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Age of Planet Earth

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Since a partial annihilation occurs during every night of Lord Brahma, planets like our Earth are newly created every morning of Lord Brahma's days.

 

 

During his night Brahma sleeps and the three planetary systems meet destruction. This is called naimittika or occasional annihilation. (SB 12.4.2-4)

Each day of Lord Brahma consists of 500 maha-yugas and each night also has the duration of 500 maha-yugas, each maha-yuga lasting for 4,320,000 human years. The 500 maha-yugas of one day of Lord Brahma are divided into 14 periods called manvantaras. Six such manvantaras are over. We are now in the 7th. When each manvantara has the duration of 71 maha-yugas, 6x71 maha-yugas plus we are right now in the 28th maha-yuga of this manvantara, Vaivasvata Manu, makes the age of our Earth, 454 maha-yugas. One maha-yuga are 4,320,000 years= 1,961,280,000 years.

Now, at http://indiaheritage.org/rendez/article1.htm it says the age of our Universe is 1,972,949,102 human years, but Lord Brahma is supposed to be at the age of 50 right now, means the Universe must have the same age of 50 years like Lord Brahma? 1000 maha-yugas x 365 x 50, what is a much bigger number. Any suggestion?

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From the excerpt of the Bhagavad-gita As It Is (by A.C. Bhaktivedanta)

from the ancient eternal Vedas that follows my summary below, some

figures may be important in resolving the riddle of the life forms

found to have existed here in past years:

Each material cosmos is manifest for 311.04 trillion earth years.

 

Life is manifest in the universe for 4.32 billion years, then for

4.32 billion years no life is manifest, then again for 4.32 billion

years life is manifest and so on. This continues for 36,000 cycles before

the cosmic manifestation is wound up and later a completely new one is

created.

 

 

Which cycle are we in now? Good question. I don't know if anyone has

been able to deduce that. That will date the material cosmos. We do,

however, know where in this cycle we find ourselves.

 

This kalpa (day of Brahma) began 2.0 billion years ago. This means

that life was here 2.0 billion years ago, and before that there was no

life for 4.32 billion years. Based on this information we should

expect to see distinct traces of major change every 4.32 billion

years. There are also periodic phases of partial dissolution and

partial creation throughout the manifestation of the cosmos. So, we

may also even see phases starting 3.89 million years ago and prior to

that every 4.32 million years.Another interesting note found in the Vedas, but not quoted here, is that the average lifespan of a human varies significantly in the various ages.

 

 

 

In the current Age of Kali, life is 100 years, in Dvapara it is 1,000

years, in Treta it is 10,000 years and in the Satya Age it is 100,000 years.

 

[bhagavad-gita As It Is (8:17-19) by BBT]: <BLOCKQUOTE>

 

'The duration of the material universe is limited. It is manifested

in cycles of kalpas. A kalpa is a day of Brahma, and one day of Brahma

consists of a thousand cycles of four yugas, or ages: Satya, Treta,

Dvapara and Kali. The cycle of Satya is characterized by virtue,

wisdom and religion, there being practically no ignorance and vice,

and the yuga lasts 1,728,000 years. In the Treta-yuga vice is

introduced, and this yuga lasts 1,296,000 years. In the Dvapara-yuga

there is an even greater decline in virtue and religion, vice

increasing, and this yuga lasts 864,000 years. And finally in

Kali-yuga (the yuga we have now been experiencing over the past

5,000 years) there is an abundance of strife, ignorance, irreligion and

vice, true virtue being practically nonexistent, and this yuga lasts

432,000 years. In Kali-yuga vice increases to such a point that at

the termination of the yuga the Supreme Lord Himself appears as the

Kalki avatara, vanquishes the demons, saves His devotees, and commences

another Satya-yuga. Then the process is set rolling again. These

four yugas, rotating a thousand times, comprise one day of Brahma, and

the same number comprise one night. Brahma lives one hundred of such

years and then dies. These hundred years by earth calculations

total to 311 trillion and 40 billion earth years. By these

calculations the life of Brahma seems fantastic and interminable,

but from the viewpoint of eternity it is as brief as a lightning flash.

In the Causal Ocean there are innumerable Brahmas rising and

disappearing like bubbles in the Atlantic. Brahma and his creation are all part of the material universe, and therefore they are in constant flux.

 

In the material universe not even Brahma is free from the process of

birth, old age, disease and death. Brahma, however, is directly

engaged in the service of the Supreme Lord in the management of this

universe--therefore he at once attains liberation. Elevated

sannyasis are promoted to Brahma's particular planet, Brahmaloka, which is the highest planet in the material universe and which survives all the

heavenly planets in the upper strata of the planetary system, but in

due course Brahma and all the inhabitants of Brahmaloka are subject

to death, according to the law of material nature.

 

 

 

At the beginning of Brahma's day, all living entities become

manifest from the unmanifest state, and thereafter, when the night falls,

they are merged into the unmanifest again.

 

 

Again and again, when Brahma's day arrives, all living entities come

into being, and with the arrival of Brahma's night they are

helplessly annihilated.

 

 

 

The less intelligent, who try to remain within this material world,

may be elevated to higher planets and then again must come down to

this planet earth. During the daytime of Brahma they can exhibit

their activities on higher and lower planets within this material world,

but at the coming of Brahma's night they are all annihilated. In the day

they receive various bodies for material activities, and at night

they no longer have bodies but remain compact in the body of Visnu. Then

again they are manifest at the arrival of Brahma's day. Bhutva

bhutva praliyate: during the day they become manifest, and at night they

are annihilated again. Ultimately, when Brahma's life is finished, they

are all annihilated and remain unmanifest for millions and millions

of years. And when Brahma is born again in another millennium they are

again manifest. In this way they are captivated by the spell of the

material world.'</BLOCKQUOTE>

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From the excerpt of the Bhagavad-gita As It Is (by A.C. Bhaktivedanta)

from the ancient eternal Vedas that follows my summary below, some

figures may be important in resolving the riddle of the life forms

found to have existed here in past years:

Each material cosmos is manifest for 311.04 trillion earth years.

 

 

Thanks gHari for the fast reply, "again and again, when Brahma's day arrives, all living entities come into being, and with the arrival of Brahma's night they are helplessly annihilated".

In sum, our Lord Brahma is at the age of 50, the same age of this Universe, and the age of our planet Earth is half a day of Lord Brahma since it is right now noon, lunchtime, at Brahmaloka.

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That means the universes are 155 trillion years old. Put that in your super-computer simulation.

Could be that such kind of higher knowledge is also meant for everyone.

I'm not quite sure if all universes are of the same age.

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Could be that such kind of higher knowledge is also meant for everyone.

I'm not quite sure if all universes are of the same age.

 

Yes. Surely ALL of the universes aren't reabsorbed into the pores of Maha-Vishnu at EXACTLY the same time? I'm not saying that it isn't possible, because anything is possible for God. But, to me, it seems more reasonable to suggest that some universes re-enter Maha-Vishnu's body before certain other ones do and some universes re-enter His body after certain other ones do. For Maha-Vishnu, the difference could be something like just a mere 5 seconds, but for 'us', the difference could be many millions of years. Time is relative, therefore the flow of Time can (and does) vary for who and/or what is under its influence. Time flows more slowly in higher lokas like Brahmaloka in comparison to this planet Earth.

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Along the line of Rishis post...Assuming all the Bhagavatam's numbers are correct still we wouldn't know the creation time of the earth just from saying it was created in his morning. When in his morning? 5:00 am BT (Brahma time) or 11:00 am BT. Those six hours of BT would make a whole lot of difference.

 

Earth sure looks pretty from space though doesn't it.

 

nn0dpx.jpg

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If this Earth was the ground where a previous Kali yuga happened just 4,320,000 years ago as some people suppose, and if there was a previous kali yuga 4,320,000 before that, and another before that, then where is the evidence of this?

 

Have archeologists found any hubcaps and remains of ancient nuclear reactors, computers, cellphones etc. in their digs?

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If this Earth was the ground where a previous Kali yuga happened just 4,320,000 years ago as some people suppose, and if there was a previous kali yuga 4,320,000 before that, and another before that, then where is the evidence of this?

 

Have archeologists found any hubcaps and remains of ancient nuclear reactors, computers, cellphones etc. in their digs?

 

your point is one to think about...the craziness is that if you follow NASA and astronomical science, new theories arise on a daily basis about the age, history and presence of the Earth. Its funny because we can not even grab hold of items that are several thousand of years old, and as many others have already said. God does what he wants...who knows maybe its best if we didn't find evidence of ancient nuclear reactors and such.

 

Another note to ponder on: Is every kaliyug the same, do we go through the same technological advances and eventually kill our intellect, religion and each other. Sometimes I feel we bring about our own judgement day. Did the previous Kaliyug have cell phones, internet, computer and tv or was it different. I really wonder, or does it depend on the type of souls present on the earth at the moment. If anyone has any explanation please share.

 

Jai Shri Krishna

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If this Earth was the ground where a previous Kali yuga happened just 4,320,000 years ago as some people suppose, and if there was a previous kali yuga 4,320,000 before that, and another before that, then where is the evidence of this?

 

Have archeologists found any hubcaps and remains of ancient nuclear reactors, computers, cellphones etc. in their digs?

See LOST and the previous DHARMA Initiative.

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According to the Srimad Bhagavatam, the earth was lifted up out of water and life on earth began by the power of Lord Varahadeva. The earth was barren and life gradually developed on Earth after Lord Varahadeva lifted the earth out of the waters of dissolution at the beginning of the Treta Yuga.

 

People came along and populated the earth after it was formed from solids that came out of the ocean of devastation.

 

Where were the sages of Satya Yuga when the earth was dissolved? Not on the earth, obviously. They came to earth from some place else. This is the story told in the Puranas. What about the story of Matsya, also, which also happened at the end of satya yuga. The earth was devastated and a NEW EARTH arose within this galaxy in the material plane of existence.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj calls a "brahmanda" a "solar system". Not a universe. The universe is big.... big enough to allow for the gradual physical evolution of all kinds of planets and sentient beings evolving from the water and fish stages right up to the human stage of life.

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If this Earth was the ground where a previous Kali yuga happened just 4,320,000 years ago as some people suppose, and if there was a previous kali yuga 4,320,000 before that, and another before that, then where is the evidence of this?

 

Have archeologists found any hubcaps and remains of ancient nuclear reactors, computers, cellphones etc. in their digs?

 

I'm not sure about ancient computers and cellphones, but this article is about the supposed remnants of a nuclear reactor that's approximately 2 BILLION years old:

 

"The remnants of nuclear reactors nearly two billion years old were found in the 1970s in Africa. These reactors are thought to have occurred naturally. No natural reactors exist today, since the relative density of fissile uranium has now decayed below that needed for a sustainable reaction. Uranium oxide remains are visible as the yellowish rock. Oklo by-products are being used today to study the stability of the fundamental constants over cosmological time-scales and to develop more effective means for disposing of human-manufactured nuclear waste.

 

I-4 Nuclear Reactor from Two Billion Years Ago

 

In 1972, a French company imported some uranium ore from Oklo in the Gabon Republic in Africa. Surprisingly the uranium concentration in the ore was as low as spent uranium fuel from a nuclear reactor. The finding led scientists to believe that the uranium had already been used for energy production. This discovery shocked the world and attracted scientists from many countries to go to Oklo for further investigation. The results showed that the uranium mine was an ancient nuclear reactor. The ancient reactor consisted of five hundred tons of utilized uranium ore in six different areas. Its output power was estimated to be approximately one hundred kilowatts. The reactor was perfectly preserved and its layout was very rational. It is estimated that the reactor had been in operation for around 500,000 years. Furthermore, nuclear wastes produced in this reactor had not spread all over the surrounding areas. Instead, they were confined within the separate sections. From the perspective of modern nuclear technology, this ancient reactor used very advanced techniques.

 

According to geological dating, the Oklo uranium mine was formed about 2 billion years ago. Shortly after formation, the nuclear reactor commenced operation. The research results made scientists seriously consider the possibility of prehistoric civilization. Such a nuclear reactor could be a product of a civilization from long ago, although scientists have proposed completely natural mechanisms by which the chain reactions could have taken place.

 

Human beings have only made use of nuclear power for a couple of decades. This discovery raised the intriguing possibility that a technologically more advanced civilization existed two billion years ago and it had advanced knowledge of nuclear fission. But if this assumption were correct, one would ask why such an advanced civilization did not perpetuate its own existence. Instead, it disappeared for unknown reasons, leaving only ancient relics. How should we view such a discovery? A large unaccounted-for time gap exists between two billion years ago and our present historical human civilization. What could have happened during that time?

 

If we neglect relics of prehistoric civilization, there is no way we can broaden the scope of our present knowledge. We will neither know what caused prehistoric civilizations to degenerate, or how they finally came to disappear. Moreover, we should carefully examine whether our current method of scientific development is following the same disastrous road. This is surely a subject worthy of serious consideration."

 

Source

 

http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/index.php?news=1582<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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If this Earth was the ground where a previous Kali yuga happened just 4,320,000 years ago as some people suppose, and if there was a previous kali yuga 4,320,000 before that, and another before that, then where is the evidence of this?

 

Have archeologists found any hubcaps and remains of ancient nuclear reactors, computers, cellphones etc. in their digs?

 

The technological paradigms for each of the yugas are different, 'technology' being at its subtlest during Satya Yugas and being at its grossest during Kali Yugas. I think that all of the major siddhis were fully manifested at birth for human beings living during a Satya Yuga, so for example there was no need for physical metallic rockets/satellites for the purpose of space travel. Just 'lock' onto a specific location in your mind and you are at that specific location instantaneously. So everything that we can accomplish today with our aeroplanes, cellphones, computers etc. could be accomplished and enjoyed during a Satya Yuga through our inherent and NATURAL abilities which were fully manifested at birth during that time but are almost completely latent during this Kali Yuga. Then in Treta Yuga, the knowledge of mantras is abundant. Vimanas move according to mantras, the direction of arrows is controlled by mantras, certain devatas are summoned by certain corresponding mantras etc. So the way that 'technological' advancements occur for human beings living during a Treta Yuga is similar to that of a Satya Yuga, except that things are somewhat less subtle. Then during a Dwapar Yuga, the framework through which technological advancements occur among human beings is through tantric rituals. Knowledge of various tantras is abundant in Dwapar Yugas, but tantra is less subtle than mantra. Then along comes the Kali Yugas and during the Kali Yugas, the basic framework through which our 'technological' advancements are made is through artificial (kritika) means. So I don't think there would strictly HAVE TO be items almost exactly like iPods during previous Kali Yugas (for example), but there would certainly be very similar items during previous Kali Yugas because all knowledge is recycled over and over again. All resources are recycled over and over again. All talent is recycled over and over again. So some inventions which we think is 'unique' to our current time period may not be so unique after all. Check out these hieroglyphics engraved on a ceiling beam suspended high up on a wall in the temple of Abydos in Egypt:

 

ABYDOS-HELICOPTER-PHOTO.jpg

 

Notice that some of the engravings appear to depict 'modern' vehicles such as a helicopter, a tank, a blimp etc. There is nothing new under the sun. What has been, shall be. And what has been done, shall be done.

Also, there might be objects today that we probably wouldn't recognise as being very technologically 'advanced' at all. For example, if you found a quartz crystal inside a cave, you might not think that it's a very technologically 'advanced' object at all, yet in a previous Treta Yuga, people might have used that same quartz crystal to holographically store their memories within it.

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According to the Srimad Bhagavatam, the earth was lifted up out of water and life on earth began by the power of Lord Varahadeva. The earth was barren and life gradually developed on Earth after Lord Varahadeva lifted the earth out of the waters of dissolution at the beginning of the Treta Yuga.

 

 

Boar incarnation, Lord Varahadeva had supposedly appeared during the Svayambhuva devastation which is the first manvantara when the Earth was just created in this morning of Lord Brahma - about 6x71 maha-yugas in the past. Already at this point it's hard to find out in which maha-yuga of Svayambhuva Manu Lord Varahadeva appeared.

Since Brahma's year has 365 days and he lives now for 50x365 days, there must have been even more appearances of Lord Varahadeva.

 

24n09xe.jpg

 

 

1.Svayambhuva beginning of creation, Dhruva Maharaja episode,

descent of the Lord as half-man-half-lion to bless Prahlada Maharaja

2.Svarochisha The Episode of King Suratha

3. Uttama

4.Taamasa the episode of Gajendra, the elephant-devotee

5. Raivata

6. Chaakshusha the churning of the Ocean of milk

7. Vaivasvata present manvantara

http://indiaheritage.org/rendez/article1.htm

 

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Good point, yes, 360 days.

"The Year of Brahma is 360 such days & nights thereby equal to 8640 Million Daiva-Varsha or 3,110,400 Million Earth years (or say 3.11 Trillion Earth Years)"

source: http://.org/index.php?blog=7

 

If Earth is reformed in each day of Brahma, then perhaps in the previous day of Brahma, there was another planet in roughly the same place where our Earth currently is. To the ancient rishis and munis, this was probably considered the previous manifestation of what we would today commonly recognise as the planet Earth. However, to modern astronomers, they might not recognise such a planet as being 'Earth'. And as I've theorised in another thread of mine, each manvantar period could represent a different configuration of continents on our planet's surface. When Varaha lifted Bhudevi (Mother Earth) out of the primeval waters of dissolution with his mighty tusks, he said to Her: "Many times have I carried you like this"

This indicates that the formation of Earth is something that has occurred many times already.

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If Earth is reformed in each day of Brahma, then perhaps in the previous day of Brahma, there was another planet in roughly the same place where our Earth currently is. To the ancient rishis and munis, this was probably considered the previous manifestation of what we would today commonly recognise as the planet Earth. However, to modern astronomers, they might not recognise such a planet as being 'Earth'.....

 

Yes Earth in a more generic sense. And how can we speak in terms of the same Earth anyway? The material world is in constant change. Just as our material body is different every moment because of the movement of the atoms molecules cells etc. that compose it so the Earth is a different Earth at every moment. Nothing here is every exactly the same as anything else. Unlimited variety.

 

Would a new Earth need to occupy the same space in space before we could call it Earth? How would that be determined anyway? Space is not an eternally fixed substance. It's existence is itself illusory, real but temporarily manifested.

 

Perhaps new Earth refers to a similar planet meant for inhabitants of a certain guna combination and with similar climatic conditions ect. Are there not many many other "earth" planets existing simulataneously even now in the middle planetary system?

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Where were the sages of Satya Yuga when the earth was dissolved? Not on the earth, obviously. They came to earth from some place else. This is the story told in the Puranas.

I believe this. All habitation of the various planets takes place from the Prajapatis and under their direction. I believe there are beings whose service it is to seed the earth with it's various lifeforms or species. The Elohim of the Bible which is a plural word and became translated as God. "Let US make man in OUR image".

 

Interplanetary genetic engineers.

 

Where can I read this in the Puranas?

 

I just saw a PBS special call Genious of Apes or something like that that asked the question that since apes and humans share 98% of the same gentic code why such a remarkable difference in developement between humans and apes. And why have not the apes evolved beyond where they are now? They are perplexed by such a question.

 

I believe the answer lies in genetic manipulation by mankinds immediate father/mother. Possibly between apes and some other genetic twist from them to create humans. This may be something they do periodically as well. IOW's humans have been farmed by higher beings.

 

I also believe these same beings are now engaged in mixing humn genetics with those of other beings (aliens) producing hybrids possibly for populating another planet with yet another form of humans.

 

I don't know of course but it is fun to wonder about such things.:ponder:

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I believe this. All habitation of the various planets takes place from the Prajapatis and under their direction. I believe there are beings whose service it is to seed the earth with it's various lifeforms or species. The Elohim of the Bible which is a plural word and became translated as God. "Let US make man in OUR image".

 

Interplanetary genetic engineers.

 

Where can I read this in the Puranas?

 

I just saw a PBS special call Genious of Apes or something like that that asked the question that since apes and humans share 98% of the same gentic code why such a remarkable difference in developement between humans and apes. And why have not the apes evolved beyond where they are now? They are perplexed by such a question.

 

I believe the answer lies in genetic manipulation by mankinds immediate father/mother. Possibly between apes and some other genetic twist from them to create humans. This may be something they do periodically as well. IOW's humans have been farmed by higher beings.

 

I also believe these same beings are now engaged in mixing humn genetics with those of other beings (aliens) producing hybrids possibly for populating another planet with yet another form of humans.

 

I don't know of course but it is fun to wonder about such things.:ponder:

 

2dlr6na.jpg

For Lord Brahma it must be something like a morning ritual to put new planets in his universe, like a municipality is regularly putting new sand into all the sand-boxes of the town's playgrounds and throwing away the used ones to some toxic-waste recycling. After certain amount of time these public sand-boxes are for sure really polluted by dog's muck, chewing gums, plastic wrappings, etc. Similiarly it seems that the planets are getting so drastically polluted by the foolish games of the god-imitators, also known as human civilization, that only a full exchange-service/disposal does its job.

 

Also see:

 

The Great Pacific Garbage Patch

by Jacob Silverman

http://science.howstuffworks.com/great-pacific-garbage-patch.htm

 

"The gyre has actually given birth to two large masses of ever-accumulating trash, known as the Western and Eastern Pacific Garbage Patches, sometimes collectively called the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. The Eastern Garbage Patch floats between Hawaii and California; scientists estimate its size as two times bigger than Texas [source: LA Times]. The Western Garbage Patch forms east of Japan and west of Hawaii. Each swirling mass of refuse is massive and collects trash from all over the world. The patches are connected by a thin 6,000-mile long current called the Subtropical Convergence Zone. Research flights showed that significant amounts of trash also accumulate in the Convergence Zone."

 

2dbpb40.gif

the "Great Pacific Garbage Patch"

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Yes Earth in a more generic sense. And how can we speak in terms of the same Earth anyway? The material world is in constant change. Just as our material body is different every moment because of the movement of the atoms molecules cells etc. that compose it so the Earth is a different Earth at every moment. Nothing here is every exactly the same as anything else. Unlimited variety.

 

Would a new Earth need to occupy the same space in space before we could call it Earth? How would that be determined anyway? Space is not an eternally fixed substance. It's existence is itself illusory, real but temporarily manifested.

 

Perhaps new Earth refers to a similar planet meant for inhabitants of a certain guna combination and with similar climatic conditions ect. Are there not many many other "earth" planets existing simulataneously even now in the middle planetary system?

 

Yes! Very eloquently said, my friend. I wholeheartedly agree with you! Not only is everything that is a part of this material world changing at every moment within every moment, but the atoms which constitute ALL the matter of this material world are composed of 99.9% empty space! And the 0.01% of an atom that has 'something' in it is incessantly popping in and out of existence at every moment! I'm not making this up either. This is what the discoveries of modern science tell us. There is not only unlimited variety, but unlimited variety in unlimited combinations eternally. That is only a fragment of the glory of Krsna! The rishis were correct when they declared that this world is but a transient illusion. Maya. And now the wisdom of the rishis that was shared with ALL of humankind COUNTLESS eons of time ago is being confirmed by the constant discoveries of modern science. We're living in a cosmic phantasm! Move along, there's nothing to see here. Literally! ;)

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Move along, there's nothing to see here. Literally! ;)

Strongly depends on your personal awareness. Could be that others can see how wonderful Krishna must be when seeing how He created everything so perfectly. Unfortunately present humanity's brain can only think so far that everything is defective and came into existence by accident. Thanks to the discoveries of modern science which tell us, God is dead.

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If this Earth was the ground where a previous Kali yuga happened just 4,320,000 years ago as some people suppose, and if there was a previous kali yuga 4,320,000 before that, and another before that, then where is the evidence of this?

 

Have archeologists found any hubcaps and remains of ancient nuclear reactors, computers, cellphones etc. in their digs?

 

where are the ramps used to build the pyramids? Where were the blocks cut, from which quarry, and where is the evidence of any transport.

 

Everything turns to dust, bones, nuclear waste, hubcaps. Find a hubcap in any condition from a 1926 plymoiuth. One can also find woolymammoth bones driven into the side of a huge chunk of grantie dated pre mammal.

 

I saw a bicycle imbedded in a huge maple tree 200 feet up. Kid never came back after he leanded it up against a sapling.

 

Michael Cremo is an archeologist, ask him?

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

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just a note concerning the Egyptian hieroglyphs at Abydos: what appears to be a helicopter and a submarine is a simple case of palitation (the superimposition of one cartouche upon another, combined with erosion) produces this unusual shape. the practice of writing ones name over another (the cartouche) was quite common in ancient egypt as pharaohs would often take credit from pre-existing rulers. Abydos dates to 1500 BC, sorry to say there were no helicopters then, if there were they would have been written about in the texts of Egypt (of which there are over a thousand), and besides the digitally enhanced image you see here is far clearer than the murky original ..........................................................

fundamentalism- where the fun comes before the mental

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