So who is this person

[theist 1]

Why does this Gosvami not mention Krishna even one time in his article? A little too PC for me.

 

 

 

Things Change; Avoid Silly Controversy

 

by Ramachandra Goswami

Posted June 15, 2008

Times have changed. Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami was born and grew up in an age in Bengal which could almost have been a different planet than today's modern India. When I was first in India 30 years ago, to see an Indian girl in western dress was unusual. Unmarried girls wore salwar kurta, and married women wore saris, unless they were Muslims or were from the northern states. The ladies of Prabhupada's era wore the Bengali style of sari, which is very modest.

I remember that in Vrindavan 30 years ago brahmin women would wrap a white shawl over their saris if they went out -- even in summer. Today in the big cities the sari is dying, and unmarried girls parade in jeans and shirts. To see the old ways vanishing in the name of modernism and women's rights is perhaps sad for some, but it is the way of ongoing kali-yuga. It is an interesting irony that nowadays in India only the Muslims seem to follow the old ways of female modesty and gender segregation that had been a part of Indian culture.

An old friend of mine, a working woman from Delhi, was talking to me about the sad demise of the sari. If you are working, commuting and earning a living in today's fast-track India, a flowing, modest sari, beautiful though it may be, is just too difficult to do anything in. Female modesty has more or less disappeared from India; was it ever there in ISKCON? Well, it is not easy for western females to gain a modest mindset when they have grown up in a world that teaches that modesty in body or mind is a weakness. Of corse, we must appeal to all Vaishnava women never to confuse modesty with weakness.

Undoubtedly, women in india have been oppressed for millennia; this is undeniable. In the name of Vedic or Hindu culture, women have been exploited; this is not even debatable. One who has spent a lifetime in India, as I have done, will know the truth, but perhaps we should not, in the name of freedom and human rights, throw out the baby with the bath water. We must also accept a new reality.

Do we want to go back to 19th century Bengal? While women "knew their place," they were slaves, for sure, and no Hindu, whether Vaishnava or Shaivate, would even touch a Westerner unless there were water for purification. Hindus and Muslims were slaughtering each other; if you were "negro," you were not even considered human; and if you were "lower caste," you were actually untouchable -- so things have changed.

It is depressing that the real problems facing us and the world are never discussed. I think we should be more concerned about saving our planet and stopping an evil, bloody war in iraq (where some Vaishnavas are actually serving) than getting worked up about non-issues such as so-called "evil gays and feminists" taking over the world. There will always be women, and there wil always be people who are sexually attracted to the same gender (from birth, by the way). Rather than demonising differences, we should accept new realities and compromise to live together despite differences.

[liselina 0]

 

It is depressing that the real problems facing us and the world are never discussed. I think we should be more concerned about saving our planet and stopping an evil, bloody war in iraq (where some Vaishnavas are actually serving) than getting worked up about non-issues such as so-called "evil gays and feminists" taking over the world. There will always be women, and there wil always be people who are sexually attracted to the same gender (from birth, by the way). Rather than demonising differences, we should accept new realities and compromise to live together despite differences.

 

Is this too PC? You can sign me up.

 

When will we learn (myself included) that allowing peace (substitute God, Krishna etc..) to flourish in our own hearts and minds can be our primary aim. And by extension bringing peace to our global community, especially those places most desperate for it. War is a human condition that firstly exists in the mind. Unfortunatly for many men, women, and children, it also ends up killing them. Let us pray for 'akarma' or 'delivery from evil' or what have you.

 

P.S. Must a message be stamped with the Lords name to be worth considering?

 

In that case, for good measure, Hare Krishna!

 

Namaste

[tackleberry 1]

Why is it so important to mention Krishna's name? Jesus never did, but he's considered vaishnava. So I don't see what the problem is.

[Amlesh 1]

 

Why is it so important to mention Krishna's name? Jesus never did, but he's considered vaishnava. So I don't see what the problem is.

 

He didn't take the name of Jesus but that of S Prabhupada.

 

And SP did reveal Krishna's name. When all the lines that SP wrote were attached by the Lord's name, I understand that whenever taking the name of SP, whether relating some stories about him or quoting from Him, it should be linked with Krishna.

 

As simple as that.

[cbrahma 0]

Yet this indiividual calls himself goswami. He is just spouting platitudes, all material. According to Prabhupada, humanistic philanthropy is a fall down.

 

 

Pusta Krsna: Question fourteen. "It is said that the karma-kanda in the Vedas has almost gone out of use, except for a few rites which remain in vogue for marriage, sraddhas, etc. Is it advisable to revive the karma-kanda with its stress on the performance of various yajnas?"

Prabhupada: So that is not possible in this... Taking consideration of the time, circumstances, it is not possible. There are different kinds of karma-kandiya-yajna. It is expensive also and there is no expert brahmana to guide how to perform this yajna. So Kali-yuga, it is not possible to perform yajnas. Krte yad dhyayato visnum tretayam yajato makhaih [sB 12.3.52]. In the Treta-yuga yajnas were possible. Dvapare paricaryayam kalau tad dhari-kirtanat, that in this age of Kali-yuga the real yajna is hari-kirtana. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasah [sB 11.5.32]. Therefore those who are intelligent, having good brain substance, they take to this yajna, sankirtana-yajna. And practically we are experiencing, simply by sankirtana-yajna, even the lowest person in the sinful activities, he is becoming purified. So karma-kanda is, to revive them in this age is not possible. Neither jnana-kanda. That is also not possible. People are so fool and rascal that it is impossible. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura said... He has condemned karma-kanda, jnana-kanda. Even it is properly done. Karma-kanda, by performing ritualistic ceremonies of karma-kanda, you can go to the heavenly planet. But what is the benefit there? You can enjoy there materialistic way of life in higher standard. That's all. You can live for a very, very long duration of period. But that does not mean that you become immortal. The demigods, they are called amara. Amara means they have got very long duration of life. Does not mean he is immortal. So by karma-kanda you can elevate yourself to the higher planetary system. Even it is properly done... And now it is not possible to do it properly. And even it is properly done, that is condemned. It is not required. Similarly jnana-kanda. Even it is properly done... You can merge yourself into the Brahman effulgence. But that is also not safe because in the sastra we see that aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah [sB 10.2.32]. Even one merges oneself into the impersonal Brahman, he again falls down. Patanty adhah. We have seen practical, in India many sannyasis, they elevate themselves by jnana-kanda, but because they cannot stay, they again come to the karma-kanda, philanthropy activities and hospitals and schools. That is their fall down. So either in karma-kanda or jnana-kanda you cannot achieve the real purpose of life. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura has said, karma-kanda jnana-kanda sakali visera bandha. Either you accept karma-kanda or jnana-kanda, they're different pots of poison. Amrta boliya jeba khai. If by mistake you take poison, death is inevitable. Similarly, by karma-kanda, jnana-kanda nobody can derive any actual benefit. By upasana-kanda, that is the... The Vedas, Vedic ritualistic ceremony means there are three kandas: karma-kanda, jnana-kanda, and upasana-kanda. So upasana-kanda, there are recommendation of many, worship of many demigods. But the best upasana is Visnupasana. Visnor aradhanam sarvesam. Visnor aradhanam param. Om tad visnum paramam padam. There are different types of upasana recommendation, but the visnor aradhanam, worshiping Lord Visnu, that is the Supreme. That is Supreme. So gradually, there is elevation to karma-kanda, jnana-kanda, upasana-kanda, but in the Kali-yuga all these things are not possible to revive. Best directly give him the best upasana-kanda, Visnupasana, bhakti, everything will be automatically achieved by bhakti-marga.

 

So some mention of Visnu, Krsna must be there, if one is a real goswami. Also, to all traditional 'Vedic' Hindus , please note - in the Kali-yuga all these things are not possible to revive.

[tackleberry 1]

Maybe, this goswami is more like Jesus, he's so exalted a devotee that he doesn't need to utter Krishna's name. Why make an issue out of a non-issue, it's such a trivial matter at any rate.

[Bishadi 0]

and as knowledge is understood all rituals of the various beliefs will cease

 

comprehending life is the pinnacle of understanding in which each can walk with knowledge to act or cause any action in each experience with perfect good

 

rituals are not in honor of existence but of honor to a belief

 

and the scary part is to realize that a born person such as Jesus and the son of Devaki are being considered God (Vishnu)

[bhaktajan 0]

 

Maybe, this goswami is more like Jesus, he's so exalted a devotee that he doesn't need to utter Krishna's name. Why make an issue out of a non-issue, it's such a trivial matter at any rate.

 

 

Now the mass has ended,

go in peace, Amen.

 

HEY YOU, WHAT'S YOUR NAME!!! --WHAT SUPREME DOPEY-NESS.

 

Have we no absolute thought out there?

 

If Krishna is not absolute [look it up and contemplate the word!!!],

then Jesus is NOT-ABSOLUTE.

[Bishadi 0]

 

Have we no absolute thought out there?

At each choice (experience) you have what you learned combined with your integrity.

 

So to view an opinion and be absolutely honest with the reality of that understanding, then the truth lives with God (Vishnu) and you.

 

if a doubt is there; the truth is 'find out' rather than stay in the clouds (return to a complacent representation).... this point of choice is inert and each back peddle is simply a negative by choice

 

Yet to be in truth, seeking, then to become enlightened to the reality, and then convey with no need of self and no requisite to regress to an unknown as fact, then good is reached in Vishnu (krsna conscious) as then it conveys upon existence

 

Then to represent that opinion in a method that can be universally acknowledged, not neccessarily believed as 'clouds' may be in the air but at least observed; then you contribute good.

 

You live in your contributions to existence.

 

for example, see below

 

If Krishna is not absolute,

then Jesus is NOT-ABSOLUTE.

 

Seems no man ever to walk on earth was perfect but each are still alive in our minds by the knowledge they contributed to the collective (conscious)

 

way to go

 

an observed truth as well the gift of understanding based on your cause (even if unknowingly)

 

'hold in' that defense and allow the apology to be accepted by giving life to your words

[theist 1]

.

[theist 1]

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Gosvami

It is depressing that the real problems facing us and the world are never discussed. I think we should be more concerned about saving our planet and stopping an evil, bloody war in iraq (where some Vaishnavas are actually serving) than getting worked up about non-issues such as so-called "evil gays and feminists" taking over the world. There will always be women, and there wil always be people who are sexually attracted to the same gender (from birth, by the way). Rather than demonising differences, we should accept new realities and compromise to live together despite differences.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Is this too PC? You can sign me up.

 

When will we learn (myself included) that allowing peace (substitute God, Krishna etc..) to flourish in our own hearts and minds can be our primary aim. And by extension bringing peace to our global community, especially those places most desperate for it. War is a human condition that firstly exists in the mind. Unfortunatly for many men, women, and children, it also ends up killing them. Let us pray for 'akarma' or 'delivery from evil' or what have you.

 

P.S. Must a message be stamped with the Lords name to be worth considering?

 

In that case, for good measure, Hare Krishna!

 

Namaste

 

 

Okay you are signed up and are entitled to your mind's opinion. A Gosvami should only be expressing opinions from a Krishna conscious viewpoint.

 

In his statement above he belittles devotees in the military who are serving in Iraq. The devotee in question has been spreading Krishna consciousness right in the middle of that hellish situation, distributing books, teaching japa meditation, holding class and even aRatha-yatra last year . If a devotee goes to hell and tries to liberate the inhabitants should he be criticized for being in hell? NO. He is a Krishna conscious hero irregardless on which side of the battle he is on.

 

In Kurukshetra there were foot soldiers on both sides of the fight but they were all liberated because they were conscious of the presence of Krishna on the battlefield. The foot soldiers on both sides were following their dharma as fighting men. Krishna told Arjuna to not sherk his duty and to also fight but not for any fruitive result. Rather he was instructed on how to fight in the proper consciousness.

 

Concerning not being worried about the change of tradtions concerning woman I agree with his position. But mundane feminism is not just that. How about their stance on abortion?

 

Concerning homosexuality he is way off base. Just because this is kali-yuga does not mean all types of behavior are welcome in devotee association. Homosexuality is demonic. It has no place and should not be tolerated. Now homosexuals can chant and attend kirtan and functions just like everybody else but devotees in line from Srila Prabhupada cannot recognize their "marriages" or pretend their behavior is Ok.

 

Drug addicts can also chant but drug taking cannot be condoned or ignored in devotee association. It is the same thing.

 

My comment on the name of Krishna not appearing once was a refferrence to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta once mentioning that the more Krishna's name appear in an article the better that article was. Everything they say must in some way directly point to Krishna.

 

This article sounds like it was written from a mundane left leaning social perspective and nothing more.

 

Hare Krishna

[bhaktajan 0]

Originally Posted by theist:

My comment on the name of Krishna not appearing once was a refferrence to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta once mentioning that the more Krishna's name appear in an article the better that article was. Everything they say must in some way directly point to Krishna.

 

 

This is called bhakti-yoga.

[Amlesh 1]

 

Maybe, this goswami is more like Jesus, he's so exalted a devotee that he doesn't need to utter Krishna's name. Why make an issue out of a non-issue, it's such a trivial matter at any rate.

 

taking or not taking the Lord's name is not a matter of the degree of exaltedness but that of time factor. If I'm taking the name of Jesus, I should take into consideration what his student has learnt and accordingly deploy my words. Likewise, the Student of SP knows the name of Krishna, accordingly the name of Krishna should be associated.

 

Otherwise, the meaning conveyed by our saying will be detrimental for the first instance and incomplete in the second.

[Amlesh 1]

 

and as knowledge is understood all rituals of the various beliefs will cease

 

comprehending life is the pinnacle of understanding in which each can walk with knowledge to act or cause any action in each experience with perfect good

 

rituals are not in honor of existence but of honor to a belief

 

and the scary part is to realize that a born person such as Jesus and the son of Devaki are being considered God (Vishnu)

 

you like the evolution process, be it knowledge or body.

 

My dear cat, it will take a huge amount of time if you continue in this process to become one day a lion. It is not me who says so, but the theory of evolution.

 

Truth does not depend on evolution, it is eternal and changeless.

 

But personally, I still like to hear from you, in a temporary and short run basis, your views do outline important points which we can deal with our eternal and already existing knowledge [bhagvata Doctrine].

[Bishadi 0]

 

you like the evolution process, be it knowledge or body.

 

My dear cat, it will take a huge amount of time if you continue in this process to become one day a lion. It is not me who says so, but the theory of evolution.

Did you read Origin of Species? Ever note that 'theory' has no frame of physics prepared by darwim. Meaning he represented what he recognized as a pattern but did not describe into math, the process in a physics form.

 

Almost like how a religion defines life but not the comprehension of how the cells each play a part and how metabolisms keep our bodies 'alive.'

 

 

Truth does not depend on evolution, it is eternal and changeless.

Just like nature; existing well beyond the period that man began words to stone, papyrus, paper and then computer screen.

 

As nature has existed beyond man's written words; the truth has also. But that knowledge is evolving in the presence of existence (God) over time.

 

As the teacher shares to the student, the student combines more knowledge to become the next teacher.

 

 

But personally, I still like to hear from you, in a temporary and short run basis, your views do outline important points which we can deal with our eternal and already existing knowledge [bhagvata Doctrine].

 

The purpose of interacting in such as we are of purposed to combine knowledge so a progression can be put to words for the evolution of knowledge 'to continue' ........ the life of Understanding!

 

Not here to debate! Simply to leave a trail of 'good' and continue the journey. When the time is correct, then the rest will unfold.

 

Do you have faith in GOOD? Then know, there is purpose, find the lesson.

[Amlesh 1]

 

Did you read Origin of Species? Ever note that 'theory' has no frame of physics prepared by darwim. Meaning he represented what he recognized as a pattern but did not describe into math, the process in a physics form.

 

Almost like how a religion defines life but not the comprehension of how the cells each play a part and how metabolisms keep our bodies 'alive.'

 

Just like nature; existing well beyond the period that man began words to stone, papyrus, paper and then computer screen.

 

As nature has existed beyond man's written words; the truth has also. But that knowledge is evolving in the presence of existence (God) over time.

 

As the teacher shares to the student, the student combines more knowledge to become the next teacher.

 

 

 

The purpose of interacting in such as we are of purposed to combine knowledge so a progression can be put to words for the evolution of knowledge 'to continue' ........ the life of Understanding!

 

Not here to debate! Simply to leave a trail of 'good' and continue the journey. When the time is correct, then the rest will unfold.

 

Do you have faith in GOOD? Then know, there is purpose, find the lesson.

 

No, I did not read much about Darwin, but I've heard about him.

 

Concerning nature, it is ever existing and it is not whole truth but part of truth. It is something that even dumbo can sense.

 

the theory of evolution was spoken well before Darwin said it. It is Gita who proclaimed, "The physical world is ever permutable" and the spirit is ever changeless.

 

When you come here, speak something new dude. Or if the issue is old then give credit to Krishna not to the Darwin, whose theory will be baffled in years to come by some new Dumbo.

 

concerning master and student stuff, I appreciate your view which is beautiful, but reality is something else. Never is a time that a student can surpass his master. If the student believe so, he is no longer worthy for any credit.

 

the reason is simple, if we think like that, he have already doubted the credibility of our Guru.

 

I don't have faith in Good, it is an element for binding me to the material world. And i don't like the word faith.

 

I want to rise above that also. To the stage of Nirguna.

 

Now you try to understand the Nirguna stage above Satva Guna.

 

Gita was spoken, many many years ago, has anyone been able to add something new in that Divine song. So how can one try to make a better Truth.

 

I never neglect material nature, because I know its Source, That Supreme Brahman, Our dear krishna.

[jeffster 0]

The original post by Ramachandra Gosvami was, I believe, posted on a devotee web sight, not a forum actually - your posts all must be approved by the moderator - that is favorable to openly feminist women devotees as well as gay devotees. Please don't misunderstand me. I believe that gay devotees should be part of the congregation. However, I had a couple of exchanges on the site with Amara das, a homosexual devotee, who, incidentally, is a sincere devotee, but my last refutation of his obvious gay pride was never put on the site, thus making it appear that gayness had won the day. I am not sure if I am allowed to post the name of that other website here; I already have forum trauma and am a little reluctant to be too open about this. However, if anyone is interested in my refutation of gay devotee pride, I will be happy to repost it here for you.

Pranams, AMd

[Bishadi 0]

 

No, I did not read much about ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com Then to take second hand opinion without reading the words of the compassionate contribution and assimilating an opposition without observing the characteristics of the progress is rude.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = ' alt='blockquote> Then to take second hand opinion without reading the words of the compassionate contribution and assimilating an opposition without observing the characteristics of the progress is rude.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = '>

 

And as dumbo lives in peace with existence; mankind is still abusive and capable of misconduct, dumbo is not. Let’s give a hand to dumbo for remaining true to existence.

And Thoth suggested Light is life, well before most … does that mean GE must give up the patents.

Perhaps Gita was describing what is true, that the progress of ‘evolution’ is true; why can’t you? Who knows maybe <st1:City><st1:place>Darwin</st1:place></st1:City> was a closet case Gita man and was picking up where the old teachers left off. Are you denying what both Gita and Darwin suggest; evolution is real and a description of a process within Vishnu; kind of Brahma ish… the process of good!

Who was here first Vishnu or Krshna?

As well who is more honest to represent truth, dumbo or you? Maybe dumbo should be our world hero. As it seems best to honor the integrity of life and that ability of nature to reveal pure truths rather than people who can get upset (emotional) because their faith is being revealed as ankle deep. And that comment is not about the ill regard of a teacher but of them who follow with zero intent of developing truth and summarize for the next generation to evolve a little more than the previous; a selfish arrogance based on faith.

Then why speak of Prabhupada when Bhaktivinoda Thakura was his guru…? Did Srila Prabhupada exceed the works and books as well increase the attrition well beyond Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Answer simply yes or no. Now do you wish to restate your line; as it is found a fib? And what would make your mind so clouded as to fib other than an emotion of the self?

The guru should never put another in a position to oppress the student of the goal of linear achievements in knowledge.

( I want my child to be better off and experience life without having to fall into the holes I did.)

The teacher fails if the student is less than……….. Do you see the error in the logic you presented? And then realize others may have seen and been damaged, all because of ‘self.’

Then why follow a master? Why read words? Why the heck are you breathing if good has no meaning? ‘good: supports life…..’ ‘bad; loss to the common’………. Follow the mind of self and which lives by your choice?

Do you wish to learn even from others words?

 

From the above the statement that the worshippers of the unmanifest also reach Him it is impossible to equate the worship of the Unmanifest with the Nirguna Brahma. How could the worshippers of Nirguna Brahma attain Sri Krishna who is Saguna Brahma? Advaita philosophy does not accept the attainment of Saguna as the consummation of the worship of Nirguna Brahma; the one who pursues the Nirguna path, attains Brahma Himself. Thus when we examine the fruit of the worship of the Unmanifest and see the superior place given to the worship of the Lord as Manifest as against the pursuit of the Unmanifest, it is clear that what is referred to in this context is not the Saguna and Nirguna aspects of the Supreme Lord but the worship of Sri Lakshmi and the Lord Himself.

Meaning each must evolve in bother mind and spirit but without combining both in knowledge; your doomed!

By honoring more than one face of Vishnu to understand and then represent the truth

Perhaps maybe return the teachings for a better understanding?

Since we know Darwin is also within the ‘source’ as you put it, then to give of self, without needs of, to contribute, without need of, to transcend beliefs and the idealism of his own peers and religious order; simply for the intent of ‘good’…..

is that ‘Godhead’ in the flesh or Brahman; yet you never even give the book and works a chance… simply because of another’s opinion that it is against your belief…..

never say never; especially when your integrity is on the line.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Start with honesty and share what has been learned rather than repeat or mirror what another said without comprehending what it meant.

 

does that answer your question?

[Bishadi 0]

 

No, I did not read much about ffice:smarttags" />

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

And Thoth suggested Light is life, well before most … does that mean GE must give up the patents.

Perhaps Gita was describing what is true, that the progress of ‘evolution’ is true; why can’t you? Who knows maybe <st1:City><st1:place>Darwin</st1:place></st1:City> was a closet case Gita man and was picking up where the old teachers left off. Are you denying what both Gita and Darwin suggest; evolution is real and a description of a process within Vishnu; kind of Brahma ish… the process of good!<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

 

Who was here first Vishnu or Krshna?

As well who is more honest to represent truth, dumbo or you? Maybe dumbo should be our world hero. As it seems best to honor the integrity of life and that ability of nature to reveal pure truths rather than people who can get upset (emotional) because their faith is being revealed as ankle deep. And that comment is not about the ill regard of a teacher but of them who follow with zero intent of developing truth and summarize for the next generation to evolve a little more than the previous; a selfish arrogance based on faith. <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

 

Then why speak of Prabhupada when Bhaktivinoda Thakura was his guru…? Did Srila Prabhupada exceed the works and books as well increase the attrition well beyond Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Answer simply yes or no. Now do you wish to restate your line; as it is found a fib? And what would make your mind so clouded as to fib other than an emotion of the self?

 

 

The guru should never put another in a position to oppress the student of the goal of linear achievements in knowledge.

( I want my child to be better off and experience life without having to fall into the holes I did.)

The teacher fails if the student is less than……….. Do you see the error in the logic you presented? And then realize others may have seen and been damaged, all because of ‘self.’<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

 

Then why follow a master? Why read words? Why the heck are you breathing if good has no meaning? ‘good: supports life…..’ ‘bad; loss to the common’………. Follow the mind of self and which lives by your choice?

 

 

Do you wish to learn even from others words?

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

 

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>From the above the statement that the worshippers of the unmanifest also reach Him it is impossible to equate the worship of the Unmanifest with the Nirguna Brahma. How could the worshippers of Nirguna Brahma attain Sri Krishna who is Saguna Brahma? Advaita philosophy does not accept the attainment of Saguna as the consummation of the worship of Nirguna Brahma; the one who pursues the Nirguna path, attains Brahma Himself. Thus when we examine the fruit of the worship of the Unmanifest and see the superior place given to the worship of the Lord as Manifest as against the pursuit of the Unmanifest, it is clear that what is referred to in this context is not the Saguna and Nirguna aspects of the Supreme Lord but the worship of Sri Lakshmi and the Lord Himself.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Meaning each must evolve in both mind and spirit but without combining both in knowledge; your doomed!<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

 

By honoring more than one face of Vishnu to understand and then represent the truth<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

 

Perhaps maybe return the teachings for a better understanding?

Since we know Darwin is also within the ‘source’ as you put it, then to give of self, without needs of, to contribute, without need of, to transcend beliefs and the idealism of his own peers and religious order; simply for the intent of ‘good’…..

is that ‘Godhead’ in the flesh or Brahman; yet you never even give the book and works a chance… simply because of another’s opinion that it is against your belief…..

never say never; especially when your integrity is on the line.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

In his statement above he belittles devotees in the military who are serving in Iraq. The devotee in question has been spreading Krishna consciousness right in the middle of that hellish situation, distributing books, teaching japa meditation, holding class and even aRatha-yatra last year .

 

yes, we should encourage more devotees to sign up with the US military, so that this stupid and demonic war can go on forever, while we are proud to hold Ratha-yatras in the middle of that insanity... we should also join the chorus of devotees like the GBC Hari Vilas prabhu who claim this war is good for our movement because once Muslims are defeated we can go in there and preach...

 

lets not forget who created that 'hellish situation' in the first place and let's support them by encouraging devotees to risk their lives serving the US war machine... a Swami supporting that position would certainly be considered very Krsna conscious and not swayed by popular opinions...

[theist 1]

 

The original post by Ramachandra Gosvami was, I believe, posted on a devotee web sight, not a forum actually - your posts all must be approved by the moderator - that is favorable to openly feminist women devotees as well as gay devotees. Please don't misunderstand me. I believe that gay devotees should be part of the congregation. However, I had a couple of exchanges on the site with Amara das, a homosexual devotee, who, incidentally, is a sincere devotee, but my last refutation of his obvious gay pride was never put on the site, thus making it appear that gayness had won the day. I am not sure if I am allowed to post the name of that other website here; I already have forum trauma and am a little reluctant to be too open about this. However, if anyone is interested in my refutation of gay devotee pride, I will be happy to repost it here for you.

Pranams, AMd

 

Probably speaking of Chakra. Things are much more opn here. Sometimes I think too open in some areas but thatis part of freedom I speech I guess we can't expect things to go our way all the time.

 

Amara das strikes my as ore of a gay activist than anything else otherwise why is pushing gay pride and marriages on Iskcon where the founder acarya Srila Prabhupada was so adamatly oppose to the same? He directly fights against SP while claiming to be his follower.

 

You can post your opinion freely here. This conversation has been gone over several times but as long as there are those in Iskcon trying to pervert Srila Prabhupada's matha a warning has to be sounded.

[jeffster 0]

Thanks theist for your support. Yes, the postings were on Chakra. I had several email exchanges with Madhusudani dd, who is apparently the moderator. She let me put up 1 or 2 posts, but not the one I will post here below. I am a little heavy and harsh at times, and for that I apologize. I am working on being more noble and inclusive, but Krishna consciousness is a very gradual process for me, so the good qualities manifest very, very slowly, if at all.

 

"A Response to Amara das' article in Chakra.org, "Understanding Gay Devotees" by AM das

 

" I appreciate Amara das' rebuttal of my article, "Response to Amara." His arguments are well-presented and it is plain to see that he is a sincere devotee. However, although his arguments seem logical, there are some basic flaws in his premises, which I will attempt to address here.

Before doing so, however, I would preface my comments by stating that both heterosexual and homosexual devotees are beset with sexual desire. Sex desire is the primary symptom of separateness from Krishna, i.e. mundane selfish desire. So, from a strictly transcendental perspective, there is not a great deal of difference between and heterosexual and homosexual. However, we shall see that in the practice of Krishna consciousness (sadhana-bhakti) there is a fundamental difference which can ultimately lead to either liberation or bondage.

The first flaw in Amara das' logic is that in his article of 17 May, '08, "Gay Vaishnavas Welcome CA Supreme Court Ruling," he waxes enthusiastic over the CA ruling legalizing same-sex marriage. He doesn't mention that this issue will be put to CA voters in the November election and likely overturned by the general populace. What is more disturbing, however, is the fact that he is enthusiastic over the decision of a secular body. My dictionary defines "secular" as "of or relating to the worldly or temporal" and also

"not bound by monastic vows or rules." In older times when there was little or no division of church and state, laws were passed which upheld religious mores. Now, in this age of separation of church and state, laws are passed that promote or at least tolerate sinful activities and sense gratification. More on "sin" later. In other words, in devotee parlance, the secular authorities are in "maya." Why should we listen to them or want to follow their illusory edicts ?

Sorry if my statement that "there is no sanction in any known religious system" wasn't accurate. But even if we accept the fact that some of the world's indigenous religions accommodated homosexuality, should we as Vaishnavas accept this ? Amara das himself said that "Vaishnavas may not agree with these beliefs." What great contributions have any of the indigeneous religions made to the world? What was their standard ? What is the Vaishnava standard ? Compare their standard to the Vaishnava standard and to our sublime goal of cent percent surrender and service to Lord Krishna, and we can see that this is not an acceptable argument for acceptance of homosexuality. If anything, all that these religions could do was sanction activities that they couldn't manage.

I also stand behind my statement that "homosexuality is perhaps a denser form of entanglement (conditioning)." In fact, I shall confidently remove the word "perhaps" altogether. Let's compare apples with apples here. I am not comparing a celibate gay man with a heterosexual rapist. But is is fair to compare a sexually active gay couple with a sexually active heterosexual couple. For the sake of our argument, let us consider that both couples are attempting to become Krishna conscious. Our Vaishnava prohibition is that there is no sex outside of marriage and sex within marriage only for the purpose of procreation. Firstly, the gay couples are prohibited from marriage altogether. Heterosexual devotees can at least legitimize their sex desire through marriage by having children whom they can raise in Krishna consciousness. Homosexuals have no way to legitimize their sexual desire, as it is for sense gratification only. Homosexuality, therefore, falls completely outside of the purview of the householder ashram. In fact, it falls within the category of sinful activity. I define sin as that which is contrary to self and God realization. But perhaps my definition is not valid or bonafide enough; my dictionary defines sin as "1.)an offense against God, 2.) transgression of the law of God, 3.) a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God." Perhaps the fact of nature's arrangement has been lost on homosexual men... The most powerful attraction IS between man and woman and it was designed that way to perpetuate the human race. What is Amara suggesting here ? That we should become gay because it is somehow less entangling than a man/woman relationship ? This is a dangerous argument and subtly promotes values of sinfulness.

I also maintain that these so-called Christian denominations have only succeeded in watering down the principles of bonafide religion in order to increase the numbers in their congregation by allowing non-standard (homosexual) members to marry. I do not believe that Christ would have sanctioned it. Perhaps one of our readers can find a scriptural reference on what Jesus said, if anything, about homosexuality.

Again, after having said all that, I feel that homosexual devotees should certainly be accepted and encouraged as devotees, but never given sanction through marriage. Rather they should maintain a low profile and not let their "gay pride" go to their heads. In the purport to Bhagavad-gita 15.5, Prabhupad states "The surrendering process is described here very nicely. The first qualification is that one should not be deluded by pride." And I would give that same advice to myself or any other practicing Vaishnava. We are all fallen, we are all beset by sex desire and we all have a greater or lesser degree of false pride. With good faith, let us encourage each other to chant Hare Krishna and serve. There is hope for all of us."

 

After having some time to give this article more thought, I also realized that the position of the gay apologists is that they were "born" with the tendency, as if to say, "We can't help it." We all have free will, so somewhere along the journey homosexuals came up with their desire to be gay and it has now fructified so that they were born with this tendency in this life. Since it all has to do with desire, isn't it is time that they began to clean up their desires and get back on track, and not use the excuse that it is an inborn tendency in an attempt to rationalize their gaydom ?

jeffster / AMdas

[theist 1]

Well said AMd. Not at all offensive yet very straightforward.

[jeffster 0]

Thanks again, Theist. I have been trying to write little essays on current events from a Vaishnava perspective. I have essays on race, Buddhism, religious conversions and of course the one posted here on homosexuality.

Pranams, jeffster (AMdas)

[theist 1]

Post them here. Get some feedback.