depression

[Guest guest]

Keep it simple. I feel most people can get a lot just by explaining Yin

and yang in terms of Excess and deficiency. Getting this concept

across can lead you into tonifying (someone depressed) and sedating (someone

with anxiety).

(my belief is that most Americans, when they don't feel good for whatever,

reason think they are "depressed").

One of my teachers, David Chan said, "acupuncture is the hypen between

mind and body".

which I thought was pretty quotable.... ;-)

Those are my two bits...

best of luck,

doug

 

 

Nashua Natural Medicine wrote:

Hi

all,I

am going to be on a local radio station panel discussion on treatments

for depression. I haven't been on the radio before and was wondering

if anyone has had this experience? Any pointers, or good sound bites

that I could offer up about depression and Chinese/Oriental med in general.

It is a one hour show with a three person panel, so, with commercials and

possible callers it doesn't seem to me to be a whole lot of time to get

into much detail about anything. Sean

Doherty

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

[Guest guest]

Ok, Ok... that was quick.

But Z'ev, the point was to how to make this understandable to a general

audience. If you want to throw stagnation into the mix, I agree. (As to

point #1, that is my term for xie, I don't think I'm alone in its use (but

that is a long standing discussion and I'll admit it may be wrong))

"Depression and anxiety can be caused by either shih/repletion (i.e.

excess) or xu/vacuity (i.e. deficiency)."

Yes, that is all I was suggesting that the person tries to get across

to the radio audience. And yes, it can be mixed but you can't make that

point until you make the first.

"...but we can explain the methodology of Chinese medicine without oversimplifying

diagnostic and treatment concepts." Apparently I can't, want to take

a whack at it yourself? ;-)

 

 

wrote:

on 10/12/00 2:46 PM, L.Ac. at

wrote:

I feel most people can get a lot just by explaining Yin and

yang in terms of Excess and deficiency. Getting this concept across

can lead you into tonifying (someone depressed) and sedating (someone with

anxiety).

Douglas,

 

I don't agree with what you have expressed here, because it is misleading,

and, in essence, not true.

Why?

1) The Chinese terms are bu/supplement and xie/drain. There is

no way one could come up with sedation for xie/draining. With acupuncture,

either you bring qi to the point or channel, or drain it away. Sedation

is technically to put to sleep, to cause something to remain in one place.

It is an inaccurate translation of the concept.

2) Depression and anxiety can be caused by either shih/repletion (i.e.

excess) or xu/vacuity (i.e. deficiency). Or they can have mixed patterns

of repletion and vacuity. To recommend that one 'sedate' anxiety

and 'tonify' depression is inaccurate. For example, liver qi depression,

which may include emotional depression, may require draining of replete

qi and supplementation of liver yin and/or blood.

It doesn't help to simplify CM concepts if we are not accurate.

It only causes confusion and misrepresentation of the subject. Treatment

of emotional/psychological disorders is definately helped by Chinese medicine,

but we can explain the methodology of Chinese medicine without oversimplifying

diagnostic and treatment concepts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

[Guest guest]

< One of my teachers, David Chan said, "acupuncture is the hypen between mind and body". which I thought was pretty quotable.... ;-) >

Thanks Doug! This is a great quote, don't know if I will get a chance to use it, but I will keep it around just in case

thanks again,

Sean

 

[Guest guest]

on 10/12/00 2:46 PM, L.Ac. at wrote:

 

I feel most people can get a lot just by explaining Yin and yang in terms of Excess and deficiency. Getting this concept across can lead you into tonifying (someone depressed) and sedating (someone with anxiety).

 

 

 

 

 

Douglas,

 

 

I don't agree with what you have expressed here, because it is misleading, and, in essence, not true.

 

Why?

 

1) The Chinese terms are bu/supplement and xie/drain. There is no way one could come up with sedation for xie/draining. With acupuncture, either you bring qi to the point or channel, or drain it away. Sedation is technically to put to sleep, to cause something to remain in one place. It is an inaccurate translation of the concept.

 

2) Depression and anxiety can be caused by either shih/repletion (i.e. excess) or xu/vacuity (i.e. deficiency). Or they can have mixed patterns of repletion and vacuity. To recommend that one 'sedate' anxiety and 'tonify' depression is inaccurate. For example, liver qi depression, which may include emotional depression, may require draining of replete qi and supplementation of liver yin and/or blood.

 

It doesn't help to simplify CM concepts if we are not accurate. It only causes confusion and misrepresentation of the subject. Treatment of emotional/psychological disorders is definately helped by Chinese medicine, but we can explain the methodology of Chinese medicine without oversimplifying diagnostic and treatment concepts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

on 10/12/00 3:44 PM, L.Ac. at wrote:

 

>Ok, Ok... that was quick.

 

>But Z'ev, the point was to how to make this understandable to a general audience. If you want to >>>throw stagnation into the mix, I agree. (As to point #1, that is my term for xie, I don't think I'm alone in its use (but that is a long standing discussion and I'll admit it may be wrong))

 

This is not your fault, Doug, but a wrong translation is a wrong translation. The closest term to a concept of sedation would be ping, which can be translated as level or calm, as in ping wei san, Calm the Stomach Powder. But the character is xie, which is best translated as draining. Draining is not sedation. Another example of how we've gotten tripped up by translation inaccuracy.

 

> " Depression and anxiety can be caused by either shih/repletion (i.e. excess) or xu/vacuity (i.e. deficiency). "

Yes, that is all I was suggesting that the person tries to get across to the radio audience. And yes, it can be mixed but you can't make that point until you make the first.

 

But, Doug, it is simply wrong to associate anxiety with excess and depression with deficiency. This is simplification at the expense of what is real and true.

 

" ...but we can explain the methodology of Chinese medicine without oversimplifying diagnostic and treatment concepts. " Apparently I can't, want to take a whack at it yourself? ;-)

 

Simply, that Chinese medicine has a long history of treating emotional and psychological disorders with herbal medicine and acupuncture, listing source texts and studies (one good book just out is " Soothing the Troubled Mind " by Thomas Dey from Paradigm Press). Explain how acupuncture works, talk about herbal medicine, pulse diagnosis, and how CM treats holistically with yin and yang, pattern diagnosis, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

wrote:

on 10/12/00 2:46 PM, L.Ac. at wrote:

I feel most people can get a lot just by explaining Yin and yang in terms of Excess and deficiency. Getting this concept across can lead you into tonifying (someone depressed) and sedating (someone with anxiety).

Douglas,

 

 

I don't agree with what you have expressed here, because it is misleading, and, in essence, not true.

 

Why?

 

1) The Chinese terms are bu/supplement and xie/drain. There is no way one could come up with sedation for xie/draining. With acupuncture, either you bring qi to the point or channel, or drain it away. Sedation is technically to put to sleep, to cause something to remain in one place. It is an inaccurate translation of the concept.

 

2) Depression and anxiety can be caused by either shih/repletion (i.e. excess) or xu/vacuity (i.e. deficiency). Or they can have mixed patterns of repletion and vacuity. To recommend that one 'sedate' anxiety and 'tonify' depression is inaccurate. For example, liver qi depression, which may include emotional depression, may require draining of replete qi and supplementation of liver yin and/or blood.

 

It doesn't help to simplify CM concepts if we are not accurate. It only causes confusion and misrepresentation of the subject. Treatment of emotional/psychological disorders is definately helped by Chinese medicine, but we can explain the methodology of Chinese medicine without oversimplifying diagnostic and treatment concepts.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Blue Poppy published a book for general public on depression and -- by Rosa Schnyer. She is head of an ongoing NIH funded study of treatment of depression with acupuncture only at the University of Arizona. Might be good to mention.

 

Catherine

 

-

 

Thursday, October 12, 2000 5:19 PM

Re: Depression

on 10/12/00 3:44 PM, L.Ac. at wrote:

>Ok, Ok... that was quick. >But Z'ev, the point was to how to make this understandable to a general audience. If you want to >>>throw stagnation into the mix, I agree. (As to point #1, that is my term for xie, I don't think I'm alone in its use (but that is a long standing discussion and I'll admit it may be wrong)) This is not your fault, Doug, but a wrong translation is a wrong translation. The closest term to a concept of sedation would be ping, which can be translated as level or calm, as in ping wei san, Calm the Stomach Powder. But the character is xie, which is best translated as draining. Draining is not sedation. Another example of how we've gotten tripped up by translation inaccuracy.>"Depression and anxiety can be caused by either shih/repletion (i.e. excess) or xu/vacuity (i.e. deficiency)." Yes, that is all I was suggesting that the person tries to get across to the radio audience. And yes, it can be mixed but you can't make that point until you make the first. But, Doug, it is simply wrong to associate anxiety with excess and depression with deficiency. This is simplification at the expense of what is real and true."...but we can explain the methodology of Chinese medicine without oversimplifying diagnostic and treatment concepts." Apparently I can't, want to take a whack at it yourself? ;-) Simply, that Chinese medicine has a long history of treating emotional and psychological disorders with herbal medicine and acupuncture, listing source texts and studies (one good book just out is "Soothing the Troubled Mind" by Thomas Dey from Paradigm Press). Explain how acupuncture works, talk about herbal medicine, pulse diagnosis, and how CM treats holistically with yin and yang, pattern diagnosis, etc. wrote:

on 10/12/00 2:46 PM, L.Ac. at wrote:

I feel most people can get a lot just by explaining Yin and yang in terms of Excess and deficiency. Getting this concept across can lead you into tonifying (someone depressed) and sedating (someone with anxiety).

Douglas, I don't agree with what you have expressed here, because it is misleading, and, in essence, not true. Why? 1) The Chinese terms are bu/supplement and xie/drain. There is no way one could come up with sedation for xie/draining. With acupuncture, either you bring qi to the point or channel, or drain it away. Sedation is technically to put to sleep, to cause something to remain in one place. It is an inaccurate translation of the concept. 2) Depression and anxiety can be caused by either shih/repletion (i.e. excess) or xu/vacuity (i.e. deficiency). Or they can have mixed patterns of repletion and vacuity. To recommend that one 'sedate' anxiety and 'tonify' depression is inaccurate. For example, liver qi depression, which may include emotional depression, may require draining of replete qi and supplementation of liver yin and/or blood. It doesn't help to simplify CM concepts if we are not accurate. It only causes confusion and misrepresentation of the subject. Treatment of emotional/psychological disorders is definately helped by Chinese medicine, but we can explain the methodology of Chinese medicine without oversimplifying diagnostic and treatment concepts. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

on 10/12/00 5:57 PM, Catherine Hemenway at chemenway wrote:

 

Blue Poppy published a book for general public on depression and -- by Rosa Schnyer. She is head of an ongoing NIH funded study of treatment of depression with acupuncture only at the University of Arizona. Might be good to mention.

 

Catherine

 

 

Yes,

This is an excellant book.

 

Z'ev

[Guest guest]

, " " <

zrosenberg@e...> wrote:

>

hey everyone, please delete the previous message from your new posts.

 

We went through this a few weeks ago. thanks. Our digest-receiving

members are getting unhappy about this.

 

[Guest guest]

Before we get more into this discussion about depression, this was

the original message:

Hi

all,I am going to be on a local radio station panel discussion on treatments

for depression. I haven't been on the radio before and was wondering

if anyone has had this experience? Any pointers, or good sound bites

that I could offer up about depression and Chinese/Oriental med in general.

It is a one hour show with a three person panel, so, with commercials and

possible callers it doesn't seem to me to be a whole lot of time to get

into much detail about anything.Sean Doherty

This was my reply:

>>>>Keep it simple. I feel most people can get a lot just by explaining

Yin and yang in terms of

Excess and deficiency. Getting this concept across can lead you

into tonifying (someone

depressed) and sedating (someone with anxiety).

_____

I'm not defending a simplistic approach to treatment, I offered this

as a start (with some stagnation thrown in) to get a naive audience to

get some appreciation of . It was a way to introduce Yin

and Yang theory pertinent to the topic. If there is time, of course, take

it to the next level of the seemingly contradictory effects of deficiency

related to anxiety and stagnation to depression.

If you can talk fast enough between commercials, to get in theories

of false heat, spleen qi xu, liver qi stagnation (depression) and why Bensky

recommends blood activating formulas for depression, then that would be

even better.

Also I think, the discussion is limited by the vocabulary of "anxiety"

and "depression" although used by our patients don't adaquately express

our (TCM doctors) perception of the problem.

[Guest guest]

Having been on the radio many times I also suggest keeping it very simple.

My biggest mistake early on in presentations to the public was attempting

to explain some of the theories that we use in .

I believe that word pictures and or metaphors are the best choice.

Additionally, I suggest sticking to the core concept of restoring balance

+ vitality to the whole body system. I like to connect all of my

explanations to and through that key point.

Mark Fradkin

 

 

" L.Ac." wrote:

 

Before we get more into this discussion about depression, this was

the original message:

Hi

all,I am going to be on a local radio station panel discussion on treatments

for depression. I haven't been on the radio before and was wondering

if anyone has had this experience? Any pointers, or good sound bites

that I could offer up about depression and Chinese/Oriental med in general.

It is a one hour show with a three person panel, so, with commercials and

possible callers it doesn't seem to me to be a whole lot of time to get

into much detail about anything.Sean Doherty

This was my reply:

>>>>Keep it simple. I feel most people can get a lot just by explaining

Yin and yang in terms of

Excess and deficiency. Getting this concept across can lead you

into tonifying (someone

depressed) and sedating (someone with anxiety).

_____

I'm not defending a simplistic approach to treatment, I offered this

as a start (with some stagnation thrown in) to get a naive audience to

get some appreciation of . It was a way to introduce Yin

and Yang theory pertinent to the topic. If there is time, of course, take

it to the next level of the seemingly contradictory effects of deficiency

related to anxiety and stagnation to depression.

If you can talk fast enough between commercials, to get in theories

of false heat, spleen qi xu, liver qi stagnation (depression) and why Bensky

recommends blood activating formulas for depression, then that would be

even better.

Also I think, the discussion is limited by the vocabulary of "anxiety"

and "depression" although used by our patients don't adaquately express

our (TCM doctors) perception of the problem.

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

[Guest guest]

I thought I would report back with my radio experience since it generated some discussion. It was a panel discussion, with a psychologist, massage therapist, and me. It was one hour long, and the moderator introduced the topic starting with the psychologist. He tried to dominate the conversation a bit, but the moderator was very interested in Chinese medicine, so, I was able to bring up a number of points. The points that I though I got across clearly were 1) They brought me on as an acupuncturist and I explained that I practiced Chinese/Oriental medicine and what that encompasses. 2) we look to treat the root cause of illness , e.g. 5 individuals with a western Dx of depression would all likely have a different Chinese med Dx. 3) That there is an interconnectedness of mind and body, general idea of organ relationships. 4) That there were a few studies comparing acupuncture and treatment with amitryptiline and that acupuncture was found to be as good if not better, without the side effects. I talked about the pulse and tongue and yin and yang too, but was less confident that people really "got it" and that they appreciated that these are practical ideas with real applications. The moderator really got interested in the pulse and tongue and so I spent a bit of time trying to explain it all to her. This made me appreciate that regardless of what you think you are going to talk about, with time constraints, and moderator (media) manipulation it will likely turn out to be something completely different. I appreciated Doug's thoughts on introducing a few basic concepts to an audience that was new to the medicine, through an ADD medium.

 

Sean Doherty

[Guest guest]

, " L.Ac. " <

taiqi@t...> wrote:

>

 

>

> If you can talk fast enough between commercials, to get in theories

of

> false heat, spleen qi xu, liver qi stagnation (depression) and why

> Bensky recommends blood activating formulas for depression, then

that

> would be even better.

 

I wouldn't recommend discussing these ideas at all with a lay radio

audience. I think Sean's actual approach was actually best. To

indicate that any mental illness could be differentiated in a number

of

ways and that the value of TCM was this process. This is far more

valuable than postulating any particular pattern for any given

illness.

 

And regardless of the specific context that begins a thread, it is

very

desirable to elaborate and challenge ideas in order that less

experienced px or students on this list don't get the impression that

an unchallenged statement is a defacto consensus in the field.

 

todd

[Guest guest]

Dear Cazibe,

Depression can have many causes. Physically it can be caused by a

back up of toxins in the system.

The colon is so clogged with waste products (called pockets which

actually bulge outside the colon and fester so feeding back into the

colon toxic products through small holes in the colon wall) that the

liver and kidneys are unable to function properly.

This, in turn, affects the blood and the brain.

The first action, in handling any depresssion (if it is a physical

cause) would be to do a PROPER INTENSIVE COLON, LIVER AND KIDNEY

CLEANSE, to get the person off any animal or animal by products, onto a

juice, vege and fruit diet, to have hot and cold showeres daily to

encourage the circulation.To get them to exercise . to get them to

tremove any object or person from the environment that caused them to be

spiritually depresses (like hanging onto the clothes and belongings of

a deceased loved one) but, firstly, the main ingredient in removing

depression, is for the person , him or her self to WANT to be well.

Drugs and herbs can be used to put the person into a quiet catatonic

state so that he doesn't worry anyone else, but it will take a real

effort to REALLY get someone out of a depression.

..............Love Penny

[Guest guest]

Dear Renee and Jerry?

Thanks very much ofr the info. I I am cutting out the caffeine. I never

did much anyhow so I doubt I will miss that one cup a day! As for the other

stuff, the celexa has killed my appetite, so I am going to ask my doctor to

some vitamins. I will amke sure that the b vitamin you mentioned

is a big part of the one he prescribes. I am going to try and ween myself

off of these pills in about a month or so. I have a prescription good for

two more refills. I do not want to renew after they are gone.

Thanks and God Bless

Kathy

[Guest guest]

Renee,

Sorry I didn't answer all your questions. Yes my depression is very much

situational.

KAthy

[Guest guest]

I can personally recommend St. John's wort as a remedy for what is called a

depressive episode, in other words,

depression brought on by specific life situations rather than a chronic

condition.

 

When my daughter died 3 years ago I had a major depressive episode -- couldn't

get off the couch, no appetite,

couldn't sleep but tired all the time, the standard symptoms. No way was I

going to take pharmaceutical

anti-depressants. That stuff scares me.

 

I took SJW capsules, since that was the most easily obtainable form, 6 a day

until I got a " serotonin buzz "

(lightheaded happiness kind of like the buzz from a glass of wine) and then cut

back to 4 a day. I used it for

several months, until I just felt like I didn't need it any longer. Cut back to

2 a day for a week or so, and

then quit taking it. It worked wonders. I slept. I ate. I became functional.

Looking back and knowing what I

know now, I might have added kava to it to help with the jitters I had during

the first couple weeks (kava is a

great anti-anxiety herb).

 

Something that also helped was upping my consumption of foods high in

tryptophan, the " happy amino acid. " Turkey

is a big one, as are brown rice, peanuts and soy. Your body uses tryptophan

plus B vitamins to manufacture

serotonin, which is the brain chemical that gets low when you're depressed.

 

Just remember, anti-depressants (herbal or otherwise) don't make you happy, they

just help you handle whatever

life throws at you. I hope your life settles back down soon.

 

Take care,

Laura

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

Regarding situational depression, normally and luckily you dont have to

take it forever as you would if you had endogonous (spelled wrong)

depression, where it can be inherited or comes from no known cause.

Usually with your type of depression, when the situations in your life

improve, the depression goes away, hopefully.

 

Take good care.

 

Love,

Renee and Jerry

[Guest guest]

To laura and everyone else that has replied to the depression string of

info.

THANK YOU THANK YOU!

YOu all have so lovingly shared your knowledge and expereince with me. As

they say I know diddly about herbal healing. Like I told Sorcy, I am much

better at the growing part! I thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

I went out today and got a tea with Kava in it. I can't afford the ST

John's wort yet but will try it out to help me ween off the celexa in a

couple of weeks when I can get some.

Thanks

Kathy

[Guest guest]

Sorcy,

You are a doll!

Kathy

[Guest guest]

" aww, call it a long term trade, hehe. Bloodroot vs SJW, hehe.

 

Sorcygrinning "

 

 

I can hardly wait to get it. I want to see if I can get it to grow

here......

Kathy......salivating after a new green thing to grow!!!

[Guest guest]

Shizandra berry tea and lemon balm tea does wonders to lift the spirits

also. Works for me.

Kristine

[Guest guest]

herbal remedies, manifestnow wrote:

> In a message dated 06/17/2001 4:24:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> herbal remedies writes:

>

> > SJs Wart is not

> > strong enough and the drugs such as Prozac, Paxil, etc. only

mask the

> > source of the pain.

>

> What I have noticed, in a number of my clients, is that, when they

cut out

> all artificial sweeteners (Equal, Nutrasweet, etc.),

>

> blessings

> Margaret

> You must be the change you wish to see in the world.

 

***Does Turbinado Sugar count among that group??? I've just lately

begun using that in my morning coffee.

 

Interesting Info, thanks,

Brandy

[Guest guest]

Thanks Kristine,

 

L, Valorie

 

-

The Halls

herbal remedies

Sunday, June 17, 2001 3:27 PM

Re: [herbal remedies] depression

Shizandra berry tea and lemon balm tea does wonders to lift the spiritsalso. Works for me.KristineFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington

[Guest guest]

Good observations Margaret.

Love,

Doc

 

Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington

What I have noticed, in a number of my clients, is that, when they cut out all artificial sweeteners (Equal, Nutrasweet, etc.), dropped sodas-- particularly diet sodas, and didn't add back in any sugar of any kind, not fructose, not anything (stevia is a wonderful sweetener), cut back on starchy carbohydrates (cakes, cookies, crackers, commercial breads -- particularly anything with hydrogenated fats listed in the ingredients) in a major way, and made sure to consume adequate protein (mainlining meat isn't necessary - a good sugar-free protein shake will do), and take 3 tablespoons of flax oil daily, the depression has very often lifted in and of itself. The artificial sweeteners block seratonin production in the brain (this is the "chemical" the doctors will tell you you don't have enough of when they want to prescribe Prozac, Paxil, etc.). The protein helps build the seratonin.blessingsMargaret

[Guest guest]

A few Days of Eating well, light exercise, St Johns wort, valerian and lots of red clover tea always makes those big problems look small again.My depression always seems to sneak up on me, and every time its at a time when my diet has gone to the dogs,eating junk food on the run,flat out working and not sleeping and basically living all the wrong ways.Stress is created within, and if we put the right stuff in there with it, it will have less of a chance of impacting heavily upon us.as I say this is just my fast diagnosis and cure, turns me around in a matter of days.it may be as simple as the fact that I believe everything I have said here.

In my case believing I know the problem and then believing in the solution certainly helps.

 

Tom

 

LJaguar2212 [LJaguar2212]Wednesday, 5 December 2001 07:12herbal remedies Subject: Re: [herbal remedies]DepressionHi All.. As long as I'm on a roll tonight I'd like to say a few words about depression. I saw a post one day about it.. but I just was unable to sit down and reply at the time. IMO if anyone ever feels depressed.. sad.. loney.....stressed out...or a reasonable facsimile.... TALK to someone...reach out....hold their hand if you can. Find some soul that is willing to listen and be supportive. There are plenty of people out there... Do NOT go to a psychiatrist. Learn about natural medicine. Psychotropic drugs are very very damaging and dangerous. Beth Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington