Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I am not playing with words - as you are trying. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > Strike the " I " and " you " above, and reverse them. > > > > > > geo> What? Do you think dan needs your help? > > > > He was pointing out the way that introjection and projection work. > > > > The other you are dealing with is mind constructed. > > In " other " words (heheh), imaginary. The self being dealt with is equally > imaginary. One can sit here all day and declare this and nobody believes it, > which is reasonable enough (as inquiry is called for, not belief). > > geo> Tim, what makes you feel that you are the only one here that knows that > the self is imaginary? Geo, what makes you feel that I feel that way? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " new7892001 " <JB789 wrote: > > , so, how do i get enlightened? > and how long it takes? > * > anybody here enlightened? > can you make me enlightened? > * > thank you. you are enlightened....without knowing about, yes therefore " me know nothing " , right ..... it takes no time as long there is an imaginary " you " there is endless time and space which seperate " you " to real being ..... there is a whole world which seperate " you " from enlightenment.... such world is " you " ..... no enlightened ones within this your imaginary bubble.... therefore " me knowing nothing " , yes ..... wake up then there is no world and no " you " and also no imaginary enlightenment Marc Ps: would say that there are few ones in here who are more enlightened than few others in here..... the question you should ask in here.... " who is the most enlightened in here? " .....and also " why does it hurt soo much to be enlightened? " .... lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 - Tim G. Nisargadatta Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:49 PM Re: me know nothing Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I am not playing with words - as you are trying. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > Strike the " I " and " you " above, and reverse them. > > > > > > geo> What? Do you think dan needs your help? > > > > He was pointing out the way that introjection and projection work. > > > > The other you are dealing with is mind constructed. > > In " other " words (heheh), imaginary. The self being dealt with is equally > imaginary. One can sit here all day and declare this and nobody believes > it, > which is reasonable enough (as inquiry is called for, not belief). > > geo> Tim, what makes you feel that you are the only one here that knows > that > the self is imaginary? Geo, what makes you feel that I feel that way? Tim, for this: " One can sit here all day and declare this and nobody believes it " avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 4/6/2009 07:12:08 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > Geo, what makes you feel that I feel that way? > > Tim, for this: " One can sit here all day and declare this and > nobody > believes it " OK, maybe people believe it (for all the good the belief does :-p). I was probably projecting, based on my own memories of hearing " there is no me " . I remember not ever believing it, unless/until 'experienced directly'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Tim: Moreover, isn't personality something 'others' observe, in construction of perceived 'other'? Or perceived 'self'?I note no personality here. Thoughts arise. Others may perceive certain automatic habits, which correspond to 'personality'. geo> Personality is born, is constructed around the sense of inner separate being. You wil never see you own personality because if its there you are it. It is not a factual something, or some center, it is the set of behaviours, beleifs, conditionings. But you are right, others will see you as a personality, except if both are awake. Now I must ask you: One man is awake and says so. Other man is dreaming and saying he is awake. Is there not a difference? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Now I must ask you: > > One man is awake and says so. > Other man is dreaming and saying he is awake. > > Is there not a difference? Ultimately, no. All this talk is dream. Provisionally, yes. One may be suffering from some false notions, one may not. The thing is, nobody knows who that one is... so all that matters, all that *can* matter, is one's own awakening. There is literally no way to judge the awakening of another. We cannot get inside another's experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 - Tim G. Nisargadatta Thursday, June 04, 2009 7:36 AM Re: me know nothing Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > Geo, what makes you feel that I feel that way? > > Tim, for this: " One can sit here all day and declare this and > nobody > believes it " OK, maybe people believe it (for all the good the belief does :-p). I was probably projecting, based on my own memories of hearing " there is no me " . I remember not ever believing it, unless/until 'experienced directly'. geo> Ok...I am feeling much better now... :>)) avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 4/6/2009 07:42:27 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 > > The dissolution of any somebodies ever winning or losing is no concern > > with > > winning or loosing. I am not playing with words - as you are trying. > > -geo- > > So, you are the " winner, " and I am the " loser. " But it's not a game, > right? > > Okay, I lose. > > - D - > > NO! I AM THE LOSER!! > -geo- Okay, you lose. Now, I want a chance to lose. We've talked about the dissolution of somebodies. Let's talk about the dissolution of antibodies. Antibodies dissolve when there isn't any body to be anti. That was a stupid thing to say. Anything you say is right. I lose! - d - No I will lose again: One man is awake. Another man is sleeping dreaming that is awake. or... Sometimes I am awake Other times I dream I am awake. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 3/6/2009 21:18:48 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 > Now I must ask you: > > One man is awake and says so. > Other man is dreaming and saying he is awake. > > Is there not a difference? Ultimately, no. All this talk is dream. Provisionally, yes. One may be suffering from some false notions, one may not. The thing is, nobody knows who that one is... so all that matters, all that *can* matter, is one's own awakening. There is literally no way to judge the awakening of another. We cannot get inside another's experience. -tim- Of course it is about the own awakening. That is all. One can have some notions about what is going on in anothers being...but what matters is our own being. So the questioning is: Am I awake?........... or dreaming that I am awake? -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 4/6/2009 08:11:09 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 - Tim G. Nisargadatta Thursday, June 04, 2009 7:41 AM Re: me know nothing Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Now I must ask you: > > One man is awake and says so. > Other man is dreaming and saying he is awake. > > Is there not a difference? Ultimately, no. All this talk is dream. Provisionally, yes. One may be suffering from some false notions, one may not. The thing is, nobody knows who that one is... so all that matters, all that *can* matter, is one's own awakening. There is literally no way to judge the awakening of another. We cannot get inside another's experience. geo> May I add. Sometimes one can see anothers sleep - if one is awake. It is easy to missjudge, I guess, but it is possible. avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 4/6/2009 08:11:09 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > So the questioning is: > Am I awake?........... or dreaming that I am awake? > -geo- Awake, and (dreaming that you're asleep or awake). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 - geo Nisargadatta Thursday, June 04, 2009 8:18 AM Re: Re: me know nothing > Now I must ask you: > > One man is awake and says so. > Other man is dreaming and saying he is awake. > > Is there not a difference? Ultimately, no. All this talk is dream. Provisionally, yes. One may be suffering from some false notions, one may not. The thing is, nobody knows who that one is... so all that matters, all that *can* matter, is one's own awakening. There is literally no way to judge the awakening of another. We cannot get inside another's experience. -tim- Of course it is about the own awakening. That is all. One can have some notions about what is going on in anothers being...but what matters is our own being. So the questioning is: Am I awake?........... or dreaming that I am awake? This what I dont understand in dan's objection. When one is awake there is a perception of the whole " field " , thought....thinking processess are seen for what they are within their limited field. When sleeping, one is identified with the thinking dynamics, with thoughts, and all is seen through a conceptual framework. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 4/6/2009 08:11:09 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 4/6/2009 08:33:19 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > This what I dont understand in dan's objection. When one is awake there is a > perception of the whole " field " , thought....thinking processess are seen for > what they are within their limited field. When sleeping, one is identified > with the thinking dynamics, with thoughts, and all is seen through a > conceptual framework. > -geo- From here, 'sleeping dreams' are more real than the waking state, because there's no illusion of a separate person there within the dream. It just unfolds, which is actually what happens in waking consciousness too. Only, we imagine a perceiver of that consciousness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 > > This what I dont understand in dan's objection. When one is awake there is > a > perception of the whole " field " , thought....thinking processess are seen > for > what they are within their limited field. When sleeping, one is identified > with the thinking dynamics, with thoughts, and all is seen through a > conceptual framework. > -geo- From here, 'sleeping dreams' are more real than the waking state, because there's no illusion of a separate person there within the dream. It just unfolds, which is actually what happens in waking consciousness too. Only, we imagine a perceiver of that consciousness. -tim- Ah, you are talking about night sleeps and night dreams? Like dreaming and being aware that one is dreaming? Am talking about another kind of dreaming. The dream of maya. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 4/6/2009 09:04:15 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 - Tim G. Nisargadatta Thursday, June 04, 2009 8:59 AM Re: me know nothing Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > This what I dont understand in dan's objection. When one is awake there is > a > perception of the whole " field " , thought....thinking processess are seen > for > what they are within their limited field. When sleeping, one is identified > with the thinking dynamics, with thoughts, and all is seen through a > conceptual framework. > -geo- From here, 'sleeping dreams' are more real than the waking state, because there's no illusion of a separate person there within the dream. It just unfolds, which is actually what happens in waking consciousness too. Only, we imagine a perceiver of that consciousness. -tim- In a way yes. That is one of the things I like in nagualism. The ability to visit other worlds - in itself is just an enlargement of consciousness, quite useless. But there is another side to it. One is able to understand that " worlds " are all inclusive, with their history, their beings, their anything....and then suddenly pufff...all is gone and another world is born - also all inclusively. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 4/6/2009 09:04:15 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > In a way yes. That is one of the things I like in nagualism. The ability to > visit other worlds - in itself is just an enlargement of consciousness, > quite useless. But there is another side to it. One is able to understand > that " worlds " are all inclusive, with their history, their beings, their > anything....and then suddenly pufff...all is gone and another world is > born - also all inclusively. > -geo- Yup, that's true... in a way, the world is a state of mind. There isn't any single, continuous world, aside from what we construct mentally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 > In a way yes. That is one of the things I like in nagualism. The ability > to > visit other worlds - in itself is just an enlargement of consciousness, > quite useless. But there is another side to it. One is able to understand > that " worlds " are all inclusive, with their history, their beings, their > anything....and then suddenly pufff...all is gone and another world is > born - also all inclusively. > -geo- Yup, that's true... in a way, the world is a state of mind. There isn't any single, continuous world, aside from what we construct mentally. -tim- The human world is inherent to the human organism. We can not change much in that world, it is more or less fixed until the organism dies. So we tend to see cars, tables, ice-creams...til the body kicks off. Within this human world there is the current, the river - that some call river of maya - of illusion. It is a concrete energetic field that involves the sense of a separate inner observer. And " above " the human world ...there is the univesal mind. that contains all possible worlds, all possible manifestations. Nis calls all these sets of worlds as consciousness. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 4/6/2009 09:35:07 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > Tim G. > > > Nisargadatta > > > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 5:20 PM > > > Re: me know nothing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Then the lights are off pall... > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > When they are off, they are on. > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > Ain't it the truth... everything is its opposite. > > > > > > geo> Right. So when someone says he is selfless in every life situation that > > > may present.... it is the opposite. > > > > I agree. > > > > And I'm not saying that I am selfless in every life situation. > > > > I am saying that every life situation arises without involving any separately existing " I " ever. > > > > What I've said is that if there is no 'I' center here, there is no 'I' center anywhere. > > > > You are making this into a word game, but you don't seem aware that this is what's happening. You are taking statements I make about " no I " then making that a personal quality I am claiming for me. And that is not what is being said. > > > > I am saying there is no 'I' center in any body-mind organism. > > > > The formation of personality, that seems to produce a center, is > > formed not because of that center, and never really has produced > > such a center. > > Moreover, isn't personality something 'others' observe, in construction of perceived 'other'? Or perceived 'self'? > > I note no personality here. Thoughts arise. Others may perceive certain automatic habits, which correspond to 'personality'. well than fuck you asshole. no problem right? no personality or any of that shit there right? LOL! ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > i didn't want the Penguins to lose last night. > > > > > > > > i wanted the Red Wings to win. > > > > > > > > but i'm still a no one. > > > > > > > > and i'm still right. > > > > > > > > Detroit will win the cup.. > > > > > > > > in 5 or 6 or 7. > > > > > > > > Let It Be Written! > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > > > > The Stanley Cup returns to Hockey Town. > > > > > > The sages are correct. > > > > > > Everything as it is, is exactly as it is to be. > > > > > > So It Has Been Written. > > > > > > - d - > > > > > > you have been Blessed with the Understanding! > > > > Praise the Lord and on tho the Face Off. > > > > :-) > > > > .b b.b. > > > Ah, " Face Off. " John Woo, good stuff: > > Castor Troy: Lies, deceit, mixed messages... this is turning into a real marriage. > > Castor Troy: Isn't this religious, ah yes. The eternal battle between good and evil, saint and sinners... but you are still not having fun. > > Sean Archer: I want to take his face... off. Eyes, nose, skin, teeth. It's coming off. > > - d - Castor Oil: damn this shit tastes bad! Poor Archer: fuck! i shot an arrow into my faceless head! ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " new7892001 " <JB789@> wrote: > > > > , so, how do i get enlightened? > > and how long it takes? > > * > > anybody here enlightened? > > can you make me enlightened? > > * > > thank you. > > > you are enlightened....without knowing about, yes > > therefore " me know nothing " , right > > .... > > it takes no time > > as long there is an imaginary " you " > > there is endless time and space which seperate " you " to real being > > .... > > there is a whole world which seperate " you " from enlightenment.... > > such world is " you " > > .... > > no enlightened ones within this your imaginary bubble.... > > therefore " me knowing nothing " , yes > > .... > > wake up > > then there is no world and no " you " > > and also no imaginary enlightenment > > > Marc > > > Ps: would say that there are few ones in here who are more enlightened than few others in here..... > the question you should ask in here.... > " who is the most enlightened in here? " .....and also " why does it hurt soo much to be enlightened? " .... > > lol oooch! this pains me...sooo much. whenever i'm infrequently around. i prefer to surround the around. then no preferences nor references. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Tim: Moreover, isn't personality something 'others' observe, in construction of perceived 'other'? Or perceived 'self'? > I note no personality here. Thoughts arise. Others may perceive certain automatic habits, which correspond to 'personality'. > > geo> Personality is born, is constructed around the sense of inner separate being. You wil never see you own personality because if its there you are it. > It is not a factual something, or some center, it is the set of behaviours, beleifs, conditionings. But you are right, others will see you as a personality, except if both are awake. > > Now I must ask you: > > One man is awake and says so. > Other man is dreaming and saying he is awake. > > Is there not a difference? if one distinction is made.. even ONE.. then like cascading debris.. all distinctions arise. a world is " born " . it will die. it is not real. butterfly/caterpillar is distinction of flimsy insignificance. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > > The dissolution of any somebodies ever winning or losing is no concern > > > with > > > winning or loosing. I am not playing with words - as you are trying. > > > -geo- > > > > So, you are the " winner, " and I am the " loser. " But it's not a game, > > right? > > > > Okay, I lose. > > > > - D - > > > > NO! I AM THE LOSER!! > > -geo- > > Okay, you lose. > > Now, I want a chance to lose. > > We've talked about the dissolution of somebodies. > > Let's talk about the dissolution of antibodies. > > Antibodies dissolve when there isn't any body to be anti. > > That was a stupid thing to say. > > Anything you say is right. > > I lose! > > - d - > > No I will lose again: > > One man is awake. > Another man is sleeping dreaming that is awake. > or... > Sometimes I am awake > Other times I dream I am awake. > -geo- who's the " I " in either case? ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > Now I must ask you: > > > > One man is awake and says so. > > Other man is dreaming and saying he is awake. > > > > Is there not a difference? > > Ultimately, no. All this talk is dream. > > Provisionally, yes. One may be suffering from some false notions, one may > not. The thing is, nobody knows who that one is... so all that matters, all > that *can* matter, is one's own awakening. There is literally no way to > judge the awakening of another. We cannot get inside another's experience. > -tim- > > Of course it is about the own awakening. That is all. One can have some > notions about what is going on in anothers being...but what matters is our > own being. our very OWN???? > So the questioning is: > Am I awake?........... or dreaming that I am awake? > -geo- you're asking the wrong person. he isn't there. and truthfully..there is no question. it's just thought that there is. and some spend full lifetimes looking for that answer. i'd rather fish or cut bait... and never " know " who's " doing " that. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > This what I dont understand in dan's objection. When one is awake there is a > > perception of the whole " field " , thought....thinking processess are seen for > > what they are within their limited field. When sleeping, one is identified > > with the thinking dynamics, with thoughts, and all is seen through a > > conceptual framework. > > -geo- > > From here, 'sleeping dreams' are more real than the waking state, because there's no illusion of a separate person there within the dream. It just unfolds, which is actually what happens in waking consciousness too. Only, we imagine a perceiver of that consciousness. " we " ? but " you " just said.. never mind. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 4, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > In a way yes. That is one of the things I like in nagualism. The ability to > > visit other worlds - in itself is just an enlargement of consciousness, > > quite useless. But there is another side to it. One is able to understand > > that " worlds " are all inclusive, with their history, their beings, their > > anything....and then suddenly pufff...all is gone and another world is > > born - also all inclusively. > > -geo- > > Yup, that's true... in a way, the world is a state of mind. There isn't any single, continuous world, aside from what we construct mentally. there is nothing " we " create. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
