Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2010 Shree Hari Ram Ram Due to significant back log of pending emails... ONLY RESPOND if previously not already covered by other sadhaks. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram =================================================================== To Divine Brothers and Sisters REVISITING - ADDED FEW RELATED UNPOSTED QUESTIONS / COMMENTS: -------------------- Dear Sadaks, Wife beating husband? What about a woman (In laws) beating the new bride. Woman beating woman or woman causing sufferings to another woman still worse. This subject only diverts our mind towards world B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------- A vedic wife should be pati-vrataa, meaning she will have no other man than her husband in her heart and mind. No sex or fooling around with any other man than the husband. Keep husband happy. However, if the husband becomes adharmi or does sinful things, then the wife should not help him do bad things but should help him give up bad things/habits. Same for the husband. He should be patni-vrata. He should not look down at his wife. Both should not compete adversely, but cooperate, and take up the responsibilites that each could do best and complement each other. Vedic marriage is for life time, only one. However, if here is no way out and if the married life is really miserable, then divorce is okay if it saves one's or both's lives from misery. The Vedic purpose of marriage is to raise god conscious children. jai sri krishna! Suresh Vyas --- Thanx Shaliniji Actually it was from swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj He told a storey of abhin bhav Have a wonderfull life you two OR shall I say U one. God bless U Loves Raja Gurdasani -------- Dear Sadhak friends This is a very important question about the duties of the husband and wife.At the time of marriage seven principles are recited by both bride groom and bride.Besides such duties are written in old ancient Manu Smruti .But some principles are required to be changed in the modern times when the whole structure of society is changed,Now wife is also working.In such circumstances all members of the family ought to help her When the husband dies the responsibility comes to the mother.When the wife dies in old age then the old man has to consult his sons or daughters or both.Family unity and family values are the main elements for our progress in life For such good qualities of life structures Indians flourish in all countries of the world But we have to see that our family structure and its values have been maintained. Be aware of bad influence of other cultures on us. TRruly yours S S Bhatt M.Com --------- What should a woman do to get justice in a male dominated Society like ours? If the husband is ill-treating his wife...seeking pleasures with another women...torturing her and looking down upon her all the times...beating her for trifle reasons...etc...Should she still consider her Pati as Parameshwar? ....Gee Waman ---------- My dandavat pranams to all, My question is one which may cause some conflict, but I am determined to bring this issue to light. I recently read in one post, by a most studious indiviudal, that Lord Ramachandra never made any mistakes....He is (and was) Divine, and is not subject to making mistakes. So, is Srimati Sita Devi, the consort of Lord Rama, any less divine? She is worshiped as the " other half " of the Godhead. I ask this question because from the narraations of the pastimes, it appears that Rama punished her again and again for having been touched by Ravana. Punishment is due to making mistakes, is it not? . So, how is it that she was capable of making mistake (allowing Ravana to abduct her, by being misled out of the protective circle created by Laksmana)? I personally believe that her actions were of course, Lila....but simultaneously, acting in the capacity of " appearing to be human " , both Rama and Sita made mistakes. I believe that Rama's mistake was to humiliate Sita unnecessarily, at the point when He journedyed through His kingdom, incognito, to hear what the citizens were saying without their knowing it was their King listening. One man was saying to his wife, who had stayed away over night, " Just because Rama lets Sita back, after being touched by another man, don't think that I will do the same " . Rather than chastising this man, and upholding the dignity of his wife, who did not voluntarily leave the protection of her husband, Rama took the side of a low class, abominable person, who had so discrimination that he would compare the mother of the universe and her being abducted against her will to his own wife's nefarious activites. I say this was a mistake of Lord Rama's, and the entire world has suffered for it since, as without the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and His eternal consort, the condition of the earth planet and her inhabitants has sunk lower and lower into degradation. Therefore, no good has come from the decision made by Rama, which caused Mother Sita to call her Mother, Bhumi, to swallow her back into the earth. I would like to know, Mahalakshmi dasi - Shree Hari Ram Ram Sushri Mahalakshmiji, Paramatma's divine play can be understood by being Paramatma alone. It is not in man's capability to find faults in Paramatma. Either consider Shri Rama a man, or give up your tendencies of finding faults, or else nothing will come in your hands. IN Mahabharat Bhagwaan Shri Krishna has said, " For the establishment of Dharma and its protection, I manifest in all three worlds in many wombs and in those forms and settings conduct accordingly. " You may find this in Swamiji's " Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke liye " pg 211 and 212 . so be it, Vineet Sarvottam ------- Thank you ! This little sister of yours could not have got a better wedding gift. Each of my brothers and sisters were so right. Thank You Vyasji and Raja Gurdasaniji in particular. Yesterday myself and my fiance read the responses together. Oh ! They are so good. He has agreed to be a " patnivrata " ! I said " Damn care " ! He assured me that there will be no need for me to take a course in Judo or Karate. I said " Damn care " ! Pranaams from both of us. Shalini Bhardvaj ------------------------------- Jai Hanuman A concluding verse (often quoted by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ) : JYON TIYA PEEHAR RAHE, PEE KO BHULE NAAHI ! AISE NAR JAG MAIN RAHE, HARI KO BHULE NAAHI !! Just As: A married girl even while being in the home of her parents never forgets her husband Similarly: A male even while being in this world should never forget Paramatma (Hari) Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ----------------------------- In India a lot of importance is given to " chaste wife " ( Pativrata). I want to know what are the standards of one being a Pativrata wife? How does she conduct herself? How does her conduct impact her home? Are there any visible results in her family? How does she get emancipated from this worldly ocean merely because she is Pativrata? I may hasten to add here that I am scheduled to get married in second week of February this year. Hence an early advice from from this Satsanga forum will be appreciated. Sorry for trouble.. Shalini Bhardvaj --------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram KINDLY SUGGEST ANYTHING THAT GITA SPECIFICALLY POINTS OUT IN THIS REGARD. Please quote Gita/other scriptures, wherever possible and avoid personal opinions. Kindly be CONCISE. Ram Ram ============================================================= NEW POSTING Pavitra is the word meant for pious feelings and acts both inner and outworldly.With malign to none,one should love all and that is the way leading to God. So live life that way. Sharma --------------------------- Dear would-be-Patni, Shubhashirwaad, For a successful married life, it is necessary that it is a couple of Pativrata and Patnivrat. After marriage the girl goes to her husbands home i. e. husbands family, wherein she has to adjust with her in- laws and other family members. She is Patni, Bahu, Bhabhi and so on, and soon she is likely to be a mother, and each of her role has certain duties and responsibilities. Whatever, she should not lose her self respect. If any member of the husbands family is harrassing her, she should deal with self-respect. In many families, it is a custom to say, we have performed `Kanyadaan` and now she no longer belongs to our family. Her fate is bound with the husbands family. That outlook need be changed. Her parents should always support her if she is harassed at her `Sasur` ---Gee Waman --------------------------- Dear Sadhaks, My contention is that notwithstanding the question of surrender and devotion to husband, is this surrender not subject to the tenets of the laws of Dharma? Should a wife allow the husband to trample her personality and existence? I think this is not correct. I think that the duties and rights of both are completely inter-changeable and must be full of giving and serving rather than taking or expecting any thing. This is a maturation of a relationship where when there are no desires from each other. In such a relationship one rises in love rather than the cliched falling in love. Vispi Jokhi --------------------------- Based on the issues addressed by Mahalaxmiji and domestic violence, how to you deal with a situations like that? Can she still follow dharma? What should a person do if she encounters a hubby like that? What are the alternatives available to her? Should she walk out of the home? What do scriptures state in this respect? Audrey (RESPONSES TO THIS PORTION WILL BE POSTED AS A SEPARATE TOPIC. FROM GITA TALK MODERATORS) ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shaliniji Lot of thoughts have been expressed by experienced sadhak. They all are precious. I would say Have ABHINN BHAV (Sentiments of inseparableness, undivided, feeling of oneness). THAT U TWO BECOME ONE ENTITY HAVING TWO SHAPES COMPLIMENTORY TO EACH OTHER. RAJA Gurdasani ---------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. I have nothing new to share except reiterating it in a different way what has been already said... Pati Parmeshwar OR Parmeshwar hi Pati? It is ultimately paremshwar who is praised and prayed in pati. Bhagwan said in BG, if you pray demi-god/goddesses, it reaches me! So called pati in worldly sense is just a very miniscule one - no different then patni - mamaivaansho jive loke...(BG) If saint like Swami Ramsukhdasji has refrained himself from being praised and worshipped , whom are we to promote pati ? Meerabai was visiting a saint. He denied seeing a female. Meerabahi send a message that there is only one male in this entire universe, we all are female, who this new male has popped-up I do want to see him... The saint came out of his hut feeling ashamed and bowed down to Meerabai. Just like patni has her duty to perform, pati equally has his - no difference! Just like pati is an atom of God, patni is too - no difference! If patni can attain salvation worshiping parmeshwar in her pati (demi-god), pati can too if he sees pareshwar in patni (demi- goddess) - no difference! Patni has been treated and worshiped as goddess in tantrik sadhanas, nothing new! Even Ramkrishna Parmhamsa worshiped his wife Ma Sharda as divine mother. So break free of your notion of Pati Parmeshwar and attain salvation just by seeing Parmeshwar in all...! humble regards. always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel ---------------------------- Please act according to your consciousness. S S Bhatt ---------------------------- Hari Om Mahalaxmiji ! Sadhak Venu in fact grasped the concept advanced by Scriptures precisely in his latest post. It is a topic on which a lot of precedences are available. Still I briefly reply to some of your observations: You say: I do not have a problem, provided the man accepts his own shortcomings, and does not pretend to be something he is not. I say: NO DUTY SEEKS RECIPROCATION FROM OTHER SIDE! YOUR DUTY IS OTHER's RIGHT. This dharma is a " bhava " of wife. It has nothing to do with the conduct of husband. Insistence upon hubby accepting his shortcomings is inappropriate and egoistical. This is precisely where this dharma helps wife. God will never make hubby admit his shortcomings ! You say There is difference between seeing my husband as my own personal " god " , and recognizing him as the original, Supreme Personality of Godhead. I say WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? DOES " SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD " NOT EXIST IN HUBBY? IS THERE ANY SPACE DEVOID OF GOD ? Even a space equal to a tip of needle? One who can manifest from a pillar or from a statue made of stone, can He not manifest in husband? By the way God is always personal. You say: I personally would never suggest that any woman give up her own sense of what she considers appropriate conduct. I say: THIS DHARMA CAN BE OBSERVED ONLY BY A " BHAVA/SENSE " OF WIFE THAT IT IS AN APPROPRIATE CONDUCT. You say: There is a point where men will demand things that are totally adharmic in the name of, " surrender " . I say: Every sadhan requires you to become " egoless " . If hubby wants you to do an " adharmic " conduct, do not obey him. Simple ! This dharma does not require you to become servant or slave! Not at all ! Even God does not expect you to be that. You say: There will often be times, in most marriages, where the man does not have perfect conduct. I say: Where is the need for a perfect conduct from other side? Who is perfect? Is wife perfect? Who has right to demand perfection? If hubby seeks that in wife, he is wrong. But how does it matter to her? You say: With the help of a chaste, loving wife, who has maturity, a man can be helped to see his shortcomings without being humiliated. This takes maturity, strength, and power. I say Sure ! You have written too little. A great wife brings back her husband from hell or even from jaws of Yama. She is POWER in herself. She is 1000 times superior to males! She is SHAKTI. You say: Without this maturity, there is every possibility that the woman will allow herself to be abused. I say: The hubby, however cruel he may be, will " actually " become God for a devoted wife- ultimately-but as is the case with every other sadhan after complete annihilation of her ego ! This is promise of Gita and promise of all scriptures! Only the one who tries can know this ! But in practice at the beginning itself generally a woman surrenders and thus easily becomes egoless. You say: It is not appropriate or intelligent to say, " Oh, well, it's her karma " . I say: Every marriage is made in heavens based on your prior contractual obligations. Where is doubt on that? What else except " karma " of each can be responsible for what happens in this world ? Is God that cruel that He will let you suffer on account of others' whims and fancies? Only the " doer " suffers! No one else on his/her behalf. You say: Better to say, if the woman is being sexually and physically abused, even verbally if it is extreme, step away for a while until he has some self control. I say: Why until he has some self control? It is an individual decision. A separate karma in itself. Another option is to leave him forever. Another is to lodge a police complaint. Who says no? You say: How is he serving the Lord if he is abusing the wife? I say: We are talking here about the wife. Even when hubby is good to wife, it is not necessary he is serving God. You say: This goes both ways in husband and wife relationship.....service mood has to be mutual. I say: NO SERVICE MOOD CAN EVER BE MUTUAL. DUTY/SERVICE IS ALWAYS UNILATERAL. One's duty is always right of other. Duty and Right are opposite terms. In any case, Mahalaxmiji, a female has as many options of God Realisation as a male has. It is her prerogative and choice as to which she adopts. Every human being is independent in performing his/her karmas. Pranaams Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Rewritten My dandavat pranams to all in this fourm..... In regard to Vyasaji's inquiry, " Is there harm in seeing husband as God " .....my response is many fold. Does husband want to be seen as God? If he truly has qualities of a sadhak, then he would defer from any open demand for such, giving example of humility, love, affection, and a balanced human being. At the same time, I believe that yes, truly, my husband, and any husband, in the heart desires that the wife should see him as HER god. I do not have a problem, provided the man accepts his own shortcomings, and does not pretend to be something he is not. But there is a vast difference between seeing my husband as my own personal " god " , and recognizing him as the original, Supreme Personality of Godhead. In as much as, one who has a drop of the ocean in his palm, and thinks, " I have the entire ocean " is certainly in illusion.....but at the same time, he or she certainly does have the ocean in the palm of the hand! There is too much abuse toward women today. I have personally taken a course in domestic violence training. Although I recognize the necessity for a wife to be vigilant at all times of her husband's needs, in regard to being considered her worshipful deity, I personally would never suggest that any woman give up her own sense of what she considers appropriate conduct. There is a point where men will demand things that are totally adharmic in the name of, " surrender " . A woman in this age of kali yuga must be fixed, within her own heart, in understanding the tenants of scripture, and the process of elevating her heart, through sadhan, so that she can help her husband. There will often be times, in most marriages, where the man does not have perfect conduct. The idea of him being " God " , with a capital " G " indicates that he can do no wrong. I think that to try to act on this understanding is a big mistake. But to accept him in the position of a " god " to the woman is a different matter. Even the " gods " err at times, the Srimad Bhagavatam is full of descriptions where they became enamoured of their own power and beauty, committed offenses to their guru, and then were cursed, or otherwise fell from their position. With the help of a chaste, loving wife, who has maturity, a man can be helped to see his shortcomings without being humiliated. This takes maturity, strength, and power. Without this maturity, there is every possibility that the woman will allow herself to be abused. This is my answer to Vyasaji's question. I believe he is coming from a position where he does not necessarily even imagine the inappropriate conduct that males, coming forth from disfunctional and irreligious backgrounds, can inflict on their wives. It is not appropriate or intelligent to say, " Oh, well, it's her karma " . Better to say, if the woman is being sexually and physically abused, even verbally if it is extreme, step away for a while until he has some self control. I believe that will give more emphasis to the woman's role of being the better half of her husband, she is trying to help him in serving the Lord, correct? How is he serving the Lord if he is abusing the wife? The Lord says, " One who says he is my devotee is not my devotee, but one who says he is the devotee of my devote is actually my bhakta " . This goes both ways in husband and wife relationship.....service mood has to be mutual. I believe that to encourage a woman to have a bona fide guru, who guides her to bhakti, linking with the Lord through devotion, will allow her to discern how to treat everyone with humility and grace, including her husband In the tenth canto of Srimad bhagavatm, there were several wives of smarta brahmans, who against their husbands desires, took food stuffs to Krsna and Balaram. The husbands were too absorbed in their rituals to pay any attention to the boys. In this pastime, it is clearly explained that the wives were so dear to the Lord, due to their willingness to accept His position, set aside their dharmic relations, and serve Him regardless of any external considerations. respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi --------------------------- Hari Om By the way , however he may be, Is hubby not always in mind? Is he not a " real " Teacher? Is he not Protector? Is he not Creator? Is he not Preserver? Is he not Controller? Does he not carry the same burden which wife does? Like God, does he not annihilate/destroy ego? Does he not prevail ultimately? Does he not love ? Does anybody want to lose him? What then is the difference between him and Him ? Does God not give pains? Does God not rule? Does God not punish? Does God not instil fear? Is God not authoritative? Does God not wash our eyes with tears till they are clean enough to behold the reality? What do you say dear Sadhaks? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Dear Sadhakom Vyasji asked a final question, in his latest response, on 'seeing God in and treating husband as God'. This posting has taken many turns and apparently is reaching this end - 'husband as God'. This seems to be a logical for the discussion. When you treat 'husband' or any body else for that matter as God, the standards mentioned for 'pativrata', plus many more could be there, are a automatic fall out of such belief. Spiritual-minded humans goal is to reach God and there is no best way to treat the closest person with you as 'God', in this case 'Pati' treating 'Patni' or Patni treating Pati as God. Its the attitude, not the standards that make the way to Goal. Both Pati and Patni have equal chance to win the game in this field of spirituality. If my fellow saadhkom review the entire set of responses on this topic, you would see a connection 'treat him or her as God' is the basis for the responses. Regards Venu Komanduri --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Thanks and regards to Sashikalaji, diamonds of advice from you to ladies. Being a lady, you experienced and poured them out of life and heart. Easy to understand and are logical too. What you mentioned here is not as a tattvavaada, but as a tattvadarsibhi!! Perhaps points 7 and 11 need some more details on your direction, or your advice can be misunderstood. Remember your advice is universal and applicable to all daughter-in-laws. I would tend to add for point 7 is 'do not reply, but understand her before making your point', for 11 is 'listen and share your appreciation on good and concerns on bad'. 'Ignoring' can cause difficulties later. There has to be balance in relationship. Regards Venu Komanduri -------------------------------- Pativrata means to be faithful to your husband. If she conducts herself like this then her home will be like heaven. Her family will prosper and by doing her duty she will be adding good karmas which will definitely lead her to the right path and ultimately to emancipation. Hari Shanker Deo ---------------------------- Shree Hari, Ram Ram SUMMARY SADHAK RESPONSES: 1. what are the standards of one being a Pativrata wife? A Pativrata wife is one who - - Accepts " husband " as he is, and serves him through words, deeds and thoughts i.e. follows Patni Dharma (wife's duties) rigorously. - Has implicit faith in husband. A rare quality! e.g. Tulsi - Does not seek any reciprocation from her husband - Gives unconditionally, without expectation in return - Simply by seeing Bhagwaan in her husband, can attain realization. Nothing else is needed - Is focused on her and her duty alone and becomes the shadow of her husband. - Draupadi is ideal wife - read Draupadi's advice to Rukmini. - Sita ideal, provided there is Ram on other side - Pativrata Dharma is not dependent upon husband's conduct - Pativrata Dharma is not " servanthood " at all. It is a " bhava " - Pativrata Dharma is a special short cut given to women, guaranteed method for liberation/God Realization - It is VERY VERY easy in Kaliyuga to observe this Dharma. Almost all women can observe this dharma. Key is relinquishing " Ego " - " Both the Pati (in vrata) with wife " is the complete seNse in PATIVRATA. With Rama-Sita was a Pativrata. - Per Vyas - Dharma is sadachar (virtuous, righteous, moral conduct that should be followed), but it is practically impossible to stick to in todays life. - Chastity comes from your inner soul. 2.How does she conduct herself? - do duty and proactively extend even more, obey all in husband's family, do not talk back, don't react, listen, observe and stay quiet, do not add fuel to fire ...They know more about each other than you do. Take care of younger children and sister-in-law. - she has strength of a savitri to follow him to naraka and bring him back, and also be as protective as durga when it comes to duty. - SATHYAM,DHARMAM,SHANTHI AND AHIMSA essential qualities for a woman. (Gita Chapter 13) - She acts according to her husband's desire, obediently and most naturally. - act according to your consciousness. - Bhavas towards husband come comparitively effortless. - THIS DHARMA CAN BE OBSERVED ONLY BY A " BHAVA/SENSE " OF WIFE - tolerance and toleration are the foundation of an indian marriage - Mostly listen to your heart and you won't go wrong. - Forgive others for their mistakes. This will strengthen the relationship. - Respect and love the new family - RESPECT AND LOVE ELDERS IN THE NEW FAMILY - Beg Krushna to bless us with divinely qualities and lead a contented life 3.How does her conduct impact her home? - No ego clashes. - benefits in personal, family, societal, all of mankind. following Bhagwaan's ordinance, physical well-being, harmony, peace, spreading fragrant happiness to all. - Always Peace. Respect! Purity! Power! She is " Grihalaxmi " ! She is " Annapurna " (Feeder) !! She is " Shakti " . - Obedient children - Live a " Pavitra " life - pious feelings and acts both inner and outworldly with being malign to none. One should love all and that is the way leading to God. 4.How does she get emancipated from this worldly ocean merely because she is Pativrata? - surrendering to husband far more natural than surrendering to God, our personal experiences have proved that. - all karmas, gets dispelled though her husband may be bad - it is a chance for liberation from rebirth that only woman have. - complete surrender, where wife has no ego, no desire, no wishes of her own at all. - She gets Realisation. She gets emancipation. She gets rewarded by Paramatma. - A great wife is Shakti herself - principles of surrender leading to " egoless " , " desireless " and " mamataless " (Gita 2:71) - If we neglect to cultivate our love and affection for God, can we truly find satisfaction? - Prayer for blessings to walk alongside with husband, led and guided by God and with presence of Guru at all times. - Pativrata i.e. Faithful conduct will lead to good karmas, righteous path, prosperous family, heaven on earth and ultimately emancipation. - ABHINN BHAV (Sentiments of inseparableness, undivided, feeling of oneness). THAT U TWO BECOME ONE ENTITY HAVING TWO SHAPES COMPLIMENTORY TO EACH OTHER. - Bottom like is just like a married woman does not forget her husband, similarly never forget Paramatama. Do you think you are ready to be a pativrita ? - Just accept firmly -Only God is mine, and I am God's. This whole world is God's, so serve all as God's per Gita's without expecting anything. - Sri Krishna is foremost, and knowing that our relationship with Him will not end, there is a deeper confidence that no one can take away. - It is unwillingness to observe " egolessness " or drop the ego that prevents one from following this dharma. - Surrender unto Paramatma and do your duty. - Accept Bhagwaan as everything (all relations) - Do not give up your devotion to God - Know yourself! All answers lie within! - Key is to being satisfied within one's own Self (where Supreme Lord resides). - NO DUTY SEEKS RECIPROCATION FROM OTHER SIDE! YOUR DUTY IS OTHER's RIGHT. This dharma is a " bhava " of wife. IS THERE REFERENCE IN GITA? - Believe, there is no direct reference in Gitaji, but general, in Gita (16-24). Ramcharit Manas, there is a specific reference on this subject. Fortitude, piety, a friend and a wife are four tests in times of adversity. She is convinced in her heart of hearts that she cannot even dream in the world of a man other than her husband. OTHER - - option of pativrata dharma is a preferable one though not a compulsion. - Even in earlier days many wives did not qualify - Sita, Draupadi - Today's time, a chaste wife is one who maintains fidelity, stays together through good and bad times, and views other men as either brother or father. - absolutely necessary girl - patibrata and boy - patnibrata - Dharmapatni- one who walks the path of dharma along with the husband. She ensures that the husband walks the path of dharma! - Marriages are destiny for the couple - only factor functioning is " prior contractual obligations " . - Marriage Vows- not " patni " - but beloved friend. Friendship, trust is the cornerstone. A two way street.. to walk the spiritual path. - Compatibility, man-woman and their families - very important - NO Dowry; No Extravagant Weddings or flaunting of Wealth - Be humble, loving and caring - Become a daughter to the new family - also learn from your mum-in-law because she knows your husband the best. - It should not be a burden to become " chaste wife " , rather natural - Marriage is Sacred, offering everything one is given - body, mind and spirit - love, loyalty and compassion - Key to good married life - " chastity " - monogamous relationship, brings social structure much needed for healthy progeny. - Is Chastity a one-sided thing? Unfair? - are you sure that pati himself is as chaste as woman is expected to be? This appears male-oriented views. - Only the " doer " suffers! No one else on his/her behalf. - Acceptance by both families, without interference - Sacred Mantra - " You cannot get a better spouse than the spouse you have now " . - Communication - Key - Love so much such that one cannot live without the love. Love conquers all! - the body is for creation, full expression, celebration - Swamiji's focus was more vivek, how to quickly attain Salvation! - Read Naari dharma (duties of a woman) - why such a hard line for women? The scriptures say, what is most precious and worthy of honor has to be safe guarded accordingly with utmost care and love. - NO SERVICE MOOD CAN EVER BE MUTUAL. DUTY/SERVICE IS ALWAYS UNILATERAL. - Many good Gita Press books for Nari dharma - standards are written mostly by male community and obviously are biased - A husband that expects Pativrata must ensure that he is deserving husband to Pativrata. - there is no best way to treat the closest person with you as 'God'. Simply speaking treat Him or Her as God. - many similarities between Hubby and God ! - whom are we to promote pati? both can attain salvation worshiping parmeshwar in each other. break free of the notion of Pati Parmeshwar and attain salvation just by seeing Parmeshwar in all...! - duties and rights of both are completely inter-changeable and must be full of giving and serving rather than taking or expecting any thing. - maturation of a relationship where when there are no desires from each other. In such a relationship one rises in love. - In each of the married woman's roles there are certain duties and responsibilities. she should not lose her self respect and deal with situations with self-respect. If harassed, her parents must always support her. Ram Ram ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman Advices which I gave to my daughters before marriage – 1. Never praise your parents ( us )before your in laws. We know how to command respect and honor. We don't need you for that. If you praise us , then some day you may have to hear criticism also. 2. Take particular care of the sisters of your husband. " JAAI SORI, MAAI SORI " ( If daughter is happy, mother is happy) ! 3. Don't react to any one's conduct vis a vis other. They might be having their own reasons, old issues supporting the conduct. 4. Give your views if there is need. Do not insist. Never talk with your in laws reg your husband. They know him better than you ! 5. Never talk regarding your in laws with your husband ! He knows them better than you. 6. Don't bother if they talk with your husband regarding you. They are entitled to do that. He is their son/ brother ! 7. Do whatever mother in law tells you. Don't reply back , even if she is bit harsh/unreasonable! It takes two to fight. 8. Never talk leave aside complain about any one to your husband. A lot of things loose significance of their own. Talking about them only prevents their natural death. 9. You simply do your duty. Serve your in laws more than you served us. There is no ego of yours vis a vis them. Because you are agent of your husband before them. Serve them not as " your " Mother/ Father/Sister in law . Serve because they are mother/father/sister of " your " husband. Act not in your independent capacity vis a vis them, but as agent of your husband. Then nothing will hurt you. Because you have not established any relationship of your own. All relationships are due to relationship of your husband. ( Once you are an agent, ego reduces drastically) 10. Respect everyone, but be " devoted " to only your husband. 11. If your husband talks about any of his relations, bad or good, listen and ignore. Say – you are the best judge. Never add fuel to the fire. If according to you he is wrong, say so with reasons. 12. Take particular care of children in your sasuraal. Spend money on them. Love them really. 13. Never tell a lie to any one particularly to your husband- come what may ! If you don't want to say – better boldly say " I don't want to comment " than " I don't know " , if you really know. Either keep mum or speak truth as a law. Truth prevails. 14. Never compare before any one your parents' house and your new home. 15. Be pro active in household work. Become happy if you are required to do some more work on some day. Never hesitate in working more. The body doesn't depreciate if you work more. It becomes stronger. Feel happy if you have lightened someone else " work load. " I will work, you take rest " – this should be the goal. 16. SELF RESPECT means respect of self by self not respect of self by others. Doing one's duty diligently is real self respect. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- Hari Om A genuine Q arises ! Whether in fact this " dharma " is the easiest for a lady to follow? Well ! Answer is that nature/circumstances definitely help. Consider the followings: JUST AS 1 When a girl leaves her parents' home upon her marriage, she never demands foodgrains, tea, sugar, bread, butter etc from her parents. She knows that her husband, that is taking her to his house will arrange for her meals also. There is no doubt in her mind. She " naturally " does not worry. SIMILARLY: This worrilessness has also to be attribute of any sadhak who surrenders under BG 18:66 ! One who surrenders should not worry how he will be taken care of by the God ! But in that surrender, do worries cease easily ? No ! Point proved: Surrender by wife is more natural/spontaneous/ worriless than the surrender under 18:66 ! Nature helps wife ! JUST AS 2 A wife NEVER forgets her husband- come what may ! Naturally ! Even when she goes to her parents' home, but after sometime she says to her mother - " I must go now. He must be experiencing difficulties without home food " . SIMILARLY A devotee (one who accepts I am of the God, only God is mine) is supposed to never forget God. But is it that easy ? No ! Our experience proves that ! Point proved : It is easier and natural for a lady to observe pativrata dharma. 3 A newly wed lady " surrenders " everything- lock , stock and barrel. Her home, her parents, her body, her " gotra " , her caste (surname), her dressing, her relations, her conduct, her existing living style, her friends, everything in favour of her new home. Nothing is old. Some hubbies affectionately change her name also. Nothing me, everything you. SHE ACTUALLY DOES IT and LIVES WITH IT ! Similarly : A devotee is required to do that when he " surrenders " to God. His conduct has to change. Nothing me, everything God. Which one is easier? Why aforesaid difference of easyness? Fact is that there are 2 things: 1 Acceptance by self ( This a devotee " does " by pondering over - I am of God. This is over, presumably. In case of wife it is automatic and natural- I am married. A pativrata only has to slightly change it- My God is my husband. This is pending and under debate ! 2 Implementation of decision, acceptance , strengthening of the same. Now this is difficult for a devotee. Quite natural and easy for a wife ( Refer aforesaid 3 examples drawn from our direct experiences. I can give dozens of such examples) ! Implementation under acceptance! What we are debating here is which course is easy. Both in acceptance and implementation , wife stands superior and faster than other devotee. Now she has option. " I am of God ( husband is not God. I have duties towards him) " or " My husband is God " ! In both the cases she has to do same- Chop wood, carry water ! In both the cases " egolessness " is mandatory !! Then why not consider hubby as God? Does God not exist in him? Is it not a certified independent method of God Realisation? Any shame in that? Any loss ? Any impropriety? Any thing wrong? What do you say, Dear Sadhaks? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --------------------------- When the husband expects that his wife should be Pativrata, he should ensure that he is deserving husband to Pativrata, that he is a `Patnivrat`..If the husband is neglecting the wife or illtreating her, she should just neglect him and, if it comes to that , leave him and look after her children. The one sided Pativrata concept is the outcome of male dominated society. Gee Waman ------------------------------- Hello Shalini, Chastity comes from your inner soul. I remember once when a nauch girl wanted to sing for swami vivekananda at a King's court and he refused because he was a Sannyasi. She became upset with him and sang a song of Lord Krishna. Her song brought him out and made him regret his refusal. Chastity is in the mind and soul, not on how one dresses or behaves. If your mind and body and soul belong to your husband, then no matter what anyone says your only guide should be to please your husband. And only when he is dharmic. You should have the strength of a savitri to follow him to naraka and bring him back, and also be as protective as durga when it comes to duty. But mostly listen to your heart and you won't go wrong. The little voice in your head should be your best guide. Your habits and Character would have been formed from birth by your household. Do not give then up but also learn from your mum-in- law because she knows your husband the best. And get protection from your father-in-law if he is a fair man when it comes to keeping your mum-in-law from bullying you. One final suggestion for all these are but suggestions, I remember once my mother's mother-in-law had made 3 chutneys for three sons when they were going to work. My mother commented one is enough and that she is spoiling her children. (Just newly married), A decade later when my mother had two sons, me and my younger brother, my father came home to find that she (my mother) had made Chapati for me and Puri for my brother). Case in point. Hope this helps some. Prashanth --------------------------- Hari Om. The only way to explain the code and conduct of an indian woman is MA SITA. Even today we have live telecast of Ramayana is to make us follow the foot steps of Sita. THe tolerance and toleration are the foundation of an indian marriage. We should read Sundara Gandam now and then to develop such divinely qualities. Then comes the 13th chapter of Gita---It teaches what qualities a man who follows krushna should have. He clearly explains the imporance of SATHYAM,DHARMAM,SHANTHI AND AHIMSA. I THINK THAT EVERYWOMAN born as an indian should possess these qualities. The next step is to follow the Bhagavadham where there are vital points that we have to follow. we should beg Krushna to bless us with such divinely qualities and lead a contented life. Every woman should keep reading such divinely writings to free ourselves from lust,greed and filth. We should be able to forgive others for their mistakes. This will strenthen our relationship. In india Marraige is a commitment and resposibility. It is a bondage for the growth of a cultured family. Its not possible to just advice as experience of each woman will vary. But we should respect and love the new family with whom our bondage is initiated. The first step is RESPECT AND LOVE ELDERS IN THE NEW FAMILY. With regards, Ushasridhar.(we should not just advice but practice it before advising) (Hope this would be published Krushna!!!!!) --------------------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum, With deepest respect, and appreciation, I would like to accept that Vyasaji's concerns that in this age, a wife's service to her husband should be considered extremely urgent, high level of service to the Lord. (I pray my wording is correct, please advise if I have phrased incorrectly) I am asking for clarification, please. You mentioned that this type of dharma is covered in Krsna's instructions in the Bhagavad Gita. I know of only two verses, which I personally do not see as referring to service to the husband as being bhakti, although service to a Vaisnava (one who is absorbed in devotion himself) is bhakti, regardless if that person is husband or not. So, service to husband could be bhakti if the man is following a mood of service to God, otherwise if he is not devoted to the Lord? (I will answer my own question....if the wife is devoted enough, through her association and prayer, it is possible, though not always happening, that the man may be affected.......sometimes the women can end up dead in the attempt, if he is a person who is prone to loosing control of his emotions.) The two verses I am familiar with in Gita are first: chapter 1 verse 40, adharmabhibhavat krsna, pradusyanti kula-striyah strisu dustasu varsneya, jayate varna-sankarah " When irreligion is prominent in the family, O Krsna, the women of the family become polluted, and from the degradation of womenhood, O descendant of Vrsni, comes unwanted progeny. " In the explanation of this verse, by Srila A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami, it is said, " The varnasrama religions's principles were so designed that the good population would prevail in society for the general spiritual progress of state and community. Such population depends on the chastity and faithfulness of its womanhood. " also mentioned, " On the failure of such varnasrama-dharma, naturally the women become free to act and mix with men, and thus adultery is indulged in at the risk of unwanted population. Irresponsible men also provoke adultery in society, and thus unwanted children flood the human race at the risk of war and pestilence. " These words of my guru are certainly very pertinent to today's society.....there is always consideration of war by some of the leaders just to keep down the animalistic population, many of whom, due to their misfortune, were not wanted by their father, or their mothers, or both. This is a heart breaking situation, there are many perhaps reading this forum today who may be pained at the words of Gita, as they may never have known their father, or their birth mother. My heart cries for those in this condition, and I pray you understand that I am not writing this to cause any grief. Please forgive me, if my words are causing any pain. But my point in bringing out these verses, apart from appreciating that service to the husband and family is essential for society to be functioning nicely, is that this verse does not emphasise bhakti, devotion to the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna, or Rama, or however an individual would refer to him as. The other verse I(I mentioned two verses from Gita that I am familiar with) that mentions women, is in the tenth chapter, verse 34, where the Lord says, " Among women I am fame, fortune, fine speech, memory, intelligence, steadfastness and patience. " Certainly, all these qualities enhance a marriage, and a women who possesses them, but they do not in and of themselves constitute devotion to God. Please kindly give your understanding, from Gita, where devotion to the husband is considered topmost. The last chapter gives one verse, which is often quoted, perhaps misquoted, to emphasize (in temple situations) that husbands should NOT be given priority..18.65..... " man-mana bhava mad-bhakto, mad-yaji mam namaskuru, mam evaisyasi satyam te, pratijane priyo 'si me " Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend. " .....as well 18:66...... sarva-dharmam parityajya, mam ekam saranam vraja, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo, moksasisyami ma sucah..... " Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear. " next verse is also very pertinent, (18:67) idam te natapaskaya, nabhaktaya kadacana, na casusrusave vacyam, na ca mam yo 'bhyasuyati......... " This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me. " So, for a women to stay with one man is certainly an austerity. The newness of it wears off, the mood of service has to be predominant, and thus the heart will become purified, when the motive is to serve, and not to be the enjoyer.....but this is not the only venue for women to serve in this day and age. Respectfully submitted, Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------------ Hari Om With due and really heartfelt respect to all my Sadhak Brethren, I must state that from what I understood so far from the deliberations, there are many wrong statements from many sadhaks this time on this question. I give a correction list which of course is open for deliberation . 1 Pativrata Dharma is not " servanthood " at all. It is a " bhava " (inner expression duly certified by dozens and dozens of Holy Scriptures - almost every Scripture and Every Saint- of Sanatan Dharma. Servants are not called " Devis " / " mothers " / " Satis " / Shaktis and are not remembered respected for aeons/ages !!. They are ultimate powers / masters and never servants. 2 It is VERY VERY easy in Kaliyuga to observe this Dharma than " practically impossible " ! I would agree if someone suggested to me that for a female any other dharma(other than pativrata dharma) in Kaliyuga was VERY VERY difficult, almost impossible. Any other Dharma - I repeat - if she is married. 3 There is no need of a Raam on other side to bring out a Sita from a female. Absolutely no need. Every female irrespective of how her hubby is can conveniently observe this dharma. 4 It is a wrong statement to suggest that there is no reference of this Dharma of in Holy Gita. All Dharmas are covered in merely 700 verse long Holy Gita. It is another matter that we do not understand the " bhaavas " of Gita. 5 One's duty is always right of another ! Hence between the duties/rights of husband and wife , there will be always dis- similarity. There will always be clashes of ego. Winner is the one who relinquishes ego. It is not that in any other sadhan relinquishment of ego is not mandatory. FACT IS THAT IN ALL KNOWN SADHANS " Egolessness " is mandatory. 6 Among the alternatives , even if they are in dozens, for a female the observance of " Pativrata Dharma " is the easiest, fastest, best, the most adored and the most respected . Kaliyuga or for that purpose no other Yuga can ever be an obstacle to the same. On the contrary, the Kaliyuga is the most ideal yuga for this " dharma " for female and of course the easiest. 7 What can be a talk of similarilty between two life forms where one is decidedly 1000 times superior to another? Non sense ! Females are always superior to males. Unfortunately most of them do not know/accept/believe that. 8 Not seeking reciprocation is not unique to this sadhana alone , it is mandatory for every sadhana prescribed by every religion. 9 Scriptures like Gita are meant certainly for all genders! True ! Then how on earth some one can claim that a particular dharma is prescribed by males ? Isn't that a height of non sense? Unbelievable !! 10. If Puranas, Vedas, Scriptures, Smritis, Holy texts like Gita or Ramayana etc are respected - they are respected because they hold true in all ages, all yugas, including present Kali Yuga. 11. Gita is meant for humanity at large for all castes, creeds, colours etc Hence it is not surprising that all dharmas/disciplines are covered by it but not specifically named. 12. Real reason behind resistance to this Dharma or argument beyond logic in connection therewith - according to my personal humble view- is not Kaliyuga or present times, but stupidity and incapacity / unwillingness to observe " egolessness " . The supporters therefore logically will not be able to accomplish any " saadhan " as " egolessness " is mandatory everywhere ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -- Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Shalini, thanks for a good question! On this topic, believe, there is no direct reference in Gitaji but in general, there is a related verse Gita (16-24): tasmac chastram pramanam te karyakarya-vyavasthitau jnatva shastra-vidhanoktam karma kartum iharhasi " Therefore, let the scriptures be your authority in determining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Knowing this, you should act only on accordance with the sanction of scripture " . In Ramcharit Manas, there is a specific reference on this subject. The " ideal of Women " comes in Aranyna Kandh (5/1-6), when Lord Rama, Sitaji and Laxmanji visited Atri Rishi as they were leaving Chiterkut. Atri Rishi's wife Ansuiyaji gives the instructions to Sitaji: ansuiya ke pda gahi Sita, mili bahorri susila binita. risipatni mana sukha adhikai, asisa dei nikata baithai (1) dibya basana bhusana pahirae, je nita nutana amala suhae. kaha risibadhu sarasa mridu bani, NARI-DHARMA kachu byaja bakhani (2) matu pita bharta hitkari, mitaprada saba sunu rajakumari. amita dani bharta bayadehi, adhama so nari jo seva na tehi (3) dhiraja dharma mitra aru nari, apad kala parikhahi cari. brddha rogabass jaRa dhanahina, amaha badhira krodhi ati dina (4) aisehu pati kara kie apamana, nari pava jamapura dukha nana. ekai dharma eka brata nama, kaya-bacana mana pada prema (5) Jaga PATIBRATA cari bidhi ahahi, badapurna samta saba kahahi. uttama ke asa base mana mahi, sapanehu ana purusa jag nahi (6) Sunu sita tava nsama sumiri nari patibrata karahi tohi pranapriya rama kahiu katha samsar hita (doha 5-B) Meaning: Then Sita, who was so good natured and modest, met Anusya and clasped her feet. The seer's wife felt extremely pleased at heart; she blessed her and seated her by her side. The she arrayed Sitaji in heavenly robes and ornaments which remained ever new, clean and charming. In affectionate and mild tones the holy woman then began the discourse on wifely virtues, making Her an occasion for such discourse " Listen, O' Princess: a mother, father and brother are all kind to us; but they bestow only limited joy. A husband, however, bestows unlimited joy (in the shape of blessedness), O Videha's (Janaka, who had lost the consciousness of the body) daughter; vile is the woman who refuses to serve him. Fortitude, piety, a friend and a wife - these four are put to the test only in times of adversity. A woman who treats her husband with disrespect - even though he is old, sick, dull-headed, indigent, blind, deaf, wrathful or most wretched - shall suffer various torments in hell (the abode of Yama). Devotion of body, speech and mind to her husband's feet is the only duty, sacred vow and penance of a woman. Thee are four types of faithful wives in this world: so declares the Vedas, the Puranas and all the saints. A woman of best type is convinced in her heart of hearts that she cannot even dream in the world of a man other than her husband. O' Sita, women will maintain their vow of fidelity to their husband by invoking your very name, Sri Rama being dear to you as your own life. It is for the good of the world that I have spoken to you on the subject. " Now the question might arise, why such a hard line for women? The scriptures say, what is most precious and worthy of honor has to be safe guarded accordingly with utmost care and love. I am assuming that a standard must be there for men for their charter of duties || Ram Ram || Humble regards, Madan Kaura ------------------------------- Hari Om Let us straight away go to the fundamentals. All Scriptures sing glories of Pativrata Dharma. A wife at the time of marriage itself by nature and the very circumstances is ideally placed for the role, hence it is very easy for her to get going. Next easier task is a male's " Service to his parents " . Both are INDEPENDENT GUARANTEED METHODS OF LIBERATION/GOD REALISATION - if done as one does his duties (dharma)- as per all Scriptures and particularly as per Holy Gita principles . But in case of male , his household duties extend to a much higher scale and hence it becomes rather difficult and more effortful to concentrate exclisively on his parents. But for a female it is comparitively effortless and quite easy to devote exclusively her " bhavas " (inner expressions) towards her husband. In both the cases , BG 7:19 (2nd part- Vasudev Sarvam) read with BG 4:11 ( first part " ye yatha maam prapyadante taanstatheva bhajamyaham " ) and Principles of surrender BG 18:66 are basic verses. In case of female, additionally BG 2:71 status of being " egoless " , " desireless " and " mamataless " is achieved faster. (There may be many more verses of BG supporting her, but I have picked these verses to explain her conduct.I will add more verses if they occur to me. I shall be very happy if sadhaks discuss additional supporting verses too of BG. I am sure there will be many more. In fact all Gita readers can attempt this really good exercise ) BG 7: 19 principle of " all this is God " - Vasudev Sarvam , allows wife to see God in her husband. When all is God then there is definitely God in husband also. Hence wife determines/accepts her husband as God however or whatever he is- AS IT IS ! BG 4:11 says- However, the way devotees worship Me, so do I respond/approach them. Since wife sees her God in her husband, hence God manifests to her on account of her worship to her husband only. Then comes the principles of surrender under 18:66. Here the wife has only one dharma - the service/shelter of her husband. Her husband is God for her and hence her surrender to husband is surrender to God. There is no need for her then to observe any other divine karmas like fasting, meditation, holy dips, worships, charities etc etc. Only one rule, one task, one duty ! Here the natural circumstances additionally help wife. The principles come very very handy/ naturally to her. Also come very handy/naturally to her the requirements of getting peace/liberation under BG 2:71 ! Hence she gets liberated in only one life time easily. I may add here that in my view it( Pativrata dharma) is only an option, a really powerful option, not a compulsion for a female. She may like Mira Bai decide to see God in Krishna and not link her devotion to her husband exclusively. But then there may be a difference between " devotion " and " duties " . There too she has to consider husband as God's representative and do same " chop wood and carry water " but with a different " bhava " .. Here she sees husband as God and seeks God in husband only. Hence the option of pativrata dharma is a preferable one though not a compulsion. There is not a remotest clash here. In next posting we shall discuss, how quite naturally, easily and without even knowing , an ideal wife by her conduct/duties starts meeting with the standards / requirements of the aforesaid Gita verses- once she accepts her husband as God on AS IS WHERE IS BASIS. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------------- Namaste Both the question and the responses by sadhaks are educative and naturally interesting to all of us. I request Brother Vyasji to specifically tell as to whether suggestion of Sadhanaji to be primarily of God ( not husband) and then doing duty is permitted as per Scriptures and if so, which alternative is better and why. Which is easier? A slightly detailed observations regarding the pro and cons of both alternatives will help . Pls also address common feeling that half of husband's punyas get transferred to wife and half of wife's sins get transferred to husband. Is it correct? Asha Verma ---------------------------- " Both the Pati (in vrata) with wife " is the complete seNse in PATIVRATA. With Rama-Sita was a Pativrata. Numerous wives were unfortunate. They didn't qualify like Sita corrected Rama at times; Draupadi as well. Dakshayini did not return home when she was responsible for her husband Siva's humiliation in her parents' home. E.g. Ahalya, Tara and Mandodari instead of no equal Pati to march who had a Vrata, are still counted among the pativratas who were actually Sativratas. i.e. they had a Vrata of Sati; With Dashratha, Kaikeyi was neither a pativrata nor a sativrata; that' all. Dr Shastry ----------------------------- Dear Shaliniji, Please refer Mahabharata (VanaParva)where Krushna with Satyabhama visited the Pandavas first time after DyutaKrida. Satyabhama asked Draupadi how she is controlling all Pandavas. Panchali replies that by following Pativrata Dharma, & she explained the same to Satyabhama. Please read those carefully. It is practically impossible to follow in todays life. My personnel opinion is that even Panchali have not followed it according to Mahabharata. According to Vyas - Dharma is Sadachara & you should stick on it. jay Shrikrushna Anand Joshi ---------------------------- Dear All, gitapress has very good books at throw away prices in different languages. you can go through them. Like - Bhartiya Sanskriti shastron mein nari dharm Adarsh Nari Sushila Nari Shiksha Bhakta Nari Nari Dharma Nari Ank hope your queries regarding chastity, ideal wife, women dharma and goal of womens life can be realised by reading them. regards kalrav pande ---------------------------- Dear Sadhika Shaliniji Since you have contacted Gita Talk forum, to the extent I read Gita, Gita has specified various yoga methods for peaceful life management and they are applicable to all human beings - by mentioning the word 'yah' (whoever). No distinction made between the sexes or castes or religions even. I respect female to my heart and consider them higher in their role of reproduction and upbringing. If you find any word in my response offensive, that may be due to my wrong choice of word but not the intent. If you are charmed by the respect shown for 'Pativrata', please take the spirit. The standards are written mostly by male community and obviously are biased. Husband and wife should have same standards to each other - Pativrata and Sativrata. Going extra mile always helps your partner, but not to the extent you lose your freedom to pray God / stand for justice and stand for what you think is right. Like many wise people mentioned in this post, you may consider God as your priority for liberation and definitely husband and wife can combinedly make it more practicable if they are able to see God in each other to begin with. Finally you are the judge and so use your judgement. God bless you and your marriage. Regards Venu Komanduri ---------------------------- Venuji, please post your other question as a separate TOPIC. thank you, Ram Ram ---------------------------- ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhika, Chaste wife is one who considers all other men as her brothers, friends or sons. But chastity is just one condition of being a pativrita. 1. what are the standards of one being a Pativrata wife? Accepting " husband " as he is, and serving him through words, deeds and thoughts is considered the Patni Dharma(wife's duties). One who follow patnidharma rigorously is called pativrita. 2.How does she conduct herself? She acts according to her husband's desire. She is the most obedient, humble servant of her husband. 3.How does her conduct impact her home? No ego clashes. 4.How does she get emancipated from this worldly ocean merely because she is Pativrata? Its not " merely " . This is a path of complete surrender, where wife has no ego, no desire, no wishes of her own at all. This is a kind of " tapa " . Nothig is for the wife, everything is for the husband only. She considers husband superior to God. It is kind of bhakti yoga, where the wife accepts her husband as God. Do you think you are ready to be a pativrita ? I would say that accept Krishna as your God instead of accepting a human form (husband) as yr God. Just accept firmly -Only God is mine, and I am God's.This whole world is God's, so serve the world including yr husband and in laws according to Gita's principles without expecting anything.Bring Love, care and happiness in yr family by serving egolessly, considering everyone as God's. Read Gita and apply its principle in daily life and you will be fine. with best wishes and Love, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------ Hari Om It is not at all surprising to find a lot of responses to this question. However as I see majority of the responses insist for " ideal combination " . That is against the very concept, very theme, very reality of marital life. " Marriages are made in heaven " . Marriages are destiny for the couple- only factor functioning is " prior contractual obligations " . Otherwise how can two souls who were so strangers sometime back get so close that later on the beard on the face of male becomes only the distinction between two souls. A pativrata wife doesnot seek any reciprocation from her husband. She is focussed on her and her duty alone. She becomes the shadow of her husband. Nothing explains more clearly the principles of " surrender " to a sadhak than the conduct of an ideal wife. The more stubborn a husband is, more shine comes in the role of wife. Hence let the discussion not insist on " bilateral " conduct. It is easy to lay down conditions for an ideal marital life. How wife should be and how husband should be. Question here is how a wife should be- irrespective of how a husband is- Raam, Raavana, Dhritrashtra, whatever or however he is. Hence let us talk of the wife alone. She gets Realisation. She gets emancipation. She gets rewarded by Paramatma and His Divine laws and principles. She gets highest respect ultimately from all quarters . Look at the end result: In the home of a pativrata wife, there is always peace. There is a power emanating from the very presence of the lady- such a power that even an evil thought can not come in the mind of other person in her presence. She is Queen of the House. She is " Grihalaxmi " ! She is " Annapurna " (Feeder) !! She is power in herself. She is " Shakti " . Her children are always obedient. She gets universally respected . Even the air which touches her body becomes pure enough to purify others. There is a special aura around her. She is the ultimate Lady ! We shall discuss next the principles governing her conduct. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ My humble respects to all in this forum. I have just a little thought to offer here.....that isn't always understood unitl a woman has gone through a lot of experiences. If any individual, (man or woamn) wants to be happy in a relationship, the key is to being satisfied within one's own self. As much as we are thinking that the clue to our happiness comes from the other person, we will be unhappy. Within our hearts, each and every one of us, is the Supreme Lord. Unless He is remembered, glorified, served, etc, as well as the husband, (or vice versa, for the man) how can the living entity feel satisifed? Certainly, executing dharma of a wife is essential, it is part of being a cultured human being. It is however, secondary to relationship with the original husband of all, Sri Krsna. When we know in our hearts (or we should know) that He is foremost, and our relationship with Him will not end, there is a deeper confidence that no one can take away. Without this confidence, we with always be looking for approval and confirmation from persons in this world....watch out! We will lose ourself if this becomes our focus. Do not give up your devotion to God, even if your married life demands all your time. It is not truly our time.....not being able to pamper ourselves, to knit, crochet, to read our favorite books, or go to the gym, hairdresser, etc. may all be sacrificed, but if a wife sacrifices her time to give bhajan to her relationship with the Lord, then there will be no peace. That is my opinion......as the wife of Ramachandra Dasa. gurudeve, vraja-vane, vraja bhumi vasi jane, suddha bhakte, ara vipra gane, istha mantre, hari name, yugala bhajana kame, kara ratri apurva yatane, dari mana charane tomara, jani yache ebe sara, krsna bhakti vina ara, nahi guche jivera samsara, karma, jnana, tapa, yoga, sakalai ta karma bhoga, karma chadaite keha nare, sakala chadiya bal, sraddha devira guna gal, yanra krpa bhakti dite pare chadi damba anuksana, smara asta tattva mana tara kahe niskapati rati sei rati pratanaya, sri dasa gosvami pai, ei bhaktivinoda kare nati Only one verse of the translation remains solidified in my consciousness..... " karma, jnana, tapa, yoga, sakalai ta karm bhoga " .....which means that all these processes, of karma, jnana, yoga....are actually cheating. They do NOT in and of themselves produce bhakti, devotion to the Supreme Lord. My humble prayer, oh newly wedded bride, or bridegroom, never forget that sadhu sanga, for the man or the woman, will keep our consciousness balanced. If the woman is more of a sadhu than the man, no harm, she will happily give her association, with humility, love and affection. If the man is more of a a sadhu than the wife, no harm, excellent.... it is certainly much more natural for the wife to be feeling subordinate to the male....BUT EITHER WAY......respect always the need to see one another as saintly persons, and search always for high minded guidance/association. respectfully submitted, Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------------ Dear sadaks, Pathivratha is a chance to get liberated from being born again. Only woman has this chance Not Men. Woman` s all karmas, gets dispelled by Pathi Vartha Dharma though her husband may be bad. Such woman need NOT do any pooja, sadhana etc says the script Pathivratha Dharma. In the line of scripts on Dharma, there is husband (Householder) Dharma, Guru Dharma, Pthiru Dharma, Prayachita Dharma, Manu neethi sastra Etc. In Sri Rama Pravabam it is said that Man` s sins does not affect his wife. But wife sins DOES affect husband. It is a gift God gives to be a woman. When used totally dedicated towards husband, her Jalma completes. That is why Pathivarthas I mentioned earlier had extrodinary powers. Why not men teach these Dharmas to their sisters before giving away in marriage? By nature woman body is designed with Karuna, Daya and ability to bear children Etc. Man is generally agressive, workholic, egoistic, Etc. But if his child shows eminence, man will say it is MY son. On contrary child is inefficient, he will abuse his wife, saying " Look at your son " . Mostly woman are supressed by men. Otherwise they have wonderful qualities. May be some woman are not. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ------------------------------ ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING There could be millions of questions..... The answer is one.......Know yourself..... You have all the answers...... Let us purify our true self and everything will be clear..... the body is for creation, full expression, celebration...... Sushil Jain ----------------------------- Hari Om A good question indeed! At the outset pls note whether the other party is Raam or Raavan , it doesn't make any difference to Sita or Mandodari- both were great ideal wives. Ideal wife is not dependent on there being Raam on the other side. Pativrata Dharma is not dependent upon husband's conduct- not at all. For that purpose no duty of a human being seeks a reciprocation from other side. Moderators can confidently amend the summary of responses to that effect. Once Sethji Jaidayalji Goenka said to Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (both were very close- Swamiji gave very high regard to Sethji- in fact Sethji was role model for Swamiji- both ultimately realised Parmatma in one life time )- If God wants to give me birth again then I would like to get born as a female. Because in that life form IT IS VERY EASY TO REALISE GOD !! There are no tedious Yogas etc to be performed. That Realisation / Emancipation comes to a female merely by looking God in her husband. As simple as that. You need to do nothing else. No fastings, no duties, no karmas, no rituals, no austerities. Nothing except " becoming of her husband by mind, speech and body " ! Pativrata Dharma is a special short cut given to a female. It is a special concession by God to a female. It is very easy, very respectable, very very beneficial, very powerful and very certain. If husband luckily is " hard/tough nut " then very very fast also. Simple rule is: Tumhi mere mandir, tumhi meri pooja , tumhi devata ho! Only Hubby is my temple, only He is my worship and only He is my God. There are great principles involved in this short cut for women. On the roots there are reasons why it is so easy or so successful. I don't see much difference between principles involved in " surrender " under BG 18:66 and a lady deciding to follow pativrata dharma . To be contd Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Swamiji focused more on vivek i.e. we are not this body and we belong to Paramatma. If your husband is good then you will be more happier by serving and pleasing him. That is duty of pativrita. But unfortunately, most people in this Kali yug are fallen. They try to use their position to exploit others. Remember at all times -- tvameya mata ca pita tvameva Accept Krishna/Ram as everything. Surrender unto Paramatma and do your duty. Consider Ram/Krishna as your husband, mother father etc. It is better to stand up and not let people take advantage of you. Best wishes for your marriage. Gaurav Mittal ------------------------------ In my earlier comment i had given the prescription of the advice given by Draupadi to Rukmini . Draupadi is one of the ideal Indian womanhood, Sati, along with Gandhari , Savitri , Damayanti , Maitreyi , Gargi , Arundhuti , Kunti, Sita, Shakuntala, Khana and many others. To my mind it is most essential to ensure the compatibility of the husband and wife . For that , proper match in the level of level of education , intellect , knowledge and wisdom , cultural , moral , etiquette , likes and dislikes , values and some such personal qualities are essential prerequisites . Matching family background , financial , educational , moral and ethical of the husband and wife's family , is also a requirement . In the marriage there should not be any sort of 'dowry' , directly or indirectly, all the expenses of the marriage shall have to be balanced . Girls family must not have to incur more expenses than the boy's family as that are of girl's family ; the groom may have to share fully or partially, similarly the bride also , if she is employed.Show off in the marriage to be restricted .Girl must not be denied the rights of her lawful inheritance rights from her parents since she has been married off . Girl shall never be blamed if the couple do not have a male child . Dowry , in any form post marriage must be stopped. The boy's family must accept the girl as the daughter of the boy's family , and vice verse for the boy , the boy must be accepted in the girl's family as their son. Absolute sense of equality , equanimity , unconditional love , compassion , giving , caring , sharing , laughter , joy ,smile , patience , perseverance , sense of happiness and bliss must be the ambient condition. With these existential ambiance , it is absolutely necessary for the girl to be " patibrata " and the boy must also be " patnibrata " in the same vein. As per social sysem , daughters are to live in the husband's home , and take husband's title , but that shall never mean the the girl is inferior to the boy and the reverse thing is not socially acceptable. Boy must try to stay with his parent's home if he works around and if there is not a extremely difficult problem in that.The boy has to face tremendous problem to balance the love and attention his his mother and his wife. Here both the wife and mother must have a large kind heart to appreciate with a sense of unbounded love. On the issue of 'patibrata' vis - a - vi , the girl must be a willing partner in husband's sexual desires and both must be thoroughly understanding and sharing of each others physical, mental / psychological needs. Self gratification in sex life is utterly wrong, instead unconditional love , caring , sharing , laughter and smile must be a hall mark in their relationship. No problem on earth is more important to sacrifice these essential qualities. The girl must take husband's father as her own father , mother as her own mother , brothers , sisters and other relatives as her own and so is a must for the boy. The girl's family must never meddle in the girl's husband or family unless it becomes a requirement in a negative situation , but never when things are going beautifully all right in the name of showing love to their daughter. Girl must take up unconditionally the household chores in the spirit of giving , even if she may be a working woman and the boy also share unconditionally and if he does not know , he must learn , along with the boy's mother and father , to the maximum extent possible. Girl must understand , her mother - in - law has become aged and she is young and if she can give some relief to her mother - in law , what is that a big deal ? She must very sacrificially look after the needs of the husband's parents and other relations . Having said this , the recipients here must not , I repeat must not demand , as a right to get all the services the girl desires to do voluntarily and care and share to the maximum extent they will be able to share with the sense of gratitude and love. Every good and sustaining relationship must be based on " giving unconditionally without any expectation of return " . This is very hard task but extremely fruitful proposition because the gains in such acts will be manifold which is beyond imagination. The girl after marriage may be incapacitated due to some debility , may not be take up her chores , may be be able to sexual gratification to her husband , they the boy must give the same level of love , take up the chores , duties and responsibilities of the girl and must not seek another woman for sexual gratification . similarly , if the boy loses the capacity for earning , becomes incapacitated due to illness or sexually , the girl must strive her maximum to honourably earn livelihood and must need seek sexual gratification outside. Regarding in law relations , there must be an unbounded love and equanimity. Unconditional love , caring , sharing without any expectations are the basic tenets of any relationship. God , whatever , definition , meaning and concepts , human beings have been able to creat in the God , 'unconditional love' is the only definition of " GOD " . Trillions of cell function in the spirit of sharing , unconditional love.Be 'gluon' to 'quark' , be in ' transcendental samadhi in the vision of ' dance of Shiva' rathindra prasad lahiri ----------------------------- KINDLY BE CONCISE! Also in future include if from scriptures / any references. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ----------------------------- Namastey, You are talking about chaste woman..Pativrata..but are you sure that pati himself is as chaste as woman is expected to be? Under guise of holy Gita, this appears to be a male oriented, male dominated conversation expecting woman to be pativrata and not pati to be chaste!! Ramesh. M. Jhalla ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, Chaste is the quality of a lady who is very rare. Pathivirtha means a lady who has taken her husband as Vartham (Yogam). A lady who does anything for her husband blindly, obeys her husband blindly, takes total care of her husband is known as Pathivartha. Such lady powers: 1) The Tulsi plant with we all know is a lady who was so. But her husband was bad. Even Sri Vishnu could not defeat that man. Sri Vishnu in disguise as her husband could remove her powers thereby killed that Rakshas. But the lady cursed Sri Vishnu to become stone as Sri Vishnu act was stone hearted. So Sri Vishnu became Salagram which is very auspisious. The lady became Tulsi by the boon of Vishnu. 2) Another lady could stop rotation of earth. 3) Another lady could make Thrimoorthy (Bharama, Vishnu and Shiva) a infants. 4) Another lady could resist any curse by great saint Konkanar. 5) Duryodhan mother cursed Sri Krishna that HIS decendants be destroyed- and it happened. 6) Lady Savitri could cheat Yama (Demi God of death) and bring back her husbands life. In Astrology it is said if a lady is chaste, her husband has long life. Normally such ladies to certain extent are there even today. They have the power to foresee things, to predict things that will happen, and also can prevent her husband from troubles. There is one such lady I closely know. B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Having taken male body, its little odd to advise on being " chaste wife " , but as sister or daughter about to be married I can tell few things that may help. We are human being first, so as human being let us be humble, loving and caring in general. Nice man or woman only can become chaste man or wife. If its a joint family scenario, then become(act like) daughter so others feel comfortable around you so at least one less complain. It should not be a burden to become " chaste wife " , rather natural. How? Think of marriage as relationship between man and wife to fulfil natural and God ordained instincts for healthy progeny, and therefore sacred. Having entered the relationship, one makes the other complete by offering everything one is given, body, mind and spirit. The most important element of orderly functioning of any society is being chaste. Remember, attractions on physical level fades away fso fast, and conflicts will dominate relationship affecting you two and families on both sides. One may not realize the cause being physical problems or boredom or blame game played by both. So it is better to have lower or down to earth expectations right from the beginning. You are there to give at all levels and in the process accept whatever comes your way(Gita). When this happens, just weather the storm and you will be glad you did. Physical aspect is but one aspect and there are so many beautiful aspects such as friendship, love, freedom and the mutual feeling " my spouse loves me the most " ! I live by one mantra that helps me all these years in married life, specially in adverse situations, if at all they arise. " You cannot get a better spouse than the spouse you have now " . It may seem very hard sometimes, specially in early years, when tempers run high, and anger takes over to think this mantra. At this time remind yourself again and again of the above mantra. This time shall pass also, just wait. As husbands we can always help wives to be chaste by being chaste ourselves. Communication is another important tool. Talk things over by overcoming " I am not going to talk to you now " feelings. Care for others in the family so the husband feels relieved as he may be duty bound to care for parents, unmarried siblings etc etc. Love them so much so that they will not be able to live without you. Lastly, remember whatever be the problem ultimately it is your Love for one another that will pull you out from the perceived dump! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt -------------------------- Lot of benefits. (1) You will be automatically following the rulings of the scriptures. (2) Your hubby will be one of the happiest men on the earth. (3) Your children will be proud of you and themselves, besides they will grow up like healthy kids. (4) The family will remain organised. (5) Biological benefits, such as no danger of AIDS etc. (6) A real sense of 'satisfaction' (7) You will be a source of 'satvik fragrance' in the society. (8) You will become a 'happiness generating unit' of the Supreme Lord. And, if by Lord Krishna's grace, your would-be husband is also of the similar coviction, then both of you will be adding a cementing factor in the prevailing disgusting environment of 'family disorganisation' The world needs such relationship between husband and wife, if we have to save the mankind from further degeneration into disorganised psychic individuals suffering divorce, barren living-in relationship, family-disoriented children etc. Besides, you will be a respected person in the eyes of all. Regards, Suresh C Sharma ----------------------------- Dear Shalini, Lovely question. Recently I had the opportunity to listen to the Bhagavatham and the story of Devahuthi and Kardama was being told. The speaker extolled the virtue of a dharmapatni- one who walks the path of dharma along with the husband. The wife ensures that the husband walks the path of dharma! Anyways when Kardama asks devahuthi what she wants for all the years of seva she has done for him without a single thought for herself, she is surprised that he even asked her such a question! She says that her very seva brought total fulfillment that she could not think of anything to ask for! The Bhagavatham went on to explain how when a woman " demands " to be " paid " for her services as a " wife " she ceases to be one and becomes a " vaisha " . Janaka tells Rama that Sita is his sahadharmachari. Before I got married, my grandma presented me with a book on wedding vows. It is interesting to note the use of the word sakhi for wife during the course of taking the vows- not " patni " - but beloved friend. In this beautiful path of friendship, trust is the cornerstone. And it is a two way street. The goal of the sacrament of marriage is for both to walk the spiritual path together. The " walking " of the path of life together makes the journey joyful. The focus is on the " divine " . Yes, part of making the commitment of marriage is " chastity " - of being in a monogamous relationship. This brings social structure much needed for healthy progeny- for the long term welfare of family and state. All the very best and blessings to you and your fiance. Meenakshi Srinivasan ----------------------------- I think this question is asked by Shalini Bhardvaja. Such quqlities of the girl can be evaluated by asking her questions when you chat with her. Mostly we can judge from the family she inherits. No body can predicted whether she is loyal or not. Sometimes some people try to match their horoscopes. Before marriage there are many meetings and at that time by asking questions we can judge the other party In this connections we have to rely on our luck and the religous ceremony done during the marriage. If you keep her with love, loyalty and compassion then there will not be any barrier in your life. My best wishes to you both If you want to read a book written by Utsala on Ideal marriage Please inquire into Inner Traditions publication written by a south India Girl who married with the President of Inner Traditions Thanks Truly yours Shankerprasad S Bhatt ------------------------- Dear shalini, As some one has advised, in India it is one who who has sex only with her husband. To my knowledge even a president of India who knowledge of our ancient Hindu philosophy was extraordinary and great had an affair with another lady but his wife just stopped sleeping in the same bed and also never talked to him for nearly 30 years. What i want to say is we are all humans and we can err. This chastity business is something which every religion including Christianity,Islam imposes on women only and i think it is UNFAIR. It is upto you as human to decide. captain Johann samuhanand -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Sister, In Kaliyuga, senses and indriyas are in a shithil state. weak state. So in todays time chaste wife is one who does not copulate any man other than her husband. Being obedient, serving your husband, treating any other man as father/brother, standing strong in odd-good bad times without breaking relation is enough. Try as many of these points as you can. Books on Naari dharma are available in market. blessing yours kalrav pande ----------------------- On being a chaste Wife My feeling on this issue, Draupadi appears to be most ideal as per our scriptures.The advise given by Draupadi to Rukmini, Sri Krishna's wife on this particular issue when asked for , is most apt. rathindra prasad lahiri ------------------------ Sita is an example Provided there is Ram on other side Dinesh Patel ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 28, 2010 Shree HariRam RamDue to significant back log of pending emails... ONLY RESPOND ifpreviously not already covered by other sadhaks.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram===================================================================NEW POSTING Hari OmSadhak Suresh has indeed stated a very commonly held belief:The Vedic purpose of marriage is to raise god conscious children.We often get variant and contradictory signals from Scriptures on the issue of marital life and on genders- males and females. Gita versus Vedas. Nishkaam versus Sakaam. (Desirous vs Non desirous) A question of 'male dominated society' also often arises in practical lives but not very often in Scriptures. Equality for both genders is hugely advocated in practical life but the subject is not much talked about in Scriptures. Birth of Son is considered more auspicious than birth of daughter...even in Scriptures. Both Ramayana and Gita subtly single out females as a category apart from males- Puranas and Smritis also. Rarely Scriptures talk about one being 'patni-vrata' , while they keep insisting for one being 'pativrata' !! Why? Marital life, children, family ...these are undoubtedly the biggest sources of sorrows, pains, tensions to a human. THEN.. How marrying is justified when the very goal of human life is to disconnect with inert? Why Vedas/Religion permit your first getting connected /entangled with world by marrying and then advice 'asakta anbhishwangam putra daar grihadishu' (BG 13:9)- Remain detached with wife, son and home ? Why Religion does not state right from beginning of human life- 'You are human. Your only goal now is to disconnect with prakruti ...there is no need for you to marry?' After all, it is an undeniable fact, that human life is exclusively given to you for liberation. In all other forms of life too the same marriage, procreation, family raising etc take place. What do you say Divine Sadhaks? I particularly request Sadhak Raj Panditji to reflect upon above ! What do you say Brothers Mike Keenor and Neetishji Dubey?Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B - Not all Ramayana's agree that Sita was banished. That is my first point. Second point, Rama told lakshman to protect his sister-in-law. On her word, he left to search for Rama. In the tulsiramayan, written at a time when the Hindu majority were under a moslem minority, hindu women needed to be protected from conversion and joining another religion. For unlike a hindu only a moslem can marry another moslem. Thus the point in the tulsi ramayan that sita was a helpless woman. Mind you I urge you to read about the warrior tradition of Jhansi rani. Do you really think that such a woman will easily allow herself to be fooled? Consider it politically. If you really think that she was weak she would not have done nothing. Only a very strong and confident and extremely brave woman would be willing to go into an enemy's territory and willing to die to protect her husband's name and honour. I say she was confident enough in her husband that as she told hanuman let my husband come and save me later on that in order to end this menace of killing Ravana that she allowed herself to be kidnapped by that Ravana. Final say is this. Dharma always wins against Adharma. She knew this and Ms mahalakshmi please also understand this. Have you ever been in an enemy country as a woman soldier? I again say this, she might have been a goddess but as sita she was also human and would have expected the side effects of work such as this. Unless you are a warrior woman who has been in enemy territory you will not understand the things that such women go through. I would ask you to gently consider this aspect of her life as well. I firmly believe that Sita did not get banished by Rama but that because there are simple minded men and women in the majority in any country, this banishment would have been an excuse to give privacy to Sita to have peace and quiet after a tumulteous life. All you have done is to look negatively at the ramayana. Relook at it with reverence and you will find a new pair of eyes and new meaning in the holy work. TMPrashanthBabu. --- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says... whatever we are seeing is His divine form (swaroop), whatever you are experiencing is His divine play (LILA), and whatever we are doing is His worship (Pujan)... Mahalaxmiji, you may consider this His Lila. "Nij Prabhumai dekhi jagat kehin san karhi birodh" - when everything is filled with divinity, then with whom should we have a conflict, an opposition? "Siya Raammai sab jag jaani; Karu pranaam jori jug paani." (Manas. Balakaand, Doha 8:2) "Recognizing the entire creation as full of Sita and Ram, I pay obeisance to them, with joined palms." Meera Das, Ram Ram -Dear Sadaks,Wife beating husband? What about a woman (In laws) beating the new bride.Woman beating woman or woman causing sufferings to another woman still worse.This subject only diverts our mind towards worldB.Sathyanarayan-----------------------A vedic wife should be pati-vrataa, meaning she will have no other man than herhusband in her heart and mind. No sex or fooling around with any other man thanthe husband. Keep husband happy. However, if the husband becomes adharmi or doessinful things, then the wife should not help him do bad things but should helphim give up bad things/habits.Same for the husband. He should be patni-vrata. He should not look down at hiswife.Both should not compete adversely, but cooperate, and take up theresponsibilites that each could do best and complement each other.Vedic marriage is for life time, only one. However, if here is no way out and ifthe married life is really miserable, then divorce is okay if it saves one's orboth's lives from misery.The Vedic purpose of marriage is to raise god conscious children.jai sri krishna!Suresh Vyas---Thanx ShalinijiActually it was from swami Ramsukhdasji MaharajHe told a storey of abhin bhavHave a wonderfull life you two OR shall I say U one.God bless ULovesRaja Gurdasani--------Dear Sadhak friendsThis is a very important question about the duties of the husband and wife.Atthe time of marriage seven principles are recited by both bride groom andbride.Besides such duties are written in old ancient Manu Smruti .But someprinciples are required to be changed in the modern times when the wholestructure of society is changed,Now wife is also working.In such circumstancesall members of the family ought to help herWhen the husband dies the responsibility comes to the mother.When the wife diesin old age then the old man has to consult his sons or daughters or both.Familyunity and family values are the main elements for our progress in life For suchgood qualities of life structures Indians flourish in all countries of the worldBut we have to see that our family structure and its values have beenmaintained. Be aware of bad influence of other cultures on us.TRruly yoursS S Bhatt M.Com---------What should a woman do to get justice in a male dominated Society like ours? Ifthe husband is ill-treating his wife...seeking pleasures with anotherwomen...torturing her and looking down upon her all the times...beating her fortrifle reasons...etc...Should she still consider her Pati as Parameshwar?...Gee Waman----------My dandavat pranams to all,My question is one which may cause some conflict, but I am determined tobring this issue to light.I recently read in one post, by a most studious indiviudal, that LordRamachandra never made any mistakes....He is (and was) Divine, and is notsubject to making mistakes. So, is Srimati Sita Devi, the consort of LordRama, any less divine? She is worshiped as the "other half" of the Godhead. Iask this question because from the narraations of the pastimes, it appears thatRama punished her again and again for having been touched by Ravana. Punishmentis due to making mistakes, is it not?. So, how is it that she was capable of making mistake (allowing Ravana toabduct her, by being misled out of the protective circle created by Laksmana)? I personally believe that her actions were of course, Lila....butsimultaneously, acting in the capacity of "appearing to be human", both Rama andSita made mistakes. I believe that Rama's mistake was to humiliate Sitaunnecessarily, at the point when He journedyed through His kingdom, incognito,to hear what the citizens were saying without their knowing it was their Kinglistening. One man was saying to his wife, who had stayed away over night,"Just because Rama lets Sita back, after being touched by another man, don'tthink that I will do the same". Rather than chastising this man, and upholdingthe dignity of his wife, who did not voluntarily leave the protection of herhusband, Rama took the side of a low class, abominable person, who had sodiscrimination that he would compare the mother of the universe and her beingabducted against her will to his own wife's nefarious activites.I say this was a mistake of Lord Rama's, and the entire world has sufferedfor it since, as without the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, andHis eternal consort, the condition of the earth planet and her inhabitants hassunk lower and lower into degradation. Therefore, no good has come from thedecision made by Rama, which caused Mother Sita to call her Mother, Bhumi, toswallow her back into the earth.I would like to know,Mahalakshmi dasi-Shree Hari Ram RamSushri Mahalakshmiji, Paramatma's divine play can be understood by beingParamatma alone. It is not in man's capability to find faults in Paramatma. Either consider Shri Rama a man, or give up your tendencies of finding faults,or else nothing will come in your hands. IN Mahabharat Bhagwaan Shri Krishnahas said, " For the establishment of Dharma and its protection, I manifest inall three worlds in many wombs and in those forms and settings conductaccordingly." You may find this in Swamiji's "Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke liye" pg211 and 212 .so be it, Vineet Sarvottam-------Thank you ! This little sister of yours could not have got a betterwedding gift. Each of my brothers and sisters were so right. ThankYou Vyasji and Raja Gurdasaniji in particular. Yesterday myself andmy fiance read the responses together. Oh ! They are so good. He hasagreed to be a "patnivrata" ! I said "Damn care" ! He assured methat there will be no need for me to take a course in Judo orKarate. I said "Damn care" !Pranaams from both of us.Shalini Bhardvaj-------------------------------Jai HanumanA concluding verse (often quoted by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ) :JYON TIYA PEEHAR RAHE, PEE KO BHULE NAAHI !AISE NAR JAG MAIN RAHE, HARI KO BHULE NAAHI !!Just As: A married girl even while being in the home of her parentsnever forgets her husbandSimilarly: A male even while being in this world should never forgetParamatma (Hari)Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala-----------------------------In India a lot of importance is given to "chaste wife" ( Pativrata).I want to know what are the standards of one being a Pativrata wife?How does she conduct herself? How does her conduct impact her home?Are there any visible results in her family? How does she getemancipated from this worldly ocean merely because she is Pativrata?I may hasten to add here that I am scheduled to get married insecond week of February this year. Hence an early advice from fromthis Satsanga forum will be appreciated. Sorry for trouble..Shalini Bhardvaj---------------------------Shree HariRam RamKINDLY SUGGEST ANYTHING THAT GITA SPECIFICALLY POINTS OUT IN THISREGARD. Please quote Gita/other scriptures, wherever possible andavoid personal opinions. Kindly be CONCISE. Ram Ram=============================================================NEW POSTINGPavitra is the word meant for pious feelings and acts both inner andoutworldly.With malign to none,one should love all and that is theway leading to God. So live life that way.Sharma---------------------------Dear would-be-Patni,Shubhashirwaad,For a successful married life, it is necessary that it is a couple ofPativrata and Patnivrat. After marriage the girl goes to her husbandshome i. e. husbands family, wherein she has to adjust with her in-laws and other family members. She is Patni, Bahu, Bhabhi and so on,and soon she is likely to be a mother, and each of her role hascertain duties and responsibilities. Whatever, she should not loseher self respect. If any member of the husbands family is harrassingher, she should deal with self-respect.In many families, it is a custom to say, we have performed`Kanyadaan` and now she no longer belongs to our family. Her fate isbound with the husbands family. That outlook need be changed. Herparents should always support her if she is harassed at her `Sasur`---Gee Waman---------------------------Dear Sadhaks,My contention is that notwithstanding the question of surrender anddevotion to husband, is this surrender not subject to the tenets ofthe laws of Dharma? Should a wife allow the husband to trample herpersonality and existence? I think this is not correct. I think thatthe duties and rights of both are completely inter-changeable andmust be full of giving and serving rather than taking or expectingany thing.This is a maturation of a relationship where when there are nodesires from each other. In such a relationship one rises in loverather than the cliched falling in love.Vispi Jokhi---------------------------Based on the issues addressed by Mahalaxmiji and domestic violence, how to youdeal with a situations like that? Can she still follow dharma? What should aperson do if she encounters a hubby like that? What are the alternativesavailable to her? Should she walk out of the home? What do scriptures state inthis respect?Audrey(RESPONSES TO THIS PORTION WILL BE POSTED AS A SEPARATE TOPIC. FROM GITA TALKMODERATORS)----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGShalinijiLot of thoughts have been expressed by experienced sadhak. They allare precious.I would say Have ABHINN BHAV (Sentiments of inseparableness,undivided, feeling of oneness). THAT U TWO BECOME ONE ENTITY HAVINGTWO SHAPES COMPLIMENTORY TO EACH OTHER.RAJA Gurdasani----------------------------Loving Divine,Pranam.I have nothing new to share except reiterating it in a different waywhat has been already said...Pati Parmeshwar OR Parmeshwar hi Pati?It is ultimately paremshwar who is praised and prayed in pati.Bhagwan said in BG, if you pray demi-god/goddesses, it reaches me!So called pati in worldly sense is just a very miniscule one - nodifferent then patni - mamaivaansho jive loke...(BG)If saint like Swami Ramsukhdasji has refrained himself from beingpraised and worshipped , whom are we to promote pati ?Meerabai was visiting a saint. He denied seeing a female.Meerabahi send a message that there is only one male in this entireuniverse, we all are female, who this new male has popped-up I dowant to see him... The saint came out of his hut feeling ashamedand bowed down to Meerabai.Just like patni has her duty to perform, pati equally has his - nodifference!Just like pati is an atom of God, patni is too - no difference!If patni can attain salvation worshiping parmeshwar in her pati(demi-god), pati can too if he sees pareshwar in patni (demi-goddess) - no difference!Patni has been treated and worshiped as goddess in tantrik sadhanas,nothing new!Even Ramkrishna Parmhamsa worshiped his wife Ma Sharda as divinemother. So break free of your notion of Pati Parmeshwar and attainsalvation just by seeing Parmeshwar in all...!humble regards.always at Thy Holy FeetManjula Patel----------------------------Please act according to your consciousness.S S Bhatt----------------------------Hari OmMahalaxmiji ! Sadhak Venu in fact grasped the concept advanced byScriptures precisely in his latest post. It is a topic on which alot of precedences are available. Still I briefly reply to some ofyour observations:You say:I do not have a problem, provided the man accepts his ownshortcomings, and does not pretend to be something he is not.I say:NO DUTY SEEKS RECIPROCATION FROM OTHER SIDE! YOUR DUTY IS OTHER'sRIGHT. This dharma is a "bhava" of wife. It has nothing to do withthe conduct of husband. Insistence upon hubby accepting hisshortcomings is inappropriate and egoistical. This is preciselywhere this dharma helps wife. God will never make hubby admit hisshortcomings !You sayThere is difference between seeing my husband as my ownpersonal "god", and recognizing him as the original, SupremePersonality of Godhead.I sayWHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? DOES "SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD" NOTEXIST IN HUBBY? IS THERE ANY SPACE DEVOID OF GOD ? Even a spaceequal to a tip of needle? One who can manifest from a pillar orfrom a statue made of stone, can He not manifest in husband? By theway God is always personal.You say:I personally would never suggest that any woman give up her ownsense of what she considers appropriate conduct.I say:THIS DHARMA CAN BE OBSERVED ONLY BY A "BHAVA/SENSE" OF WIFE THAT ITIS AN APPROPRIATE CONDUCT.You say:There is a point where men will demand things that are totallyadharmic in the nameof, "surrender".I say:Every sadhan requires you to become "egoless". If hubby wants you todo an "adharmic" conduct, do not obey him. Simple ! This dharma doesnot require you to become servant or slave! Not at all ! Even Goddoes not expect you to be that.You say:There will often be times, in most marriages, where the man does nothave perfect conduct.I say:Where is the need for a perfect conduct from other side? Who isperfect? Is wife perfect? Who has right to demand perfection? Ifhubby seeks that in wife, he is wrong. But how does it matter to her?You say:With the help of a chaste, loving wife, who has maturity, a man canbe helped to see his shortcomings without being humiliated. Thistakes maturity, strength, and power.I saySure ! You have written too little. A great wife brings back herhusband from hell or even from jaws of Yama. She is POWER inherself. She is 1000 times superior to males! She is SHAKTI.You say:Without this maturity,there is every possibility that the woman will allow herself to beabused.I say:The hubby, however cruel he may be, will "actually" become God for adevoted wife- ultimately-but as is the case with every other sadhanafter complete annihilation of her ego ! This is promise of Gitaand promise of all scriptures! Only the one who tries can knowthis ! But in practice at the beginning itself generally a womansurrenders and thus easily becomes egoless.You say:It is not appropriate or intelligent to say, "Oh, well, it's herkarma".I say:Every marriage is made in heavens based on your prior contractualobligations. Where is doubt on that? What else except "karma" ofeach can be responsible for what happens in this world ? Is God thatcruel that He will let you suffer on account of others' whims andfancies? Only the "doer" suffers! No one else on his/her behalf.You say:Better to say, if the woman is being sexually andphysically abused, even verbally if it is extreme, step away for awhile until he has some self control.I say:Why until he has some self control? It is an individual decision. Aseparate karma in itself. Another option is to leave him forever.Another is to lodge a police complaint. Who says no?You say:How is he serving the Lord if he is abusing the wife?I say:We are talking here about the wife. Even when hubby is good to wife,it is not necessary he is serving God.You say:This goes both ways in husband and wife relationship.....servicemood has to be mutual.I say:NO SERVICE MOOD CAN EVER BE MUTUAL. DUTY/SERVICE IS ALWAYSUNILATERAL. One's duty is always right of other. Duty and Right areopposite terms.In any case, Mahalaxmiji, a female has as many options of GodRealisation as a male has. It is her prerogative and choice as towhich she adopts. Every human being is independent in performinghis/her karmas.PranaamsJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGRewrittenMy dandavat pranams to all in this fourm.....In regard to Vyasaji's inquiry, "Is there harm in seeing husbandas God".....my response is many fold. Does husband want to be seenas God? If he truly has qualities of a sadhak, then he would deferfrom any open demand for such, giving example of humility, love,affection, and a balanced human being. At the same time, I believethat yes, truly, my husband, and any husband, in the heart desiresthat the wife should see him as HER god. I do not have a problem,provided the man accepts his own shortcomings, and does not pretendto be something he is not.But there is a vast difference between seeing my husband as myown personal "god", and recognizing him as the original, SupremePersonality of Godhead. In as much as, one who has a drop of theocean in his palm, and thinks, "I have the entire ocean" iscertainly in illusion.....but at the same time, he or she certainlydoes have the ocean in the palm of the hand!There is too much abuse toward women today. I have personallytaken a course in domestic violence training. Although I recognizethe necessity for a wife to be vigilant at all times of herhusband's needs, in regard to being considered her worshipful deity,I personally would never suggest that any woman give up her ownsense of what she considers appropriate conduct. There is a pointwhere men will demand things that are totally adharmic in the nameof, "surrender". A woman in this age of kali yuga must be fixed,within her own heart, in understanding the tenants of scripture, andthe process of elevating her heart, through sadhan, so that she canhelp her husband. There will often be times, in most marriages,where the man does not have perfect conduct. The idea of himbeing "God", with a capital "G" indicates that he can do no wrong.I think that to try to act on this understanding is a big mistake.But to accept him in the position of a "god" to the woman is adifferent matter. Even the "gods" err at times, the SrimadBhagavatam is full of descriptions where they became enamoured oftheir own power and beauty, committed offenses to their guru, andthen were cursed, or otherwise fell from their position.With the help of a chaste, loving wife, who has maturity, a mancan be helped to see his shortcomings without being humiliated.This takes maturity, strength, and power. Without this maturity,there is every possibility that the woman will allow herself to beabused.This is my answer to Vyasaji's question. I believe he iscoming from a position where he does not necessarily even imaginethe inappropriate conduct that males, coming forth fromdisfunctional and irreligious backgrounds, can inflict on theirwives. It is not appropriate or intelligent to say, "Oh, well, it'sher karma". Better to say, if the woman is being sexually andphysically abused, even verbally if it is extreme, step away for awhile until he has some self control. I believe that will give moreemphasis to the woman's role of being the better half of herhusband, she is trying to help him in serving the Lord, correct?How is he serving the Lord if he is abusing the wife? The Lordsays, "One who says he is my devotee is not my devotee, but one whosays he is the devotee of my devote is actually my bhakta". Thisgoes both ways in husband and wife relationship.....service mood hasto be mutual.I believe that to encourage a woman to have a bona fide guru, whoguides her to bhakti, linking with the Lord through devotion, willallow her to discern how to treat everyone with humility and grace,including her husband In the tenth canto of Srimad bhagavatm,there were several wives of smarta brahmans, who against theirhusbands desires, took food stuffs to Krsna and Balaram. Thehusbands were too absorbed in their rituals to pay any attention tothe boys.In this pastime, it is clearly explained that the wives were so dearto the Lord, due to their willingness to accept His position, setaside their dharmic relations, and serve Him regardless of anyexternal considerations.respectfully,Mahalaksmi Dasi---------------------------Hari OmBy the way , however he may be,Is hubby not always in mind? Is he not a "real" Teacher? Is he notProtector? Is he not Creator? Is he not Preserver? Is he notController? Does he not carry the same burden which wife does? LikeGod, does he not annihilate/destroy ego? Does he not prevailultimately? Does he not love ? Does anybody want to lose him? Whatthen is the difference between him and Him ? Does God not givepains? Does God not rule? Does God not punish? Does God not instilfear? Is God not authoritative? Does God not wash our eyes withtears till they are clean enough to behold the reality?What do you say dear Sadhaks?Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------Dear SadhakomVyasji asked a final question, in his latest response, on 'seeingGod in and treating husband as God'. This posting has taken manyturns and apparently is reaching this end - 'husband as God'. Thisseems to be a logical for the discussion. When you treat 'husband'or any body else for that matter as God, the standards mentionedfor 'pativrata', plus many more could be there, are a automatic fallout of such belief. Spiritual-minded humans goal is to reach God andthere is no best way to treat the closest person with you as 'God',in this case 'Pati' treating 'Patni' or Patni treating Pati as God.Its the attitude, not the standards that make the way to Goal. BothPati and Patni have equal chance to win the game in this field ofspirituality. If my fellow saadhkom review the entire set ofresponses on this topic, you would see a connection 'treat him orher as God' is the basis for the responses.RegardsVenu Komanduri---------------------------PRIOR POSTINGThanks and regards to Sashikalaji, diamonds of advice from you toladies. Being a lady, you experienced and poured them out of lifeand heart. Easy to understand and are logical too. What youmentioned here is not as a tattvavaada, but as a tattvadarsibhi!!Perhaps points 7 and 11 need some more details on your direction, oryour advice can be misunderstood. Remember your advice is universaland applicable to all daughter-in-laws.I would tend to add for point 7 is 'do not reply, but understand herbefore making your point', for 11 is 'listen and share yourappreciation on good and concerns on bad'. 'Ignoring' can causedifficulties later. There has to be balance in relationship.RegardsVenu Komanduri--------------------------------Pativrata means to be faithful to your husband. If she conductsherself like this then her home will be like heaven. Her family willprosper and by doing her duty she will be adding good karmas whichwill definitely lead her to the right path and ultimately toemancipation.Hari Shanker Deo----------------Shree Hari, Ram RamSUMMARY SADHAK RESPONSES:1. what are the standards of one being a Pativrata wife?A Pativrata wife is one who -- Accepts "husband" as he is, and serves him through words, deedsand thoughts i.e. follows Patni Dharma (wife's duties) rigorously.- Has implicit faith in husband. A rare quality! e.g. Tulsi- Does not seek any reciprocation from her husband- Gives unconditionally, without expectation in return- Simply by seeing Bhagwaan in her husband, can attain realization.Nothing else is needed- Is focused on her and her duty alone and becomes the shadow of herhusband.- Draupadi is ideal wife - read Draupadi's advice to Rukmini.- Sita ideal, provided there is Ram on other side- Pativrata Dharma is not dependent upon husband's conduct- Pativrata Dharma is not "servanthood" at all. It is a "bhava"- Pativrata Dharma is a special short cut given to women, guaranteedmethod for liberation/God Realization- It is VERY VERY easy in Kaliyuga to observe this Dharma. Almostall women can observe this dharma. Key is relinquishing "Ego"- "Both the Pati (in vrata) with wife" is the complete seNse inPATIVRATA. With Rama-Sita was a Pativrata.- Per Vyas - Dharma is sadachar (virtuous, righteous, moral conductthat should be followed), but it is practically impossible to stickto in todays life.- Chastity comes from your inner soul.2.How does she conduct herself?- do duty and proactively extend even more, obey all in husband'sfamily, do not talk back, don't react, listen, observe and stayquiet, do not add fuel to fire ...They know more about each otherthan you do. Take care of younger children and sister-in-law.- she has strength of a savitri to follow him to naraka and bringhim back, and also be as protective as durga when it comes to duty.- SATHYAM,DHARMAM,SHANTHI AND AHIMSA essential qualities for awoman. (Gita Chapter 13)- She acts according to her husband's desire, obediently and mostnaturally.- act according to your consciousness.- Bhavas towards husband come comparitively effortless.- THIS DHARMA CAN BE OBSERVED ONLY BY A "BHAVA/SENSE" OF WIFE- tolerance and toleration are the foundation of an indian marriage- Mostly listen to your heart and you won't go wrong.- Forgive others for their mistakes. This will strengthen therelationship.- Respect and love the new family- RESPECT AND LOVE ELDERS IN THE NEW FAMILY- Beg Krushna to bless us with divinely qualities andlead a contented life3.How does her conduct impact her home?- No ego clashes.- benefits in personal, family, societal, all of mankind. followingBhagwaan's ordinance, physical well-being, harmony, peace, spreadingfragrant happiness to all.- Always Peace. Respect! Purity! Power! She is "Grihalaxmi" ! Sheis "Annapurna" (Feeder) !! She is "Shakti".- Obedient children- Live a "Pavitra" life - pious feelings and acts both inner andoutworldly with being malign to none. One should love all and thatis the way leading to God.4.How does she get emancipated from this worldly ocean merelybecause she is Pativrata?- surrendering to husband far more natural than surrendering to God,our personal experiences have proved that.- all karmas, gets dispelled though her husband may be bad- it is a chance for liberation from rebirth that only woman have.- complete surrender, where wife has no ego, no desire, no wishes ofher own at all.- She gets Realisation. She gets emancipation. She gets rewarded byParamatma.- A great wife is Shakti herself- principles of surrender leading to "egoless", "desireless"and "mamataless" (Gita 2:71)- If we neglect to cultivate our love and affection for God, can wetruly find satisfaction?- Prayer for blessings to walk alongside with husband, led andguided by God and with presence of Guru at all times.- Pativrata i.e. Faithful conduct will lead to good karmas,righteous path, prosperous family, heaven on earth and ultimatelyemancipation.- ABHINN BHAV (Sentiments of inseparableness, undivided, feeling ofoneness). THAT U TWO BECOME ONE ENTITY HAVING TWO SHAPESCOMPLIMENTORY TO EACH OTHER.- Bottom like is just like a married woman does not forget herhusband, similarly never forget Paramatama.Do you think you are ready to be a pativrita ?- Just accept firmly -Only God is mine, and I am God's. This wholeworld is God's, so serve all as God's per Gita's without expectinganything.- Sri Krishna is foremost, and knowing that our relationship withHim will not end, there is a deeper confidence that no one can takeaway.- It is unwillingness to observe "egolessness" or drop the ego thatprevents one from following this dharma.- Surrender unto Paramatma and do your duty.- Accept Bhagwaan as everything (all relations)- Do not give up your devotion to God- Know yourself! All answers lie within!- Key is to being satisfied within one's own Self (where SupremeLord resides).- NO DUTY SEEKS RECIPROCATION FROM OTHER SIDE! YOUR DUTY IS OTHER'sRIGHT. This dharma is a "bhava" of wife.IS THERE REFERENCE IN GITA?- Believe, there is no direct reference in Gitaji, but general, inGita (16-24). Ramcharit Manas, there is a specific reference on thissubject. Fortitude, piety, a friend and a wife are four tests intimes of adversity. She is convinced in her heart of hearts that shecannot even dream in the world of a man other than her husband.OTHER -- option of pativrata dharma is a preferable one though not acompulsion.- Even in earlier days many wives did not qualify - Sita, Draupadi- Today's time, a chaste wife is one who maintains fidelity, staystogether through good and bad times, and views other men as eitherbrother or father.- absolutely necessary girl - patibrata and boy - patnibrata- Dharmapatni- one who walks the path of dharma along with thehusband. She ensures that the husband walks the path of dharma!- Marriages are destiny for the couple - only factor functioningis "prior contractual obligations".- Marriage Vows- not "patni"- but beloved friend. Friendship, trustis the cornerstone. A two way street.. to walk the spiritual path.- Compatibility, man-woman and their families - very important- NO Dowry; No Extravagant Weddings or flaunting of Wealth- Be humble, loving and caring- Become a daughter to the new family- also learn from your mum-in-law because she knows your husband thebest.- It should not be a burden to become "chaste wife", rather natural- Marriage is Sacred, offering everything one is given - body, mindand spirit- love, loyalty and compassion - Key to good married life- "chastity"- monogamous relationship, brings social structure muchneeded for healthy progeny.- Is Chastity a one-sided thing? Unfair?- are you sure that pati himself is as chaste as woman is expectedto be? This appears male-oriented views.- Only the "doer" suffers! No one else on his/her behalf.- Acceptance by both families, without interference- Sacred Mantra - "You cannot get a better spouse than the spouseyou have now".- Communication - Key- Love so much such that one cannot live without the love. Loveconquers all!- the body is for creation, full expression, celebration- Swamiji's focus was more vivek, how to quickly attain Salvation!- Read Naari dharma (duties of a woman)- why such a hard line for women? The scriptures say, what is mostprecious and worthy of honor has to be safe guarded accordingly withutmost care and love.- NO SERVICE MOOD CAN EVER BE MUTUAL. DUTY/SERVICE IS ALWAYSUNILATERAL.- Many good Gita Press books for Nari dharma- standards are written mostly by male community and obviously arebiased- A husband that expects Pativrata must ensure that he is deservinghusband to Pativrata.- there is no best way to treat the closest person with youas 'God'. Simply speaking treat Him or Her as God.- many similarities between Hubby and God !- whom are we to promote pati? both can attain salvation worshipingparmeshwar in each other. break free of the notion of PatiParmeshwar and attain salvation just by seeing Parmeshwar in all...!- duties and rights of both are completely inter-changeable and mustbe full of giving and serving rather than taking or expecting anything.- maturation of a relationship where when there are no desires fromeach other. In such a relationship one rises in love.- In each of the married woman's roles there are certain duties andresponsibilities. she should not lose her self respect and deal withsituations with self-respect. If harassed, her parents must alwayssupport her.Ram Ram------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGJai HanumanAdvices which I gave to my daughters before marriage –1. Never praise your parents ( us )before your in laws. We know howto command respect and honor. We don't need you for that. If youpraise us , then some day you may have to hear criticism also.2. Take particular care of the sisters of your husband. " JAAI SORI,MAAI SORI" ( If daughter is happy, mother is happy) !3. Don't react to any one's conduct vis a vis other. They might behaving their own reasons, old issues supporting the conduct.4. Give your views if there is need. Do not insist. Never talk withyour in laws reg your husband. They know him better than you !5. Never talk regarding your in laws with your husband ! He knowsthem better than you.6. Don't bother if they talk with your husband regarding you. Theyare entitled to do that. He is their son/ brother !7. Do whatever mother in law tells you. Don't reply back , even ifshe is bit harsh/unreasonable! It takes two to fight.8. Never talk leave aside complain about any one to your husband.A lot of things loose significance of their own. Talking about themonly prevents their natural death.9. You simply do your duty. Serve your in laws more than you servedus. There is no ego of yours vis a vis them. Because you are agentof your husband before them. Serve them not as "your" Mother/Father/Sister in law . Serve because they are mother/father/sisterof "your" husband. Act not in your independent capacity vis a visthem, but as agent of your husband. Then nothing will hurt you.Because you have not established any relationship of your own. Allrelationships are due to relationship of your husband. ( Once youare an agent, ego reduces drastically)10. Respect everyone, but be "devoted" to only your husband.11. If your husband talks about any of his relations, bad or good,listen and ignore. Say – you are the best judge. Never add fuel tothe fire. If according to you he is wrong, say so with reasons.12. Take particular care of children in your sasuraal. Spend moneyon them. Love them really.13. Never tell a lie to any one particularly to your husband- comewhat may ! If you don't want to say – better boldly say " I don'twant to comment" than " I don't know" , if you really know. Eitherkeep mum or speak truth as a law. Truth prevails.14. Never compare before any one your parents' house and your newhome.15. Be pro active in household work. Become happy if you arerequired to do some more work on some day. Never hesitate in workingmore. The body doesn't depreciate if you work more. It becomesstronger. Feel happy if you have lightened someone else" workload. " I will work, you take rest" – this should be the goal.16. SELF RESPECT means respect of self by self not respect of selfby others. Doing one's duty diligently is real self respect.Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala----------------------------Hari OmA genuine Q arises ! Whether in fact this "dharma" is the easiestfor a lady to follow? Well ! Answer is that nature/circumstancesdefinitely help.Consider the followings:JUST AS1 When a girl leaves her parents' home upon her marriage, she neverdemands foodgrains, tea, sugar, bread, butter etc from her parents.She knows that her husband, that is taking her to his house willarrange for her meals also. There is no doubt in her mind.She "naturally" does not worry.SIMILARLY:This worrilessness has also to be attribute of any sadhak whosurrenders under BG 18:66 ! One who surrenders should not worry howhe will be taken care of by the God ! But in that surrender, doworries cease easily ? No !Point proved: Surrender by wife is more natural/spontaneous/worriless than the surrender under 18:66 ! Nature helps wife !JUST AS2 A wife NEVER forgets her husband- come what may ! Naturally ! Evenwhen she goes to her parents' home, but after sometime she says toher mother - "I must go now. He must be experiencing difficultieswithout home food".SIMILARLYA devotee (one who accepts I am of the God, only God is mine) issupposed to never forget God. But is it that easy ? No ! Ourexperience proves that !Point proved : It is easier and natural for a lady to observepativrata dharma.3 A newly wed lady "surrenders" everything- lock , stock and barrel.Her home, her parents, her body, her "gotra", her caste (surname),her dressing, her relations, her conduct, her existing living style,her friends, everything in favour of her new home. Nothing is old.Some hubbies affectionately change her name also. Nothing me,everything you. SHE ACTUALLY DOES IT and LIVES WITH IT !Similarly : A devotee is required to do that when he "surrenders" toGod. His conduct has to change. Nothing me, everything God.Which one is easier?Why aforesaid difference of easyness? Fact is that there are 2things:1 Acceptance by self ( This a devotee "does" by pondering over - Iam of God. This is over, presumably. In case of wife it is automaticand natural- I am married. A pativrata only has to slightly changeit- My God is my husband. This is pending and under debate !2 Implementation of decision, acceptance , strengthening of the same.Now this is difficult for a devotee. Quite natural and easy for awife ( Refer aforesaid 3 examples drawn from our direct experiences.I can give dozens of such examples) ! Implementation underacceptance!What we are debating here is which course is easy. Both inacceptance and implementation , wife stands superior and faster thanother devotee. Now she has option. " I am of God ( husband is notGod. I have duties towards him) " or "My husband is God" !In both the cases she has to do same- Chop wood, carry water ! Inboth the cases "egolessness" is mandatory !! Then why not considerhubby as God? Does God not exist in him? Is it not a certifiedindependent method of God Realisation? Any shame in that? Any loss ?Any impropriety? Any thing wrong?What do you say, Dear Sadhaks?Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B---------------------------When the husband expects that his wife should be Pativrata, heshould ensure that he is deserving husband to Pativrata, that he is a`Patnivrat`..If the husband is neglecting the wife or illtreatingher, she should just neglect him and, if it comes to that , leave himand look after her children.The one sided Pativrata concept is the outcome of male dominatedsociety.Gee Waman-------------------------------Hello Shalini,Chastity comes from your inner soul. I remember once when anauch girl wanted to sing for swami vivekananda at a King's courtand he refused because he was a Sannyasi. She became upset with himand sang a song of Lord Krishna. Her song brought him out and madehim regret his refusal.Chastity is in the mind and soul, not on how one dresses or behaves.If your mind and body and soul belong to your husband, then nomatter what anyone says your only guide should be to please yourhusband. And only when he is dharmic. You should have the strengthof a savitri to follow him to naraka and bring him back, and also beas protective as durga when it comes to duty. But mostly listen toyour heart and you won't go wrong. The little voice in your headshould be your best guide.Your habits and Character would have been formed from birth byyour household. Do not give then up but also learn from your mum-in-law because she knows your husband the best. And get protection fromyour father-in-law if he is a fair man when it comes to keeping yourmum-in-law from bullying you.One final suggestion for all these are but suggestions, Iremember once my mother's mother-in-law had made 3 chutneys forthree sons when they were going to work. My mother commented one isenough and that she is spoiling her children. (Just newly married),A decade later when my mother had two sons, me and my youngerbrother, my father came home to find that she (my mother) had madeChapati for me and Puri for my brother). Case in point.Hope this helps some.Prashanth---------------------------Hari Om.The only way to explain the code and conduct of an indian woman isMA SITA.Even today we have live telecast of Ramayana is to make usfollow the foot steps of Sita.THe tolerance and toleration are the foundation of an indianmarriage.We should read Sundara Gandam now and then to develop suchdivinely qualities.Then comes the 13th chapter of Gita---It teaches what qualitiesa man who follows krushna should have.He clearly explains the imporance of SATHYAM,DHARMAM,SHANTHI ANDAHIMSA.I THINK THAT EVERYWOMAN born as an indian should possess thesequalities.The next step is to follow the Bhagavadham where there are vitalpoints that we have to follow.we should beg Krushna to bless us with such divinely qualities andlead a contented life.Every woman should keep reading such divinely writings to freeourselves from lust,greed and filth.We should be able to forgive others for their mistakes. This willstrenthen our relationship.In india Marraige is a commitment and resposibility.It is a bondage for the growth of a cultured family.Its not possible to just advice as experience of each woman willvary.But we should respect and love the new family with whom our bondageis initiated.The first step is RESPECT AND LOVE ELDERS IN THE NEW FAMILY.With regards,Ushasridhar.(we should not just advice but practice it beforeadvising)(Hope this would be published Krushna!!!!!)---------------------------My dandavat pranams to all in this forum,With deepest respect, and appreciation, I would like to acceptthat Vyasaji's concerns that in this age, a wife's service to herhusband should be considered extremely urgent, high level of serviceto the Lord. (I pray my wording is correct, please advise if I havephrased incorrectly)I am asking for clarification, please. You mentioned that thistype of dharma is covered in Krsna's instructions in the BhagavadGita. I know of only two verses, which I personally do not see asreferring to service to the husband as being bhakti, althoughservice to a Vaisnava (one who is absorbed in devotion himself) isbhakti, regardless if that person is husband or not. So, service tohusband could be bhakti if the man is following a mood of service toGod, otherwise if he is not devoted to the Lord? (I will answer myown question....if the wife is devoted enough, through herassociation and prayer, it is possible, though not always happening,that the man may be affected.......sometimes the women can end updead in the attempt, if he is a person who is prone to loosingcontrol of his emotions.)The two verses I am familiar with in Gita are first: chapter 1verse 40,adharmabhibhavat krsna, pradusyanti kula-striyahstrisu dustasu varsneya, jayate varna-sankarah"When irreligion is prominent in the family, O Krsna, the women ofthe family become polluted, and from the degradation of womenhood, Odescendant of Vrsni, comes unwanted progeny."In the explanation of this verse, by Srila A.C.BhaktivedantaSwami, it is said, "The varnasrama religions's principles were sodesigned that the good population would prevail in society for thegeneral spiritual progress of state and community. Such populationdepends on the chastity and faithfulness of its womanhood." alsomentioned, "On the failure of such varnasrama-dharma, naturally thewomen become free to act and mix with men, and thus adultery isindulged in at the risk of unwanted population. Irresponsible menalso provoke adultery in society, and thus unwanted children floodthe human race at the risk of war and pestilence."These words of my guru are certainly very pertinent to today'ssociety.....there is always consideration of war by some of theleaders just to keep down the animalistic population, many of whom,due to their misfortune, were not wanted by their father, or theirmothers, or both. This is a heart breaking situation, there aremany perhaps reading this forum today who may be pained at the wordsof Gita, as they may never have known their father, or their birthmother. My heart cries for those in this condition, and I pray youunderstand that I am not writing this to cause any grief. Pleaseforgive me, if my words are causing any pain.But my point in bringing out these verses, apart fromappreciating that service to the husband and family is essential forsociety to be functioning nicely, is that this verse does notemphasise bhakti, devotion to the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna, or Rama,or however an individual would refer to him as.The other verse I(I mentioned two verses from Gita that I amfamiliar with) that mentions women, is in the tenth chapter, verse34, where the Lord says, "Among women I am fame, fortune, finespeech, memory, intelligence, steadfastness and patience."Certainly, all these qualities enhance a marriage, and a women whopossesses them, but they do not in and of themselves constitutedevotion to God.Please kindly give your understanding, from Gita, wheredevotion to the husband is considered topmost. The last chaptergives one verse, which is often quoted, perhaps misquoted, toemphasize (in temple situations) that husbands should NOT be givenpriority..18.65....."man-mana bhava mad-bhakto, mad-yaji mam namaskuru,mam evaisyasi satyam te, pratijane priyo 'si me"Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer yourhomage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promiseyou this because you are My very dear friend."....as well 18:66......sarva-dharmam parityajya, mam ekam saranam vraja,aham tvam sarva-papebhyo, moksasisyami ma sucah....."Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. Ishall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear."next verse is also very pertinent, (18:67)idam te natapaskaya, nabhaktaya kadacana,na casusrusave vacyam, na ca mam yo 'bhyasuyati........."This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who arenot austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor toone who is envious of Me."So, for a women to stay with one man is certainly anausterity. The newness of it wears off, the mood of service has tobe predominant, and thus the heart will become purified, when themotive is to serve, and not to be the enjoyer.....but this is notthe only venue for women to serve in this day and age.Respectfully submitted, Mahalaksmi Dasi------------------------------Hari OmWith due and really heartfelt respect to all my Sadhak Brethren, Imust state that from what I understood so far from thedeliberations, there are many wrong statements from many sadhaksthis time on this question. I give a correction list which ofcourse is open for deliberation .1 Pativrata Dharma is not "servanthood" at all. It is a "bhava"(inner expression duly certified by dozens and dozens of HolyScriptures - almost every Scripture and Every Saint- of SanatanDharma. Servants are not called "Devis" / "mothers"/"Satis" /Shaktis and are not remembered respected for aeons/ages !!. They areultimate powers / masters and never servants.2 It is VERY VERY easy in Kaliyuga to observe this Dharmathan "practically impossible" ! I would agree if someone suggestedto me that for a female any other dharma(other than pativratadharma) in Kaliyuga was VERY VERY difficult, almost impossible. Anyother Dharma - I repeat - if she is married.3 There is no need of a Raam on other side to bring out a Sita froma female. Absolutely no need. Every female irrespective of how herhubby is can conveniently observe this dharma.4 It is a wrong statement to suggest that there is no reference ofthis Dharma of in Holy Gita. All Dharmas are covered in merely 700verse long Holy Gita. It is another matter that we do not understandthe "bhaavas" of Gita.5 One's duty is always right of another ! Hence between theduties/rights of husband and wife , there will be always dis-similarity. There will always be clashes of ego. Winner is the onewho relinquishes ego. It is not that in any other sadhanrelinquishment of ego is not mandatory. FACT IS THAT IN ALL KNOWNSADHANS "Egolessness" is mandatory.6 Among the alternatives , even if they are in dozens, for a femalethe observance of "Pativrata Dharma" is the easiest, fastest, best,the most adored and the most respected . Kaliyuga or for thatpurpose no other Yuga can ever be an obstacle to the same. On thecontrary, the Kaliyuga is the most ideal yuga for this "dharma" forfemale and of course the easiest.7 What can be a talk of similarilty between two life forms where oneis decidedly 1000 times superior to another? Non sense ! Females arealways superior to males. Unfortunately most of them do notknow/accept/believe that.8 Not seeking reciprocation is not unique to this sadhana alone , itis mandatory for every sadhana prescribed by every religion.9 Scriptures like Gita are meant certainly for all genders!True ! Then how on earth some one can claim that a particulardharma is prescribed by males ? Isn't that a height of non sense?Unbelievable !!10. If Puranas, Vedas, Scriptures, Smritis, Holy texts like Gita orRamayana etc are respected - they are respected because they holdtrue in all ages, all yugas, including present Kali Yuga.11. Gita is meant for humanity at large for all castes, creeds,colours etc Hence it is not surprising that all dharmas/disciplinesare covered by it but not specifically named.12. Real reason behind resistance to this Dharma or argument beyondlogic in connection therewith - according to my personal humble view-is not Kaliyuga or present times, but stupidity and incapacity /unwillingness to observe "egolessness" . The supporters thereforelogically will not be able to accomplish any "saadhan"as "egolessness" is mandatory everywhere !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--Shree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Shalini, thanks for a good question!On this topic, believe, there is no direct reference in Gitaji butin general, there is a related verse Gita (16-24):tasmac chastram pramanam tekaryakarya-vyavasthitaujnatva shastra-vidhanoktamkarma kartum iharhasi"Therefore, let the scriptures be your authority in determining whatought to be done and what ought not to be done. Knowing this, youshould act only on accordance with the sanction of scripture".In Ramcharit Manas, there is a specific reference on this subject.The "ideal of Women" comes in Aranyna Kandh (5/1-6), when Lord Rama,Sitaji and Laxmanji visited Atri Rishi as they were leavingChiterkut. Atri Rishi's wife Ansuiyaji gives the instructions toSitaji:ansuiya ke pda gahi Sita, mili bahorri susila binita.risipatni mana sukha adhikai, asisa dei nikata baithai (1)dibya basana bhusana pahirae, je nita nutana amala suhae.kaha risibadhu sarasa mridu bani, NARI-DHARMA kachu byaja bakhani (2)matu pita bharta hitkari, mitaprada saba sunu rajakumari.amita dani bharta bayadehi, adhama so nari jo seva na tehi (3)dhiraja dharma mitra aru nari, apad kala parikhahi cari.brddha rogabass jaRa dhanahina, amaha badhira krodhi ati dina (4)aisehu pati kara kie apamana, nari pava jamapura dukha nana.ekai dharma eka brata nama, kaya-bacana mana pada prema (5)Jaga PATIBRATA cari bidhi ahahi, badapurna samta saba kahahi.uttama ke asa base mana mahi, sapanehu ana purusa jag nahi (6)Sunu sita tava nsama sumiri nari patibrata karahitohi pranapriya rama kahiu katha samsar hita (doha 5-B)Meaning:Then Sita, who was so good natured and modest, met Anusya andclasped her feet. The seer's wife felt extremely pleased at heart;she blessed her and seated her by her side. The she arrayed Sitajiin heavenly robes and ornaments which remained ever new, clean andcharming. In affectionate and mild tones the holy woman then beganthe discourse on wifely virtues, making Her an occasion for suchdiscourse" Listen, O' Princess: a mother, father and brother are allkind to us; but they bestow only limited joy. A husband, however,bestows unlimited joy (in the shape of blessedness), O Videha's(Janaka, who had lost the consciousness of the body) daughter; vileis the woman who refuses to serve him. Fortitude, piety, a friendand a wife - these four are put to the test only in times ofadversity. A woman who treats her husband with disrespect - eventhough he is old, sick, dull-headed, indigent, blind, deaf, wrathfulor most wretched - shall suffer various torments in hell (the abodeof Yama). Devotion of body, speech and mind to her husband's feet isthe only duty, sacred vow and penance of a woman. Thee are fourtypes of faithful wives in this world: so declares the Vedas, thePuranas and all the saints. A woman of best type is convinced in herheart of hearts that she cannot even dream in the world of a manother than her husband.O' Sita, women will maintain their vow of fidelity to their husbandby invoking your very name, Sri Rama being dear to you as your ownlife. It is for the good of the world that I have spoken to you onthe subject."Now the question might arise, why such a hard line for women? Thescriptures say, what is most precious and worthy of honor has to besafe guarded accordingly with utmost care and love. I am assumingthat a standard must be there for men for their charter of duties|| Ram Ram ||Humble regards,Madan Kaura-------------------------------Hari OmLet us straight away go to the fundamentals. All Scriptures singglories of Pativrata Dharma. A wife at the time of marriage itselfby nature and the very circumstances is ideally placed for therole, hence it is very easy for her to get going. Next easier taskis a male's "Service to his parents" . Both are INDEPENDENTGUARANTEED METHODS OF LIBERATION/GOD REALISATION - if done as onedoes his duties (dharma)- as per all Scriptures and particularly asper Holy Gita principles . But in case of male , his householdduties extend to a much higher scale and hence it becomes ratherdifficult and more effortful to concentrate exclisively on hisparents. But for a female it is comparitively effortless and quiteeasy to devote exclusively her "bhavas" (inner expressions) towardsher husband.In both the cases , BG 7:19 (2nd part- Vasudev Sarvam) read with BG4:11 ( first part "ye yatha maam prapyadante taanstathevabhajamyaham") and Principles of surrender BG 18:66 are basic verses.In case of female, additionally BG 2:71 status ofbeing "egoless", "desireless" and "mamataless" is achieved faster.(There may be many more verses of BG supporting her, but I havepicked these verses to explain her conduct.I will add more verses ifthey occur to me. I shall be very happy if sadhaks discussadditional supporting verses too of BG. I am sure there will be manymore. In fact all Gita readers can attempt this really goodexercise )BG 7: 19 principle of "all this is God"- Vasudev Sarvam , allowswife to see God in her husband. When all is God then there isdefinitely God in husband also. Hence wife determines/accepts herhusband as God however or whatever he is- AS IT IS !BG 4:11 says- However, the way devotees worship Me, so do Irespond/approach them.Since wife sees her God in her husband, hence God manifests to heron account of her worship to her husband only.Then comes the principles of surrender under 18:66. Here the wifehas only one dharma - the service/shelter of her husband. Herhusband is God for her and hence her surrender to husband issurrender to God. There is no need for her then to observe any otherdivine karmas like fasting, meditation, holy dips, worships,charities etc etc. Only one rule, one task, one duty ! Here thenatural circumstances additionally help wife. The principles comevery very handy/ naturally to her. Also come very handy/naturally toher the requirements of getting peace/liberation under BG 2:71 !Hence she gets liberated in only one life time easily.I may add here that in my view it( Pativrata dharma) is only anoption, a really powerful option, not a compulsion for a female. Shemay like Mira Bai decide to see God in Krishna and not link herdevotion to her husband exclusively. But then there may be adifference between "devotion" and "duties". There too she has toconsider husband as God's representative and do same "chop wood andcarry water" but with a different "bhava" .. Here she sees husbandas God and seeks God in husband only. Hence the option of pativratadharma is a preferable one though not a compulsion. There is not aremotest clash here.In next posting we shall discuss, how quite naturally, easily andwithout even knowing , an ideal wife by her conduct/duties startsmeeting with the standards / requirements of the aforesaid Gitaverses- once she accepts her husband as God on AS IS WHERE IS BASIS.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----------------------------NamasteBoth the question and the responses by sadhaks are educative andnaturally interesting to all of us. I request Brother Vyasji tospecifically tell as to whether suggestion of Sadhanaji to beprimarily of God ( not husband) and then doing duty is permitted asper Scriptures and if so, which alternative is better and why. Whichis easier? A slightly detailed observations regarding the pro andcons of both alternatives will help . Pls also address commonfeeling that half of husband's punyas get transferred to wife andhalf of wife's sins get transferred to husband. Is it correct?Asha Verma----------------------------"Both the Pati (in vrata) with wife" is the complete seNse inPATIVRATA. With Rama-Sita was a Pativrata.Numerous wives were unfortunate. They didn't qualify like Sitacorrected Rama at times; Draupadi as well. Dakshayini did not returnhome when she was responsible for her husband Siva's humiliation inher parents' home. E.g. Ahalya, Tara and Mandodari instead of noequal Pati to march who had a Vrata, are still counted among thepativratas who were actually Sativratas. i.e. they had a Vrata ofSati; With Dashratha, Kaikeyi was neither a pativrata nor asativrata; that' all.Dr Shastry-----------------------------Dear Shaliniji,Please refer Mahabharata (VanaParva)where Krushna with Satyabhamavisited the Pandavas first time after DyutaKrida. Satyabhama askedDraupadi how she is controlling all Pandavas. Panchali replies thatby following Pativrata Dharma, & she explained the same toSatyabhama. Please read those carefully. It is practicallyimpossible to follow in todays life. My personnel opinion is thateven Panchali have not followed it according to Mahabharata.According to Vyas - Dharma is Sadachara & you should stick on it.jay ShrikrushnaAnand Joshi----------------------------Dear All,gitapress has very good books at throw away prices in differentlanguages. you can go through them. Like -Bhartiya Sanskriti shastron mein nari dharmAdarsh Nari SushilaNari ShikshaBhakta NariNari DharmaNari Ankhope your queries regarding chastity, ideal wife, women dharma andgoal of womens life can be realised by reading them.regardskalrav pande----------------------------Dear Sadhika ShalinijiSince you have contacted Gita Talk forum, to the extent I read Gita,Gita has specified various yoga methods for peaceful life managementand they are applicable to all human beings - by mentioning theword 'yah' (whoever). No distinction made between the sexes orcastes or religions even.I respect female to my heart and consider them higher in their roleof reproduction and upbringing. If you find any word in my responseoffensive, that may be due to my wrong choice of word but not theintent.If you are charmed by the respect shown for 'Pativrata', please takethe spirit. The standards are written mostly by male community andobviously are biased. Husband and wife should have same standards toeach other - Pativrata and Sativrata. Going extra mile always helpsyour partner, but not to the extent you lose your freedom to prayGod / stand for justice and stand for what you think is right.Like many wise people mentioned in this post, you may consider Godas your priority for liberation and definitely husband and wife cancombinedly make it more practicable if they are able to see God ineach other to begin with.Finally you are the judge and so use your judgement. God bless youand your marriage.RegardsVenu Komanduri----------------------------Venuji, please post your other question as a separate TOPIC. thankyou, Ram Ram-----------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhika,Chaste wife is one who considers all other men as her brothers,friends or sons. But chastity is just one condition of being apativrita.1. what are the standards of one being a Pativrata wife?Accepting "husband" as he is, and serving him through words, deedsand thoughts is considered the Patni Dharma(wife's duties). One whofollow patnidharma rigorously is called pativrita.2.How does she conduct herself?She acts according to her husband's desire. She is the mostobedient, humble servant of her husband.3.How does her conduct impact her home?No ego clashes.4.How does she get emancipated from this worldly ocean merelybecause she is Pativrata?Its not "merely". This is a path of complete surrender, where wifehas no ego, no desire, no wishes of her own at all. This is a kindof "tapa". Nothig is for the wife, everything is for the husbandonly. She considers husband superior to God. It is kind of bhaktiyoga, where the wife accepts her husband as God.Do you think you are ready to be a pativrita ? I would say thataccept Krishna as your God instead of accepting a human form(husband) as yr God. Just accept firmly -Only God is mine, and I amGod's.This whole world is God's, so serve the world including yrhusband and in laws according to Gita's principles without expectinganything.Bring Love, care and happiness in yr family by servingegolessly, considering everyone as God's.Read Gita and apply its principle in daily life and you will be fine.with best wishes and Love,a sadhikaSadhna Karigar------------------------------Hari OmIt is not at all surprising to find a lot of responses to thisquestion. However as I see majority of the responses insistfor "ideal combination". That is against the very concept, verytheme, very reality of marital life. "Marriages are made inheaven" . Marriages are destiny for the couple- only factorfunctioning is "prior contractual obligations". Otherwise how cantwo souls who were so strangers sometime back get so close thatlater on the beard on the face of male becomes only the distinctionbetween two souls.A pativrata wife doesnot seek any reciprocation from her husband.She is focussed on her and her duty alone. She becomes the shadow ofher husband. Nothing explains more clearly the principlesof "surrender" to a sadhak than the conduct of an ideal wife. Themore stubborn a husband is, more shine comes in the role of wife.Hence let the discussion not insist on "bilateral" conduct.It is easy to lay down conditions for an ideal marital life. Howwife should be and how husband should be. Question here is how awife should be- irrespective of how a husband is- Raam, Raavana,Dhritrashtra, whatever or however he is.Hence let us talk of the wife alone. She gets Realisation. She getsemancipation. She gets rewarded by Paramatma and His Divine laws andprinciples. She gets highest respect ultimately from all quarters .Look at the end result:In the home of a pativrata wife, there is always peace. There is apower emanating from the very presence of the lady- such a powerthat even an evil thought can not come in the mind of other personin her presence. She is Queen of the House. She is "Grihalaxmi" !She is "Annapurna" (Feeder) !! She is power in herself. Sheis "Shakti". Her children are always obedient. She gets universallyrespected . Even the air which touches her body becomes pure enoughto purify others. There is a special aura around her. She is theultimate Lady !We shall discuss next the principles governing her conduct.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------My humble respects to all in this forum.I have just a little thought to offer here.....that isn'talways understood unitl a woman has gone through a lot ofexperiences. If any individual, (man or woamn) wants to be happy ina relationship, the key is to being satisfied within one's ownself. As much as we are thinking that the clue to our happinesscomes from the other person, we will be unhappy. Within ourhearts, each and every one of us, is the Supreme Lord. Unless He isremembered, glorified, served, etc, as well as the husband, (or viceversa, for the man) how can the living entity feel satisifed?Certainly, executing dharma of a wife is essential, it is part ofbeing a cultured human being. It is however, secondary torelationship with the original husband of all, Sri Krsna. When weknow in our hearts (or we should know) that He is foremost, and ourrelationship with Him will not end, there is a deeper confidencethat no one can take away. Without this confidence, we with alwaysbe looking for approval and confirmation from persons in thisworld....watch out! We will lose ourself if this becomes ourfocus. Do not give up your devotion to God, even if your marriedlife demands all your time. It is not truly our time.....not beingable to pamper ourselves, to knit, crochet, to read our favoritebooks, or go to the gym, hairdresser, etc. may all be sacrificed,but if a wife sacrifices her time to give bhajan to her relationshipwith the Lord, then there will be no peace. That is myopinion......as the wife of Ramachandra Dasa.gurudeve, vraja-vane, vraja bhumi vasi jane,suddha bhakte, ara vipra gane, istha mantre, hari name, yugalabhajana kame,kara ratri apurva yatane, dari mana charane tomara,jani yache ebe sara, krsna bhakti vina ara, nahi guche jiverasamsara,karma, jnana, tapa, yoga, sakalai ta karma bhoga,karma chadaite keha nare,sakala chadiya bal, sraddha devira guna gal,yanra krpa bhakti dite parechadi damba anuksana, smara asta tattva manatara kahe niskapati ratisei rati pratanaya, sri dasa gosvami pai, ei bhaktivinoda kare natiOnly one verse of the translation remains solidified in myconsciousness....."karma, jnana, tapa, yoga, sakalai ta karmbhoga".....which means that all these processes, of karma, jnana,yoga....are actually cheating. They do NOT in and of themselvesproduce bhakti, devotion to the Supreme Lord. My humble prayer, ohnewly wedded bride, or bridegroom, never forget that sadhu sanga,for the man or the woman, will keep our consciousness balanced. Ifthe woman is more of a sadhu than the man, no harm, she will happilygive her association, with humility, love and affection. If the manis more of a a sadhu than the wife, no harm, excellent.... it iscertainly much more natural for the wife to be feeling subordinateto the male....BUT EITHER WAY......respect always the need to seeone another as saintly persons, and search always for high mindedguidance/association.respectfully submitted,Mahalaksmi Dasi------------------------------Dear sadaks,Pathivratha is a chance to get liberated from being born again. Onlywoman has this chance Not Men. Woman` s all karmas, gets dispelledby Pathi Vartha Dharma though her husband may be bad. Such womanneed NOT do any pooja, sadhana etc says the script PathivrathaDharma. In the line of scripts on Dharma, there is husband(Householder) Dharma, Guru Dharma, Pthiru Dharma, Prayachita Dharma,Manu neethi sastra Etc. In Sri Rama Pravabam it is said that Man` ssins does not affect his wife. But wife sins DOES affect husband. Itis a gift God gives to be a woman. When used totally dedicatedtowards husband, her Jalma completes. That is why Pathivarthas Imentioned earlier had extrodinary powers. Why not men teach theseDharmas to their sisters before giving away in marriage?By nature woman body is designed with Karuna, Daya and ability tobear children Etc. Man is generally agressive, workholic, egoistic,Etc. But if his child shows eminence, man will say it is MY son. Oncontrary child is inefficient, he will abuse his wife, saying "Lookat your son" . Mostly woman are supressed by men. Otherwise theyhave wonderful qualities.May be some woman are not.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan--------------PRIOR POSTINGThere could be millions of questions.....The answer is one.......Know yourself.....You have all the answers......Let us purify our true self and everything will be clear.....the body is for creation, full expression, celebration......Sushil Jain-----------------------------Hari OmA good question indeed! At the outset pls note whether the otherparty is Raam or Raavan , it doesn't make any difference to Sita orMandodari- both were great ideal wives. Ideal wife is not dependenton there being Raam on the other side. Pativrata Dharma is notdependent upon husband's conduct- not at all. For that purpose noduty of a human being seeks a reciprocation from other side.Moderators can confidently amend the summary of responses to thateffect.Once Sethji Jaidayalji Goenka said to Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj(both were very close- Swamiji gave very high regard to Sethji- infact Sethji was role model for Swamiji- both ultimately realisedParmatma in one life time )-If God wants to give me birth again then I would like to get bornas a female. Because in that life form IT IS VERY EASY TO REALISEGOD !! There are no tedious Yogas etc to be performed.That Realisation / Emancipation comes to a female merely by lookingGod in her husband. As simple as that. You need to do nothing else.No fastings, no duties, no karmas, no rituals, no austerities.Nothing except "becoming of her husband by mind, speech and body" !Pativrata Dharma is a special short cut given to a female. It is aspecial concession by God to a female. It is very easy, veryrespectable, very very beneficial, very powerful and very certain.If husband luckily is "hard/tough nut" then very very fast also.Simple rule is:Tumhi mere mandir, tumhi meri pooja , tumhi devata ho!Only Hubby is my temple, only He is my worship and only He is my God.There are great principles involved in this short cut for women. Onthe roots there are reasons why it is so easy or so successful. Idon't see much difference between principles involved in "surrender"under BG 18:66 and a lady deciding to follow pativrata dharma .To be contdJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-----------------------------Swamiji focused more on vivek i.e. we are not this body and webelong to Paramatma.If your husband is good then you will be more happier by serving andpleasing him. That is duty of pativrita.But unfortunately, most people in this Kali yug are fallen. They tryto use their position to exploit others.Remember at all times --tvameya mata ca pita tvamevaAccept Krishna/Ram as everything. Surrender unto Paramatma and doyour duty. Consider Ram/Krishna as your husband, mother father etc.It is better to stand up and not let people take advantage of you.Best wishes for your marriage.Gaurav Mittal------------------------------In my earlier comment i had given the prescription of the advicegiven by Draupadi to Rukmini . Draupadi is one of the ideal Indianwomanhood, Sati, along with Gandhari , Savitri , Damayanti ,Maitreyi , Gargi , Arundhuti , Kunti, Sita, Shakuntala, Khana andmany others.To my mind it is most essential to ensure the compatibility of thehusband and wife . For that , proper match in the level of level ofeducation , intellect , knowledge and wisdom , cultural , moral ,etiquette , likes and dislikes , values and some such personalqualities are essential prerequisites . Matching family background ,financial , educational , moral and ethical of the husband and wife'sfamily , is also a requirement . In the marriage there should not beany sort of 'dowry' , directly or indirectly, all the expenses of themarriage shall have to be balanced . Girls family must not have toincur more expenses than the boy's family as that are of girl'sfamily ; the groom may have to share fully or partially, similarlythe bride also , if she is employed.Show off in the marriage to berestricted .Girl must not be denied the rights of her lawfulinheritance rights from her parents since she has been married off .Girl shall never be blamed if the couple do not have a male child .Dowry , in any form post marriage must be stopped.The boy's family must accept the girl as the daughter of the boy'sfamily , and vice verse for the boy , the boy must be accepted inthe girl's family as their son. Absolute sense of equality ,equanimity , unconditional love , compassion , giving , caring ,sharing , laughter , joy ,smile , patience , perseverance , senseof happiness and bliss must be the ambient condition.With these existential ambiance , it is absolutely necessary for thegirl to be " patibrata" and the boy must also be " patnibrata" in thesame vein. As per social sysem , daughters are to live in thehusband's home , and take husband's title , but that shall never meanthe the girl is inferior to the boy and the reverse thing is notsocially acceptable. Boy must try to stay with his parent's home ifhe works around and if there is not a extremely difficult problem inthat.The boy has to face tremendous problem to balance the love andattention his his mother and his wife. Here both the wife and mothermust have a large kind heart to appreciate with a sense of unboundedlove.On the issue of 'patibrata' vis - a - vi , the girl must be awilling partner in husband's sexual desires and both must bethoroughly understanding and sharing of each others physical,mental / psychological needs. Self gratification in sex life isutterly wrong, instead unconditional love , caring , sharing ,laughter and smile must be a hall mark in their relationship. Noproblem on earth is more important to sacrifice these essentialqualities.The girl must take husband's father as her own father , mother asher own mother , brothers , sisters and other relatives as her ownand so is a must for the boy. The girl's family must never meddle inthe girl's husband or family unless it becomes a requirement in anegative situation , but never when things are going beautifully allright in the name of showing love to their daughter.Girl must take up unconditionally the household chores in the spiritof giving , even if she may be a working woman and the boy also shareunconditionally and if he does not know , he must learn , along withthe boy's mother and father , to the maximum extent possible. Girlmust understand , her mother - in - law has become aged and she isyoung and if she can give some relief to her mother - in law , whatis that a big deal ?She must very sacrificially look after the needs of the husband'sparents and other relations . Having said this , the recipients heremust not , I repeat must not demand , as a right to get all theservices the girl desires to do voluntarily and care and share to themaximum extent they will be able to share with the sense ofgratitude and love.Every good and sustaining relationship must be based on " givingunconditionally without any expectation of return". This is veryhard task but extremely fruitful proposition because the gains insuch acts will be manifold which is beyond imagination.The girl after marriage may be incapacitated due to some debility ,may not be take up her chores , may be be able to sexualgratification to her husband , they the boy must give the same levelof love , take up the chores , duties and responsibilities of thegirl and must not seek another woman for sexual gratification .similarly , if the boy loses the capacity for earning , becomesincapacitated due to illness or sexually , the girl must strive hermaximum to honourably earn livelihood and must need seek sexualgratification outside.Regarding in law relations , there must be an unbounded love andequanimity.Unconditional love , caring , sharing without any expectations arethe basic tenets of any relationship. God , whatever , definition ,meaning and concepts , human beings have been able to creat in theGod , 'unconditional love' is the only definition of " GOD".Trillions of cell function in the spirit of sharing , unconditionallove.Be 'gluon' to 'quark' , be in ' transcendental samadhi in thevision of ' dance of Shiva'rathindra prasad lahiri-----------------------------KINDLY BE CONCISE! Also in future include if from scriptures / anyreferences.Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram-----------------------------Namastey,You are talking about chaste woman..Pativrata..but are you sure thatpati himself is as chaste as woman is expected to be?Under guise of holy Gita, this appears to be a male oriented, maledominated conversation expecting woman to be pativrata and not patito be chaste!!Ramesh. M. Jhalla-----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear sadaks,Chaste is the quality of a lady who is very rare. Pathivirtha meansa lady who has taken her husband as Vartham (Yogam). A lady who doesanything for her husband blindly, obeys her husband blindly, takestotal care of her husband is known as Pathivartha. Such lady powers:1) The Tulsi plant with we all know is a lady who was so. But herhusband was bad.Even Sri Vishnu could not defeat that man. Sri Vishnu in disguise asher husband could remove her powers thereby killed that Rakshas. Butthe lady cursed Sri Vishnu to become stone as Sri Vishnu act wasstone hearted. So Sri Vishnu became Salagram which is veryauspisious. The lady became Tulsi by the boon of Vishnu. 2) Anotherlady could stop rotation of earth. 3) Another lady could makeThrimoorthy (Bharama, Vishnu and Shiva) a infants. 4) Another ladycould resist any curse by great saint Konkanar. 5) Duryodhan mothercursed Sri Krishna that HIS decendants be destroyed- and ithappened. 6) Lady Savitri could cheat Yama (Demi God of death) andbring back her husbands life.In Astrology it is said if a lady is chaste, her husband has longlife. Normally such ladies to certain extent are there even today.They have the power to foresee things, to predict things that willhappen, and also can prevent her husband from troubles. There is onesuch lady I closely know.B.Sathyanarayan-----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Having taken male body, its little odd to advise on being "chastewife", but as sister or daughter about to be married I can tell fewthings that may help.We are human being first, so as human being let us be humble, lovingand caring in general. Nice man or woman only can become chaste manor wife.If its a joint family scenario, then become(act like) daughter soothers feel comfortable around you so at least one less complain.It should not be a burden to become "chaste wife", rather natural.How? Think of marriage as relationship between man and wife tofulfil natural and God ordained instincts for healthy progeny, andtherefore sacred. Having entered the relationship, one makes theother complete by offering everything one is given, body, mind andspirit.The most important element of orderly functioning of any society isbeing chaste. Remember, attractions on physical level fades away fsofast, and conflicts will dominate relationship affecting you two andfamilies on both sides. One may not realize the cause being physicalproblems or boredom or blame game played by both.So it is better to have lower or down to earth expectations rightfrom the beginning. You are there to give at all levels and in theprocess accept whatever comes your way(Gita).When this happens, just weather the storm and you will be glad youdid.Physical aspect is but one aspect and there are so many beautifulaspects such as friendship, love, freedom and the mutual feeling "myspouse loves me the most"!I live by one mantra that helps me all these years in married life,specially in adverse situations, if at all they arise. "You cannotget a better spouse than the spouse you have now". It may seem veryhard sometimes, specially in early years, when tempers run high, andanger takes over to think this mantra. At this time remind yourselfagain and again of the above mantra. This time shall pass also, justwait.As husbands we can always help wives to be chaste by being chasteourselves.Communication is another important tool. Talk things over byovercoming "I am not going to talk to you now" feelings.Care for others in the family so the husband feels relieved as hemay be duty bound to care for parents, unmarried siblings etc etc.Love them so much so that they will not be able to live without you.Lastly, remember whatever be the problem ultimately it is your Lovefor one another that will pull you out from the perceived dump!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt--------------------------Lot of benefits.(1) You will be automatically following the rulings of thescriptures.(2) Your hubby will be one of the happiest men on the earth.(3) Your children will be proud of you and themselves, besides theywill grow uplike healthy kids.(4) The family will remain organised.(5) Biological benefits, such as no danger of AIDS etc.(6) A real sense of 'satisfaction'(7) You will be a source of 'satvik fragrance' in the society.(8) You will become a 'happiness generating unit' of the SupremeLord.And, if by Lord Krishna's grace, your would-be husband is also ofthe similar coviction, then both of you will be adding a cementingfactor in the prevailing disgusting environment of 'familydisorganisation'The world needs such relationship between husband and wife, if wehave to save the mankind from further degeneration into disorganisedpsychic individuals suffering divorce, barren living-inrelationship, family-disoriented children etc.Besides, you will be a respected person in the eyes of all.Regards,Suresh C Sharma-----------------------------Dear Shalini,Lovely question. Recently I had the opportunity to listen to theBhagavatham and the story of Devahuthi and Kardama was being told.The speaker extolled the virtue of a dharmapatni- one who walks thepath of dharma along with the husband. The wife ensures that thehusband walks the path of dharma! Anyways when Kardama asksdevahuthi what she wants for all the years of seva she hasdone for him without a single thought for herself, she is surprisedthat he even asked her such a question! She says that her very sevabrought total fulfillment that she could not think of anything toask for! The Bhagavatham went on to explain how when awoman "demands" to be "paid" for her services as a "wife" sheceases to be one and becomes a "vaisha". Janaka tells Rama that Sitais his sahadharmachari.Before I got married, my grandma presented me with a book on weddingvows. It is interesting to note the use of the word sakhi for wifeduring the course of taking the vows- not "patni"- but belovedfriend. In this beautiful path of friendship, trust is thecornerstone. And it is a two way street. The goal of the sacramentof marriage is for both to walk the spiritual path together. The"walking" of the path of life together makes the journey joyful. Thefocus is on the "divine".Yes, part of making the commitment of marriage is "chastity"- ofbeing in a monogamous relationship. This brings social structuremuch needed for healthy progeny- for the long term welfare of familyand state.All the very best and blessings to you and your fiance.Meenakshi Srinivasan-----------------------------I think this question is asked by Shalini Bhardvaja. Such quqlitiesof the girl can be evaluated by asking her questions when you chatwith her. Mostly we can judge from the family she inherits. No bodycan predicted whether she is loyal or not. Sometimes some people tryto match their horoscopes. Before marriage there are many meetingsand at that time by asking questions we can judge the other partyIn this connections we have to rely on our luck and the religousceremony done during the marriage.If you keep her with love, loyalty and compassion then there willnot be any barrier in your life.My best wishes to you bothIf you want to read a book written by Utsala on Ideal marriagePlease inquire into Inner Traditions publication written by a southIndia Girl who married with the President of Inner TraditionsThanksTruly yoursShankerprasad S Bhatt-------------------------Dear shalini,As some one has advised, in India it is one who who has sex onlywith her husband. To my knowledge even a president of India whoknowledge of our ancient Hindu philosophy was extraordinary andgreat had an affair with another lady but his wife just stoppedsleeping in the same bed and also never talked to him for nearly 30years.What i want to say is we are all humans and we can err. Thischastity business is something which every religion includingChristianity,Islam imposes on women only and i think it is UNFAIR. Itis upto you as human to decide.captain Johann samuhanand--------------------------PRIOR POSTINGSister,In Kaliyuga, senses and indriyas are in a shithil state. weak state.So in todays time chaste wife is one who does not copulate any manother than her husband.Being obedient, serving your husband, treating any other man asfather/brother, standing strong in odd-good bad times withoutbreaking relation is enough.Try as many of these points as you can. Books on Naari dharma areavailable in market.blessing yourskalrav pande-----------------------On being a chaste WifeMy feeling on this issue, Draupadi appears to be most ideal as perour scriptures.The advise given by Draupadi to Rukmini, SriKrishna's wife on this particular issue when asked for , is mostapt.rathindra prasad lahiri------------------------Sita is an exampleProvided there is Ram on other sideDinesh Patel-------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
