Back pain

[Guest guest]

Beijing Men wrote:

> I read most of the postings regarding the back pain. Most of them

> didn't know the whole picture of the back pain. To deal with the

> lower back pain you need to know the following:

>

> 1. What type of pain?

> Qi Stagnation: Sublaxations etc.

> Blood stagnation: Strain/Sprain etc.

> Blood & Qi Stagnation: Herniated Disc etc.

> Blood Stasis: Sciatica etc.

> Kidney Deficiency: Degenerative Joint or disc diseases, etc.

> And more.

> 2. Treatment?

> If you don't know these point, you basically don't know how to

> treat lower back pain: UB23, UB25, UB28 and Huatuojiaji.

> When you know these points, you need to know how to get the job

> done correctly. Please call me @ (206) 440-1634

> 3. Prevention?

> Inmobilize the lower back, do not aggravate the pain at the

> earlier stage. The pain is the patients' limit of movement.

> Body machinics is the key to secure your treatment results.

& #61656; Beijing Men, OMD, L.Ac.

& #61656; -------------------------

 

Hi Beijing Men,

 

You sound like a person with lots of practical experience but I am

uneasy with your definitive assertions of what is required to deal

with lower back pain. As I also happen to be extremely effective in

my practice in dealing with back pain.

 

In my model, which is based around the concept of disturbances been

generated by the patient's inability to express core feelings which in

turn affect one or more meridians structures which I call the Root (s)

and which may have a knock on effect on other meridian structures

(the branches) I find that lower back problems can be dealt with very

easily by working on the relevant Root meridian and very occasionally

,rarely,the branches

 

I have quickly dealt with back problems by sedating the appropriate

Root meridian that was distressed such as LU, LIV, SP, ST, SI LI, BL,

GB, I have also done it by appropriatedly tonifying Root meridians

like BL, KID, LIV, LI, to date.

 

My latest example is a patient who had back pain around right hip with

some sciatic pain travelling down the thigh. In her case amongs a few

others LU-2 in the left shoulder freed her 80% + in just one session.

 

salvador

[Guest guest]

Being a chiropractor, I do by default treat a lot of back pain.

 

Outside of the basic strain/sprain, it's almost always multifactorial, and

while acupuncture is an immensely powerful tool, I really think you have to

correct the mechanical issues as well through some form of hands-on bodywork

in order to get a comprehensive resolution to the more complicated cases.

 

Avery L. Jenkins, DC, DACBN, FIAMA

Chiropractic Physician

Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition

Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncture

Kent, CT

 

 

" There is no meaning in life except the meaning that man gives his life by

the unfolding of his powers. "

--Erich Fromm

-

" Rich " <rfinkelstein

<Chinese Medicine >

Monday, August 23, 2004 5:59 PM

Re: Back pain

 

 

> Hi Mike:

>

> > I am a big fan of using tui-na also and resonate with whatever Rich

> > has been sharing but I find acupuncture to be far easier to do with

> > less effort.

>

> Thanks for resonating. -)

>

> I am pretty convinced that " bodywork " preceeded acupunture and herbal

> treatments. From a practical point of view, a " barefoot doctor "

> probably had to develop a practical repertoire of modalities that

> could be used to service many patients at one time as he " traveled

> around " . Clearly, the way acupuncture is used in China, it is designed

> so that a given practitioner to treat hundreds of patients in a given

> day. This, in my view, is practical from a time and money making

> viewpoint. However, it does not speak to the issue of which modality

> provides the best results.

>

> In my view, tuina/qigong provides superior results because:

>

> 1) The practitioner does a " hands on " diagnosis _as_ he treats.

> 2) The client/patient is fully engaged with the practitioner. I

> personally talk to people all through the session which lasts from 1

> to 1.5 hours (sometimes more).

> 3) It treats all of the possible obstructions that may exist in the

> body - muscles, skeleton, sinews, viscera (the physical manifestation

> of the Shen) - including the primary areas of obstruction, the spins

> and joints.

> 4) It treats all of the energetic channels via qigong and indirectly

> via touch.

> 5) With this approach the Shen is released and no longer is stagnated

> which addresses, what I believe to be, the primary source of chronic

> illnesses - i.e. stagnation of the Shen.

>

> (A prior reference:

> http://www.isdac.com/newpage12.htm#Review%20of%20The%20Seven%20Emotions

> )

>

> In time, I hope, more people will be exposed to tuina/qigong so that

> they can make their own judgements. I personally would pay more for

> treatment that is rapid and permanent whether or not it was paid for

> by insurance.

>

> Regards,

> Rich

>

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

and adjust

accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

 

I really appreciate all this great help from everyone, but haven't

wanted to fill up everyone's inbox by responding to each person. I

think someone else might have talked about using SI 3 with UB 60. I

did ask if people prefer UB 40 or UB 60 for back pain though. I'm

intrigued by how many people have talked about using scalp points for

back pain because its not something that was emphasized at all in my

education. Aside from using Du 20, how do select the scalp points?

Do you stick to the Du channel, or also use the UB and/or GB

channel? Do you also use lower points, such as UB 40, 57, 58, or

60? Do you needle the scalp points forward towards the nose or

backwards/downwards towards the back? Thanks!

 

Laura

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Mike Liaw

<mikeliaw> wrote:

> Larry,

>

> I have used the SI 3 - BL 62 pair (not BL 60, as you do) and

> BL 57only a few times because

> 1) Scalp points (including Du 20) are good enough most of the

times.

> 2) I count on Du 20 to open Du Mai, in the case of back pain.

> 3) SI 3 is simply too painful for some patients.

>

> Separately, I have never learned/recognized SI 3 - BL 60 as Extra

Meridian points.

> (Where did you learn this? I am curious.) I did learn SI 3 - BL62

pair as part of

> Eight Meridian Crossing (or Meeting) points.

>

> Regards,

>

> Mike L.

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

 

To Dr. Jenkins,

 

>Outside of the basic strain/sprain, it's almost always

multifactorial, >and while acupuncture is an immensely powerful tool,

I really think you >have to correct the mechanical issues as well

through some form of >hands-on bodywork in order to get a

comprehensive resolution to the >more complicated cases.

 

Yes, this is pretty much the view that I have come to based upon the

experiences of my family and my friends/acqaintences. I wonder if this

is a widely held view within the TCM community?

 

 

To Hugo,

 

> I can't overstate how important the Hua Tuo Jia Ji points are in

>conjunction with the Governing channel and Governing channel

>influential points.

 

My doctor shares your perspective. Is this viewpoint emphaszied in TCM

schools/clinics or is this one that you have come to through your own

experiences.

 

To Robert,

>just wanted to mention too that i worked with a phenomenal tuina

>doctor at the school in Miami -- Gordon (Guorong) Xu. he did some

>pretty amazing stuff

 

Yes. My doctor gets similar amazing results. Much of it is due to his

30 years experience. Much of it is due to tha fact that he uses both

tuina and qigong to address the whole body and energetic meridians.

Also, his theory is very simple to apply so that one can adopt his

approach and achieve very good results within a reasonable amount of

study time.

 

Yes, I know of George Xu. He is very well known as a Chen style

Taijiquan teacher.

 

>Needling helps to move qi, but the best way to move

>qi seems to be to move the flesh around. And in particular addressing

>the back. This helps everyone. And I've had numerous patients with

>clogged sinuses that needles didn't seem to do much for but five

>minutes of tuina could free up.

 

This is very much what I have observed. Since my doctor's approach is

centered upon " moving qi " then tuina/qigong are very appropriate. I

have not seen any problems that could not be resolved using this

approach but I should emphasize that his qigong is very good - he has

been studying for 30 years - and his tuina is very vigorous. There are

patients of his who thought the vigor was too strong, and it probably

was. Some stopped treatments even though there was obvious progress -

which they felt was enough for the time being. The key, I believe, is

proper modulation and this is very difficult since it requires the

doctor and client/patient to be able to interact with each other

appropriately. It doesn't always work out that way.

 

Thanks all for your responses to my questions.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Laura,

 

there's two types of scalp points I use. The one I try first which

works most of the time is from " yamamoto's new scalp acupuncture "

(YNSA). You can find the book on amazon. The 'D' points are

excellent for knocking out a low back spasm. The others are the

traditional chinese scalp points which are descirbed in detail in the

shanghai acupuncture text, namely the sensory line in the lower body

area. Other people might have other points they use.

 

As a side note, I find the scalp points have to be very accurate. I

might have to reinsert a couple of times to get the right spot, and

it needs to be a killer AhShi point. But when it works it really

works. I've basically had all or nothing success with them, so I

tend to attribute no response in a patient to my inability to find

the right spot.

 

As far as needling goes, generally it's easier to have the patient

sitting in a chair. Then stand behind them and needle obliquely

anterior to posterior.

 

--brian

 

> education. Aside from using Du 20, how do select the scalp

points?

> Do you stick to the Du channel, or also use the UB and/or GB

> channel? Do you also use lower points, such as UB 40, 57, 58, or

> 60? Do you needle the scalp points forward towards the nose or

> backwards/downwards towards the back? Thanks!

>

[Guest guest]

I have to agree that some form of hands-on body work has to be involved

despite it can be fairly fairly minor, or, in some of ases, not at all.

I do, almost without exception, instruct the patients to make certain body

movement/stretches while the needles are on. These movements work

in synergy with the needles to unblock the yang meridians and effect in

physical, mechanical adjustment. Admittedly, this form of practice is among

the minorities even within my circle of practitioners, but I am really

hesitant to agree that every case has to be done with hands-on body work.

At gross level, I have to assert that whether one particular type of technique

can fix a problem depends on the particular practitioner's skill, not the

type of technicque per se.

 

Mike L.

 

Rich <rfinkelstein wrote:

Hi all,

 

 

To Dr. Jenkins,

 

>Outside of the basic strain/sprain, it's almost always

multifactorial, >and while acupuncture is an immensely powerful tool,

I really think you >have to correct the mechanical issues as well

through some form of >hands-on bodywork in order to get a

comprehensive resolution to the >more complicated cases.

 

Yes, this is pretty much the view that I have come to based upon the

experiences of my family and my friends/acqaintences. I wonder if this

is a widely held view within the TCM community?

 

 

To Hugo,

 

> I can't overstate how important the Hua Tuo Jia Ji points are in

>conjunction with the Governing channel and Governing channel

>influential points.

 

My doctor shares your perspective. Is this viewpoint emphaszied in TCM

schools/clinics or is this one that you have come to through your own

experiences.

 

To Robert,

>just wanted to mention too that i worked with a phenomenal tuina

>doctor at the school in Miami -- Gordon (Guorong) Xu. he did some

>pretty amazing stuff

 

Yes. My doctor gets similar amazing results. Much of it is due to his

30 years experience. Much of it is due to tha fact that he uses both

tuina and qigong to address the whole body and energetic meridians.

Also, his theory is very simple to apply so that one can adopt his

approach and achieve very good results within a reasonable amount of

study time.

 

Yes, I know of George Xu. He is very well known as a Chen style

Taijiquan teacher.

 

>Needling helps to move qi, but the best way to move

>qi seems to be to move the flesh around. And in particular addressing

>the back. This helps everyone. And I've had numerous patients with

>clogged sinuses that needles didn't seem to do much for but five

>minutes of tuina could free up.

 

This is very much what I have observed. Since my doctor's approach is

centered upon " moving qi " then tuina/qigong are very appropriate. I

have not seen any problems that could not be resolved using this

approach but I should emphasize that his qigong is very good - he has

been studying for 30 years - and his tuina is very vigorous. There are

patients of his who thought the vigor was too strong, and it probably

was. Some stopped treatments even though there was obvious progress -

which they felt was enough for the time being. The key, I believe, is

proper modulation and this is very difficult since it requires the

doctor and client/patient to be able to interact with each other

appropriately. It doesn't always work out that way.

 

Thanks all for your responses to my questions.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

 

Chinese Medicine , Mike Liaw

<mikeliaw> wrote:

> I have to agree that some form of hands-on body work has to be involved

> despite it can be fairly fairly minor, or, in some of ases, not at all.

> I do, almost without exception, instruct the patients to make

certain body movement/stretches while the needles are on.

 

It is quite possible that he population that I am seeing is the one

that has been " filtered " - that is, people who are unable to be helped

by chiropractors, acupuncturists, herbalists, etc. In the cases I have

seen (and this includes myself, my wife and my 18 year old son), there

are fairly hard physical obstructions in the joints, verterbrae,

muscular, etc. It is not clear whether they are inherited problems

(cold qi) or problems that have evolved over time, due to physical

injury, stress, etc. I would not call these minor since I couldn't

imagine how acupuncture or herbs could remove them, though daily

exercises probably could over a long period. It seems likely, from my

experiences, that there is a very high correlation between these

" obstructions " and the chronic problems that the client/patient is

experiencing.

 

Since I have never been through a Masters acupuncturist program, I

would be very interested the type of training that acupuncturists

receive either in the U.S. or other countries in identifying physical

obstructions and how to address them. For example, do acupuncturists

palpate the spine or joinsts for obstructions? If so, what does this

mean to them? How are problems in this area handled? I know that the

highly trained acupuncturists that I use to go to (trained in China)

never even looked at or mentioned the issues in my verterbrae which as

it turned out were very much involved in the lower back pains and

arthritis like symptoms that I was experiencing a few years ago. Any

comments would be appreciated.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Laura,

 

On using BL40, BL60 or not:

 

I do occassionally, depending on whether or not the qi is reaching where I

wanted to.

This depends on the particular patient in a particular session. (Here, I use

light palpation

or simly feeling without touching to make the decision.)

 

On whether or not I use Du meridian points or lower points:

Again, it depends, but in my cases, I have used none of the points you

mentioned.

I imagine they can be useful, depends on how you sense the patient at the time.

 

On how to select the scalp points:

 

Well, Rich mentioned one form of Japanese scalp acupuncture. There is Dr. Zhu

Ming Qing's scalp acupuncture (someone brought up the URL to a site that

described pretty well.) There is Shanghai text book which is from Dr. Jiao Shun

Fa.

I also believe Dr. Jiao has a book in English. There are a few other schools

that

are not as well known and mostly not available in English. They all have a

way to map the scalp to body parts. My suggestion: Pick anyone of these to

start learning and go back to read the cerebral cortex part of the physiology

and anatomy to find the connection. (Why there is a connection and how

they connect is a topic for separate discussion.) At the end, they should be

equally effective if you use the needling techniques properly.

 

On needling direction:

Some of the schools of scalp acupuncture indicate specific directions; some

don't.

Suggestion: start with one (doesn't really matter which one, IMO) and practice

reasonably well (effective for >60% of cases, as a recommendation) before

looking

at others and buid up to be >90% effective. You will then be called magical by

many

by that time:-) At then end, the direction of the needles depends on how you

want

Qi to be created and directed.

 

I hope this helps!

 

Mike L.

 

 

 

heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:

Hi Mike,

 

I really appreciate all this great help from everyone, but haven't

wanted to fill up everyone's inbox by responding to each person. I

think someone else might have talked about using SI 3 with UB 60. I

did ask if people prefer UB 40 or UB 60 for back pain though. I'm

intrigued by how many people have talked about using scalp points for

back pain because its not something that was emphasized at all in my

education. Aside from using Du 20, how do select the scalp points?

Do you stick to the Du channel, or also use the UB and/or GB

channel? Do you also use lower points, such as UB 40, 57, 58, or

60? Do you needle the scalp points forward towards the nose or

backwards/downwards towards the back? Thanks!

 

Laura

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Mike Liaw

<mikeliaw> wrote:

> Larry,

>

> I have used the SI 3 - BL 62 pair (not BL 60, as you do) and

> BL 57only a few times because

> 1) Scalp points (including Du 20) are good enough most of the

times.

> 2) I count on Du 20 to open Du Mai, in the case of back pain.

> 3) SI 3 is simply too painful for some patients.

>

> Separately, I have never learned/recognized SI 3 - BL 60 as Extra

Meridian points.

> (Where did you learn this? I am curious.) I did learn SI 3 - BL62

pair as part of

> Eight Meridian Crossing (or Meeting) points.

>

> Regards,

>

> Mike L.

[Guest guest]

I seemed to have left out the most important part. While the needles

are in, have the patient move around, and especially move into the

pain. If you have the right spot, it should subside. If the pain

doesn't subside, try to find another ahshi close by. You can

stimulate the needles while they're moving. One of the things that

makes scalp attractive is that the patient is free to move.

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " briansbeard "

<brian_s_beard@h...> wrote:

> Laura,

>

> there's two types of scalp points I use. The one I try first which

> works most of the time is from " yamamoto's new scalp acupuncture "

> (YNSA). You can find the book on amazon. The 'D' points are

> excellent for knocking out a low back spasm. The others are the

> traditional chinese scalp points which are descirbed in detail in

the

> shanghai acupuncture text, namely the sensory line in the lower

body

> area. Other people might have other points they use.

>

> As a side note, I find the scalp points have to be very accurate.

I

> might have to reinsert a couple of times to get the right spot, and

> it needs to be a killer AhShi point. But when it works it really

> works. I've basically had all or nothing success with them, so I

> tend to attribute no response in a patient to my inability to find

> the right spot.

>

> As far as needling goes, generally it's easier to have the patient

> sitting in a chair. Then stand behind them and needle obliquely

> anterior to posterior.

>

> --brian

>

> > education. Aside from using Du 20, how do select the scalp

> points?

> > Do you stick to the Du channel, or also use the UB and/or GB

> > channel? Do you also use lower points, such as UB 40, 57, 58, or

> > 60? Do you needle the scalp points forward towards the nose or

> > backwards/downwards towards the back? Thanks!

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

 

When I said " fairly fairly minor " I was referring to the hands-on bodywork, not

the

patient's problem. I do agree that in some serious cases, tui-na would take care

of

it quicker (I learned and practice tui-na serveral years before learning

acupuncture.)

What I am trying to say is, a highly skilled acupuncturist can go a long way.

 

On the training of acupuncturist. I am not sure if any school teaches palpation

techniques in the context of acupuncture courses to a reasonably good degree,

but I am sure the tui-na courses required by many acupuncture schools do teach

that. It is up to the acupuncturists being trained to combine these useful

skills

to assess and the patients. How well a healer combins all the skills learned

to address a patient's problem determines the course towards healing.

(Ehhh, of course! I am disappointed to hear that a highly trained

acupuncturist missed the key issue you had. (I was even more

disappointed that one of my worker's comp patient's MD missed

and ignored the patient's C3/C4 misalignment issue and got

" unhappy " when I pointed it out:-)

 

Mike L.

 

Rich <rfinkelstein wrote:

Hi Mike,

 

Chinese Medicine , Mike Liaw

<mikeliaw> wrote:

> I have to agree that some form of hands-on body work has to be involved

> despite it can be fairly fairly minor, or, in some of ases, not at all.

> I do, almost without exception, instruct the patients to make

certain body movement/stretches while the needles are on.

 

It is quite possible that he population that I am seeing is the one

that has been " filtered " - that is, people who are unable to be helped

by chiropractors, acupuncturists, herbalists, etc. In the cases I have

seen (and this includes myself, my wife and my 18 year old son), there

are fairly hard physical obstructions in the joints, verterbrae,

muscular, etc. It is not clear whether they are inherited problems

(cold qi) or problems that have evolved over time, due to physical

injury, stress, etc. I would not call these minor since I couldn't

imagine how acupuncture or herbs could remove them, though daily

exercises probably could over a long period. It seems likely, from my

experiences, that there is a very high correlation between these

" obstructions " and the chronic problems that the client/patient is

experiencing.

 

Since I have never been through a Masters acupuncturist program, I

would be very interested the type of training that acupuncturists

receive either in the U.S. or other countries in identifying physical

obstructions and how to address them. For example, do acupuncturists

palpate the spine or joinsts for obstructions? If so, what does this

mean to them? How are problems in this area handled? I know that the

highly trained acupuncturists that I use to go to (trained in China)

never even looked at or mentioned the issues in my verterbrae which as

it turned out were very much involved in the lower back pains and

arthritis like symptoms that I was experiencing a few years ago. Any

comments would be appreciated.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In school (in the US) I was generally trained to choose points based

on symptomatology and not on the characteristics of the tissue around

the points. There were certainly people who taught & preached about

the latter but the TCM curriculum didn't emphasize it. Instead the

emphasis is on finding the right point combination or secret point

that works some special magic. And for this type of treatment (if it

works) the tissue doesn't enter in to the equation. And if it doesn't

work then there must be another magical secret point combination that

will fix the patient.

 

So, for instance, channels were selected from the DU, inner and outer

bladder lines according to the diagnosis. But point selection for any

condition other than pain was never based on tissue characteristics,

and points other than ahshi were not considered if they didn't fall

on a main meridian. So a DU point might be considered because it

treats skin disorders or jaundice, with no regard for feeling what

that point feels like. Back shu points were the exception, and are

used for diagnostic purposes, but it wasn't emphasized much in

school. And if a treatment was successful, then the practitioner

tends to learn that the tissue didn't need to be addressed anyway.

 

This issue very well affects the treatment, epecially if the

treatment that was tried didn't work - why would needling a du point

with a nodule next to it work very well if that point is already

congested and needs to be worked? Jeffrey Yuen says that opening up

an extra meridian requires more than just needling the master point,

you have to probe and send a message to the body that this is your

intent. Why wouldn't this be true at least to some degree for any

point? I think learning the channel diagnosis according to the DU,

inner and outer bladder line focuses and effectively limits the

perspective of students in acupuncture school.

 

Tissue surrounding the spine and joints, or what to do with it was

mentioned in tuina, but not anywhere else. Consequently those who

put any attention to it at all tended to be more bodywork oriented.

And not that many students seemed to be that drawn to it. So how an

acupuncturist approaches this issue probably tends to vary depending

on preference of treatment style. I think one of the difficulties is

that diagnostic significance of nodules along the spine isn't

taught. If the back shu isn't tender but there's a nodule next to

the spine (maybe in closer than the HTJJ) then what does that mean?

Palpation of the DU meridian may offer some help, but what does it

mean if there's a nodule *next* to the du?

 

Problems in joints were diagnosed by the type of pain presented by

the patient - wind, damp, cold, heat, and treated accordingly.

Treatments vary - from needling ahshi points to HTJJ along the spine

or trying to needle in between the vertebrae along the du. Or for

joints using microsystems and distal points to local points that try

to get into the affected area. If a needle can reach it then usually

there's a better chance of getting a good result. So achilles

tendonitis will respond better than a strained internal knee

ligament.

 

Since then I've run across someone who combines the two worlds - tom

tam who is an acupuncturist in the boston area who uses the spinal

nodules to diagnose & treat, and is very accurate

with it. He uses a combination of fairly aggressive tuina along the

spine along with needles to treat.

 

--brian

 

> Since I have never been through a Masters acupuncturist program, I

> would be very interested the type of training that acupuncturists

> receive either in the U.S. or other countries in identifying

physical

> obstructions and how to address them. For example, do acupuncturists

> palpate the spine or joinsts for obstructions? If so, what does this

> mean to them? How are problems in this area handled? I know that the

> highly trained acupuncturists that I use to go to (trained in China)

> never even looked at or mentioned the issues in my verterbrae which

as

> it turned out were very much involved in the lower back pains and

> arthritis like symptoms that I was experiencing a few years ago. Any

> comments would be appreciated.

>

> Regards,

> Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

 

> but I am sure the tui-na courses required by many acupuncture

schools >do teach that. It is up to the acupuncturists being trained

to combine >these useful skills to assess and the patients.

 

This is an interesting point. I know that many TCM schools teach tuina

to acupuncturists but I have not seen an acupuncturist actually ever

use tuina skills. But my experiences are limited to a handful of

acupuncturists. The acupuncturists that I have known usually do some

diagnois using pulse, tongue, and skin, but never palpate the body. Do

you or acupuncturists you know actually palpate the body muscles and

tendos, the spine, rotate joints, palpate the meridians etc. to better

understand the underlying condition of the client/patient. If they

find the back of the body hard like a rock (I have seen two men with

this kind of situation), what would this mean to an acupuncturist?

 

 

>How well a healer combins all the skills learned to address a

patient's >problem determines the course towards healing. > (Ehhh, of

course!

 

Yes. :-) I guess optimally would be a set of skills that can be

learned in a reasonable amount of time that can assess and treat the

widest breath of problems. No one person can do everything, so within

this skill set there should be knowledge of other modalities and of

course there should be a way to become comfortable with referring a

patient to another practitioner.

 

In the TCM school that I went to for a short period of time, the

regard for tuina went way up when a very knowledgeable tuina

practitioner was recruited to teach in the school. Still, it seemed,

she was unable to fully suggest all that could be done with tuina

since she must conform to was is deemed acceptable within our culture

- though she would sometimes suggest that much more can be done with

tuina and qigong then she can teach.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Brian,

 

> Jeffrey Yuen says that opening up

> an extra meridian requires more than just needling the master point,

> you have to probe and send a message to the body that this is your

> intent.

 

Yes, this is very much in accord with the way I am learning tuina and

qigong. I must " open up " the point of obstruction and provide

directional " intent " . There are numerous techniques to remove

obstructions (hands, fingers, palm, elbow, forarm, kneed), as well as

ways to apply (e.g., penetration, rotation, pulling, pushing). The

direction for me is always inside-out. That is move the obstruction to

the surface and out through the extremities. I have found that for me

it is most appropriate to maintain a conversation with the client and

let the patient guide me. I know that there are acupuncturists who

also use " intent " within their practice.

 

 

> Tissue surrounding the spine and joints, or what to do with it was

> mentioned in tuina, but not anywhere else. Consequently those who

> put any attention to it at all tended to be more bodywork oriented.

> And not that many students seemed to be that drawn to it. So how an

> acupuncturist approaches this issue probably tends to vary depending

> on preference of treatment style

 

Yes, I found that certain acupuncture students definitely had more an

affinity for bodywork and body touch than others. I feel that qigong

practice helps nurture sensitivity.

 

> I think one of the difficulties is

> that diagnostic significance of nodules along the spine isn't

> taught.

 

Yes, I was struck by this also once I became aware of the significance

of spinal obstructions.

>

>

> Since then I've run across someone who combines the two worlds - tom

> tam who is an acupuncturist in the boston area who uses the spinal

> nodules to diagnose & treat, and is very accurate

> with it. He uses a combination of fairly aggressive tuina along the

> spine along with needles to treat.

 

This person seems to be a very good reference. Do you have an address

and phone that you can send to me by email. I would like to keep it

for future reference. Thank you very much for taking the time to

respond to my questions.

 

Regards,

Rich

>

> --brian

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...>

wrote:

> Hi Mike,

>

>But my experiences are limited to a handful of

> acupuncturists. The acupuncturists that I have known usually do some

> diagnois using pulse, tongue, and skin, but never palpate the body. Do

> you or acupuncturists you know actually palpate the body muscles and

> tendos, the spine, rotate joints, palpate the meridians etc. to better

> understand the underlying condition of the client/patient.

 

i do all the things you mention, and while the TCM portion of the programs in

which i've

taught do not emphasize these examinations, the orthopedic portions generally

do. IMHO

one can differentially dx orthopedic findings in OM terms just as easily as the

other 4

exams. but there is generally a disconnect between the TCM and WM parts of the

curriculum, and many students don't get why they need to take an ortho class,

study

hoppenfeld, etc.

 

i tend to classify findings in terms of levels of the channel system (sinews, 12

main, EV,

etc) and do different tx accordingly. but it's taken me the better part of a

decade to get to

this point. i do think practice becomes rather more idiosyncratic as one gains

more

advanced training and experience. so it is hard to say how acupuncturists in

general would

approach a given example, since there are myriad approaches. look at this back

pain

thread, all the different answers. i might tx 3 different cases of back pain 3

different ways

depending on what i find. so it's really hard to give any definite answers to

your

questions... they are important questions to discuss, but there is no real

hard-and-fast

rule. herbal med may be more uniform in its application, but i think only

because the TCM

model is so pervasive and other models have not yet emerged. in 20 years things

could

be different, who knows.

 

rh

[Guest guest]

Rich,

 

Where I am, SF bay area, many acupuncturists use tui-na techniques with a

varying degree of hands-on bodywork in their practice, fewer of them use

the palpation techniques to help diagnosis. Typically, practitioners who

have background in tui-na, qi gong, in addition to acupuncture tend to

use some of the palpation techniques. I personally do, to a higher degree

than typical. Yes, " intent " you mentioned often is use with all techniques

when treating patients. (Where I mentioned " depending on

where you want the qi to get to " requires having the intent *and* knowing

it gets there.)

 

Again, there is no hard and fast rules in terms of what to do when presented

a case. Using the fundamental techniques (4 diagnosis, 8 principles,

6 channels, etc) to diagnose is a safe way to go; using the typical

techniques taught in the school is a good way to start. But if one wants to

be a superior healing artist one'd better be much better than this.

A professional culinary school may produce good chefs but to be a great

chef one has to polish the creativity and develop a good " tast " :-)

 

Mike L.

 

Rich <rfinkelstein wrote:

Hi Mike,

 

> but I am sure the tui-na courses required by many acupuncture

schools >do teach that. It is up to the acupuncturists being trained

to combine >these useful skills to assess and the patients.

 

This is an interesting point. I know that many TCM schools teach tuina

to acupuncturists but I have not seen an acupuncturist actually ever

use tuina skills. But my experiences are limited to a handful of

acupuncturists. The acupuncturists that I have known usually do some

diagnois using pulse, tongue, and skin, but never palpate the body. Do

you or acupuncturists you know actually palpate the body muscles and

tendos, the spine, rotate joints, palpate the meridians etc. to better

understand the underlying condition of the client/patient. If they

find the back of the body hard like a rock (I have seen two men with

this kind of situation), what would this mean to an acupuncturist?

 

 

>How well a healer combins all the skills learned to address a

patient's >problem determines the course towards healing. > (Ehhh, of

course!

 

Yes. :-) I guess optimally would be a set of skills that can be

learned in a reasonable amount of time that can assess and treat the

widest breath of problems. No one person can do everything, so within

this skill set there should be knowledge of other modalities and of

course there should be a way to become comfortable with referring a

patient to another practitioner.

 

In the TCM school that I went to for a short period of time, the

regard for tuina went way up when a very knowledgeable tuina

practitioner was recruited to teach in the school. Still, it seemed,

she was unable to fully suggest all that could be done with tuina

since she must conform to was is deemed acceptable within our culture

- though she would sometimes suggest that much more can be done with

tuina and qigong then she can teach.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Rich,

 

This is his website:

 

http://www.easternhealingcenter.com/tomtam/

 

I attended one of his seminars a few years ago. I think it was

equally useful to bodyworkers and acupuncturists. His system really

works and I still use it as a reference now and then.

 

--brian

 

> This person seems to be a very good reference. Do you have an

address

> and phone that you can send to me by email. I would like to keep it

> for future reference. Thank you very much for taking the time to

> respond to my questions.

>

> Regards,

> Rich

> >

> > --brian

> >

[Guest guest]

Perhaps the real issue in acupuncture school is the fact you're in

ACUPUNCTURE school. (Even if you're in oriental medicine school,

it's still a TCM acupuncture and herb school). If we spent 3+ years

in tuina school with two classes in needling thrown in, we'd probably

not needle that much. And then we'd learn how much more we could do

with bodywork. But such that life is one must have an interest to

develop those 1-2 semesters into something.

 

I remember now the school I went to was going to offer an advanced

tuina class but it didn't run for lack of interest. And the

instructor was outstanding. They have tried to accomodate for this

somewhat by offering traumatology which goes into depth for treating

pain and goes in to some of the orthopedic tests that are used

specifically for certain joints & syndromes. And one of the doctoral

programs recommends that a fairly comprehensive musculo-skeletal

section be added to help better prepare students for pain and what to

look for.

 

Chinese Medicine , " Rich "

<rfinkelstein@a...> wrote:

> Hi Mike,

>

> > but I am sure the tui-na courses required by many acupuncture

> schools >do teach that. It is up to the acupuncturists being trained

> to combine >these useful skills to assess and the patients.

>

> This is an interesting point. I know that many TCM schools teach

tuina

> to acupuncturists but I have not seen an acupuncturist actually ever

> use tuina skills. But my experiences are limited to a handful of

> acupuncturists. The acupuncturists that I have known usually do

some

> diagnois using pulse, tongue, and skin, but never palpate the body.

Do

> you or acupuncturists you know actually palpate the body muscles

and

> tendos, the spine, rotate joints, palpate the meridians etc. to

better

> understand the underlying condition of the client/patient. If they

> find the back of the body hard like a rock (I have seen two men with

> this kind of situation), what would this mean to an acupuncturist?

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Brian

 

Hear, hear. Luckily, at my school, the primary acupuncture

instructor was also a master at tui na. He was very into palpation

even when doing acupuncture. I came from a bodywork background when

entering acu school so I was already using those skills to help

evaluate patients. Patients really appreciate it when they come in

with pain and the practitioner actually touches the area--even if

you don't get any real information from it from lack of knowledge.

But usually, you will get some kind of impression--swollen,

red=injury; soft, flacid=deficiency; hard, stiff=qi stagnation. I

use point palpation in almost every case to help me with diagnosis.

I was even taught the practitioner was remiss if he/she didn't

palpate at the very least in pain cases. Some healing, I think, can

take place with the acknowledgement that occurs with touch.

Palpation is always important, especially in pain cases. What if

there was a tumor and we didn't check? It's quick, creates

connection with the patient's qi, and can teach us much about the

human body that books will never be able to.

 

shanna

 

Chinese Medicine , " briansbeard "

<brian_s_beard@h...> wrote:

> Perhaps the real issue in acupuncture school is the fact you're in

> ACUPUNCTURE school. (Even if you're in oriental medicine school,

> it's still a TCM acupuncture and herb school). If we spent 3+

years

> in tuina school with two classes in needling thrown in, we'd

probably

> not needle that much. And then we'd learn how much more we could

do

> with bodywork. But such that life is one must have an interest to

> develop those 1-2 semesters into something.

>

> I remember now the school I went to was going to offer an advanced

> tuina class but it didn't run for lack of interest. And the

> instructor was outstanding. They have tried to accomodate for

this

> somewhat by offering traumatology which goes into depth for

treating

> pain and goes in to some of the orthopedic tests that are used

> specifically for certain joints & syndromes. And one of the

doctoral

> programs recommends that a fairly comprehensive musculo-skeletal

> section be added to help better prepare students for pain and what

to

> look for.

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Rich "

> <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote:

> > Hi Mike,

> >

> > > but I am sure the tui-na courses required by many acupuncture

> > schools >do teach that. It is up to the acupuncturists being

trained

> > to combine >these useful skills to assess and the patients.

> >

> > This is an interesting point. I know that many TCM schools teach

> tuina

> > to acupuncturists but I have not seen an acupuncturist actually

ever

> > use tuina skills. But my experiences are limited to a handful of

> > acupuncturists. The acupuncturists that I have known usually do

> some

> > diagnois using pulse, tongue, and skin, but never palpate the

body.

> Do

> > you or acupuncturists you know actually palpate the body

muscles

> and

> > tendos, the spine, rotate joints, palpate the meridians etc. to

> better

> > understand the underlying condition of the client/patient. If

they

> > find the back of the body hard like a rock (I have seen two men

with

> > this kind of situation), what would this mean to an

acupuncturist?

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Robert, Mike, Brian et al.,

 

Robert: .. but there is generally a disconnect between the TCM and WM

parts of the curriculum, and many students don't get why they need to

take an ortho class, study hoppenfeld, etc.

 

Rich: Yes, I had a similar experience with my anatomy and Chinese

medicine classes in one of the schools that I attended. The anatomy

class was taught as if Chinese medicine didn't exist - in fact I do

know if the anatomy teacher had adopted any Chinese medicine theory.

As a result, I felt I couldn't use one in relationhip to the other.

However, I did switch schools where the anatomy teacher did have

considerable training in asian bodywork and acupuncture and this made

all the difference in the world. Time very well spent.

 

MikeL: Yes, " intent " you mentioned often is use with all techniques

when treating patients. (Where I mentioned " depending on where you

want the qi to get to " requires having the intent *and* knowing it

gets there.)

 

Rich: I have found that " intent " makes all the difference in the

world, yet it is so intangible. I couldn't imagine how to teach it in

a regular bodywork or acupuncture class. The only way I can see

teaching it is through regular qigong practice. It is where one learns

to become Aware of (i.e., sensitive to) qi (energy) flow. But the

student has to be ready so it is either something one does in one's

life ... or doesn't. Younger people, I find, for the most part aren't

ready - other things are occupying their mind - so it probably has to

be picked up later on in life in studies outside of school.

 

Rich to Brian: Thanks for link to the website for Dr. Tam. His link to

his book store doesn't work but some of his books and seminars seem

interesting. Maybe I will have a chance to attend one of his tuina

classes.

 

Brian: If we spent 3+ years in tuina school with two classes in

needling thrown in, we'd probably not needle that much. And then we'd

learn how much more we could do with bodywork. But such that life is

one must have an interest to develop those 1-2 semesters into something.

 

Yes, I agree. It is difficult to develop a " well rounded " curriculum

given licensing, time, and money constraints. It is something that

persons must develop on their own. I think because acupuncture is now

more widely accepted by physicians and insurance, it is the more

popular career path. However, I hope that all those who graduate from

acupuncture school consider deepening their knowledge ot tuina which I

have found to be a modality with great effectiveness where acupuncture

is not enough. I know of many very successful doctors who owe their

success to the fact that they extended their skills and knowledge far

beyond what was initially taught in schools.

 

Thanks all for sharing your vast experiences with me. It very much

helps me put things in context.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Rich,

 

Thanks for summarizing the exchanges!

I think we are in agreement.

 

To expand a little bit on expanding the skills leading to a greater success,

my attitude is, keep learning and applying forever.

 

For example, just to stir up a little bit: few (but I know there are)

practitioners

do very well in " Watching Shen " (or, Wang Shen in Chinese) as part of the first

of the 4 diagnosis. I am fascinated by the ability to tell a lot about the

patient

after seeing the patient for only a few seconds before any verbal exchange.

I'd appreciate it if the experienced friends on this list can share some of

their

experiences on this.

 

Mike L.

Rich <rfinkelstein wrote:

Hi Robert, Mike, Brian et al.,

 

Robert: .. but there is generally a disconnect between the TCM and WM

parts of the curriculum, and many students don't get why they need to

take an ortho class, study hoppenfeld, etc.

 

Rich: Yes, I had a similar experience with my anatomy and Chinese

medicine classes in one of the schools that I attended. The anatomy

class was taught as if Chinese medicine didn't exist - in fact I do

know if the anatomy teacher had adopted any Chinese medicine theory.

As a result, I felt I couldn't use one in relationhip to the other.

However, I did switch schools where the anatomy teacher did have

considerable training in asian bodywork and acupuncture and this made

all the difference in the world. Time very well spent.

 

MikeL: Yes, " intent " you mentioned often is use with all techniques

when treating patients. (Where I mentioned " depending on where you

want the qi to get to " requires having the intent *and* knowing it

gets there.)

 

Rich: I have found that " intent " makes all the difference in the

world, yet it is so intangible. I couldn't imagine how to teach it in

a regular bodywork or acupuncture class. The only way I can see

teaching it is through regular qigong practice. It is where one learns

to become Aware of (i.e., sensitive to) qi (energy) flow. But the

student has to be ready so it is either something one does in one's

life ... or doesn't. Younger people, I find, for the most part aren't

ready - other things are occupying their mind - so it probably has to

be picked up later on in life in studies outside of school.

 

Rich to Brian: Thanks for link to the website for Dr. Tam. His link to

his book store doesn't work but some of his books and seminars seem

interesting. Maybe I will have a chance to attend one of his tuina

classes.

 

Brian: If we spent 3+ years in tuina school with two classes in

needling thrown in, we'd probably not needle that much. And then we'd

learn how much more we could do with bodywork. But such that life is

one must have an interest to develop those 1-2 semesters into something.

 

Yes, I agree. It is difficult to develop a " well rounded " curriculum

given licensing, time, and money constraints. It is something that

persons must develop on their own. I think because acupuncture is now

more widely accepted by physicians and insurance, it is the more

popular career path. However, I hope that all those who graduate from

acupuncture school consider deepening their knowledge ot tuina which I

have found to be a modality with great effectiveness where acupuncture

is not enough. I know of many very successful doctors who owe their

success to the fact that they extended their skills and knowledge far

beyond what was initially taught in schools.

 

Thanks all for sharing your vast experiences with me. It very much

helps me put things in context.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Mike Liaw

<mikeliaw> wrote:

> Rich,

>

> Thanks for summarizing the exchanges!

> I think we are in agreement.

>

> To expand a little bit on expanding the skills leading to a greater

success, my attitude is, keep learning and applying forever.

>

> For example, just to stir up a little bit: few (but I know there

are) >practitioners do very well in " Watching Shen " (or, Wang Shen in

>Chinese) as part of the first of the 4 diagnosis. I am fascinated by

>the ability to tell a lot about the patient after seeing the patient

>for only a few seconds before any verbal exchange. I'd appreciate it

>if the experienced friends on this list can share some of their

>experiences on this.

>

It is for this reason that I am exploring the ideas of Larre, Rochat,

Hara Diagnosis, etc. If one looks at the physical body (especially the

viscera) as a manifestation of the Individual Consciousness (Shen) and

emotions as the way in which Consciousness is expressing itself (like

an artist expresses through paint and colors), I believe it is

possible to gain a deeper awareness and compassion for the individual

beings as they struggle with the lessons they are trying to learn in

this world. I think that doctors and patients are necesssarily going

through a " healing " process, but more possibly a " transformation "

process from one being into another, and it may be the role of the

doctor to facilitate this transformation. We are all learning all the

time, and the doctor is learning as much during a treatment session as

the patient .. only the doctor doesn't always realize it. :-)

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Could someone give me any ideas of something I can

do to ease this pain of mine? I'd appreciate any help!! Thanks!

 

Read "Healing Back Pain, The Mind Body Connection" by John Sarno, MD. I saw a very impressive segment about him on Dateline. Sarno has cured 98% of his patients who have chronic debilitating back pain with no drugs, no surgery, no manipulations, nothing invasive. I'm reading his book now. It would be a good place for you to start.

 

Gloria

[Guest guest]

Hi Dee,

 

Doc has also come up with a series of back-exercises - you can find it in the files.

 

love

Lisa

 

-

d_bo89

herbal remedies

Friday, September 17, 2004 3:50 PM

Herbal Remedies - Back pain

I suffer from chronic back pain which spasms into my lower legs causing spider veins to appear on the back of my knees. My doctor prescribed muscle relaxants which only served to put me to sleep! And when I awoke the pain was there again. So, I've refused to take anyone of those pills. As the mother of four boys who lead very active lifestyles, I have to be awake to take care of them as well as enjoy their antics. (I've even tried massage therapy which does work wonders for the hour or so afterwards, but then back to square one.) Could someone give me any ideas of something I can do to ease this pain of mine? I'd appreciate any help!! Thanks!

[Guest guest]

Calcium and Magnesium are the best things for pain.... but also Kava Kava is really good, Lobelia is good for pain, and Chamomile.

 

Sharyn E. Cerniglia [sharyn.cerniglia]Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:33 AMSharyn E. CernigliaHerbal Remedies - Back Pain

My handyman had back surgery some time ago and has a cage in his back. He is a very hard worker and is frequently in pain. Valerian used to help, but doesn't any more. He has morphine that the doctors gave him but he doesn't want to take it. He has horses, so has DMSO also, just doesn't know what to do with it.

I gave him Arnica 30C (all I had with me) and told him to get a bottle of 200C, since the 30C helps.

What can he do herbally to help this pain?

Sharyn Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington

[Guest guest]

You can also give him the "Back in Action" exercise info from the Files section under "Doc Ian Shillington ND". Those are awesome!

Kelli

 

 

 

Lane Eddington [goldenpoems] Saturday, March 26, 2005 3:31 PMherbal remedies Subject: RE: Herbal Remedies - Back Pain

 

Calcium and Magnesium are the best things for pain.... but also Kava Kava is really good, Lobelia is good for pain, and Chamomile.

 

Sharyn E. Cerniglia [sharyn.cerniglia]Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:33 AMSharyn E. CernigliaHerbal Remedies - Back Pain

My handyman had back surgery some time ago and has a cage in his back.