More from the pioneering years of ISKCON's Zonal Acarya days (after 1977)

[Ashvatama 0]

 

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Personally, my realization is that as leaders we must bear responsibility for the impact our leadership actions have on the people we lead. A workman shouldn’t blame his tools, and a leader shouldn’t blame his followers, demanding that they just “grin and bear it and simply eat their halava”, as someone once put it. your servant, Sita-pati das

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Would that concept extend to all leaders, or just mere 'mortals'?

 

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Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

 

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[realist 0]

 

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Personally, my realization is that as leaders we must bear responsibility for the impact our leadership actions have on the people we lead. A workman shouldn’t blame his tools, and a leader shouldn’t blame his followers, demanding that they just “grin and bear it and simply eat their halava”, as someone once put it.

Each of us has our sphere of influence and our sphere of concern, and within that sphere, conditioned or otherwise, we have our responsibility to act. It is our dharma to act according to our nature in that area.

 

For example, if mothers had spoken out more vigorously about the treatment of their children we might have avoided the tragedy that unfolded in our gurukulas. Philosophy was also employed at that time that obstructed that tragedy from been dealt with as it should have been.

your servant,

Sita-pati das

 

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Kesava Krsna dasa

 

 

It is a perrenial set of questioning; how to react or behave, towards suspect leadership and the policies they espouse. It is quite certain that even if we had a perfect checks and balance system in place, there will always be opportunities to circumvent them.

 

It is one thing to get bound up in all sorts of issues, if only to set a precedent for future members of Iskcon. But there is also a tendency to condition our Krishna consciousness to events that happen around us.

 

We often hear a weak, or neophyte devotee say he, or she, cannot practice their spiritual lives properly due to external factors discussed here. We have to admit, that circumstances affect the minds of devotees, but also offer a good excuse not to practice Krishna consciousness.

 

On this level, these scapegoates can fuel all matter of terse and binding debates. which can border on the unneccessary. They can suck out our enthusiasm and intellectual capacities, which could otherwise be trained on the neccessary - trying to reach Krishna Prema.

 

There will always be the type of soul with a nature suited to managerial and strategic deliberations, and all things related. Acknowledging this, the Iskcon ship will continue plying the turbulent waves of Kali-yuga.

 

There is only so much an individual can do.

 

So while all these contentious issues arise before us, and we continually dwell on them, sometimes to the point of mundane’ness, there sometimes has to be a cut off point for us.

 

Will it help us get to Krishna Prema by dwelling on certain things, especially if we see devotees as conditioned? It usually happens that a self respecting person has respect for others.

 

Perhaps an examination of why we may over react, or become highly strung in certain situations, can help us discover a misdirected use of energy. The point is, the potential to lose our resolve can begin with loss of respect for other devotees, however faulty they may be.

 

Yes, we are all full of faults, and mistakes will be made, but let not this disract us from the desired freedom we all seek.

 

These things will come and go, but we cannot let them dictate our level of dedication to perfect our lives. Rather, our own Krishna conscious standard should prevail, of which respectful free speech is an essential part.

 

Many dreadful things have happened, and we can only learn, and move on. Dealing with them is sometimes beyond our control, if someone wilfully desires to bend the rules.

 

Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa

[realist 0]

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

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It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. -- Chinese proverb

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->I like that, thank you prabhu.

 

 

In other words we can lament and wollow in all the worlds or ISKCON's problems and pollute our consciousness. Or we can get right into our own Sadhana of hearing and chanting Hare Krsna and telling everyone we meet about Krishna and become fixed up enough to handle the dulusional momements and lamentations as this body dies and we are forced to vacate

 

So while we still have the chance, while the material body is still functional, tell others ONLY about Krsna, giving others the only help they really need. And just avoid those so called leaders (managers) you don't see eye to eye with who are only interested lording it over others in this present pioneering version of ISKCON. Such reformers who are actually determined to maintain the status quo 'old guard' style of management as their reform. This is what they mean by reforming the reformer. However they misunderstand that Prabhupada gave us everything and now we must advance or mature to that high level or standard that certainly was not there over the last 30 years.

 

So where the problem is, many are trying to hold on to that immature dictatorial, arrogent. self rightious style of managent THAT DOES NEED TO BE REFORMED (Simply meaning to mature in the philosophy).

 

The word 'reform' means transformation or developement, or in other words, 'reforming' or coming to the correct standard already put in place in Prabhupada's books. So in this way, ISKCON certainly needs reform!!

 

Very interesting. There is an old saying about pioneers, it's hard for them to understand that those who come after them, will eventually become more refined AND MATURE in understanding the teaching of Vedanta given to us by Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

 

Reforming the reformer can only be done if those who are 'reforming the reformer' ARE first reformed

 

 

 

ISKCON has to be constantly REFORMED to the level of mature Krshna Consciousness which means practising MATURELY what has always been within Srila Prabhupadas teachings

 

The Dandavats article (http://www.dandavats.com/?p=5834 )has missed this valid point that ISKCON does need to be reformed in this regard

[cbrahma 0]

the idea of guru reformation is an oxymoron. If a guru is need of reform he is not a guru.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

the idea of guru reformation is an oxymoron. If a guru is need of reform he is not a guru.

 

Yes this is why the 11 appointed guru fiasco failed however, purification or 'reform' takes generations and many or most of them now acting as Guru are also still in the early purification stages.

 

This does not disqualify them from being Guru.

 

I disagree with you.

 

ISKCON has to be constantly REFORMED (REFINED) to the level of mature Krishna Consciousness, which means practising MATURELY and refining or reinventing what has always been within Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.

To be Guru, one simply needs to follow strictly, Prabhupada say that IS pure Devotee

 

Actually, this is the only way to develop ISKCON into a pure Society of Vaishnava's. There are different levels of pure devotees and as time goes on some will be nore predominant than others in preaching however the unbrella of ISKCON always must be there for the benefit of a global society. 'A group of matches together is stronger than a single match on its own'

 

The reform or the purification will take time and those who have strictly followed for thirty or so years ARE qualified to be Guru, based on there strict chanting of 16 rounds and following the principles of Krsna Consciousness. THAT IS THEIR QUALIFICATION Prabhupada was a nitya-siddha devotee who came down to help us, not all Gurus have to be nitya-siddha like Prabhupada

The Dandavats article (http://www.dandavats.com/?p=5834 )should clarify this point that ISKCON ALWAYS need to be reformed in this regard

[cbrahma 0]

Whose purification? The gurus or the GBC guru-appointers?

I put to you that it is first the process of appointment that needs reform.

Certainly the gurus themselves have not reached the platform of uttama-adhikari or there would be no need of reform.

So once they have acheived such purity, it will be obvious, as it was in Prabhupada's case and there will be no need of an appointment/authorization process. GBC doesn't want that of course, because that would decentralize their power.

[Sarva gattah 0]

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• 'It's not just only the bad devotees who have caused all the problems in ISKCON, the blame and responsibility also must be shared by all those good hard working dedicated devotees with good intentions, who have stood by and did nothing, even when they KNEW wrong was being done, letting the bad things happen year after year after year and doing nothing about it!!!'. - Discribing ISKCON in the1980s in Australia and America. Devotees new what was going on in the 80s, but did nothing.

It is certainly not ‘all’ Bhavananda’s fault either; his Godbrothers lavishly glorified him first before he had any disciples

 

Also he never ever demanded respect and worship off me, although Ramai Swami always would DEMAND it with threats to kick you out of the Temple if you did not fall at his feet, he was very arrogant, demanding and secretive and no-one could ever get too close to him.

 

He always treated me impersonally and always patronised me and others. On many occasions he would say “get down and bow when you see me coming’, he would demand proudly. Sadly he was a clever bully to those who were not submissive to him.

 

Anyway I never experienced that impersonalism with Bhavananda. It’s like Ramai had this invisible shield around him. I travelled with him for years like this and his 'coldness' was very frustrating. Even now he remains aloof from everyone even if his with them right in the middle of all the GBC men. Bhavananda was not like that. His Godbrothers, including myself, are to fault by taking his worship way over the top.

 

Back then, we had the 'frog in the well' mentality, puffed up with the little knowledge we had, especially Ramai Swami, he thought he new everything, but now we can see how blind we all were back then, Ramai Swami had no idea how to lead and protect the lives of others. 'He new everything that was going on'

 

He did not know how to deal with or handle so many basic issues he new about, he new me better than I new myself at the time but still had no idea how too deal with me or anyone else for that matter. I was too insecure to not go along with it all, after all, ISKCON was my only family.

 

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Is the present version of ISKCON mature enough to be trusted with direction, advice, and personal crises? The answer is it will take many more years for the leadership to advance and be mature and fully trustworthy

I heard a conversation a GBC member was having with a 54 year old man the other day. At the end he said patronisingly to this grown man "That’s a good boy" (obviously imitating Srila Prabhupada).

 

This devotee seemed to be treating him like one treats a horse, attempting to break his spirit and cleverly make him feel worthless and insecure and that no one knows better than them, belittling any endeavour this 'MAN' presented.

Is it worth being manipulated like this in the name of 'Surrender Prabhu'

Been there, already had that done to me. NEVER AGAIN!!

The point is, when Prabhupada called us boys, we were boys.