 26, 2008 forgive this next question, i don't have a phone book at my present location: is health law a sub heading of law you'ld find in the yellow pages? how does one find an atty who practices health law: by contacting the local bar assoc? kath On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 4:05 AM, Bill Mosca <mosca wrote: > Health law would be the practice area to seek. > > --Bill. > > > On Aug 21, 2008, at 4:31 PM, wrote: > > > interesting. what branch of law would one be looking in to find an > > atty who > > is knowledgeable about these issues? > > > > kath > > > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Emmanuel Segmen > > <mrsegmen <mrsegmen%40comcast.net>>wrote: > > > >> Kath Bartlett wrote: > >> emmanuel: > >> > >> actually, you cannot change insurance companies a higher rate than > >> what you > >> charge cash patients. you may offer a reasonable (25%) time of > >> service > >> payment discount. > >> > >> kath > >> ---------- > >> Yes, that was my point regarding fraud. Sorry if my post was a bit > >> convoluted. > >> > >> I've worked off and on for a fifteen years for a law office in > >> Oakland, > >> California in the area of MD healthcare, not LAc. This issue comes > >> up. > >> Generally discounts are appropriate for out of pocket patients with > >> no > >> healthcare. > >> > >> I recommend as did Bill Mosca that people contact a lawyer in their > >> state > >> for advice about all the things you mentioned. Legal ethics is > >> somewhat > >> though not entirely different from the ethics in pure philosophy. I > >> was a > >> philosophy student, not a law student. My sense from working in the > >> law > >> office is that a " legal complaint " about ethical pricing would be > >> competitor > >> driven rather than from patients or HMOs. Otherwise it's not clear > >> who would > >> file suit against you or how they would make their case. > >> > >> Additionally in CA the Calf. Med. Assoc. is pretty forceful. A CMA > >> rep > >> would regularly come into the clinic at ACTCM when I worked there > >> in 1988. > >> Students had to remove their " intern " name tags in the clinic that > >> year. CMA > >> is a powerful organization in our state. > >> > >> Gratefully, > >> Emmanuel Segmen > >> > >> > > > -- Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2008 Report Share Posted August 26, 2008 >>>Kath Bartlett, wrote ...how does one find an atty who practices health law<<< A.K.A. < Murphy's Law > !!! Also, you might check out M. Cohen at: http://www.camlawblog.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2008 Report Share Posted August 26, 2008 Perhaps contact the American Health Lawyers Association <healthlawyers.org> I don't think most lawyers will be identified as health law specialists in the yellow pages. --Bill. On Aug 25, 2008, at 7:18 PM, wrote: > forgive this next question, i don't have a phone book at my present > location: is health law a sub heading of law you'ld find in the > yellow > pages? how does one find an atty who practices health law: by > contacting > the local bar assoc? > > kath > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 4:05 AM, Bill Mosca <mosca wrote: > >> Health law would be the practice area to seek. >> >> --Bill. >> >> >> On Aug 21, 2008, at 4:31 PM, wrote: >> >>> interesting. what branch of law would one be looking in to find an >>> atty who >>> is knowledgeable about these issues? >>> >>> kath >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Emmanuel Segmen >>> <mrsegmen <mrsegmen%40comcast.net>>wrote: >>> >>>> Kath Bartlett wrote: >>>> emmanuel: >>>> >>>> actually, you cannot change insurance companies a higher rate than >>>> what you >>>> charge cash patients. you may offer a reasonable (25%) time of >>>> service >>>> payment discount. >>>> >>>> kath >>>> ---------- >>>> Yes, that was my point regarding fraud. Sorry if my post was a bit >>>> convoluted. >>>> >>>> I've worked off and on for a fifteen years for a law office in >>>> Oakland, >>>> California in the area of MD healthcare, not LAc. This issue comes >>>> up. >>>> Generally discounts are appropriate for out of pocket patients with >>>> no >>>> healthcare. >>>> >>>> I recommend as did Bill Mosca that people contact a lawyer in their >>>> state >>>> for advice about all the things you mentioned. Legal ethics is >>>> somewhat >>>> though not entirely different from the ethics in pure philosophy. I >>>> was a >>>> philosophy student, not a law student. My sense from working in the >>>> law >>>> office is that a " legal complaint " about ethical pricing would be >>>> competitor >>>> driven rather than from patients or HMOs. Otherwise it's not clear >>>> who would >>>> file suit against you or how they would make their case. >>>> >>>> Additionally in CA the Calf. Med. Assoc. is pretty forceful. A CMA >>>> rep >>>> would regularly come into the clinic at ACTCM when I worked there >>>> in 1988. >>>> Students had to remove their " intern " name tags in the clinic that >>>> year. CMA >>>> is a powerful organization in our state. >>>> >>>> Gratefully, >>>> Emmanuel Segmen >>>> >>>> >> >> >> > > > > -- > > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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