RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

November 22, 2009

Correct - POILTICS.....but by whom?

This is nothing but a SCAM just to bilk exorbitant amounts of money out of

past graduates and new students amongst other reasons.

It has been stated before that the Florida Director of the Dept of

Education (Sam Ferguson) commented (unofficially of course) several years ago

that

the then and still current Masters in Oriental Medicine (2,800 hrs) added

to the 60 accredited college credits to get into a Florida AOM school is

ALREADY the equivalent of a PhD.

So WHY the need to con everyone?

The Masters degree should have already been an entry level doctor degree.

The answer is always..... follow the BIG BUCKS.

In 2002 I was brutally and unforgiveably attacked - legally being raped

just to get me out of the way after a few of us had worked out an arrangement

with key Florida legislators with support of members of the Board of

Acupuncture to legally change Florida's scope of licensure to a REAL entry

level DOCTOR state license. Florida legislators felt that with a maximum of 3200

hours ......that was all that would be needed.

Notice I said DOCTOR state license.......similar to Rhode Island's Doctor

of Acupuncture only in Florida we are primary care providers. It's

interesting to note that in the ACAOM propaganda they fail to mention Florida

David...that vast majority of licensees - if true and I don't believe

it.......would EXPECT that they would be automatically grandfathered.

Are those from Pennsylvania not competent? Oh I forgot for the longest time

you had to get an Rx from an MD before administering Acupuncture.

Richard

In a message dated 11/22/2009 9:54:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acuman1 writes:

Now. THIS is politics!

The vast majority of practitioners who make a living doing acupuncture and

Oriental Medicine have been in favor of this for a decade or more. It as a

mistake that has been festering and fracturing our profession since it was

decided not to have an entry level doctorate education in the first place.

Don't worry. There will always be ways to have cheap acupuncture

available, but those who wish to have and entry level program that provides all

the

tools from or field of medicine that are available have been ignored too

long.

We all loved the barefoot doctors!

We just need to have people who are competent and conversant to

participate in the nationalized health programs with DC's and ND's as equals,

not as

their technicians.

David Molony

On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:42:04 PM, Shantileigh <_shantileigh@shantileigh_

(shantileigh) > wrote:

Shantileigh <_shantileigh@shantileigh_

(shantileigh) >

First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

November 22, 2009 6:42:04 PM EST

_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

On the weekend of February 11th to 14th, 2010, the Accreditation

Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (ACAOM) will hold its annual

commissioners meeting. At this meeting, the fate of the first-professional

doctorate (FPD) in AOM will be decided as to whether or not ACAOM can petition

the US Department of Education (USDE) to develop standards for and enable

schools to pilot a FPD. If ACAOM decides that there is consensus from all

stakeholders in the AOM community, and the USDE agrees, acupuncture schools may

begin to appeal to their state department of education to pilot these

programs. This is a necessary step toward changing the entry-level for the

profession from the masters to the doctorate level.

What is the FPD? _http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.cohttp_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/node/3971)

Visit this blog for common myths about the FPD:

_http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.cohttp://wwhttp://www.chttp://www\

..cohttp://wwwhttp://www

..chttp://www.cohttp://wwhtt_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/10-myths-about-first-profession\

al-doctorate-acupuncture-and-oriental-medic

ine-fpd)

Why would anyone propose changing the entry-level standards for our

profession? _http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.cohttp://wwhttp_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/fpd-gold-rush)

We believe that the values of access to education, access to care, equal

rights, sustainability, and social justice are integral to the practice of

any medical discipline and that the FPD violates these critical social

values. The FPD will only exacerbate existing problems with education and

practice, care and delivery. The time to defeat the first-professional

doctorate

has come.

Show your outrage. Click, print, sign, and fax your petition of opposition

BY JANUARY 15TH! Petitions for students, practitioners, patients,

educators, employers, and administration staff can be found in these threads:

_http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.commhttp://www.comhttp://www.comm\

uh

ttp://www.c_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/forums/public-forums/first-professio\

nal-doctorate)

You do NOT need to be a member of CAN to participate in any of this. These

threads and blogs are all accessible to the public.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

November 23, 2009

Good job.

So the majority of LAc's who have graduated in the past approximate 12

years are PhD level educated and those who have been practicing even longer

are at least as equivalent.

I know in many states the scope is kind of narrow but in Florida we are 1)

primary care providers and 2) diagnose and treat illness and injury BY

STATUTE (LAW).

In 1994 the 2,800 hr education cost in Florida $15,000 for the 36 months

and now it is over $50,000.

Its obvious what's up with that.

So WHY does no one call it a money SCAM when that's exactly what it is?

One needs 60 credits from at least a Regionally Accredited two year

college to get into an AOM night-trade-school but when they graduate with the

so-called Masters they couldn't get ONE transfer credit into a Regionally

Accredited University.

In Florida - massage therapists who go to State Voc-Tech night-trade

schools are actually Regionally accredited and recognized .......much more so

than Acupuncture so-called 4 year Independent Colleges.

Since theState voc-tech schools are REGIONALLY ACCREDITED those credits

are accepted for transfer while acupuncture Masters Degree are LAUGHED AT.

More of the scam on acupuncturists????!!!!

Richard

In a message dated 11/22/2009 7:20:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

shantileigh writes:

On the weekend of February 11th to 14th, 2010, the Accreditation Commission

for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (ACAOM) will hold its annual

commissioners meeting. At this meeting, the fate of the first-professional

doctorate (FPD) in AOM will be decided as to whether or not ACAOM can petition

the US Department of Education (USDE) to develop standards for and enable

schools to pilot a FPD. If ACAOM decides that there is consensus from all

stakeholders in the AOM community, and the USDE agrees, acupuncture schools may

begin to appeal to their state department of education to pilot these

programs. This is a necessary step toward changing the entry-level for the

profession from the masters to the doctorate level.

What is the FPD? _http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.cohttp_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/node/3971)

Visit this blog for common myths about the FPD:

_http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.cohttp://wwhttp://www.chttp://www\

..cohttp://wwwhttp://www

..chttp://www.cohttp://wwhtt_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/10-myths-about-first-profession\

al-doctorate-acupuncture-and-oriental-medic

ine-fpd)

Why would anyone propose changing the entry-level standards for our

profession? _http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.cohttp://wwhttp_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/fpd-gold-rush)

We believe that the values of access to education, access to care, equal

rights, sustainability, and social justice are integral to the practice of

any medical discipline and that the FPD violates these critical social

values. The FPD will only exacerbate existing problems with education and

practice, care and delivery. The time to defeat the first-professional

doctorate

has come.

Show your outrage. Click, print, sign, and fax your petition of opposition

BY JANUARY 15TH! Petitions for students, practitioners, patients,

educators, employers, and administration staff can be found in these threads:

_http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.commhttp://www.comhttp://www.comm\

uh

ttp://www.c_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/forums/public-forums/first-professio\

nal-doctorate)

You do NOT need to be a member of CAN to participate in any of this. These

threads and blogs are all accessible to the public.

November 23, 2009

Now. THIS is politics!

The vast majority of practitioners who make a living doing acupuncture and

Oriental Medicine have been in favor of this for a decade or more. It as a

mistake that has been festering and fracturing our profession since it was

decided not to have an entry level doctorate education in the first place. Don't

worry. There will always be ways to have cheap acupuncture available, but those

who wish to have and entry level program that provides all the tools from or

field of medicine that are available have been ignored too long.

We all loved the barefoot doctors!

We just need to have people who are competent and conversant to participate in

the nationalized health programs with DC's and ND's as equals, not as their

technicians.

David Molony

On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:42:04 PM, Shantileigh <shantileigh wrote:

Shantileigh <shantileigh

First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

November 22, 2009 6:42:04 PM EST

Chinese Medicine

On the weekend of February 11th to 14th, 2010, the Accreditation Commission for

Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (ACAOM) will hold its annual commissioners

meeting. At this meeting, the fate of the first-professional doctorate (FPD) in

AOM will be decided as to whether or not ACAOM can petition the US Department of

Education (USDE) to develop standards for and enable schools to pilot a FPD. If

ACAOM decides that there is consensus from all stakeholders in the AOM

community, and the USDE agrees, acupuncture schools may begin to appeal to their

state department of education to pilot these programs. This is a necessary step

toward changing the entry-level for the profession from the masters to the

doctorate level.

What is the FPD? http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/node/3971

Visit this blog for common myths about the

FPD: http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/10-myths-about-first-profes\

sional-doctorate-acupuncture-and-oriental-medicine-fpd

Why would anyone propose changing the entry-level standards for our

profession? http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/fpd-gold-rush

We believe that the values of access to education, access to care, equal rights,

sustainability, and social justice are integral to the practice of any medical

discipline and that the FPD violates these critical social values. The FPD will

only exacerbate existing problems with education and practice, care and

delivery. The time to defeat the first-professional doctorate has come.

Show your outrage. Click, print, sign, and fax your petition of opposition BY

JANUARY 15TH! Petitions for students, practitioners, patients, educators,

employers, and administration staff can be found in these

threads: http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/forums/public-forums/first-p\

rofessional-doctorate

You do NOT need to be a member of CAN to participate in any of this. These

threads and blogs are all accessible to the public.

November 23, 2009

There's a lot of talk about this subject on my alumni ...

It was pointed out that the First Professional Doctorate is optional,

so schools can still keep their Masters-only programs if they want to.

K

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:53 PM, acuman1 <acuman1 wrote:

>

> Now. THIS is politics!

> The vast majority of practitioners who make a living doing acupuncture and

> Oriental Medicine have been in favor of this for a decade or more. It as a

> mistake that has been festering and fracturing our profession since it was

> decided not to have an entry level doctorate education in the first place.

> Don't worry. There will always be ways to have cheap acupuncture available,

> but those who wish to have and entry level program that provides all the

> tools from or field of medicine that are available have been ignored too

> long.

> We all loved the barefoot doctors!

> We just need to have people who are competent and conversant to participate

> in the nationalized health programs with DC's and ND's as equals, not as

> their technicians.

> David Molony

>

> On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:42:04 PM, Shantileigh

<shantileigh<shantileigh%40hotmail.com>>

> wrote:

>

> Shantileigh <shantileigh <shantileigh%40hotmail.com>>

> First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> November 22, 2009 6:42:04 PM EST

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>

> On the weekend of February 11th to 14th, 2010, the Accreditation Commission

> for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (ACAOM) will hold its annual

> commissioners meeting. At this meeting, the fate of the first-professional

> doctorate (FPD) in AOM will be decided as to whether or not ACAOM can

> petition the US Department of Education (USDE) to develop standards for and

> enable schools to pilot a FPD. If ACAOM decides that there is consensus from

> all stakeholders in the AOM community, and the USDE agrees, acupuncture

> schools may begin to appeal to their state department of education to pilot

> these programs. This is a necessary step toward changing the entry-level for

> the profession from the masters to the doctorate level.

>

> What is the FPD? http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/node/3971

>

> Visit this blog for common myths about the FPD:

>

http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/10-myths-about-first-professiona\

l-doctorate-acupuncture-and-oriental-medicine-fpd

>

> Why would anyone propose changing the entry-level standards for our

> profession? http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/fpd-gold-rush

>

> We believe that the values of access to education, access to care, equal

> rights, sustainability, and social justice are integral to the practice of

> any medical discipline and that the FPD violates these critical social

> values. The FPD will only exacerbate existing problems with education and

> practice, care and delivery. The time to defeat the first-professional

> doctorate has come.

>

> Show your outrage. Click, print, sign, and fax your petition of opposition

> BY JANUARY 15TH! Petitions for students, practitioners, patients, educators,

> employers, and administration staff can be found in these threads:

>

http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/forums/public-forums/first-profession\

al-doctorate

>

> You do NOT need to be a member of CAN to participate in any of this. These

> threads and blogs are all accessible to the public.

>

November 23, 2009

Most Masters programs are TWO years. Mine is four years, and that's on

TRImesters, which is basically three semesters per year.

So it amounts to six and a half years, packed into four. Why don't I get a

PhD for that? Most people get a Masters degree after to years and a PhD in

another two years for a grand total of FOUR years.

-

" Shantileigh " <shantileigh

Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:42 PM

First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> On the weekend of February 11th to 14th, 2010, the Accreditation

> Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (ACAOM) will hold its

> annual commissioners meeting. At this meeting, the fate of the

> first-professional doctorate (FPD) in AOM will be decided as to whether or

> not ACAOM can petition the US Department of Education (USDE) to develop

> standards for and enable schools to pilot a FPD. If ACAOM decides that

> there is consensus from all stakeholders in the AOM community, and the

> USDE agrees, acupuncture schools may begin to appeal to their state

> department of education to pilot these programs. This is a necessary step

> toward changing the entry-level for the profession from the masters to the

> doctorate level.

>

> What is the FPD? http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/node/3971

>

> Visit this blog for common myths about the FPD:

>

http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/10-myths-about-first-professiona\

l-doctorate-acupuncture-and-oriental-medicine-fpd

>

> Why would anyone propose changing the entry-level standards for our

> profession? http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/fpd-gold-rush

>

> We believe that the values of access to education, access to care, equal

> rights, sustainability, and social justice are integral to the practice of

> any medical discipline and that the FPD violates these critical social

> values. The FPD will only exacerbate existing problems with education and

> practice, care and delivery. The time to defeat the first-professional

> doctorate has come.

>

> Show your outrage. Click, print, sign, and fax your petition of opposition

> BY JANUARY 15TH! Petitions for students, practitioners, patients,

> educators, employers, and administration staff can be found in these

> threads:

>

http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/forums/public-forums/first-profession\

al-doctorate

>

> You do NOT need to be a member of CAN to participate in any of this. These

> threads and blogs are all accessible to the public.

>

> ---

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine

> and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

November 23, 2009

Sorry to say we have no chance of sitting at the table of physicians as

equals......especially by hoping and dreaming.

One must TAKE and DEMAND such a position of being equal....... by lobbying

in your respective states.

We did exactly that in Florida since 1998.......became primary care

providers; received prescriptive rights for ALL needles used in modern oriental

medicine including acupuncture injection therapy; use lab and imaging test

findings; gained the use of the titles Acupuncture Physician and Doctor of

Oriental Medicine --- to name but a few.

In Florida the allopathic association lawyers told me in 2000 (when I was

legislative chair for the primary association) that it would be " a cold day

in hell that their Board of Governors would allow Florida LAc's to

continue to use the title Acupuncture Physician " which existed in

Quasi-Legislated

Code Rule since 1989. It took eleven years and they lost that battle.

In Florida, MDs without even one hour of education can use acupuncture

needles and get insurance reimbursement and you think you can really sit down

with these people and expect anything but subservience?

Acupuncture WAS already usurped from the get-go circa 1970-73 when the FDA

totally locked down acupuncture needles as Class III allopathic

INVESTIGATIONAL hospital medical devices which took until 1996 when they

upgraded to

Class II hospital medical devices needing prescriptive rights.

Ever wonder WHY Midwives and Licensed Social Case Workers are already

statutory Medicare Providers and Acupuncturists are not?

Ever wonder WHY acupuncture education was side stepped into

night-trade-schools OUTSIDE the regional accreditation system and into a very

lucrative

cottage industry?

Ever wonder WHY acupuncture education was not brought in through the two

year community colleges which have always been regionally accredited?

The system wants to drain you of any and ALL monies you have. Now it's

$50,000 for the so-called Masters Degree which should already be equivalent to

a PhD and then another $40,000 + for the NON PhD Research Doctoral Degree.

And there are absolutely NO guarantees you will be: 1) equals to

allopathic physicians no less chiropractors; 2) recognized by and reimbursed by

ALL

medical reimbursement plans.

And best yet there might be....will be a job waiting for you to work for

an MD who knows absolutely nothing for maybe $10 per hour.

That might be what you want.....but I won't be scammed anymore. One shot is

all they get.

NCCAM just responded to a challenge I made just the other day regarding

their December symposium on research whether or not CAM works.....and I quote

the most important detail of their response:

" Also, as a Federal research agency, we do not evaluate treatments or

the results of research not funded by our Center. Usually, a research

project is carried out after a researcher proposes a study and submits a grant

application, which goes through a peer review by other scientists. "

They have openly ADMITTED that they DO NOT evaluate any treatments or the

results of others research just their own BIASED projects.

Elevate yourself by the political process instead of succumbing to the

cottage industry of night-trade-schools.

Richard

In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

jensmeister writes:

This is so sad.

At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching critical

mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals are

starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting could

prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level.

If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to take

our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!!

If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be usurped

by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we

will be left wondering what happened.

If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!!

And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their own

profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get one. But

let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. "

Jens Maassen L.Ac.

November 23, 2009

Jens

I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see the

LAW -Practice Scope?

If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a

wishing/hoping position.

The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40 states

while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners as

primary care providers.

So from our position we would say............just because YOU are NOT now

diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER don't

force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do what we

already do......which is functioning as a physician.

Richard

In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

jensmeister writes:

This is so sad.

At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching critical

mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals are

starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting could

prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level.

If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to take

our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!!

If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be usurped

by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we

will be left wondering what happened.

If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!!

And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their own

profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get one. But

let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. "

Jens Maassen L.Ac.

_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine ) , " Shantileigh "

<shantileigh@sha> wrote:

>

> On the weekend of February 11th to 14th, 2010, the Accreditation

Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (ACAOM) will hold its annual

commissioners meeting. At this meeting, the fate of the first-professional

doctorate (FPD) in AOM will be decided as to whether or not ACAOM can petition

the US Department of Education (USDE) to develop standards for and enable

schools to pilot a FPD. If ACAOM decides that there is consensus from all

stakeholders in the AOM community, and the USDE agrees, acupuncture schools

may begin to appeal to their state department of education to pilot these

programs. This is a necessary step toward changing the entry-level for the

profession from the masters to the doctorate level.

>

> What is the FPD? _http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.cohttp_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/node/3971)

>

> Visit this blog for common myths about the FPD:

_http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.cohttp://wwhttp://www.chttp://www\

..cohttp://wwwhttp://ww

w.chttp://www.cohttp://wwhtt_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/10-myths-about-first-profession\

al-doctorate-acupuncture-and-oriental-medi

cine-fpd)

>

> Why would anyone propose changing the entry-level standards for our

profession? _http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.cohttp://wwhttp_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/fpd-gold-rush)

>

> We believe that the values of access to education, access to care, equal

rights, sustainability, and social justice are integral to the practice of

any medical discipline and that the FPD violates these critical social

values. The FPD will only exacerbate existing problems with education and

practice, care and delivery. The time to defeat the first-professional

doctorate has come.

>

> Show your outrage. Click, print, sign, and fax your petition of

opposition BY JANUARY 15TH! Petitions for students, practitioners, patients,

educators, employers, and administration staff can be found in these threads:

_http://www.communithttp://www.commuhttp://www.commhttp://www.comhttp://www.comm

uhttp://www.c_

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/forums/public-forums/first-professio\

nal-doctorate)

>

> You do NOT need to be a member of CAN to participate in any of this.

These threads and blogs are all accessible to the public.

>

November 23, 2009

This is so sad.

At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching critical mass,

it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals are starting to

consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting could prevent us from

elevating ourselves to the next level.

If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to take our

rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!!

If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be usurped by

professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we will be left

wondering what happened.

If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!!

And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their own

profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get one. But let

the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. "

Jens Maassen L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine , " Shantileigh "

<shantileigh wrote:

>

> On the weekend of February 11th to 14th, 2010, the Accreditation Commission

for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (ACAOM) will hold its annual commissioners

meeting. At this meeting, the fate of the first-professional doctorate (FPD) in

AOM will be decided as to whether or not ACAOM can petition the US Department of

Education (USDE) to develop standards for and enable schools to pilot a FPD. If

ACAOM decides that there is consensus from all stakeholders in the AOM

community, and the USDE agrees, acupuncture schools may begin to appeal to their

state department of education to pilot these programs. This is a necessary step

toward changing the entry-level for the profession from the masters to the

doctorate level.

>

> What is the FPD? http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/node/3971

>

> Visit this blog for common myths about the FPD:

http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/10-myths-about-first-professiona\

l-doctorate-acupuncture-and-oriental-medicine-fpd

>

> Why would anyone propose changing the entry-level standards for our

profession? http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/fpd-gold-rush

>

> We believe that the values of access to education, access to care, equal

rights, sustainability, and social justice are integral to the practice of any

medical discipline and that the FPD violates these critical social values. The

FPD will only exacerbate existing problems with education and practice, care and

delivery. The time to defeat the first-professional doctorate has come.

>

> Show your outrage. Click, print, sign, and fax your petition of opposition BY

JANUARY 15TH! Petitions for students, practitioners, patients, educators,

employers, and administration staff can be found in these threads:

http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/forums/public-forums/first-profession\

al-doctorate

>

> You do NOT need to be a member of CAN to participate in any of this. These

threads and blogs are all accessible to the public.

>

November 23, 2009

We should keep in mind that most people earning a Master's in 2

years already have a bachelor's in the same field!!!

Acupuncture school starts with:

" the sun is yang and the moon is yin, day is yang and night is

yin "

this is like starting in kindergarten and getting a Master's in

only 3 years

Stephen Woodley LAc

[1]www.shanghanlunseminars.com

References

1. http://www.shanghanlunseminars.com/

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and

love email again

November 23, 2009

Good point of view, Stephen. Exactly this.

stephen woodley

Monday, November 23, 2009 4:26 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

We should keep in mind that most people earning a Master's in 2

years already have a bachelor's in the same field!!!

Acupuncture school starts with:

" the sun is yang and the moon is yin, day is yang and night is

yin "

this is like starting in kindergarten and getting a Master's in

only 3 years

Stephen Woodley LAc

[1]www.shanghanlunseminars.com

References

1. http://www.shanghanlunseminars.com/

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and

love email again

November 23, 2009

Most of my classmates, including myself all had Bachelors degrees when we

started.

-

" stephen woodley " <learntcm

Monday, November 23, 2009 12:26 PM

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> We should keep in mind that most people earning a Master's in 2

> years already have a bachelor's in the same field!!!

> Acupuncture school starts with:

> " the sun is yang and the moon is yin, day is yang and night is

> yin "

> this is like starting in kindergarten and getting a Master's in

> only 3 years

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

> [1]www.shanghanlunseminars.com

>

> References

>

> 1. http://www.shanghanlunseminars.com/

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and

> love email again

>

November 23, 2009

Mercurius wrote:

Most of my classmates, including myself all had Bachelors degrees

when we

started.

Stephen:

Sure, but I bet that NONE had a BS in TCM...

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and

love email again

November 24, 2009

My girlfriend had a Masters Degree is theology. She got a Phd in Law.

What does one have to do with the other? Many of us did have degrees or

extensive work experience in biology or the health care field, though.

-

" stephen woodley " <learntcm

Monday, November 23, 2009 4:24 PM

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> Mercurius wrote:

>

> Most of my classmates, including myself all had Bachelors degrees

> when we

> started.

>

> Stephen:

> Sure, but I bet that NONE had a BS in TCM...

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

> www.shanghanlunseminars.com

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and

> love email again

>

November 24, 2009

Doctors of chiropractic become doctors after 4000 + hours of education..

In the current DAOM programs, most are 1200+ hours on top of your Masters,

which varies between 2100 - 3400 hours, depending on the school you

attended,

for a grand total of 3300-4600 hours.

Most schools around the country only require 2 years of college for

entrance.

The FDP should streamline the process.

One thing for sure, is there needs to be more consistency in titles,

entrance requirements and academic requirements in the education of a

Chinese medicine practitioner.

Here are the titles out there... L.Ac., R.Ac,.C.Ac., DOM, DAOM, OMD, AP....

Every state has different rules for the practice... in some states, you

can't practice acupuncture at all, but a dentist can.

Some schools are 2100 hours, others go up to 3400...

There's no wonder that people outside of the acupuncture world are confused

about what we do and what our training entails.

K

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

magisterium_magnum wrote:

>

> My girlfriend had a Masters Degree is theology. She got a Phd in Law.

> What does one have to do with the other? Many of us did have degrees or

> extensive work experience in biology or the health care field, though.

>

> -

> " stephen woodley " <learntcm <learntcm%40fastmail.fm>>

> To:

<Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>

> >

> Monday, November 23, 2009 4:24 PM

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> >

> > Mercurius wrote:

> >

> > Most of my classmates, including myself all had Bachelors degrees

> > when we

> > started.

> >

> > Stephen:

> > Sure, but I bet that NONE had a BS in TCM...

> >

> > Stephen Woodley LAc

> > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> >

> > --

> > http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and

> > love email again

> >

November 24, 2009

I do practice in California and am considered a primary care provider that can

diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand what that has to do with my

desire to support a unified education at a level that qualifies for a FPD.

If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not as a

technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree is a

requirement.

Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a shared patient

and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll be talking to the

receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you are a Doctor and you'll get

through to the MD.

That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at the table

as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take.

I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to fight to

establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be doing it from

a more elevated podium.

And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will coexist with a

Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is forced to do anything.

But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like to

transport our profession to the next level?

Respectfully

Jens Maassen L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote:

>

> Jens

>

> I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see the

> LAW -Practice Scope?

>

> If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a

> wishing/hoping position.

>

> The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40 states

> while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners as

> primary care providers.

>

> So from our position we would say............just because YOU are NOT now

> diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER don't

> force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do what we

> already do......which is functioning as a physician.

>

> Richard

In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> jensmeister writes:

>

> This is so sad.

> At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching critical

> mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals are

> starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting could

> prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level.

> If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to take

> our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!!

> If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be usurped

> by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we

> will be left wondering what happened.

> If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!!

> And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their own

> profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get one. But

> let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. "

>

> Jens Maassen L.Ac.

> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

> (Chinese Medicine ) , " Shantileigh "

<shantileigh@sha> wrote:

>

November 24, 2009

I personally don't see what's wrong with the current state of affairs:

1. That the licensure and right to practice is regulated by the states, and

that licensure is predicated upon graduating from an ACAOM accredited Master's

program.

2. Should a licensed practitioner seek a more advanced level of education,

there is the DAOM option. As we have spoken of, most DAOM programs are 2 years,

DAOM's learn academics and clinical skills not necessarily available to

Master's students , and are entitled to call themselves doctors. In the

networking world in which we live and work, that title should definitely mean

greater referrals from other medical professionals and higher income. What else

(such as greater accessability to patients in a hospital setting, for example)

remains to be seen, but personally, I have been willing to take the chance based

upon the potential benefit. There is no question that I am a better

practitioner having nearly completed my first of 2 years.

The only problems that I see in the current state of affairs, are the following,

and from what I understand they are being resolved:

1. I believe that Master's students should be required to have a Bachelor's

degree in order to attend.

2. I believe that greater selectivity should go into the admissions process,

and entrance should not be automatic.

3. I believe that Master's programs should be 4 full years, should have a much

more rigorous Western Science component and should have greater accountability

for their clinical internships. Mine was a joke, and the amount of patients

that I saw was certainly inadequate to properly prepare me for clinical

practice.

The schools really need to make a greater effort to promote their clinics for

the benefit of interns.

Please explain to me, therefore, what would be the advantage of an

all-inclusive, first professional doctorate?What is wrong with giving a student

the option that they currently have of either going 4 years, getting a masters,

and being no less of a professional as a MSW, or MPT? Or if the student

chooses, let them continue for 2 more years and get their DAOM? Again, though,

I believe that it is our responsibility to properly promote and define just what

we are, what a DAOM is, as the MDs, DOs and DCs have defined themselves.

Respectfully,

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Mon, November 23, 2009 10:13:08 PM

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

Doctors of chiropractic become doctors after 4000 + hours of education..

In the current DAOM programs, most are 1200+ hours on top of your Masters,

which varies between 2100 - 3400 hours, depending on the school you

attended,

for a grand total of 3300-4600 hours.

Most schools around the country only require 2 years of college for

entrance.

The FDP should streamline the process.

One thing for sure, is there needs to be more consistency in titles,

entrance requirements and academic requirements in the education of a

Chinese medicine practitioner.

Here are the titles out there... L.Ac., R.Ac,.C.Ac., DOM, DAOM, OMD, AP....

Every state has different rules for the practice... in some states, you

can't practice acupuncture at all, but a dentist can.

Some schools are 2100 hours, others go up to 3400...

There's no wonder that people outside of the acupuncture world are confused

about what we do and what our training entails.

K

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:24 PM, MercuriusTrismegistus <

magisterium_magnum wrote:

>

> My girlfriend had a Masters Degree is theology. She got a Phd in Law.

> What does one have to do with the other? Many of us did have degrees or

> extensive work experience in biology or the health care field, though.

>

> -

> " stephenwoodley " <learntcm <learntcm%40fastmail.fm>>

> To:

<Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>

> >

> Monday, November 23, 2009 4:24 PM

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> >

> > Mercurius wrote:

> >

> > Most of my classmates, including myself all had Bachelors degrees

> > when we

> > started.

> >

> > Stephen:

> > Sure, but I bet that NONE had a BS in TCM...

> >

> > Stephen WoodleyLAc

> > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> >

> > --

> > http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and

> > love email again

> >

November 24, 2009

Michael

Resist giving legal advice of the BAR in your state will come after

you....especially if that advice is TOTALLY INCORRECT.

As pointed to in many many previous communications....FEDERAL CASE LAW says

its NOT false advertising.

The cottage industry of night-trade-schools selling high priced non-PhD

so-called research degrees for the use of doctor title is where the actual

FRAUD might be located.

Richard

Richard A Freiberg OMD DAc AP LAc

In a message dated 11/24/2009 12:04:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

This really is false advertising at its best. So, for about $200 a year

you can call yourself a doctor, even though you lack the actual degree and

do not live anywhere near Rhode Islan. Kind of weird, huh?

November 24, 2009

Michael

The Chiropractic profession is no different.

In Florida there are three distinct associations.

a) those who think of themselves and act as MDs

b) those who wish to just be back-crackers

and

c) those who wish to still live in the dark ages.

Then there are states where DCs can do injection therapy, states where they

can't and the same goes for the use of acupuncture needles. So no

consensus.

So if the DCs haven't gotten a national coordinated act together what makes

anyone think LAc's ever will?

Richard

In a message dated 11/24/2009 11:27:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

John,

Part of this responsibility belongs to our schools and should be part of

our education. The profession is very weak when it comes to practice mgmt,

ethics and legal issues in my experience.

As for legal designations, that is a matter that state associations must

grapple with on a state by state basis. Some states have fought hard to

allow us usage of doctor or physician titles and have a scope of practice that

is more worldly while others, largely due to the practitioners, want to

keep us lowkey and under the radar.

When you find a consensus, that is the maximum level of agreement

established. Think of this as a need to expand our mindset in states with poor

statutes.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

November 24, 2009

In Florida the use of Doctor and Physician titles are NOT considered fraud

or deceptive in advertising pursuant to the Quasi-Legislated Administrative

Code Rule.

Richard

In a message dated 11/24/2009 11:33:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

Usage of any designation must pass your state's licensing boards approval

or you might be in violation of false advertising (ethical violation) and

subject to reprimand. CA has set a legal precedent whereby they will accept

some doctorate programs but not the so-called diploma mill schools. You

must mention the educational field in advertising as well.

November 24, 2009

Michael

Ah hah.....previous rulings and therein LIES the fact.

The national/federal previous rulings which have been quoted many many

times.

Additionally the lawyers from the Florida House and Florida Senate in 2006

pushed through to the Florida Board of Acupuncture the new

Quasi-Legislated Advertising Administrative Code Rule as previously noted

multiple times.

As far as Florida LAc's are concerned its ALL legal as long as they follow

the letter of that Code Rule.

Richard

In a message dated 11/24/2009 1:49:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

Richard,

Licensing boards are subject to previous rulings as well. If your state

has done this at another level, then it is golden but otherwise most states

run these things through their licensing boards. Since we are regulated by

these boards, then what they say usually must be followed otherwise you

risk your license.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

November 24, 2009

And I along with many others strongly disagree.

Respect is earned and does not come from ones degree.

The only gains that have been made have been the ones fought for such as in

Florida.

Richard

In a message dated 11/24/2009 1:54:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to

understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level doctorate is

what we should have done long ago and then we would not be discussing the

technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and if we are to be the

professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need to be pushing for the FPD.

Further efforts at continued weakening of this will only undermine the gains

we have made.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

November 24, 2009

Whether you're for or against the FPD, or have no opinion on the matter, one

thing is clear to me from ongoing discussions here and in many forums:

there is clearly no consensus among the stakeholders that the FPD is the way to

go.

For better or worse, ours is a profession divided on this confusing issue.

Be well,

Keith