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But is it so automatic? We have seen and perhaps experienced that the strictest adherents to the rituals of vaidhi bhakti even after decades haven't come to the platform you described.

 

Somewhere in the midst of it all we have to come to want to cross that barrior of I me mine and actually want to love.

 

***But is it so automatic? We have seen and perhaps experienced that the strictest adherents to the rituals of vaidhi bhakti even after decades haven't come to the platform you described.***

 

My experience has been philosophy first, so no I am not speculating, I have a small taste, some attachment to that taste, include rituals as I can, and treat people pretty fairly.

 

The strict adherents you mention have not been strict about the most basic and essential aspect of vaidhi bhakti...hearing. They deviated. I only heard from Srila Prabhupada, and compare anything anyone else says (like reading on forums, his godbrothers, past acaryas, etc) to his words. This has kept me safe and allowed me some small progress, or I wouldn't respond to your post as you seemed genuinely in need, and if I had nothing to offer I would be just trying to lord over you in your vulnerability.

 

Srila Prabhupada said it would be automatic, even if you didn't know anything in the beginning, but he meant for those who read his books and took his vani ONLY. That is what he said, and what he meant. He didn't vouch for anyone else, and neither do I.

 

That barrier of I me mine remains for quite some time, look at all the very advanced mixed devotees of the Lord. Love comes at intervals inbetween, if you equate love with dedication and duty and small attachment due to taste.

 

Sthai Bhava leading to Prema is another animal. I am told.

 

In my opinion it is much better to err on the side of dry mental speculation than sentimental religious fanaticism, which is one of the things I have appreciated about what seemed to be your approach after reading your posts over the years.

 

Like in the Gita where Krsna says that Jnana is more advanced than Fruitive sacrifice.

 

Best regards. Hare Krsna!

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I only heard from Srila Prabhupada, and compare anything anyone else says (like reading on forums, his godbrothers, past acaryas, etc) to his words. posted by andy

I dont understand Andy, the mood of the pure Prabhupada disciples. Why would they need to test the acaryas writings in this way?

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Theist:

' religion without philosophy is just sentiment and philosophy without religion is mental speculation.'

What does 'religion' mean in this context?

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

'religion' in this context means: Taking ones own meager labor as all-in-all ... without higher knowledge of purpose & intention.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

bija: . . . Rather than wrestling and renunciation...the devotee is free because he is fully integrated. Rather than disintegrated and fragmented.

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Get this man some nectar. Some heavy duty nectar.

More nectar, More nectar, More nectar.

 

Watch Srila Prabhupada's DVD [we all waited 30 years for these to be made available] and look at his face and try to pinpoint his moments of "Mission accomplished" or, "I can believe this is happening" or, "Yes, Yes, Yes I've done it. It's done" or, "I'm a genuine first-rate guru extrardinaire, par-excellance" ---this is so glorious.

 

See Prabhupada as he stays somber and dignified just when He should be effervescent with jubilation & revelry.

 

These moments of SP own personal 'a sense of great accomplishment' is hidden in his face & deportment. --remember that Video tapings were rare just as his appearence at any venue was, especially an Iskcon temple its self, since SP traveled so much in the formulative years of Iskcon's youthful years.

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Watch Srila Prabhupada's DVD [we all waited 30 years for these to be made available] and look at his face and try to pinpoint his moments of "Mission accomplished" or, "I can believe this is happening" or, "Yes, Yes, Yes I've done it. It's done" or, "I'm a genuine first-rate guru extrardinaire, par-excellance" ---this is so glorious.

 

See Prabhupada as he stays somber and dignified just when He should be effervescent with jubilation & revelry.

 

These moments of SP own personal 'a sense of great accomplishment' is hidden in his face & deportment. --remember that Video tapings were rare just as his appearence at any venue was, especially an Iskcon temple its self, since SP traveled so much in the formulative years of Iskcon's youthful years.

 

cool jan...real nectar!

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***But is it so automatic? We have seen and perhaps experienced that the strictest adherents to the rituals of vaidhi bhakti even after decades haven't come to the platform you described.***

 

My experience has been philosophy first, so no I am not speculating, I have a small taste, some attachment to that taste, include rituals as I can, and treat people pretty fairly.

 

The strict adherents you mention have not been strict about the most basic and essential aspect of vaidhi bhakti...hearing. They deviated. I only heard from Srila Prabhupada, and compare anything anyone else says (like reading on forums, his godbrothers, past acaryas, etc) to his words. This has kept me safe and allowed me some small progress, or I wouldn't respond to your post as you seemed genuinely in need, and if I had nothing to offer I would be just trying to lord over you in your vulnerability.

 

Srila Prabhupada said it would be automatic, even if you didn't know anything in the beginning, but he meant for those who read his books and took his vani ONLY. That is what he said, and what he meant. He didn't vouch for anyone else, and neither do I.

 

That barrier of I me mine remains for quite some time, look at all the very advanced mixed devotees of the Lord. Love comes at intervals inbetween, if you equate love with dedication and duty and small attachment due to taste.

 

Sthai Bhava leading to Prema is another animal. I am told.

 

In my opinion it is much better to err on the side of dry mental speculation than sentimental religious fanaticism, which is one of the things I have appreciated about what seemed to be your approach after reading your posts over the years.

 

Like in the Gita where Krsna says that Jnana is more advanced than Fruitive sacrifice.

 

Best regards. Hare Krsna!

 

 

I agree philosophy comes first but the heart must open at some point or as you pointed out one is not really hearing.

 

 

Haribol and thanks for the encouragement.

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Theist:

' religion without philosophy is just sentiment and philosophy without religion is mental speculation.'

What does 'religion' mean in this context?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::

'religion' in this context means: Taking ones own meager labor asall-in-all ... without higher knowledge of purpose & intention.

 

Yesthis is also where I wanted to go with this thread. The idea of intention. Who of us really knows why we do what we do? It's not an easy read.

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Hello Theist,

Isn't the meaning of religion for a Vaishnava to dovetail his desires with Krishna's desires so he can serve purely ? In other words, a Vaishnava has no separate desires from those of the Lord. If we look at the literal meaning of religion, it means to relink with Divinity. Yoga means to re-yoke or re-link, also. In our long history as baddha-jivas, we have maintained separate desire from that of the Lord, only to find ourselves frustrated repeatedly. Now it is time for us to willingly re-establish that connection.

 

Bhaktatraveler and sanatan, I am a little amazed to find other motorheads here, but really it shouldn't be surprising. It's fun until you crash, then the pain and suffering start. I found this web-site after I crashed, and it has satisfied my desire to discuss bhakti yoga with like-minded individuals. Personally, I have less desire to be a "boy racer" since crashing, although I still have my moments, like yesterday over HWY 17. I have considered riding a bicycle again, although I must use a car for work. It has become apparent to me that use of automobiles is one of the factors that is making it tough on Mother Earth. We have had some tremendous karma to have had the opportunity to use these fantastic machines, the automobiles. Not even kings of yore would have dreamt of such things. But, after all, they are only machines, dead matter...

jeffster/AMd

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Got this classic turbo jet last summer. What a gas! Stars in the country night and 0 to 60 in 5 seconds flat.

 

Keepin' it sideways,

 

gHari

 

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post-305-138274057262_thumb.jpg

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We must bring the heart into it.

 

And that is indeed the most difficult thing to do without getting all sentimental in a sahajiya sort of way.

 

Personally, I think the best way to bring the heart in to it is by really absorbing into the books and the purports.

 

By reading the books hour after hour, day after day year after year we might finally start to "feel the love" shared by the spiritual master.

 

Of course that needs to be tempered with chanting the rounds etc.

 

I know for many older devotees they seem to feel as if they have already read the books for along time and then they sorta just get all off into ISKCON politics or some other social situation involving other devotees and put the books on the shelf to collect dust.

 

The books should always be a new, fresh experience.

If they aren't we are spiritual dead and aren't going to go anywhere in spiritual advancement.

 

Are the books without some flaw or error?

Probably not.

But, they are probably 99% right on the money and that is enough to get us where we want to go.

 

We have to make sacrifice.

That is they key.

The more we really and truly give of ourselves for the benefit of others the more the love will actually start to blossom in our hearts.

 

If we aren't sacrificing for the cause of love, then we will never feel the love.

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Yesthis is also where I wanted to go with this thread. The idea of intention. Who of us really knows why we do what we do? It's not an easy read.

 

Great point Theist.

 

I remember reading that to follow the rules and regs strictly without understanding the goal you are trying to reach in doing so, will be completely worthless. I thought, but if you understood the goal, why do anything to get there? Didn't make sense.

 

But then I realized that the small but real taste and realization I had of Krsna's presence in his holy names, and the small change in attitude and character that occured in me after chanting and reading Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita, were signs of what would expand to greater things if I were to incorporate further rules and regs. So this newfound Self-Interest satisfied the criteria for me enough that my religiousity has not become too mundane and fanatic.

 

So the heart of it is Enlightened Self-interest at first. We then gradually come to be able to have other's true Self-interest in our relation to them as our Abhidehya leads to Sambhanda, and this brings proper balance between the Head chakras and Heart chakra and our material dealings reflect more mode of goodness during the purifying process. We can then use our sentimentality to persuade others through our religious process.

 

Without enlightened self-interest our dealings with others are simply respectful business like manipulation at best, and fanatic controlling facism at worst.

 

That is my nickles worth at least.

 

Hari Bol!

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Theist-ji... maybe you feel top heavy because your legs are weak? Legs are the manifestation of service. See SB 3.6.33:

 

TRANSLATION

Thereafter, service was manifested from the legs of the Personality of Godhead for the sake of perfecting the religious function. Situated on the legs are the śūdras, who satisfy the Lord by service.

PURPORT

Service is the real constitutional occupation of all living entities. The living entities are meant to render service to the Lord, and they can attain religious perfection by this service attitude. One cannot attain religious perfection simply by speculating to attain theoretical knowledge...

 

More here: http://vedabase.net/sb/3/6/33/en

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Theist-ji... maybe you feel top heavy because your legs are weak? Legs are the manifestation of service. See SB 3.6.33:

 

TRANSLATION

Thereafter, service was manifested from the legs of the Personality of Godhead for the sake of perfecting the religious function. Situated on the legs are the śūdras, who satisfy the Lord by service.

PURPORT

Service is the real constitutional occupation of all living entities. The living entities are meant to render service to the Lord, and they can attain religious perfection by this service attitude. One cannot attain religious perfection simply by speculating to attain theoretical knowledge...

 

More here: http://vedabase.net/sb/3/6/33/en

 

To expand on this point, someone who is more strictly inclined to the intellect will see their devotional service stymied or stunted at some point if they fail to understand the method the most recent MahaBhagavat Gaudiya Acarya gave them to employ those who are predominantly chest/arms, belly, and last but not least, legs.

 

Srila Prabhupada mentioned in one conversation that if the Head gets straight, the others will fall in line.

 

To me this means a proper and pure understanding of the Acarya's time/place/circumstance dispensation for implementing Daiva Varnasrama Dharma, first among his disciples, then amongst all comers from society at large.

 

Service begins with Hearing. Then chanting. A parapeligiac can do this and gain Transcendental knowledge. No legs required. But their devotional service will not progress beyond proper theory, and they will not experience further purification, if they cannot bring theory into practice by dedicating their loving attentions to the rest of the societal body nicely due to lack of understanding of how to persuade them, naturally, to get involved.

 

I see alot of intellectuals who seem to theoretically grok the descriptions of guru-disciple relationships between past acaryas, seem to theoretically grok the strict Vedic-viddhi Varnasrama system of past yugas, but have no capacity to take instruction on how to boil that down according to the Acarya's instruction for expanding the Sankirtana Yajna throughout society in THIS age. So they look down on everyone else as hopelessly incapable of ever conforming to Varnasrama, when it is they who have lacked surrender to the instructions in this regard given according to the pure angle of vision of Srila Prabhupada, as dictated to the heart of his mind by the omniscient Sri Guru Balaramji, and are thus themselves standing in the way and have no legs to stand on.

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Yes, these things ultimately boil down to an affair of our heart...

Proper sadhu sanga melts our heart... that is what we all need: the company of sadhus to change our heart. Every time I visit our temple my heart melts just a little bit due to all the nice devotees who come there.

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So the heart of it is Enlightened Self-interestat first. We then gradually come to be able to have other's trueSelf-interest in our relation to them as our Abhidehya leads toSambhanda, and this brings proper balance between the Head chakras andHeart chakra and our material dealings reflect more mode of goodnessduring the purifying process. We can then use our sentimentality topersuade others through our religious process.

 

Yes because when someone speaks to us out of love we can perceive that that person is not trying to exploit us or dominate us.

Even a stranger that is trying to pull us out of a house that is on fire conveys a genuine concern for our well being and it is palpable immediately.

This is what I perceived from Srila Prabhupada. We had to ask ourselves, "what drives this elderly man to work so incredibly hard to spread Krishna consciousness," and the only answer is his intense love for Krishna and all others.

Without enlightened self-interest our dealings with others are simplyrespectful business like manipulation at best, and fanatic controllingfacism at worst.

Yes again. The main focus can become to build a dominant institution just for the sake of building the institution to a dominant position while identifying it as our extended self.

Knowing and loving Krishna and others is the real goal and in our own enlightened self interest.(I like that phrase).

 

That is my nickles worth at least.

 

Worth much more than that.

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Service begins with Hearing. Then chanting.

 

First you have to get to the point where you want to serve. People were inspired to serve because they were exposed to the sadhu sanga. If we associate with other devotees the service atitude arises in our heart.

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First you have to get to the point where you want to serve. People were inspired to serve because they were exposed to the sadhu sanga. If we associate with other devotees the service atitude arises in our heart.

 

Bhakti Yoga 101.

 

The first limb of devotional SERVICE is HEARING.

 

HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami told us his Books were the recorded CHANTING of his own devotional ecstasies, which included his instructions to anyone who wished to be disciplined by his transcendental spiritual knowledge. So to HEAR from HIM is to SERVE HIM, and thus by watering the root, to serve EVERYONE.

 

The biggest mistake people make is not broadening their mind far enough to understand this point. They still have a narrow conception that to "serve" ONLY means they need to walk up to someone in a body and say "What can I do for you?" Or that the Sadhu Sanga they must approach cannot possibly include a "departedinvisibleposthumous" Acarya.

 

The next largest mistake is refusing to accept Srila Prabhupada's admonishment that we can associate with him (a devotee) by his Vani or following his instructions. Regardless if we can see his Vapu (bodily form) or not.

 

This is the main reason the purport below, which is original and unchanged, was changed by the Psuedo devotees to read that one must remain in and associate with those in the "society", instead of what the Acarya said...

 

 

Books : Sri Caitanya-caritamrta - 1975 Edition : Cc. Madhya-lila : Madhya 19: Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Srila Rupa Gosvami : Madhya 19.157 : PURPORT :

If one thinks that there are many pseudo devotees or nondevotees in the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Society, one can keep direct company with the spiritual master, and if there is any doubt, one should consult the spiritual master. However, unless one follows the spiritual master's instructions and the regulative principles governing chanting and hearing the holy name of the Lord, one cannot become a pure devotee. By one's mental concoctions, one falls down. By associating with nondevotees, one breaks the regulative principles and is thereby lost.

 

 

And this purport from SB further elaborates.

 

 

Books : Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 4: "The Creation of the Fourth Order" : SB 4.28: Puranjana Becomes a Woman in the Next Life : SB 4.28.47 : PURPORT :

Figuratively the queen is supposed to be the disciple of the king; thus when the mortal body of the spiritual master expires, his disciples should cry exactly as the queen cries when the king leaves his body. However, the disciple and spiritual master are never separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the spiritual master. This is called the association of vāṇī (words). Physical presence is called vapuḥ. As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master.

 

 

The only Sadhu Sanga that is bonafide are those personages who will not neglect this aspect of the Acaryas teachings, in my humble opinion.

 

All others are fit to be avoided, because they invariably are looking to procure servants to expand the influence of their speculative mission.

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Bhakti Yoga 101.

 

The first limb of devotional SERVICE is HEARING.

 

HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami told us his Books were the recorded CHANTING of his own devotional ecstasies, which included his instructions to anyone who wished to be disciplined by his transcendental spiritual knowledge. So to HEAR from HIM is to SERVE HIM, and thus by watering the root, to serve EVERYONE.

 

The biggest mistake people make is not broadening their mind far enough to understand this point. They still have a narrow conception that to "serve" ONLY means they need to walk up to someone in a body and say "What can I do for you?" Or that the Sadhu Sanga they must approach cannot possibly include a "departedinvisibleposthumous" Acarya.

 

The next largest mistake is refusing to accept Srila Prabhupada's admonishment that we can associate with him (a devotee) by his Vani or following his instructions. Regardless if we can see his Vapu (bodily form) or not.

 

This is the main reason the purport below, which is original and unchanged, was changed by the Psuedo devotees to read that one must remain in and associate with those in the "society", instead of what the Acarya said...

 

 

 

And this purport from SB further elaborates.

 

 

 

The only Sadhu Sanga that is bonafide are those personages who will not neglect this aspect of the Acaryas teachings, in my humble opinion.

 

All others are fit to be avoided, because they invariably are looking to procure servants to expand the influence of their speculative mission.

 

Very good points andy108, where have you been all those years? Yes, it is obvious, Krishna sent Srila Prabhupada. But as usual, conditioned souls say, no it is not Prabhupada.

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Jaya Suchandra Prabhu.

 

Posted here a bit in prior years, different user name, style should be mostly the same. Been getting solid with the philosophy, never got hooked into any apa-Iskcon scene, so I am waiting for my purification to get to a sufficient level that Srila Prabhupada will give me a commission, start a sankirtana temple somewhere maybe, invest in a printing press. Til then just hanging on the fringe like all the others who were marginalized into exile by the shysters and hucksters, but don't have the potency to initiate anything substantial on our own, or take back a property and some money to kick start something.

 

It is just a matter of time and patience though.

 

Infiltrated a temple once, and due to Krsna's arrangement was practically running the whole program when the envious caught on to my mood, and brought the whole gauntlet down on me, barely escaped without a fight (literally) and had no chance of winning. The whole thing was just to show me I could do it and train me up a bit, give me a glimpse, and get me out in the nick of time. Next time is for keeps.

 

Hare Krsna

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The only Sadhu Sanga that is bonafide are those personages who will not neglect this aspect of the Acaryas teachings, in my humble opinion.

 

All others are fit to be avoided, because they invariably are looking to procure servants to expand the influence of their speculative mission.

 

If you think that the association of regular devotees is not sadhu-sanga, that is your loss.

 

I like to associate with devotees of all kinds, provided that they are not envious or offensive to other Vaishnavas. Others I respect and avoid.

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