Is it true that this is Vishnu's dream?

[suchandra 1]

 

The souls who fall down don't make a conscious choice like who to vote for, or something like that it this world. Each jiva already has an innate proclivity to either serve Krsna or Maya.

Just one more question, those who don't fall from brahman and go to Vaikuntha, do they make a conscious choice? Or do you believe that all souls in the brahmajyoti are doomed to go to the material world?

You mean to say, there are souls who are programmed by Krishna to desire to go to the material world? Made by God to hanker for material existence?

That's new never heard this before. Looks like we never complete training, but if you say it must be true.

[Beggar 0]

SUBJECTIVE EVOLUTION OF CONSCIOUSNESS

Srila Sridhar Mahåråj:

...There are so many statements on the cosmology of the universe

in the scriptures. The Aryans, the spiritually developed

men of former times, used to see everything as

consciousness. They saw that the shadow is also conscious.

The shadow, åbhåsa, is also considered to be a stage of

consciousness. Only through that shadowy stage of

consciousness can we come to the material conception of

a thing. Before we reach the conception of a shadow, we

must pass through some mental stage, and personification

may be attached to that mental stage. The personification

of the shadow may be referred to as “Råhu.”

The soul approaches matter, the material world, but

before that, he must pass through a shadowy stage of

consciousness called cidåbhåsa. Consciousness passes

through the shadow level of consciousness into matter,

non-consciousness. And that shadow stage of consciousness

has its personality. It is also conscious, and may be known

as “Råhu.”

Every material conception presupposes a spiritual

conception of that particular thing. The shadow through

which consciousness must pass in order to perceive things

as material has personality, and in the Bhågavatam, the

~!is, the seers of the truth, are addressing it as Råhu. Because

they are highly developed, they find the personal aspect of

existence everywhere. What we perceive to be dead matter,

they perceive to be conscious. Therefore, they always take

the personal perspective.

The soul, when going to experience any material conception,

will have to pass through a medium which influences

his consciousness to see things as material. What is concrete

matter is unknown. It is a mere effect of consciousness. As

everything material must have some conscious origin, or

origin in personal consciousness, there must be a personal

conception of the sun, the moon, the Earth, and all the

planets. Before we reach the conception of a shadow or any

other object, the soul has to pass through a conscious stage.

That stage has some spiritual existence as a person. There-

fore the Bhågavatam refers to the sun, the moon, and the

planet Råhu, as persons. Everything – the Earth, the moon,

the stars, the planets – has a personal conception. In the

background of what we can perceive with our dull senses,

everything that is said to be matter, there must be a personal

conception. Without the influence of a personal conception,

consciousness cannot reach the stage of gross matter.

Therefore, in the ancient scriptures we find that the

great sages and ~!is are always addressing everything within

this world as a person. Although to us it is dead matter, they

have considered them as persons. Why? The matter is

rather the shadow of the personal entity. The personal,

conscious entity is more real, and the matter we perceive

through dimmed consciousness is less real.

Dr. Murphey: So that shadow is Råhu?

Srila Sridhar Mahåråj: When we conceive of the personal

representation of that shadow, it will be known as Råhu.

Everything is conscious. The shadow, its effect – everything.

When the moon is between the sun and the Earth,

the shadow of the moon is coming here, and what is

coming is also conscious. Everything is conscious first – then

there is matter. From the personal conception things evolve

to gross consciousness. It is all personal. So the ~!is with such

a vision of reality used to address everything as a person: the

trees, the mountains, the sun, the moon, the ocean. When

pure consciousness is coming to experience pure matter,

then there must first be some mixed stage, and that is a

person suffering in karma. Person means they are not a

fully developed spiritual person at present, but in a mixed

condition. So what the ~!is are saying – that everything is a

person – is real; it is not a concoction.

Everything is conscious. As the present scientists say

everything is matter, we have real cause to think that everything

is conscious. Whatever you see does not matter; we

can directly feel what is in our nature. That is conscious.

Our consciousness may be in a developed or degraded

position, but consciousness is nearer to us. We feel our

mental energy only.

Dr. Murphey: This is a bit difficult for us to fully grasp.

When we see color, what are we actually seeing?

Srila Sridhar Mahåråj: That is a mental stage.

Dr. Singh: What is the reality of that object?

Srila Sridhar Mahåråj: Reality – that is in the soul. Only

the soul is real; the seer is reality. The subject is real. And

whatever the subject feels also emanates from the subject.

Dr. Singh: But are the objects the subject perceives also

persons? When we are seeing the color red, now is red also

a personality?

Srila Sridhar Mahåråj: Everything has its representation in

the original, personal, conscious, spiritual reality. Otherwise,

there is no possibility of its being reflected into this plane

as matter. First there is consciousness and then when it is

in a more gross condition, it appears to be matter. In the

study of ontology it is taught that when studying a particular thing, although we can know that it has certain attributes

to the eye, and that it appears to the ear in a particular

way, these are all appearances. Independent of appearances,

the ontological aspect of a thing – what it is, the reality of

a thing – is unknown and unknowable. My contention is

that when consciousness is going to feel non-conscious

matter it will have to pass through a conscious area to

meet the material object. So the full perception of that

material thing cannot but be conscious; and consciousness

always indicates person. First there is conception and

then the material idea.

The conscious world is very near and the material world

is very far off. Therefore the great ~!is, whose thinking is

highly developed, address whatever they find within the

environment as if they are all persons. In the Vedas, the

ancient scriptural literature of India, we find that the saints

and sages are always in the midst of so many persons; in the

background everything is a person.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Nice logic, but you're lacking that in brahmajyoti there's no knowledge, cit.

 

 

That is not at all the verdict of the shastras. All spiritual manifestations are inherently sat cit ananda - there can be no separation of any of these from spirit. This is the most basic understanding of Brahman. You may say that in brahmajyoti the sat feature is more prominent then the ananda, but you can never say that either cit or ananda are absent there. That would be an absurd claim.

[Beggar 0]

 

Just one more question, those who don't fall from brahman and go to Vaikuntha, do they make a conscious choice? Or do you believe that all souls in the brahmajyoti are doomed to go to the material world?

You mean to say, there are souls who are programmed by Krishna to desire to go to the material world? Made by God to hanker for material existence?

That's new never heard this before. Looks like we never complete training, but if you say it must be true.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura has written that only approximately 10 per cent of jiva souls come to the material world upon becoming activated within the effulgence of the Lord. The other aprox. 90 per cent will express the healthy desire to serve Bhagavan and will go to where that activity is carried out, the Vaikunthas. I personally don't understand how these jivas are "trained up". Maybe someone can direct us or post something.

 

 

Just one more question, those who don't fall from brahman and go to Vaikuntha, do they make a conscious choice?

Their choice is conscious but minute at first then fully expressed, they are not perverted like those of us who are attracted by the material world, they are pure devotees who desire to serve Krsna, Rama, Narayana etc.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

HG Sri Sriman Kulapavana prabhu recently explained that we start in the brahmajyoti making there the wrong decision although in perfect knowledge and from there arrive at the maha-tattva and then we take birth in a material body. In sum, impressive imagination but weak logic, because there is no perfect knowledge cit in the brahmajyoti.

Remember, in the first verse of Brahma-samhita the word "cit" refers to Lord Krsna's spiritual form. And exactly this cit is absent in the brahman effulgence of sat and ananda.

 

Thanks for the title!

 

the knowledge is there in Brahman, but because we are minute, our knowledge is minute as well. cit actually refers to a perfect cognitive function, like an ability to learn rapidly without misunderstanding the lesson, or an ability to grasp all features of an object (touch, smell. taste, etc) just by grasping it with your pure consciousness.

 

do you think that residents of Vaikuntha have perfect knowledge of earthly locomotives just because their cit potency is full and perfect? please study the shastra to understand what cit is, and what brahmajyoti is.

[suchandra 1]

 

That is not at all the verdict of the shastras. All spiritual manifestations are inherently sat cit ananda - there can be no separation of any of these from spirit. This is the most basic understanding of Brahman. You may say that in brahmajyoti the sat feature is more prominent then the ananda, but you can never say that either cit or ananda are absent there. That would be an absurd claim.

 

Better quote sastra instead using proof like "absurd". Beggar agrees, the jivas have no knowledge when being merged as one in the brahmanjyoti, but then he says, we're made by Krishna to decide for the material world?

[Beggar 0]

 

Better quote sastra instead using proof like "absurd". Beggar agrees, the jivas have no knowledge when being merged as one in the brahmanjyoti, but then he says, we're made by Krishna to decide for the material world?

 

What you consider absurd is actually acintya or inconceivable. In fact you have now revealed a new fault of the Fall from Vaikuntha theory. Fallvadis and Sleepervadis think that the decision to come to the material world was made in Vaikuntha with full consciousness. The residents of Vaikuntha may be fully conscious from one point of view but actually they have something missing in their consciousness and that is that they are unaware of Maha Maya and Her material allurements. So how would they be allured? The jivas in the brahmajyoti actually get some kind of hazy glimpse of both Vaikuntha and the material world upon their awakening or activation. Through this glimpse they can manifest their attraction to either one. The fact that "they already have this tendency" are merely English words and these clumsy words are trapped as we are, within time. Remember all this takes place beyond time.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Better quote sastra instead using proof like "absurd".

 

In Madvacharya's commentary to Vedanta Sutra (4.4.5), he states:

 

"The sage Jaimini believes that a liberated person does not have a body of his own. Rather, he enjoys experiences through the body of Para Brahma (the All-pervading Absolute Godhead). It is stated in the Sruti (Vedas) that a Mukta (liberated soul) sees through the eyes of Para Brahma, hears through His ears etc. The same is also stated in the Smriti.

 

Audulomi holds the view that a liberated soul enjoys through his Aprakrita body which is essentially made up of Jnana (divine knowledge). The form of the liberated souls is always defined to be the embodiment of Jnana. Such a form cannot be the cause of Samsara (worldly attachment), and is appropriate for a soul in the state of Mukti (liberation).

 

Badarayana (Vyasa) sees no conflict between the views of Jaimini and Audulomi. He reconciles both of them and sees both as authentic. The scriptures state that a liberated soul does not possess a Prakrita (material) body like the Samsarin (a person in illusion); hence Jaimini's view that a liberated soul does not have a body is authentic. Sruti also states that after relinquishing the material body a soul is an embodiment of Jnana in the sate of Mukti, thus Audulomi's view is also authentic. The reconciliation is achieved by arguing that a liberated soul has his knowledge-bliss body and he enjoys pleasure through the instrumentality of the limbs of God's Aprakrita (transcendental) body."

[Kulapavana 0]

In the Paramatma Sandarbha (19) of Jiva Gosvami Jamatr Muni 's quote from the Padma Purana, Uttara Khanda is found describing the jiva:


 

 

 

jnanasrayo jnana-gunas cetanah prakrteh parah

na jato nirvikaras ca eka-rupa-svarupa-bhak

anur nityo vyapti-silas cid anandatmakas tatha

aham-artho'vyayah ksetri bhinna-rupah sanatanah

adahyo'yam acchedyo' kledyo' sosyaksara eva ca

evam adi gunair yuktah sesa-bhutah parasya vai


 

"The jiva is the shelter of knowledge, has the quality of knowledge, is conscious, non-material, without birth, unchanging, has one natural form, is a particle, eternal, pervasive, full of knowledge and bliss, has a sense of "I", is master of his body, does not decrease, is a separate form, cannot be burned, cut, or dried and is indestructible. " 


[suchandra 1]

 

Thanks for the title!

 

the knowledge is there in Brahman, but because we are minute, our knowledge is minute as well. cit actually refers to a perfect cognitive function, like an ability to learn rapidly without misunderstanding the lesson, or an ability to grasp all features of an object (touch, smell. taste, etc) just by grasping it with your pure consciousness.

 

do you think that residents of Vaikuntha have perfect knowledge of earthly locomotives just because their cit potency is full and perfect? please study the shastra to understand what cit is, and what brahmajyoti is.

 

 

Agreed, knowledge how to build a locomotive we learn here in kuntha, but that knowledge what is spiritual activity and what is material sensegratification must be there in order to make that decision.

And as Prabhupada says, although the government builds a prison, it is us who consciously acts in such a way to be thrown into that prison.

Not that the government builds the prison and says, we throw you into prison because we build such a nice prison. And that is missing in the brahma-vadi belief, where we are all one, fully merged, the knowledge for a deliberate decision, no I don't want to go to Vaikuntha, I want material sensegratification. What I learned in the bhakta-program, everything what happens is activated by me, no one is kicked out of the spiritual world and falls into this material world because he did nothing. Or what Beggar says, Krishna made our soul that way, to fall spontaneously into maya. Never heard that before. But if you say it is true, I'll have to re-read sastra again and again.

[Beggar 0]

 

Or what Beggar says, Krishna made our soul that way, to fall spontaneously into maya. Never heard that before. But if you say it is true, I'll have to re-read sastra again and again.

It would be wrong to say that Krsna made our soul that way, if that was the case then their would be no minute free will. But as foolish as it sounds, (although not to you) consider at least theoretically the idea that we were, say a cowherd boy in Goloka and one day suddenly felt that we wanted to be the center of attraction rather than Krsna. Can you explain where that thought would come from? Do you imagine that a cowherd boy engaged in lila for many days but at the same time had envious thoughts about Krsna? Or some might believe that the instant that the envious thought manifested the envious sakha was cast out of Goloka (or is dreaming it). That would be at the instant. This is what's absurd! And how long would that instant be, a few seconds, a fourth of a Goloka second? or an instant. How about an instant of time which is so small that we couldn't even measue it and that instant would also be beyond material time. But the reality is that such an "instant" doesn't take place in Goloka but rather from the tatastha position itself which may also be called the brahmajyoti. Therefore no one falls from Vaikuntha even a leaf!

[AncientMariner 0]

I wonder how much time the residents of the Vaikunthas spend debating the fall of the jiva theory?

[Beggar 0]

I wonder how much time the residents of the Vaikunthas spend debating the fall of the jiva theory?

Once a Prabhupada disciple asked Srila Sridhar Maharaja that since Krsna only kills (actually as Visnu) the demons in His lila in the material world, "do the inhabitants of Goloka Vrndavana know about these pastimes?" His reply was that they know about them because they have paintings of Krsna killing the demons on an earth planet.

[suchandra 1]

 

It would be wrong to say that Krsna made our soul that way, if that was the case then their would be no minute free will. But as foolish as it sounds, (although not to you) consider at least theoretically the idea that we were, say a cowherd boy in Goloka and one day suddenly felt that we wanted to be the center of attraction rather than Krsna. Can you explain where that thought would come from? Do you imagine that a cowherd boy engaged in lila for many days but at the same time had envious thoughts about Krsna? Or some might believe that the instant that the envious thought manifested the envious sakha was cast out of Goloka (or is dreaming it). That would be at the instant. This is what's absurd! And how long would that instant be, a few seconds, a fourth of a Goloka second? or an instant. How about an instant of time which is so small that we couldn't even measue it and that instant would also be beyond material time. But the reality is that such an "instant" doesn't take place in Goloka but rather from the tatastha position itself which may also be called the brahmajyoti. Therefore no one falls from Vaikuntha even a leaf!

 

Thanks for this contribution Beggar, some nice closing words by HH Jayadvaita Swami:

 

On learning that the material world is not our real home,

we naturally wonder, “How did we get here?”

 

by Jayadvaita Swami

 

from Back to Godhead, May-June 1993

 

When we hear that we live in this material world because we are “fallen souls,” it’s natural for us to ask, “Where have we fallen from?”

 

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

 

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

 

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

 

Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down.

 

That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected. “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

 

[Beggar 0]

Yet the fall from the tatastha position is given by the sastra and previous acaryas. In old ISKCON the way around this was that the sastras and commentary were translated by covert Mayavadis (the evil Gaudiya Math). But that theory can no longer fly because these writings have now been translated into English by Western members of ISKCON and the results are the same. Of course some, like Sarva gattah would argue that such translators went to India and then got contaminated by the Gaudiya Math, another absurd charge. So we are left with guru, sadhu and sastra. When Srila Prabhupada writes something in his book that follows guru, sadhu and sastra, then that is the higher and real truth. If something contradicts that, then it is meant for time, place and circumstance. This is all we can do.

[Beggar 0]

References showing that the residents of the spiritual world are extremely happy and being very much in love with Krsna, could never consider leaving.

The

nitya-siddha

devotees love Krsna millions of times more than their own selves. They all have eternal, blissful qualities just like Lord Krsna. (Brs. 2.1.290, text)

Whether boys, youths, or grown-up persons-every one of the millions of cowherd residents of Vraja feels himself the dearest to Krsna. (Brhad-bhag. 2.6.211, text)

Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes in

Govinda-bhasya,

"One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord." He further states that this is because of their extreme mutual love and cites four verses as evidence (Bg. 7.17, Bhag. 9.4.68, 9.4.65 and 2.8.6).

For a devotee who has actually developed bhava, the pleasure derived from

dharma,

artha, kama

and

moksa

appears like a drop in the presence of the sea. (Cc. Adi-lila 7.85, text)

The Lord's pure devotee renders service unto the Lord out of unalloyed love only, and while discharging such devotional service the pure devotee forgets the position of the Supreme Lord. [bhag. 1.8.31, purport]

The conception of spiritual bliss (Brahmananda) is fully present in those planets ... That eternal land is full of transcendental enjoyment and full of beauty and bliss. (Bhag.2.6.18, purp.)

For all living entities to be attracted toward Krsna is natural, and therefore the Lord's real name is Krsna, meaning He who attracts everyone and everything. The typical examples of such attraction are found in Vrndavana, where everything and everyone is attracted by Krsna... all living beings are attracted by Krsna. This is the natural situation of everything in Vrndavana. Just contrary to the affairs of Vrndavana is the material world, where no one is attracted by Krsna and everyone is attracted by maya. This is the difference between the spiritual and material worlds. (

Bhag

. 7.5.14, purp.)

 

 

[AncientMariner 0]

I don't understand how a jiva could fall from the Vaikunthas and at the same time I don't understand how the conditioned souls that are capable of returning to Godhead got in that position in the first place. Don't know if I ever will understand that.

[new---new 0]

this question (about the falll or the creation of the jiva)cannot be explained without getting into mayavada ...so hare krishna's should just forget it ....it doesnt matter .....

[Sarva gattah 0]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Very good post Suchandra, I would like to further add what Srila Prabhupada has taught us

 

Our attendance in the material world is very, very real. And to each of us, while we are here in the mahat-tattva or material creation, it is NOT a dream state, even though it is a dream condition of the living entity however, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state WHILE WE ARE HERE, try to understand it is very real, in fact the mahat-tattva is as real as being in Vaikuntha however, we experience everything in the mahat-tattva as temporary.

<O:P></O:P>

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't want this to be lost in this hijacked thread so I have sent personal mail also to theist

 

I must take exception to the idea that this is not a dream state because we do not experience it as a dream. A dream is a dream rather we recognize it as a dream.

Where does he say it is not a dream as long as we think it is real?

Yes you are right, what I am trying to explain is that the 'dream' even though a dream, is not experienced as a dream while we are dreaming it. A bit complicated isn't it?

Actually I am learning all the time and it was originally your explanation that sent me on the path to try and explain this

Theist -"Therefore, it is not enough to just say there is only the eternal present and pretend we are free from time while we continue to revolve in birth and death. A prisoner behind bars for twenty years may shut his eyes and pretend he his release date has already arrived but the fact is he is still behind bars The material experience of time as past present future is an illusion but it is also very real"

I used the above in http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/445382-no-contradiction-teachings-srila-prabhupada-fall-jiva-10.html#post1082771.

The last part not in brackets is also your statement. I humbly ask how to clearly explain that dream the 'appears' not as a dreaming while we are dreaming it, even though it is a dream. Frankly not many people will understand this unless it is clearly explained (unless they are ready and have the spiritual pious qualifications to comprehend, similar to the Bible story of Babylon when mundane man tried to build a stair case to heaven that is only reached by pious deeds) - your writing is superb, please explain 'the dream of the jiva soul and Maha Vishnu' in a simple way -

Hare Krishna Prabhu

 

 

 

Above in the painting - Krishna in His eternal Goloka Vrndavan planet. Below in the painting is His dreaming Maha-Vishnu expansion within His mahat-tattva creation.

 

 

 

 

This mahat-tattva creation, the dream of Maha-Vishnu, is also where those living entities in Goloka and Vaikuntha project themselves when dreaming they are no longer in Goloka.

 

 

 

 

This is how the living entity falls down from Goloka - it is simply a dream. Their Spiritual bodily form is eternally in Goloka.

 

[theist 1]

 

Nice message for theist prabhu - I drink milk, but thanks for reminding.

 

So does everyone else in the world. How many spiritually intelligent people is all this milk drinking producing do you think?

[indulekhadasi 0]

How can you guys debate the same issue for years, when you know that no one is going to change there opinion? Don't you think it is a waste of time? If you want to express the truth than do so but do so once. There is nothing more you can do.

 

If you want to know what I have understood from the previous acharyas about the fall of the jiva issue, you can PM me. I will give you a simple straightfoward answer but if you refute me, I will not reply for I know that I cannot change anyone's opinion.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

 

 

 

That's because when we do leave Vaikuntha, we only dream we we leave, when in actual fact within Vaikuntha, our ETERNAL Spiritual bodily identity (nitya-siddha svarupa) never leaves. This is the real meaning of Bhag. 3.16.26,

 

 

 

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Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. - Letter, June 13, 1970.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are ALL originally Krsna conscious entities" 1966 Hare Krsna Album

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[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

We are always in Vaikuntha but some of us foolishly think dream and imagine we are not there. The conclusion is therefore that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode as explained in Bhag. 3.16.26, purp

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears.

Srila Prabhupada - "But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position (with Krsna eternally in Goloka).

Srila Prabhupada - "Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there.

Srila Prabhupada - "There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada - "As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya.

Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila or sport.

Srila Prabhupada - "But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going.

Srila Prabhupada - "Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only.

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed". Letter Madhudvisa in Australia 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha”. Mayapur, February 18, 1977-“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarupa, his original identity” SB 8.24.48

Srila Prabhupada - "Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad Gita as it is 4.6

Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport”".

From the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their perpetual 'svarupa body, or real identity in Goloka, always remains there eternally established in the endless 'present', even if they have chosen to enter the material creation of selfish imagination of divided time and space.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

The conclusion is clearly we are originally from Vaikuntha and not the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. - Letter, June 13, 1970.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are ALL originally Krsna conscious entities" 1966 Hare Krsna Album

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The living entity falls 'consciously' from above depiction of Goloka to enter the mahat-tattva

 

 

The Vaikuntha planets and the central Goloka Vrndavana planet of Radha and Krsna (above) take up 75% of the Spiritual Sky and is timeless (the eternal present where there is no past or future – only the eternal ‘now’ which means EVERY living entity is already and perpetually in Goloka AS their nitya siddha body serving Krishna.

 

The impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is the individual baddha-jivas in a dreamless state of consciousness attained ONLY after passing through the various bodily mahat-tattva vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu.

 

This is difficult to comprehend, just because someone is born in India and is Indian born does not mean he must know the meaning and origins of life. To the contrary, India is a corrupt place full of people masquerading as devotees of Krsna who never understood their own Vedas, that is until Srila Prabhupada came to America and then returned back to India with his young Western disciples to again restarted the bonafide teachings of Vedanta back in India. The Gaudiya Math was vertually a dead or stagnated organization until Prabhupada single handedly started the Golden Age of Lord Caitanya in 1965<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->