melvin 1 Report post Posted July 4, 2009 Please, Melvin, no more material analogies! Aren`t all analogies, Primate, material in explaining the spiritual? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
primate 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2009 Sounds like you already decided how Creation had occurred. However, no matter how well a person's explaination is, you need to understand that your theory IS a theory. There is no way you could proof that this is true. Unless you witness the Birth of the Universe yourself. If you ask me, I will follow Gautama Buddha's advice on this one. He stated that it doesn't matter how the Universe formed or how it will end. All that matters is achieving Enlightnment. I don't think creation 'occurred'. There simply is a cosmic manifestation. As far as proof is concerned, I didn’t say anything that isn't also stated in Vedic literature. That should be proof enough.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
primate 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2009 Aren`t all analogies, Primate, material in explaining the spiritual? No. There can be strictly logical analogies of reality, without any material reference, apart from the obvious requirement that such a model must explain all of reality including our material world. For example, a mathematical model of reality (such as a mathematical chaos model) is a non-material analogy.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
melvin 1 Report post Posted July 4, 2009 No. There can be strictly logical analogies of reality, without any material reference, apart from the obvious requirement that such a model must explain all of reality including our material world. For example, a mathematical model of reality (such as a mathematical chaos model) is a non-material analogy.. I hate to say this, Primate. But I can`t really understand what your saying using this so-called physical theories. They are still material to me in explaining the spiritual. Physics is not my forte. I failed in math when I was in high school. I`m sorry. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
primate 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2009 I hate to say this, Primate. But I can`t really understand what your saying using this so-called physical theories. They are still material to me in explaining the spiritual. Physics is not my forte. I failed in math when I was in high school. I`m sorry. Why, Melvin, do you think the Vedas exist, if the authors didn't think reality can be logically explained? I made it clear (and so do the Vedas) that material analogies are necessarily limited in explanatory power, because everything material is an illusion and a product of our ignorant material consciousness. However, this doesn't mean that we can't understand reality in our (subtle) mind. That's where mathematics and logic reside.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted July 4, 2009 Krishna cannot be found through mental speculation. Better to put one's faith in God than in one's mental abilities. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
primate 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2009 Krishna cannot be found through mental speculation. Better to put one's faith in God than in one's mental abilities. Actually, it's best to do both.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted July 4, 2009 theist: Krishna cannot be found through mental speculation. Better to put one's faith in God than in one's mental abilities. response from primate. Actually, it's best to do both.. Well this is good. You are now an agnostic no longer and have developed some faith in knowledge in God. That is that He exists. Now we must differentiate between mental speculation and philosophical speculation. One must use the mind to question into the reality of the absolute truth. That is philosophical speculation. The difference as Prabhupada used the terms is in mental speculation one expects the final answer to be arrived at through the processes of the mind and philosophical speculation is used to for wondering about the life we see before us and formulating relevant questions to place before guru and God. In one process faith is placed in the mind alone and in the other faith goes to God and His representative and the mind is used as a tool only. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted July 4, 2009 TRANSLATION Bg 3.3 The Blessed Lord said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who realize the Self. Some are inclined to understand Him by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others are inclined to know Him by devotional work. PURPORT : In the Second Chapter, verse 39, the Lord explained two kinds of procedures-namely sāṅkhya-yoga and karma-yoga, or buddhi-yoga. In this verse, the Lord explains the same more clearly. Sāṅkhya-yoga, or the analytical study of the nature of spirit and matter, is the subject matter for persons who are inclined to speculate and understand things by experimental knowledge and philosophy. The other class of men work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as it is explained in the 61st verse of the Second Chapter. The Lord has explained, also in the 39th verse, that by working by the principles of buddhi-yoga, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can be relieved from the bonds of action; and, furthermore, there is no flaw in the process. The same principle is more clearly explained in the 61st verse-that this buddhi-yoga is to depend entirely on the Supreme (or more specifically, on Kṛṣṇa), and in this way all the senses can be brought under control very easily. Therefore, both the yogas are interdependant, as religion and philosophy. Religion without philosophy is sentiment, or sometimes fanaticism, while philosophy without religion is mental speculation. The ultimate goal is Kṛṣṇa, because the philosophers who are also sincerely searching after the Absolute Truth come in the end to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. The whole process is to understand the real position of the self in relation to the Superself. The indirect process is philosophical speculation, by which, gradually, one may come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness; and the other process is directly connecting with everything in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Of these two, the path of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is better because it does not depend on purifying the senses by a philosophical process. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is itself the purifying process, and by the direct method of devotional service it is simultaneously easy and sublime. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
melvin 1 Report post Posted July 4, 2009 Yes! Primate has finally understood. Gimme five, Theist! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted July 5, 2009 Apparently. I hope so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
melvin 1 Report post Posted July 5, 2009 Ngeek! Is that your hand, Theist? Mine`s smaller ( height`s 5`5). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted July 5, 2009 Yep. I'm 7'8";) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
