Is there no free will?

[cbrahma 0]

 

Radhe Radhe

 

The ideas of Shuvu, Tackleberry, and Dark Warrior are in line with the "traditional" Gaudiya Vaishnavas position on this. Other Vedic based school of thoughts are in the same bandwith.

 

It's only the ISKCON/GM who hold to these views, consistent with their fall vada theory.

 

How is 'traditional' Gaudiya distinct from any other Gaudiya Vaisnava? These are strange labels indeed.

 

Vedanta-sutra, which consists of codes revealing the method of understanding Vedic knowledge, is the concise form of all Vedic knowledge. It begins with the words athato brahma-jijnasa: "Now is the time to inquire about the Absolute Truth". The human form of life is especially meant for this purpose, and therefore the Vedanta-sutra very concisely explains the human mission. According to the great dictionary compiler (Kosakara), Hemacandra, Vedanta refers to the purport of the Upanishads and the Brahmana portion of the Vedas.

 

This is not traditional Gaudiya Vaisnavism?

The human form of life is meant to understand the Absolute Truth - to inquire as to one's true identity - sat-cit-ananda vigraha.

How is this consistent with the absence of free will, however minute? (ignore Begggar)

[Beggar 0]

 

...Visvanatha Chakravarti ‘s tika of SB 3.7.10: tatra bhagavatah prstha sthitaya anadyavidyaya tamah svarupaya anadi vaimukhya rupa bhagavat prstha-sthanam jivanam jnanam yallupyate tasya na vastutvam karanam napi prayojanam kim apy asti "Ignorance, which is beginningless, is situated on the Lord's back. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the Lord's back and are non devotees. Their non devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered."

 

Commenting on this verse Bhagavad Gita 13.20 Visvanatha Cakravartipad declares that the conditioning of the conditioned souls is beginningless—mAyA jIvayor api macchaktitvena anAditvAt tayoH saMzleSo'py anAdir iti bhAvaH "Illusion and the conditioned souls are both My energies. They are both beginningless and they have been interconnected since beginningless time as well."

To Paramatma Sandarbha 47 quotation, Satyanarayan das of the Jiva of the Jiva Institute replies:

"The meaning of the words tat-parAGmukhatva doSeNa labdha-chidrayA mAyayA paribhUtaH (ParamAtma Sandarbha, Text 47, ) is that the jiva is covered by mAyA and who sees the defect of non devotion in the jiva. It is important to understand that there is no sequence intended here. Just as it is said that jIvas spring from the Lord, but the jIva and Lord both are aja, unborn, nitya, eternal. How can the jIva spring from the Lord, because that would imply that jivas did not exist once upon a time? The point is that they co-exist as energy and the energetic. Similarly the non devotion of the jiva and MayA's covering him is all simultaneous.

When expressed in words it appears there is a sequence of events. That is the limitation of language in trying to express a reality that in fact has no relation of cause and effect. Sequence is a limitation of language, because words must be spoken or written in some sequence. Thus language has the influence of material time, which has the divisions of past, present and future. As a result language causes concurrent events to appear linear."

(SB 10.51.54) "When the end of this seemingly endless cycle comes in sight, one attains the association of a devotee...."

 

Srila B.V. Prabhupada was initially preaching to an audience that was highly involved in various mischevious behaviours. He had a plan to try to get them to follow the four famous regulative principles and chant japa for about two hours a day. At first it was very difficult for them to comply and even later on when they would often put on an external show of complying, it was just that, a show. Under the circumstances he had to emphasize the free choice of the jiva, because he wanted them (by then, I was part of them) so therefore us to stop messing around like a bunch of ex-hippies with lingering hippy qualities. Often when he explained things like minute free will with its complexities etc., it was used as an excuse for some kind of deviation either in behaviour or philosophy. But time marches on and although still spiritually immature, the time has been here for quite a while for us to approach some of the subtleties of Absolute Reality. All Gaudiya Vaisnavas should be aware of what Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has given on this subject. Any opinion which is in line with Visvanatha's conclusions even if it expands and elaborates on it is certainly worth reading.

[RadheyRadhey108 1]

Well, if there's no free will, then every child raped, every animal slaughtered, every woman abused is a part of His will and the rapist, murderer, and abuser are all just doing what He wants. Sorry... but that doesn't exactly fit the definition of a loving God.

[bija 0]

(SB 10.51.54) "When the end of this seemingly endless cycle comes in sight, one attains the association of a devotee...." posted by malati

The more I reflect upon the workings of material energy, which binds me, its seems there is no freedom. We fall into illusion as conditioned beings and think we are making progress by material action...and then bang!!! Finished!! Even devastation sometimes!!

 

Its like one step forward, two steps back. This material world is fully binding. Even though we imagine we are free.

 

So how is bhakti soothing to the soul in this fire of material existence? What does the devotee give to soothe (that is alluded to in Malati's quote)? What are the cooling rays of moonlight after days of scorching heat?

 

 

 

SB4.29.39-40

TEXTS 39–40

yatra bhāgavatā rājan

sādhavo viśadāśayāḥ

bhagavad-guṇānukathana-

śravaṇa-vyagra-cetasaḥ

tasmin mahan-mukharitā madhubhic-caritra-

pīyūṣa-śeṣa-saritaḥ paritaḥ sravanti

tā ye pibanty avitṛṣo nṛpa gāḍha-karṇais

tān na spṛśanty aśana-tṛḍ-bhaya-śoka-mohāḥ

 

 

SYNONYMS

yatra—where; bhāgavatāḥ—great devotees; rājan—O King; sādhavaḥ—saintly persons; viśada-āśayāḥ—broad-minded; bhagavat—of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; guṇa—the qualities; anukathana—to regularly recite; śravaṇa—to hear; vyagra—eager; cetasaḥ—whose consciousness; tasmin—there; mahat—of great saintly persons; mukharitāḥ—emanating from the mouths; madhu-bhit—of the killer of the Madhu demon; caritra—the activities or the character; pīyūṣa—of nectar; śeṣa—surplus; saritaḥ—rivers; paritaḥ—all around; sravanti—flow; tāḥ—all of them; ye—they who; pibanti—drink; avitṛṣaḥ—without being satisfied; nṛpa—O King; gāḍha—attentive; karṇaiḥ—with their ears; tān—them; na—never; spṛśanti—touch; aśana—hunger; tṛṭ—thirst; bhaya—fear; śoka—lamentation; mohāḥ—illusion.

 

 

TRANSLATION

My dear King, in the place where pure devotees live, following the rules and regulations and thus purely conscious and engaged with great eagerness in hearing and chanting the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, in that place if one gets a chance to hear their constant flow of nectar, which is exactly like the waves of a river, one will forget the necessities of life—namely hunger and thirst—and become immune to all kinds of fear, lamentation and illusion.

 

 

PURPORT

The cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is possible where great devotees live together and constantly engage in hearing and chanting the glories of the Lord. In a holy place like Vṛndāvana, there are many devotees constantly engaged in chanting and hearing the glories of the Lord. If one gets the chance to hear from pure devotees in such a place, allowing the constant flow of the river of nectar to come from the mouths of pure devotees, then the cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness becomes very easy. When one is engaged in constantly hearing the glories of the Lord, he certainly rises above the bodily conception. When one is in the bodily conception, he feels the pangs of hunger and thirst, fear, lamentation and illusion. But when one is engaged in hearing and chanting the glories of the Lord, he transcends the bodily conception.

The word bhagavad-guṇānukathana-śravaṇa-vyagra-cetasaḥ, meaning “always eager to find the place where the glories of the Lord are being heard and chanted,” is significant in this verse. A businessman is always very eager to go to a place where business is transacted. Similarly, a devotee is very eager to hear from the lips of liberated devotees. As soon as one hears the glories of the Lord from the liberated devotees, he immediately becomes impregnated with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is also confirmed in another verse:

satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido

bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ

taj-joṣaṇād āśv apavarga-vartmani

śraddhā ratir bhaktir anukramiṣyati

 

 

“In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and to the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.” (Bhāg. 3.25.25) In the association of pure devotees, one becomes attached to hearing and chanting the glories of the Lord. In this way one can cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and as soon as this cultivation is advanced, one can become faithful to the Lord, devoted to the Lord and attached to the Lord, and thus one can very quickly attain full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The secret of success in the cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is hearing from the right person. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person is never disturbed by the bodily necessities—namely eating, sleeping, mating and defending.

 

 

 

[bija 0]

In the long run even that free will, will dissapear, the only thing that exist is the thing that is eternal, our dependence to God. by amlesh

And the compassion of a pure devotee to awaken us to that freedom. We can choose to accept or reject that mercy. I feel that free-will to choose real freedom, is one of the purposes behind our minute free-will.

Like the Srila Prabhupada quote earlier in this thread, if we had no free-will we would be like a stone.

In the conditioned state there is no freedom. In the last few days we have seen thousands devastated by natural calamiity...what I am questioning within at the moment would my neophyte bhakti soothe that? God help us!

I am thinking of Srila Prabhupada's words that real humanitarian work is to assist the jiva to go back home back to Godhead...to be free of this world. The secret of that work is within the above Bhagavatam quote!

[shvu 1]

 

Well, if there's no free will, then every child raped, every animal slaughtered, every woman abused is a part of His will and the rapist, murderer, and abuser are all just doing what He wants. Sorry... but that doesn't exactly fit the definition of a loving God.

 

If he does not want it, it would never exist, right? So the argument is moot.

 

The fact is, Krishna is looking on as children starve, women get raped and civilian homes are bombed in war zones. He has been looking on and has done nothing to stop it. This is true whether man has free will or not.

 

Cheers

[cbrahma 0]

 

If he does not want it, it would never exist, right? So the argument is moot.

 

The fact is, Krishna is looking on as children starve, women get raped and civilian homes are bombed in war zones. He has been looking on and has done nothing to stop it. This is true whether man has free will or not.

 

Cheers

What is this? Vaisnava nihilism? You don't understand the first thing about Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

[bija 0]

If he does not want it, it would never exist, right? So the argument is moot. by shvu

I have contemplated deeply on this shvu and can see the points you make.

 

Not so long ago I was in deep meditation reflecting on my own suffering experiences, and a gentle voice spoke within...'if I was all these things would you still love me?'

 

That small voice was greatly different than an aloof transcendental entity called God. It was almost human and sensitive to love.

 

It is my personal integration of this encounter of human experience. While still maintaining a faith in God.

 

After encounter in this world can we still love? Only a self realized person will find that essence.

 

What is God? I know one thing...God is not aloof...even if transcendentally unaffected by this ghastly horror! Absolute must be all things.

 

That transcendence is vastly different than the conditioned suffering souls idea of God I feel.

 

Either my past ideas of god were flawed, or God does not exist. I choose to love the God that is absolute! And fully integrate my experience of consciousness and choice!

[RadheyRadhey108 1]

 

If he does not want it, it would never exist, right? So the argument is moot.

So you think that Lord Krishna advocates child rape, animal slaughter, and spousal abuse?

And, no, just b/c He doesn't want it to happen doesn't mean it won't... hence the reason that we have free will (unless you think that Lord Krishna advocates mass slaughter and rape). We make our own choices, and He decides the consequences. There would be no Karma if we had no free will, b/c everything would be exactly what the Lord wanted and we would incur no results from our actions.

[theist 1]

 

Well, if there's no free will, then every child raped, every animal slaughtered, every woman abused is a part of His will and the rapist, murderer, and abuser are all just doing what He wants. Sorry... but that doesn't exactly fit the definition of a loving God.

 

Exactly. If everything is predestined why is there karmic law?

[cbrahma 0]

 

Srila Prabhupada taught repeatedly that the origin of the living entity was in the spiritual world and that, due to the misuse of his free will, he fell into this temporary world of illusion and repeated birth and death. Any serious follower of His Divine Grace knows that this was one of the core concepts of Prabhupada’s presentation of Krishna consciousness.

• 
  
  "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album)
  
  “As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly, we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration-therefore, many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but brahma-sayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even, he was with Krsna.” THE ORIGIN OF THE JIVA: BRAHMAJYOTI OR KRISHNA LILA? - Australian conversation with Srila Prabhupada Transcribed as Nectar of the Month, BBT Report, January, 1982)
  Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?
  Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna’s service," and they are happy in Krsna’s service.
  Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it?
  Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?
  Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.
  Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, "Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man," I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . . . ..
  Bhaktijana: Has my soul ever been liberated?
  Prabhupada: That you know. I do not know.
  Bhaktijana: If I was once liberated...
  Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. Don’t you sometimes dream that tiger is eating you? Is there any tiger? You are simply thinking. So if you keep in Krsna consciousness, that nonsense thinking will go away. Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Krsna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by Krsna consciousness. All right. Distribute prasadam. (end) (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967) (Emphasis added)
  

 

[Malati dasi 0]

Amlesh: Choice is given, but outcome is already decided by providence. Arhuna was asked to choose but was said by Krishna, whether you choose or not to do the Job, the outcome has already been decided.

In the long run even that free will, will dissapear, the only thing that exist is the thing that is eternal, our dependence to God.

 

 

I agree with Amlesh. Yesterday we planned to mountain hike as we do every weekend but it rained the whole day. My plan, my choice, was thwarted by nature!

 

 

Our will is very small as to be negligible in the overall scheme of things.

 

 

 

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[cbrahma 0]

If our will is neglible then so our we. That is tantamount to impersonalism.

[Malati dasi 0]

CBraham: If our will is neglible then so our we. That is tantamount to impersonalism.

 

 

Firstly, "I" am not we. Please, cbrahma, only speak for yourself!

 

I am a jiva; an insignificant entitity in the overall scheme. When I say "our free will is negligible as to be insignificant" that does not negate our individual form (swarup) or our identity. So what I said did not equate to impersonalism.

 

If I'm going to the bowels of the lowest planetary system I do not even make a dent of the whole material universes.

 

We have always thought we are the doer and we have that many choices, but just take an honest look at your practical life.

 

To those who would care to read this: The reason why I post here is that I want people to understand that Gaudiya Vaishnavism has a very rich philosophical teachings and that can be found by going back to our roots, the teachings and writings of ouir foundational acharyas.

 

Bye for now, I will have to go shopping. To CBrahma, you always complain that you have no time for sadhana but you always find time to hang around in this forum.

 

Radhe Radhe Radhe

[cbrahma 0]

 

CBraham: If our will is neglible then so our we. That is tantamount to impersonalism.

 

 

Firstly, "I" am not we. Please, cbrahma, only speak for yourself!

 

I am a jiva; an insignificant entitity in the overall scheme. So When I say "our free will is negligible as to be ingsignificant" that does not negate our individual form (swarup) or our identity

 

If I'm going to the bowels of the lowest planetary system I do not even make a dent of the whole material universes.

 

We have always thought we are the doer and we have that many choices, but just take an honest look at your practical life.

 

 

You spoke in general therefore so did 'I'.

Our will being insignficant, means 'our' choices are also meaningless. Choice is the defining characteristic of persons. Also as jiva we share the qualitative identity of the divine - which includes freedom, but in minute proportion. Whatever you minimize about choice you also minimize about that spiritual identity. (ignore Beggar)

[Beggar 0]

 

You spoke in general therefore so did 'I'.

Our will being insignficant, means 'our' choices are also meaningless. Choice is the defining characteristic of persons. Also as jiva we share the qualitative identity of the divine - which includes freedom, but in minute proportion. Whatever you minimize about choice you also minimize about that spiritual identity.

Say anything to be right! Never loose face. Never back down.

Cbrahma here admits that the jiva's freedom is minute, but then he attacks the concept that the impact of our personal choice is minimal. Then he makes the illogical leap that if you minimize choice then you minimize spiritual identity, [siddha svarupa] therefore he thinks that he has proved his previous assertion, correct and Malati is therefore a closet impersonalist. But it's all semantics. If the words are not the exactly the same that he has read in Prabhupada's books then he is immediately suspicious. Then come the accusations. This is a classic example of what I call Prabhupada-onlyism for one the conerstone beliefs in that reality system is not to read the foundational acaryas because Srila B.V. Prabhupada is seen as messiah who even supercedes Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself. They believe that only Prabhupada realized that the jiva originates in the Vaikunthas and therefore only Prabhupada understands free will and and everyone else is an impersonalist and a mayavadi. They also believe that anyone who does not see things is this way but claims to be a follower of Srila Prabhupada is bogus and a guru-tyagi.

[Amlesh 1]

 

Exactly. If everything is predestined why is there karmic law?

 

That's what I said, we are imposed results even with the so-called 'Free-will'.

 

I have the habit of seeing things using the eternal approach. I was said in the Gita, to know which is true, see whether it is eternal or not.

 

Our free-will is temporary since everyone is entitled to serve Hari someday or the other.

 

But the interesting thing is that, we get liberated and free only after giving our freedom to God.

[Amlesh 1]

 

If our will is neglible then so our we. That is tantamount to impersonalism.

 

No, it does not lead impersonalism. In fact it frees us from the conception from I and Mine. The concept of seperatist can well fit here. That is called false ego.

[Amlesh 1]

 

In the long run even that free will, will dissapear, the only thing that exist is the thing that is eternal, our dependence to God. by amlesh

And the compassion of a pure devotee to awaken us to that freedom. We can choose to accept or reject that mercy. I feel that free-will to choose real freedom, is one of the purposes behind our minute free-will.

 

Again, I would say, it does exist in conception, in reality it does not. Everyone serves the purpose of Hari, even if someone refuses to serve Him and go on his free will.

 

No blade of grass moves by the will of God, then where does the concept of free will comes. It does come, only for the ignorant, it exist for him only.

 

Duryodhana refused his peace talk, even then, he came out of some purpose for Krishna.

[bija 0]

You have shared deep realization amlesh. Thank you.

 

Its inconceivable really how apparent contradictions can co-exist in the Supreme Absolute Personality.

[theist 1]

I see no contradictions. We can choose to love Krishna or not. If we choose the later we fall into the material atmosphere and come under karmic law. We endure this until we become exhausted and then rethink our unwillness to love and serve Krishna.

 

So yes everything works to serve Krishna's will because He is the controller of all energies. But we have the choice to take the high road or the low road, to surrender now or later. Deliberate on this 'Arjuna's' and do what you wish. You have that freedom of choice.

 

 

Bg 18.63 - Thus I have explained to you knowledge still more confidential. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do.

[cbrahma 0]

 

No, it does not lead impersonalism. In fact it frees us from the conception from I and Mine. The concept of seperatist can well fit here. That is called false ego.

That is innocuous. We are distinct but not separate. Will does not have to separate, but if there is no choice, if we are not free, then we are merged indistinctly into the brahman. No choice - no distinction.

And you are wrong - distinctness- individuality is NOT false ego it is true identity. Otherwise , it is impersonalism.

[Beggar 0]

 

That is innocuous. We are distinct but not separate. Will does not have to separate, but if there is no choice, if we are not free, then we are merged indistinctly into the brahman. No choice - no distinction.

And you are wrong - distinctness- individuality is NOT false ego it is true identity. Otherwise , it is impersonalism.

How minute is the minuteness of the free will of the jiva? How great is the greatness of the free will of the infinite supreme controller? How can we measure infinite or infinitesimal? Who are we to measure anyway by our limited mind and senses and what Srila Saraswati Thakur calls our "puppy brains"? All we can really understand in our present condition is that we have a choice to follow the path given by the mahajans, mahajano yena gattah sa pantah?

 

Published in a December 1931 issue of the "Harmonist" Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur explained,

In order to be put on the track of the Absolute, listening to the words of the pure devotee is absolutely necessary. The spoken word of the devotee is the Absolute. It is only the Absolute who can give Himself away to the constituents of His power. The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the conditioned soul in the form of the name on the lips of the sadhu. This is the key to the whole position.

The works of Thakur Bhaktivinode direct the empiric pedant to discard his wrong method and inclination on the threshold of the real quest of the Absolute. If the pedant still chooses to carry his errors into the realm of the Absolute Truth, he only marched by a deceptive bye-path into the darker ignorance by his arrogant study of the scriptures. The method offered by Thakur Bhaktivinode is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the words from the living source of the truth who is none other than the pure devotee of Krsna, the concrete personal absolute.

[Amlesh 1]

 

I see no contradictions. We can choose to love Krishna or not. If we choose the later we fall into the material atmosphere and come under karmic law. We endure this until we become exhausted and then rethink our unwillness to love and serve Krishna.

 

So yes everything works to serve Krishna's will because He is the controller of all energies. But we have the choice to take the high road or the low road, to surrender now or later. Deliberate on this 'Arjuna's' and do what you wish. You have that freedom of choice.

 

Definately.

[Amlesh 1]

 

That is innocuous. We are distinct but not separate. Will does not have to separate, but if there is no choice, if we are not free, then we are merged indistinctly into the brahman. No choice - no distinction.

And you are wrong - distinctness- individuality is NOT false ego it is true identity. Otherwise , it is impersonalism.

 

I've never said the other way round. It is the way I see it also. Maybe I was not that clear in my explanations.

 

I am also a student of Srila Prabhupad.

 

But the question of Choice, I rather see it in the Long Run.