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Ian Kensy 2009

Split in SNM's sanga

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Could it be that it has something to do with institution? Traditionally Vaishnavas don't set up institutions but base their exchange upon spiritual affection. However, in order to bring Vaishnavism to the whole world Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja thought it wise to install around 1910 the framework of an institution.

 

Sometimes it so happens that this very dynamic of an institution becomes too prominent and the spirituality is lacking behind. This was studied also at other religions like Christianity, that sometimes it seemed that the institutional beaurocracy even took control and spirituality was almost lost.

 

Those who are within such an institutional system even cannot understand these two aspects - see it all as one. In Christianity many started to rejet the institution and became non-institutional saints, like D'arc, Assisi, St.Martin, etc etc.

 

Could be that this will also happen to the Vaishnava movement, that some will seek for non-institutional spirituality. Especially when the institutions are simply used for power and control.

 

 

So true. Years back I was complaining to one of the few senior Iskcon people that I know about the over emphasis in Iskcon on institutionalism etc etc.

 

 

He replied that I was right but then he brought up the example of the Catholic Church and Saint Francis of Assisi. He said Iskcojn will be like that. It was really an eye opener for me. These institutions like the Catholic Church are where people go to amass much sukriti and out of that group true saints can arise despite the troubles with the instituion.

 

 

I find it impossible to believe that the same is not true for Iskcon.

 

 

I heard NM called Iskcon a "sukriti machine". And that it is. We know about the nonsense that has taking place and still does but as Beggar pointed out earlier we need take a balanced view. We need to factor in all the tremendous good they have and are doing as well.

 

 

Ian wants good association that inspires him. For a new person in Krishna consciousness this shows an exceptional understanding of the reality of the situation.

 

 

Ian, we must prepare ourselves and receive Krishna's grace before we can handle improved association. You were given a taste and then it was withdrawn leaving you searching hard to find it again. This is how Krishna works. :) There is union followed by separation, then separation which intensifies the desire for union and on and on. I think Krishna has you marked for many blessings. Stay the course.

 

 

Just find the instructions from your chosen guru and follow them as best you can and Krishna will arrange higher and higher association for you.

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Thankyou everybody for the instructions. I did not mean my simple question to turn into a conversation about institutionalism but that seems to be something that is on everybody's mind. I thought that this was a website that was not from ISKCON and therefore asked how to find Narayan Maharaja followers in America who were not followers of Prabhupada, like the devottees I met in UK who's classes were very inspiring. Since my question I have been given the contacts of some people who are direct disciples of Narayan Maharaja in America. I have heard that there are more and will look into that. This was the only website I found that I thought could answer me that.

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Thankyou everybody for the instructions. I did not mean my simple question to turn into a conversation about institutionalism but that seems to be something that is on everybody's mind. I thought that this was a website that was not from ISKCON and therefore asked how to find Narayan Maharaja followers in America who were not followers of Prabhupada, like the devottees I met in UK who's classes were very inspiring. Since my question I have been given the contacts of some people who are direct disciples of Narayan Maharaja in America. I have heard that there are more and will look into that. This was the only website I found that I thought could answer me that.

 

I'm shocked that it hasn't been asked yet, but why exactly is it that you don't like the writings of Srila Prabhupada?

 

It is my understanding that Narayana Maharaj uses the Srimad Bhagavatam and Chaitanya Caritamrta of Srila Prabhupada. These scriptures are essential to one's progression beyond the neophyte stage.

 

It is not simply a matter of 'books', it is a matter of Sastra, scripture. You like Narayana Maharaj and the books he has written, but he also uses the translations of Srila Prabhupada, so why are you inimical to them?

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The style of writing does not appeal to me and some of the things written in the purports as well.

 

SNM does not read his books for his own personal reading. He sometimes reads from them when he is on world tour giving a class because there is no other version in English that he knows of and the majority of the audience is from ISKCON anyway and that is what they want and expect, I guess. That I saw when I went to the festival in UK. None of the Indian devottees read his books for their own reading, so I was told by the UK devottees. They all read books in their own languages.

 

This is one of the differences between the Indians and the western devottees in his sanga. As well as between his direct disciples and those who are from ISKCON. The UK devottees feel it is a natural split.

 

Nobody should be hurt. Everybody has different style, mood, thinking.

You like some books I don't and probably will not like some books that I do. It's normal. I did not mean this to become about ISKCON or Prabhupada or his books. I just asked if anyone knew some direct disciples not from ISKCON. Sorry.

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Ian, your point that "Everybody has different style, mood, thinking." is certainly valid. Our point is only that you are wanting to follow SNM and he is utilizing and recommending certain of Prabhupad's books and he considers them to be authentic shastra. Therefore if you accept SNM then you should also accept his recommendations for shastric resources.

Regards, jeffster/AMd

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Ian, you might try areas like Badger, CA, or some of Srila Narayana Maharaja's other, more saturated communities. I have heard they have a temple in Los Angeles as well. While I think you are a little miseducated as to the ontological position of ISKCON and GVS in the regards to disciples previously exposed to ISKCON, you'll find there are differences in groups among his following. Some do eliminate versions from Srila Prabhupada and are more educated in other Gaudiya Vaishnava works which Srila Prabhupada chose to not translate, and others attempt a "harmony" with Srila Prabhupada's presentation. I understand that you aren't looking for this "harmony" and are searching for a presentation of philosophy which is isolated from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, or perhaps one that doesn't stress the angles approached by Srila Prabhupada. Good luck with your search. If I can help more let me know.

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He recommends reading CC and SB. There are others of those available in english now though not as widespread as ISKCON's versions. The devottees in UK read those. I don't have a taste for Prabhupada's purports.

I will stop writing here because I don't want to offend anyone. I received information about some direct disciples of SNM in America. A few ladies and ex-sanyasis who are supposed to be very learned and advanced and wonderful speakers so I will try to contact them. That is all I wanted. I did not want to turn it into a debate on the merits or demerits of a particular commentator of devotional literature. Please forgive me for unintended offense. I want to bow to all devottees, big and small. Haribol.

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As you like, Ian. And I hope that I have not offended you, although I am a coarse oaf with no understanding. But please be careful to stay above the mental plane of acceptance and rejection.

jeffster/AMd

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The style of writing does not appeal to me and some of the things written in the purports as well.

 

SNM does not read his books for his own personal reading. He sometimes reads from them when he is on world tour giving a class because there is no other version in English that he knows of and the majority of the audience is from ISKCON anyway and that is what they want and expect, I guess. That I saw when I went to the festival in UK. None of the Indian devottees read his books for their own reading, so I was told by the UK devottees. They all read books in their own languages.

 

This is one of the differences between the Indians and the western devottees in his sanga. As well as between his direct disciples and those who are from ISKCON. The UK devottees feel it is a natural split.

 

Nobody should be hurt. Everybody has different style, mood, thinking.

You like some books I don't and probably will not like some books that I do. It's normal. I did not mean this to become about ISKCON or Prabhupada or his books. I just asked if anyone knew some direct disciples not from ISKCON. Sorry.

 

That's fair enough, as long as you understand the importance of the Bhagavatam and the Chaitanya Caritamrta.

 

I don't know what is taught in Narayana Maharaj circles about the relationship with Iskcon, but I know Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math teach that their activities are supplementary and not independant. Is this also the case for Narayana Maharaj?

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He recommends reading CC and SB. There are others of those available in english now though not as widespread as ISKCON's versions. The devottees in UK read those. I don't have a taste for Prabhupada's purports.

I will stop writing here because I don't want to offend anyone. I received information about some direct disciples of SNM in America. A few ladies and ex-sanyasis who are supposed to be very learned and advanced and wonderful speakers so I will try to contact them. That is all I wanted. I did not want to turn it into a debate on the merits or demerits of a particular commentator of devotional literature. Please forgive me for unintended offense. I want to bow to all devottees, big and small. Haribol.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaj is a bona fide Guru in a bona fide sampradaya, so really it's all good.

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I was wanting to ask the same question Haridas das asked, but I knew that I would have worded it more coarsely, and affected adversely someone's creeper. Haridas das has phrased it well.

jeffster/AMd

 

Yes, that occurred to me. It was a difficult question to ask actually, I don't like to offend people, and I've met some really nice Narayana Maharaj devotees, I wouldn't want to offend them either.

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None of the Indian devottees read his books for their own reading, so I was told ...

 

1] Ian, you've not made any offense to anyone.

 

I don't have a taste for Prabhupada's purports. ...

 

2] Ian, you simply made a statement that, 'Scared the hell out of everyone'.

 

Over the years --a devotee compiles mental notes of his/her lifes' experiences from which to see "sastra" --and Ian, you created a "thought" that has heretofore been un-coined.

 

A new file has had to be formed to contain such a "confounding concept" --I'm afraid others have been overly tactfull while withholding their gasps.

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I don't have a taste for Prabhupada's purports.

 

 

Why Prabhupada's purports? Did Prabhupada write his own purports? Since Prabhupada quoted from so many Vaishnava sources how one can say these are all Prabhupada's purports? Prabhupada also presented so many original quotes by previous acaryas, is this also to be rejected when someone finds out, "I don't have a taste for Prabhupada's purports"?

 

Prabhupada: Oh, thank you. You have read some of my books?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: They are not my books. I am simply translating. They are written by Vyasadeva, the original Vedic scholar. So there are now many secular states. Our Vedic idea of secular state is the government must be responsible of proper execution of religious system. It doesn’t matter whether one is Hindu or one is Christian, one is Mohammedan or Buddhist. It doesn’t matter. But it is a government duty to see that one who is professing as Hindu whether he’s executing the Hindu principles of religion properly. That is government. Just like government gives license to so many businesses. One man is selling liquor, wine, government issues license. So the government inspector, excise inspector, goes and sees that the man is doing business according to the license. Government should not be callous that “You may go on with your so-called religion, we don’t care for it.” No. That is not government. Government’s duty is to see, just like for example, Christians, their commandment, first commandment is, “Thou shalt not kill.” It is the government’s duty to see that anyone who is professing Christian, “Why he’s killing?” Immediately he should be punished that “You are professing as Christian and you are killing.” This is government. Similarly, Buddhist religion also, ahiṁsa. Ahiṁsa paramaṁ buddhiḥ. The government duty should see. And the ultimate test of first-class religion is: the follower has developed love of God. If he does not know anything about God, or if he has not developed love of God, then he has simply wasted time. It may be any religion. That is ultimate test because religion means, it has got relationship with God. Otherwise what is the meaning of religion? Any religion, it doesn’t matter. The process should be quest of God. What is God? What is Absolute Truth? Wherefrom everything has come? What is we… what we are? What is our relationship with God? This science. Religion means this science. In the Vedānta-sūtra, it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, what is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? If simply eating, sleeping, and sex life, and defend is the business of human life, then these things are there in the animal life also. They also eat. They also sleep. They have also sex life, and they also defend according to their capacity. We defend with atomic bomb and they defend their own nails and claws. The different spirit is there. So that is not the aim of human life. The aim of human life—this opportunity’s given by nature to have a human form of life—is to understand God. Nobody can deny—unless he is a crazy fellow—the existence of God. That is not possible. There must be. I may know it or not know it, it doesn’t matter. Therefore religion means to understand God and to awaken your dormant love for God. This is religion. Now there may be difference of process, according to country, time, people. Therefore, it is the duty of the government, it is the duty of the government… Hare Kṛṣṇa (someone enters). Formerly the kings, they were regularly supervising that their citizens were properly executing religious culture. That was government’s duty. Catur-varṇyaṁ maya sristam guṇa-karma- vibhagasaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. So now government is callous about religion. I’m very glad to know that your government has left some department to supervise. What is your function in this department?

 

 

Room Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

February 26, 1973, Jakarta

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But please at least save some space in your heart to love our dear Srila Prabhupad, even if you don't read his books. He sacrificed so much for us, and it hurts us to hear this.

jeffster/AMd

If Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had not come to the West and preached in very successful way, then how would anyone except maybe a handful of persons know about Caitanya bhakti in places like America, Austrailia and Europe? Could we assume that we would be in that handful of persons? How unlikely! So everyone in the West or non-Vedic regions like Japan, Russia and Hong Kong etc. can trace their good fortune to Srila Prabhupada's sacrifice to follow his guru's order and come to the Western world with just a few dollars and a few books by sailing for weeks on an old Indian freighter and all at nearly 70 years of age! Materialistic devotees within Iskcon have pushed Srila Prabhupada as the only real successor to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and Iskcon as the only authentic Gaudiya Vaisnava institution. Now and for some time the reaction to this extremism has visited us as some kind of irrational anti-Prabhupada phobia. Reaction to illusion is another illusion. How could that be favorable for bhakti? Illusion is illusion and Reality is Reality, no matter what form it comes in.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja in Sri Guru and His Grace states:

 

And if the truth is found in a substantial way somewhere else, that should be accepted. Wherever there is devotion and the correct consideration about Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, our guru is there. Who is our guru? He is not to be found in the physical form; our guru is to be traced wherever we find the embodiment of the pure thought and understanding which Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu irnparted to save us.
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Hare Krishna

 

My story goes like this. A few years ago while travelling in UK and Europe I got introduced to Krishna consciousness by a disciple of Narayan Maharaja and was very interested in it. I saw references in some of the books to Srila Prabhupada and when I arrived in cities with ISKCON temples I would go to the Sunday Feast. I read some ISKCON books and was not at all attracted. When back in the UK I hooked up again with those disciples of Narayan Maharaja and felt happy. They invited me to the next festival when Narayan Maharaja would be there. I came and was disappointed to find it much like when I went to ISKCON and they even read from some ISKCON books during classes. I explained my disappointment to my original friends who said that they too were disappointed at the ISKCONIZATION of their sanga and that it didn't use to be like this. They said that there will be a split in the sanga between the disciples of Narayan Maharaja who want to make things the way they used to be and the followers of Narayan Maharaja who are from ISKCON. In the meantime I was encouraged to attend some classes by direct disciples of Narayan Maharaja but not the classes given by his followers who were from ISKCON. They were good. But out of curiosity I attended one class by an ex ISKCON follower and he was taking everything from Prabhupada's books and I didn't feel it was right because I had already decided that I did not like the ISKCON approach to Krishna consciousness when I had attended the Sunday Feasts and read their books in Europe.

 

Now I don't know what to do because I'm back in America and want to be a Narayan Maharaja follower but not an ISKCON apologist and it seems that many of his followers in America are ex ISKCON devottees and still have attachment to it or force you to read ISKCON books. Are there any devottees on here who can guide me as to what to do or guide me to any original disciples of Narayan Maharaja in America?

I found that all quite distasteful. To not be attracted to Prabhupada's books means to not be attracted to Krsna. It's all simply arrogance. SNM will tell you that himself.

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I found that all quite distasteful. To not be attracted to Prabhupada's books means to not be attracted to Krsna. It's all simply arrogance. SNM will tell you that himself.
Sounds like you know better than your Guru, maybe you can also start your own math. You can call it Only-very-good-Krishna-katha-sanga
But please at least save some space in your heart to love our dear Srila Prabhupad, even if you don't read his books. He sacrificed so much for us, and it hurts us to hear this.
There are more I can quote. But this serves my purpose. You might all be right with regards to Ian, but all these responses to him were simply uncalled for. He asked something directly and clearly, which would warrant a response or lack of one. I can assure you we come off arrogant and condescending by responding as above. Perhaps we do have more in common with "bible thumpers" than eastern spiritualists. :crazy::smash: Jeffster, your's was difficult to pick since you were actually very thoughtful in your responses.

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Hello Narasingh,

Yes, to have exactly the correct response is extremely difficult. I was actually thinking of starting a post about this, but I feel somewhat removed from this forum by virtue of its being internet only. There is no face-to-face tangible association, no prasadam, no kirtan, only this remote form of interaction. It is a little dry and it is easy to hide behind a facade of anonymity. I never did get to actually see Srila Prabhupad in person (isn't that called vapi ?), but in 1986 I travelled for the first time to India for parikram and did manage to sit about 3 or 4 meters away from Srila Sridhara Maharaj and hear him on several occasions. I didn't speak with him personally because I didn't feel that it would have been my place to do so under the circumstances, and I am somewhat shy anyway. Normally, during the course of human interaction, a person either says or does or says and does something inappropriate, but I never saw that in Sridhara Maharaja. His every word and gesture always seemed timely and appropriate. As for the rest of us, we are not always so timely and appropriate. So perhaps our reactions to Mr. Ian may not have been spot on. But we simply didn't feel that Mr. Ian's apparent lack of respect for Prabhupad as a mere "commentator" was appropriate either, especially not for us, many of whom are Prabhupad's disciples. We certainly cannot legislate how other people feel about Prabhupad, but they also may want to consider how their statements affect others like us who are not only favorable to Prabhupad but also eternally indebted to him.

 

But, in general, your point about bible-thumpers is likely warranted. I have been writing a book, and I come up against this issue all the time. How to present Bhagavat philosophy that doesn't sound like hell-fire and brimstone is quite an art, but I am becoming convinced that if we attempt to be too accomodating (sp) to modernists, then something is lost. Yet, at the same time, we must present forceful arguments without seeming too stern.

 

Regards, jeffster/AMd

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How to present Bhagavat philosophy that doesn't sound like hell-fire and brimstone is quite an art, but I am becoming convinced that if we attempt to be too accomodating (sp) to modernists, then something is lost. jeffster

 

yeah jeff (good post)...a fine balance is in call...srila br sridhara maharaja gave the call -

 

'harmonize'.

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Well, sir, I reckon that that's a whole 'nuther issue. Since they feel such a need to alter Prabhupad, for, shall we say less than completely pure reasons, usually something to do with establishing authority, often their own, and since some of them have gone back to skool to git their PHDs, ostensibly for preaching purposes, and since Prabhupad said that PHD means "plow department," therefore they should be happy to start rural agrarian ashrams, if for nothing else than survival purposes, as the cities WILL fall, and there may no longer be a place to "pick." Their gurus should man the plows for awhile to set a good example for the rank and file and to practice what they preach by example - PHD - plow department. See ya'all on the farms !! Actually, I'd be stoked to go.

jeffster/AMd

Dang it, now I've done and gone off topic.

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