Vaisnava Bible Study - Is Jesus Vaisnava?

[raghu 2]

 

Haribol!

I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to cause anymore of an upstart, but I found something kind of interesting that has a lot to do with this thread.

It's a lost gospel that talks about a man named Isha who came from Israel following a caravan going to India, studied in the Jagannatha Temple in Puri, was thrown out by the priests for associating too much with the "Shudras" (I like Gandhi's name for them better... Harijans... but I digress), and went into the mountains where he learned the message of the Buddha and, after leaving the Buddhist monastery, went to study and meditate with Shaiva gurus. It says that after he went back to the west, he was crucified and the heavens cried out and blackness covered the earth. It says that while he was interred, his guru came to him and raised him up, and he went back to India to initiate others in the cult of the Linga. It's in a Buddhist monastery in the Himalayas... kinda weird... Here's the document:

http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa1.htm

 

 

What an amazing archaeological find! And it was right there on the internet all along.

 

By the way, here is an excerpt from the intro of that home page:

 

 

... He passed his time in several ancient cities of India such as Benares. All loved him because Issa dwelt in peace with Vaishas and Shudras whom he instructed and helped. But the Brahmins and Kshatriyas told him that Brahma forbade those to approach who were created out of his womb and feet. The Vaishas were allowed to listen to the Vedas only on holidays and the Shudras were forbidden not only to be present at the reading of the Vedas, but could not even look at them.

 

Issa said that man had filled the temples with his abominations. In order to pay homage to metals and stones, man sacrificed his fellows in whom dwells a spark of the Supreme Spirit. Man demeans those who labor by the sweat of their brows, in order to gain the good will of the sluggard who sits at the lavishly set board. But they who deprive their brothers of the common blessing shall be themselves stripped of it. Vaishas and Shudras were struck with astonishment and asked what they could perform. Issa bade them "Worship not the idols. Do not consider yourself first. Do not humiliate your neighbor. Help the poor. Sustain the feeble. Do evil to no one. Do not covet that which you do not possess and which is possessed by others."

 

 

This sounds like Christian propaganda to me. And that last part - help the poor, sustain the feeble, etc. Is this "pure devotional service?"

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

Christianity is not the topic. Jesus Christ is. Are you really thinking you are a vaisnava but Jesus Christ doesn't measure up JNdas? Surely you can't think like that.

Jesus Christ or Mohammad may possibly be Vaishnavas in disguise, but I have no real way of knowing if they worshipped Vishnu or not, so I can't say for certain. Their followers certainly do not. As far as Christianity, I see it as a step in the right direction to move society from barbaric to civilized, but I don't see it as Vaishnavism. I do not see any of the key teachings of Vaishnavism present in Christianity. There maybe some random things like "praise the Lord" which are present in every religion going back to aboriginees or African religions. Religion means to worship a God, and that "devotion" will be there everywhere in the world. But I don't see that as better or equal to the teachings of Vaishnava acharyas. When our acharyas refused to accept truth in Advaita, Buddhism, Jainism, Zaorastrianism, Karma-Mimamsa, Shakta, Saurya, Ganapatya, Yoga-darshana, and even Gaudiya Vaishnava Babajis in Vrindavan, I won't honestly think that Christianity is Vaishnavism.

 

 

I understand your feelings. Apparently through a shared prejudice our host allows the aparadha towards Lord Jesus Christ to stand.

And we allow the offensive Hindus to disagree with the Vaishnavas, and the offensive Hare Krishna's to disagree with Sai Baba followers, and the offensive Swaminarayan followers to disagree with the Chaitanya followers, and the offensive Chaitanya followers to disagree with the Madhva followers, and the offensive Madhva followers to disagree with the Prabhupada followers, and the offensive Babaji followers to disagree with the Bhaktisiddhanta followers, and the list goes on forever. Philosophical disagreement is going to exist on a forum for religious discussion. No two religions are going to agree with each other. Even the "all religions are good" people don't agree when their beliefs are disagreed with. You can't have a religious forum without someone being offended.

 

Raghu will complain that the moderator's are partial against him and deleting half his posts, and you will complain that the moderators are partial to him and allowing his "offensive" posts to remain. Neither side will be happy, but thats what happens in a multi-religious forum - and thats why such forums don't really exist on the net without massive moderation.

 

As far as my views being the same as Raghu's, I doubt he would agree. I can appreciate the value of Christianity and all religions without trying to say they are actually following my religion. I see value in the teachings of Christ, and I can appreciate what the good Christians do in the world (minus the conversion and wars and stuff). Likewise I can see the evil in what some bad Hindus do. I am not attached to which religion they come from, but what actions they perform.

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Pranam

I find this strange discussion to say the least, when devotees like Mirabai, a great Krishna bhakta whose bhajan speaks volumes and Tulasidas whose Ramchritra manas has inspired millions to the path of devotion, even they are not considered Vaishnavas in some Gaudiya sampradaya how would Christ who has entirely different tradition and very little in common with Vedic tradition fit in Gaudiya vaishnavism?

Jai Shree Krishna

[LoveroftheBhagavata 0]

 

Pranam

I find this strange discussion to say the least, when devotees like Mirabai, a great Krishna bhakta whose bhajan speaks volumes and Tulasidas whose Ramchritra manas has inspired millions to the path of devotion, even they are not considered Vaishnavas in some Gaudiya sampradaya how would Christ who has entirely different tradition and very little in common with Vedic tradition fit in Gaudiya vaishnavism?

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Pranam Ganeshprasad,

 

You should be careful not to consider ISKCON to be the all and all of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. In fact, for all their international presence, they are just a fraction of the entire tradition which finds its roots and main centres in Bengal, Orissa and in the Vrindavana area of UP. The vast majority of traditional Gaudiyas do not criticize Mirabai, even if we do not follow her since she is not in our lineage. Ditto for Gosvami Tulasidasa, whose Sri Ramacaritamanasa I for one happen to revere, although once again the Bhagavata is for me the topmost pramana. Even in the Gaudiya Matha, they generally consider Tulasidasa to be a genuine Vaishnava and an exemplary Rama-bhakta. Most in ISKCON do not equate these conceptions but that is their business, and they don't quite represent the standard Caitanyaite view.

 

Gosvamiji was initiated in the Rama-mantra (Sri Rama Jaya Rama Jaya Jaya Rama) in the Ramananda sampradaya, a branch of the Sri sampradaya of Ramanujacarya, and his ista-devatas were Sri Sri Sita-Rama, whom we Gaudiyas understand to be expansions of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda. Therefore, bear in mind that what you get from some devotees here is not the mainstream Gaudiya idea. Even JN Prabhu once expressed his appreciations on these forums for the Hanuman Chalisa, which as you are aware, was composed by Tulasidasaji. I hope that this little note just puts back some perspective into the whole discussion.

 

Radhe Radhe

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Pranam LoveroftheBhagavata

 

 

Pranam Ganeshprasad,

 

You should be careful not to consider ISKCON to be the all and all of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. In fact, for all their international presence, they are just a fraction of the entire tradition which finds its roots and main centres in Bengal, Orissa and in the Vrindavana area of UP. The vast majority of traditional Gaudiyas do not criticize Mirabai, even if we do not follow her since she is not in our lineage. Ditto for Gosvami Tulasidasa, whose Sri Ramacaritamanasa I for one happen to revere, although once again the Bhagavata is for me the topmost pramana. Even in the Gaudiya Matha, they generally consider Tulasidasa to be a genuine Vaishnava and an exemplary Rama-bhakta. Most in ISKCON do not equate these conceptions but that is their business, and they don't quite represent the standard Caitanyaite view.

 

Gosvamiji was initiated in the Rama-mantra (Sri Rama Jaya Rama Jaya Jaya Rama) in the Ramananda sampradaya, a branch of the Sri sampradaya of Ramanujacarya, and his ista-devatas were Sri Sri Sita-Rama, whom we Gaudiyas understand to be expansions of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda. Therefore, bear in mind that what you get from some devotees here is not the mainstream Gaudiya idea. Even JN Prabhu once expressed his appreciations on these forums for the Hanuman Chalisa, which as you are aware, was composed by Tulasidasaji. I hope that this little note just puts back some perspective into the whole discussion.

 

Radhe Radhe

 

 

Thank you for your caution, let me make it clear my intention here was not to criticize Gaudya, although I have read in one of Gaudya Guru literature not accepting Mira a pure bhakta.

Merely making a point, and you reinforced it for me “since they do not belong to your lineage you do not follow them“.

So how some one entirely from different tradition even though brings a message of love and forgiveness and yet we find in his name million of turkey get consumed on his birth calibration alone, there sure is something amiss.

Contrast this with Mira or Tulsidas millions get inspiration even today .if they don’t get recognized by those who are arguing for Christ. What is the point in painting Christ as a vaishnav when bulk of his followers would simply laugh at the prospect, that is if they don’t condemn you to eternal hell first.

Jai Shree Krishna

[theist 1]

 

Jesus Christ or Mohammad may possibly be Vaishnavas in disguise, but I have no real way of knowing if they worshipped Vishnu or not, so I can't say for certain. Their followers certainly do not. As far as Christianity, I see it as a step in the right direction to move society from barbaric to civilized, but I don't see it as Vaishnavism. I do not see any of the key teachings of Vaishnavism present in Christianity. There maybe some random things like "praise the Lord" which are present in every religion going back to aboriginees or African religions. Religion means to worship a God, and that "devotion" will be there everywhere in the world. But I don't see that as better or equal to the teachings of Vaishnava acharyas. When our acharyas refused to accept truth in Advaita, Buddhism, Jainism, Zaorastrianism, Karma-Mimamsa, Shakta, Saurya, Ganapatya, Yoga-darshana, and even Gaudiya Vaishnava Babajis in Vrindavan, I won't honestly think that Christianity is Vaishnavism.

 

How about love God with all your being and others as yourself?

 

I can only refer you to Vaisnavism Real and Apparent by Bhaktisiddhanta.

 

 

 

And we allow the offensive Hindus to disagree with the Vaishnavas, and the offensive Hare Krishna's to disagree with Sai Baba followers, and the offensive Swaminarayan followers to disagree with the Chaitanya followers, and the offensive Chaitanya followers to disagree with the Madhva followers, and the offensive Madhva followers to disagree with the Prabhupada followers, and the offensive Babaji followers to disagree with the Bhaktisiddhanta followers, and the list goes on forever. Philosophical disagreement is going to exist on a forum for religious discussion. No two religions are going to agree with each other. Even the "all religions are good" people don't agree when their beliefs are disagreed with. You can't have a religious forum without someone being offended.

 

Yet Christians who have come here and beem offensivew have their posts removed immediately. Which is how it should be. Also witness the banning of Murali when he exposed his classism and obnoxious side towards toy giving. He had showed the same attitude to most everyone here previously for months until he aimed at your good self. Then there is the post of mine that disappeared(one of many) where I posted an anti-Christ article from Sharma and criticized his thinking. That lasted only one day before disappearing. But hey, it's your forum.

 

There is a difference between philosophical disagreement and debate and some offensive troll just ranting and raving irrespectively of the feelings of others. That also comes from the side that I may philosophically agree with.

 

 

Raghu will complain that the moderator's are partial against him and deleting half his posts, and you will complain that the moderators are partial to him and allowing his "offensive" posts to remain. Neither side will be happy, but thats what happens in a multi-religious forum - and thats why such forums don't really exist on the net without massive moderation.

 

As far as my views being the same as Raghu's, I doubt he would agree. I can appreciate the value of Christianity and all religions without trying to say they are actually following my religion. I see value in the teachings of Christ, and I can appreciate what the good Christians do in the world (minus the conversion and wars and stuff). Likewise I can see the evil in what some bad Hindus do. I am not attached to which religion they come from, but what actions they perform.

[RadheRade1657 0]

 

What an amazing archaeological find! And it was right there on the internet all along.

 

By the way, here is an excerpt from the intro of that home page:

 

 

 

This sounds like Christian propaganda to me. And that last part - help the poor, sustain the feeble, etc. Is this "pure devotional service?"

 

They took the written word (you can get it at any website that sells books) and typed it on their website. It's not only on the internet.

Sounds more like the truth to me. Vaishas and Shudras are treated horribly even today in India. They were treated horribly in Buddha's time (only 500 years before Jesus' birth) as well... that's why he preached against the Varna system so much. So, it's Christian propaganda if they point out bad things that Hindus have done in the past, but it's not Vaishnava propaganda if you point out things like the Inquisition? You're such a hypocrite, it's almost funny!

How is helping the poor not a part of devotional sevice? Does the Bhagavatam not say, "Relieving others of their suffering is the highest worship of God" (Srimad Bhagavatam 8.7.44)?

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

Yet Christians who have come here and been offensive have their posts removed immediately.

 

People who come to convert or intentionally offend people are removed immediately. That is regardless of what religion they belong to.

 

 

Also witness the banning of Murali when he exposed his classism and obnoxious side towards toy giving. He had showed the same attitude to most everyone here previously for months until he aimed at your good self.

 

I have never read any of his posts (maybe 5 altogether) so I have no idea whether he offended someone previously. I banned him not because of any philosophical opinion he had, but because he was insulting children whom he had no right to. It had nothing to do with whether or not he offended me. There have been members who have cussed me out here who never got banned. I really couldn't care less whether people congratulate me or offend me on this forum.

 

 

Then there is the post of mine that disappeared(one of many) where I posted an anti-Christ article from Sharma and criticized his thinking. That lasted only one day before disappearing. But hey, it's your forum.

 

I dont know what the post was about, but from the description it looks like you would be inviting people like Raghu to keep arguing with you if you posted something like that. We have all had posts disappear including myself. When it happens I just shrug my shoulders and move on. I could repost it and tell the moderators not to touch my posts, but I don't because I respect their opinion of what is appropriate and what isn't. They are doing the hard work of moderating the forums, so whatever they decide on I agree with it.

 

Raghu has probably had more posts removed than others, and I am sure you see it as fair and he sees it as unfair. If a thread is closed you will complain. If a thread is left open and people disagree with you, you will complain. So basically you want a forum where no one can disagree with you. If Raghu's opinion on the connection between the bible and vaishnavism offends you then put him on your ignore list. He has his right to voice his opinion, and Shvu the atheist has his right to voice his opinion, and the madhva guy has his right to voice his opinion, and all the Gaudiya Vaishnavas have their right to voice their opinions. Thats what a forum is for.

 

In the real world there is no moderator to censor people you disagree with. What do you do in those situations? You walk away and don't listen to them. So why keep listening to Raghu if he offends you so much.

[indulekhadasi 0]

Of course there will be arguments on a forum. Learn to be respectful even if you don't agree with the person. But if there is offensive language no matter who the person is it should get deleted. Jahnava Nitai prabhu is doing a great job with this, what is the problem?

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

Jahnava Nitai prabhu is doing a great job with this, what is the problem?

For the record, I don't deserve any of the credit for this forum because I am hardly involved with it at all. Most of the time I don't even read it, as I have little time to be on the forums or to moderate them. The moderators are the one's who keep the forums together and clean, or as clean as they possibly can with so many differing opinions. They do this as volunteers and really have no reason to take the trouble to do it. If they weren't moderating, these forums would have been closed long ago.

 

Their only real purpose in moderating is to try to minimize insults and arguing as much as possible. In an effort to head off such situations, they will also remove posts or threads that, from experience in the past, they know will go in such a direction. Sometimes they miss these, as they cannot follow the forums all day. I have agreed to let them moderate me as well, to make their job easier. Just today, I had one post removed and another edited.

 

If you feel a post is offensive or should be removed, you should send a PM to "admin5" and it will be looked into by one of the moderators.

[theist 1]

 

People who come to convert or intentionally offend people are removed immediately. That is regardless of what religion they belong to.

 

In quoting me you left off the next sentence where I said I agree with Christians who come here and offend others having their posts removed.

 

Part of being a good forum member should entail not over posting one's views with the purpose of interupting the flow of a particular thread. This has been a constant headache to me when Lord Jesus's name is mentioned as a Vaisnava which was the intent of the Is Jesus a Vaisnava thread started by Her Servant and who has since decided not to particapte in the forum. So we lose him and retain raghu. That is a major loss in my book and I didn't agree with several of Her Servants points either.

 

Even among disagreeing factions there has to be a certain etiqiute. I don't go to any of the many forums set up here @ AF that are obviously geared to certain groups that I know I disagree with and try to impose my views on the participants there. I have never done that. I choose Spiritual Discussions because in theory that is where new folks are most likely to post and I expect them to come as atheists mayavadis assorted religionists, the curious and non-committed etc. Something like a public square. I look for exchange of thought and not just beratment of those I disagree with.

 

 

 

I have never read any of his posts (maybe 5 altogether) so I have no idea whether he offended someone previously. I banned him not because of any philosophical opinion he had, but because he was insulting children whom he had no right to. It had nothing to do with whether or not he offended me. There have been members who have cussed me out here who never got banned. I really couldn't care less whether people congratulate me or offend me on this forum.

 

Yes but in the post where you banned him you also said you don't care if vaisnavas are offended. This is where we totally disagree. Dis-agreeing with a vaisnava is not seen by me as an offensive. And when that happens I believe is it the duty of those that are attempting to take shelter of Vaisnavas to speak up.

 

I know you are not a self promoter. That is one of the many things I respect about you. I also don't care much for praise and blame. I don't do much that is praiseworthy so that is not a problem and as far as blame goes I have tough skin. Those that are regulars here must have noticed that I only get hot when Prabhupada or Christ and other great devotees have mud tossed their way. Nobody here really knows me in the flesh and that is how I like it so I have nothing to protect. But we should speak out and not tolerate slams against our teachers. We should not try for some artifically position of neutrality. I am biased towards the Vaisnava's no doubt but do try to avoid slamming others teachers although the teaching themselves are fair game as are ours. I feel exposing out right cheaters is a duty of all spiritualist even if they appear to be from our own camp, otherwise we shouldn't spend time in criticism as it is then a perverse form of sense gratification and nothing more.

 

 

 

I dont know what the post was about, but from the description it looks like you would be inviting people like Raghu to keep arguing with you if you posted something like that.

 

Yes and that would have been fine because that was the purpose of the thread. The article first appeared on the Sun and my critque followed the article when I reposted here. That was the place and time to discuss the topic and not on Her Servants thread which was meant to actual explore the teaching of Christ as we have them in line with the ideals of Vaisnavaism. That dialouge was never allowed to take place because of the trolling of raghi and a few others.

 

 

 

We have all had posts disappear including myself. When it happens I just shrug my shoulders and move on. I could repost it and tell the moderators not to touch my posts, but I don't because I respect their opinion of what is appropriate and what isn't. They are doing the hard work of moderating the forums, so whatever they decide on I agree with it.

 

I have rarely objected either. But even when privately requesting an explanation no one ever receives a response anyway so what is the point.

 

 

Raghu has probably had more posts removed than others, and I am sure you see it as fair and he sees it as unfair. If a thread is closed you will complain. If a thread is left open and people disagree with you, you will complain. So basically you want a forum where no one can disagree with you.

 

Do you have even one example of these accusations? As I said I choose this forum because there will be people here that don't hold the same view as me. In my little way it is these people I seek hoping to turn a little bit towards personalism. It is the way those disagreements transpire that needs to be better controlled IMO.

 

 

 

If Raghu's opinion on the connection between the bible and vaishnavism offends you then put him on your ignore list. He has his right to voice his opinion, and Shvu the atheist has his right to voice his opinion, and the madhva guy has his right to voice his opinion, and all the Gaudiya Vaishnavas have their right to voice their opinions. Thats what a forum is for.

 

Within a forum there are threads dedicated to specific topics. Raghu and others made their point that they thinks vaisnavism comes from hinduism etc. They all rejected what I posted from Bhaktisiddhanta on the issue. Fine. But a constant drum beat (and you say many of his posts have been deleted:eek:) of the same thing so as to make any other conversation impossible is just cheap spamming and trolling.

 

 

In the real world there is no moderator to censor people you disagree with. What do you do in those situations? You walk away and don't listen to them. So why keep listening to Raghu if he offends you so much.

 

Ciao then. I hope you won't object if I can find some other forum @AF to post on. If so just let me know bro.

[indulekhadasi 0]

 

For the record, I don't deserve any of the credit for this forum because I am hardly involved with it at all. Most of the time I don't even read it, as I have little time to be on the forums or to moderate them. The moderators are the one's who keep the forums together and clean, or as clean as they possibly can with so many differing opinions. They do this as volunteers and really have no reason to take the trouble to do it. If they weren't moderating, these forums would have been closed long ago.

 

Their only real purpose in moderating is to try to minimize insults and arguing as much as possible. In an effort to head off such situations, they will also remove posts or threads that, from experience in the past, they know will go in such a direction. Sometimes they miss these, as they cannot follow the forums all day. I have agreed to let them moderate me as well, to make their job easier. Just today, I had one post removed and another edited.

 

If you feel a post is offensive or should be removed, you should send a PM to "admin5" and it will be looked into by one of the moderators.

Oh, I see.

All glories to Audarya moderators!

indulekhadasi

[Admin5 1]

We do not read everything. You can help us. If you see a post that you feel is offensive, please report it by

 

clicking on "send a private message to admin5" in our profile.

 

We will close this thread Vaisnava Bible Study - Is Jesus Vaisnava?.