Is traditional medicine static?

December 20, 2004

> I find it amazing that you or anyone else would think that Chinese

> medicine is 'narrow or frozen'.

This subject is one of my favorites -

I came from a background of traditional practitioners in South India -

my Grandfather was a very orthodox Ayurvedic practitioner – he did

not believe in changing one thing in the traditional protocols as he

believed that the great vaidyas (physicians) were enlightened people

and had a much greater understanding of the human condition than we

do – he felt that the classic herbal formulas and therapeutic

protocols were developed through many centuries of experimentation

which created a workable system for healing the various syndromes –

to arbitrarily change formulas or therapeutics was seen as

foolishness. Whenever there was any dispute in understanding he

always quoted the Sanskrit scriptures as the only valid authority.

My Father who was trained since childhood by my Grandfather - came

under the influence of Mahatma Ghandi and a great Yogi –Swami

Sivinanda Saraswati who had been an Allopathic physician before

training in Yoga – both of these men advocated a path of self

realization and criticized the practice of using medicines and

doctors to deal with health issues – they believed that everyone

should cure themselves of their diseases – dependency on doctors was

seen as an obstacle to recovery and emphasized that if we do not

personally understand our disease and it's cause then we are

vulnerable to constantly repeating the mistakes that have caused

disease in the first place. So my Father studied many schools of

medicine under his teacher's guidance – he studied the western

schools of Naturopathy and Allopathy and the other major schools

related to Ayurveda – Siddhi and Unani – plus TCM and the school that

blends Ayurveda and TCM – the Tibetan System. Ultimately he called

himself a Naturopath. He spent his life developing new more efficient

and less stressful therapeutics taking information from all schools –

creating an absolutely new system based on a blending of concepts

from eastern and western medical systems – old and new. His system

is essentially a system of yoga and `natural' life based on living

according to natural law – including living according to the natural

cycles of life and climate. At 86 he is a perfect example of the

validity of his theories. He did not see his medical practice in the

same light as his Father's medical practice – he thought of himself

less as a physician and more of a life and health coach or advisor.

My Father's path is similar to the many systems in India, China, and

Japan where people practice the various systems of physical and

mental development like Yoga, Tai Chi, Chi Kung, meditation, etc.

informed by the traditional medical systems of their culture. Most

Yogi's as an example practice yoga based on the principles of

Ayurveda – just as the Chi Kung masters practice a system based on

TCM (like the Shaolin monks) – the Zen masters of Japan practice

advanced meditation based on the physiological theories of TCM.

My father taught me his concepts from my earliest childhood and I

started my yoga practice in my teens. My Mother had congenital

thyroid disorders so did many members of her family including me and

my sister. My Grandfather and Father both had worked on these thyroid

problems in my Mother's family members for several years with limited

success. When the thyroid extracts first came on the market in India

my father talked to a well known Endocrinologist who told him what

success they were having with these thyroid extracts – so after some

soul searching as a very strict vegetarian (these extracts were

derived from pig thyroid glands) – he decided to try these extracts

on my Mother and she had wondeful results and completely came out of

her life long hypometabolism. Then he gave me and my sister this

medicine and I believe it saved us from a life of sluggishness,

depression, and struggle. These events got me interested in

Endocrinology which was encouraged by my father – later Endocrinology

became my passion and my profession and I married an Endocrinologist –

we produced another Endocrinologist in our daughter.

So my intellectual perspective has been informed first by traditional

concepts coming from Ayurveda, Yoga, and TCM – later expanded by

Allopathic concepts. My personal vision is that tradition teaches us

the basics of life, health, and healing – human beings have

understood the basics of being human for thousands of years – and out

of this basic understanding have come many ideas about what to do

when our human nature is not functioning optimally. When medicine

went to China from India the Chinese took the basic truths of

Ayurveda and developed their own system of diagnosis and

therapeutics – just as when TCM went to Japan from China the Japanese

developed their own system derived from the Chinese system.

In my own understanding I use principles taken from Allopathy, TCM

(traditional and modern Chinese and Japanese), Ayurveda, as well as

many modern concepts coming from psychology and dynamic and energetic

systems.

The blending of modern and ancient understandings is going to create

a new and more powerful therapeutics than has been available in the

past. This process can not be stopped as it is attracting the

attention of many thinkers and researchers around the world. In India

and China as an example many of the leading practitioners are using

Allopathic medicines and techniques as a part of their TCM practice.

Many of those practioners are developing new therapeutic protocols

that never existed in traditional practice. My brother as an example

who is a traditional Ayurvedic practitioner sees no contradiction in

using hormonal therapy or antibiotics to facilitate and support his

traditional practice (he also uses several allopathic surgical

procedures ).

It is not necessary to reject the past science or the new science.

The only science that will survive is the science that works to help

relieve humanity from their perennial sufferings. Theory and

speculation have no validity until they have been demonstrated

effective in the laboratory of human upliftment.

I believe that many new therapies are superior to many past protocols

at least they facilitate and support the past protocols. If one

understands the basic principles of how disease is formed and what

the great masters said about what to do about these disease processes

then the world is full of therapeutic modalities that can help us

achieve these promises. Narrow thinking on the subject is not going

to be the direction of the future – the future of medicine looks very

positive to me – but it will not be the medicine of the old

practitioners – it will have it's own validity – very different from

the old systems but at the same time remaining true to the basic

understandings of the past – simply because their understanding was

of the basic truth of reality – there is no question of losing the

old – truth is truth – just as acupuncture was a revolution for

traditional herbalists – it in no way negated the herbal traditions

it was an addition and advancement on herbal practice. Medicine is a

living process and has never remained static – and will not remain

static in the future.

December 22, 2004

I appreciated your long post, and was fascinated with your personal

history and that of your family. However, I do have some questions,

see below.

On Dec 20, 2004, at 2:37 PM, vinod3x3 wrote:

> My brother as an example

> who is a traditional Ayurvedic practitioner sees no contradiction in

> using hormonal therapy or antibiotics to facilitate and support his

> traditional practice (he also uses several allopathic surgical

> procedures ).

>

One can use pharmaceutics according to traditional principles, but I

have a sneaking suspicion that countries such as India and China

haven't experienced the iatrogenesis from drugs the way we have in the

West. Overuse of antibiotics and steroids is rampant, and create many

problems and side effects.

When medicine

went to China from India the Chinese took the basic truths of

Ayurveda and developed their own system of diagnosis and

therapeutics – just as when TCM went to Japan from China the Japanese

developed their own system derived from the Chinese system.

This is very debatable, and sounds suspiciously biased to me. I don't

think historical records support that Chinese medicine was an import

from India, although both medicines can claim a lineage from ancient

times.

In my own understanding I use principles taken from Allopathy, TCM

(traditional and modern Chinese and Japanese), Ayurveda, as well as

many modern concepts coming from psychology and dynamic and energetic

systems.

There are different degrees of eclecticism, and different degrees of

mastery. Few practitioners in my (and historical) experience are able

to master a wide variety of medical systems, but skim the top.

Alternative medicine in the West is rife with 'eclectics' who have a

superficial knowledge of multiple systems. Obviously you are an M.D.,

so how do you present yourself to the public? What kind of patients?

What kind of medicine?

The blending of modern and ancient understandings is going to create

a new and more powerful therapeutics than has been available in the

past. This process can not be stopped as it is attracting the

attention of many thinkers and researchers around the world. In India

and China as an example many of the leading practitioners are using

Allopathic medicines and techniques as a part of their TCM practice.

This, again is debatable. Integrative medicine can be done in a

beautiful way or in an abominable way. No one is saying that anyone

shouldn't do anything. My experience, however, is that much of the

Chinese medicine practiced by integrative practitioners is watered down

and secondary to the use of biomedicine.

Finally, allopathic medicine is everywhere, all over the world. Why

should we have to use allopathic methods if they are so freely

available (I am talking as a Westerner, I recognize India may have

different needs)? Why shouldn't people develop traditional medicine to

the best of their abilities, and refer to biomedicine when

advantageous?

Thank you for your time,

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

December 22, 2004

Another thought. . . .

In the West, you can only use Western medicines if you are a medical

doctor. Alternative practitioners do not have the political power,

economic strength or legal mandate to use Western medicine as part of

their practice. Only western doctors can do this. . . .so this is

highly idealistic, in my opinion. Only Western doctors can practice

the integration you describe here. Also, alternative professions such

as Chinese medicine in the West are in their infant stages (even more

so Ayurvedic medicine, which is not a licensed profession in the U.S.),

and need to be clearly defined. Any integration such as you propose

would be premature at this point, like an adult (WM) marrying a child

bride (CM). Our profession, as our recent discussions reflect, need

to define ourselves more and build some strength. We cannot even agree

on what Chinese medicine is.

On Dec 20, 2004, at 2:37 PM, vinod3x3 wrote:

>

> The blending of modern and ancient understandings is going to create

> a new and more powerful therapeutics than has been available in the

> past. This process can not be stopped as it is attracting the

> attention of many thinkers and researchers around the world. In India

> and China as an example many of the leading practitioners are using

> Allopathic medicines and techniques as a part of their TCM practice.

December 22, 2004

Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:43:19 -0800, " " <zrosenbe wrote:

> One can use pharmaceutics according to traditional principles, but I have

a sneaking suspicion that countries such as India and China haven't

experienced the iatrogenesis from drugs the way we have in the West.

Overuse of antibiotics and steroids is rampant, and create many problems

and side effects.

Is this last sentence referring to the West/USA, or India/China?

I suspect iatrogenesis is equally rampant in China, though, granted, not

quite in " the way we have [it] in the West " , i.e. driven by one of the most

massive, expensive and sophisticated marketing efforts of all time. I do

know that antibiotics, when available, are used regularly by Chinese at the

drop of a hat, i.e. for common cold with a hint of fever. Increasingly,

newspaper articles report that the Chinese, with their growing affluence,

are readily falling into the same patterns of excess and ill-health which

we know so well in the West/USA.

Even over here we here have been effected by the haphazard

herbal-pharmaceutical mixtures which are distributed, without apparent

regulation, in China. Remember the " Jin Bu <something> " pills which were

outlawed here some years ago? I recall coming across them at PCOM back ca.

1990. I even got hold of some and tried them. They had a discernable effect

on tension headaches, with a touch of buzz or euphoria to boot. Long term

use would no doubt have resulted in less pleasant side-effects.

December 22, 2004

I was an unwitting victim of Jin Bu Huan. When I first arrived in San

Diego in late 1989, I had injured my shoulder and couldn't sleep. So,

I took some Jin Bu Huan before bedtime. Four hours later, I woke up

with racing palpatations, unable to breathe. I almost went to the

emergency room, but was able to rectify the situation by needling

myself at 3 AM. The next day, I spoke to Ted Kaptchuk about it, and he

told me that I basically had overdosed on a crude drug. Just weeks

later, a child died in Colorado after taking Jin Bu Huan.

I stopped using and recommending most mainland 'patent medicines' after

this incident, until I was able to determine which ones were free of

pharmaceuticals to my satisfaction.

On Dec 22, 2004, at 12:58 AM, wrote:

>

> Even over here we here have been effected by the haphazard

> herbal-pharmaceutical mixtures which are distributed, without apparent

> regulation, in China. Remember the " Jin Bu <something> " pills which

> were

> outlawed here some years ago? I recall coming across them at PCOM

> back ca.

> 1990. I even got hold of some and tried them. They had a discernable

> effect

> on tension headaches, with a touch of buzz or euphoria to boot. Long

> term

> use would no doubt have resulted in less pleasant side-effects.

>

December 22, 2004

This was referring to the West/USA.

On Dec 22, 2004, at 12:58 AM, wrote:

>

> > One can use pharmaceutics according to traditional principles, but

> I have

> a sneaking suspicion that countries such as India and China haven't

> experienced the iatrogenesis from drugs the way we have in the West.

> Overuse of antibiotics and steroids is rampant, and create many

> problems

> and side effects.

>

> Is this last sentence referring to the West/USA, or India/China?

I suspect iatrogenesis is equally rampant in China, though, granted,

not

quite in " the way we have [it] in the West " , i.e. driven by one of the

most

massive, expensive and sophisticated marketing efforts of all time. I

do

know that antibiotics, when available, are used regularly by Chinese

at the

drop of a hat, i.e. for common cold with a hint of fever. Increasingly,

newspaper articles report that the Chinese, with their growing

affluence,

are readily falling into the same patterns of excess and ill-health

which

we know so well in the West/USA.

I am sure you are correct. . .it is a matter of degree. I was simply

responding to what I thought was an over-idealized depiction of the

'integrative' practitioner prescribing antibiotics along with herbs in

India.

>

December 22, 2004

> I stopped using and recommending most mainland 'patent medicines' after

> this incident, until I was able to determine which ones were free of

> pharmaceuticals to my satisfaction.

>

How to know which ones available in the US are in that sense safe?

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

December 23, 2004

I, myself, only use products made by GMP standard operations. I don't

use the 'off the shelf' 'patents' in the little boxes.

On Dec 22, 2004, at 8:23 AM, homi kaikobad wrote:

>

> > I stopped using and recommending most mainland 'patent medicines'

> after

> > this incident, until I was able to determine which ones were free of

> > pharmaceuticals to my satisfaction.

> >

>

> How to know which ones available in the US are in that sense safe?

>

> Dr. Holmes Keikobad

> MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

> www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

December 23, 2004

It is not necessary to reject the past science or the new science.

The only science that will survive is the science that works to help

relieve humanity from their perennial sufferings.

Vinod(?),

The most difficult and critical element in any practice of medicine, IMHO,

is determining cause and effect relationships, not only diagnostically

between the root and the branch, but also of the relationship between the

diagnosis and choice(s) of treatment. CM provides diagnostic techniques and

theories coupled to a variety of therapeutic choices that bridge this cause

and effect gap in a way that uniquely makes sense for certain types of

conditions. However, the cause and effect gap between root and branch as

well as diagnosis and treatment is still often rather large, even with the

added perspective that CM has to offer. One then has to make a decision as

to whether they can personally bridge this gap more effectively with

additional details provided by further study of CM or by complementing it

with other perspectives, or both. I believe this is the reason that CM has

developed internally with eclectic practices throughout history, offering

tuina, acupuncture, dietary advice, 1000's of ingestible substances, qi

gong, now others such as acupoint injection, diagnostic schools from the hot

to the cold, and probably other tactics for diagnosis and treatment that

have not been effectively passed down. Throughout history, in China and

elsewhere, people have died or become seriously ill in the care of very

skilled healers from all disciplines. Unless that changes, I believe the

drive towards eclecticism is not likely to stop, in the endless search for

better ways to answer questions about cause and effect.