Is guru responsible for the sins of his disciples?

[Kulapavana 0]

Srila Prabhupada said on several occasions that as the father is judged by his son, the guru is judged by his disciples.

 

"Similarly, if a spiritual master cannot direct his disciples to become free of sinful activities, he becomes responsible for their sinful acts." (SB 4.20.14, purport)

 

"The spiritual master has to take the responsibility for all the sinful activities of his disciples." (PQPA 6)

[suchandra 1]

 

Srila Prabhupada said on several occasions that as the father is judged by his son, the guru is judged by his disciples.

 

"Similarly, if a spiritual master cannot direct his disciples to become free of sinful activities, he becomes responsible for their sinful acts." (SB 4.20.14, purport)

 

"The spiritual master has to take the responsibility for all the sinful activities of his disciples." (PQPA 6)

There's surely a precise point when someone can be called a disciple of a Vaishnava spiritual master and when someone has overstepped the master-disciple relationship and the guru somehow considers this disciple as having given up the responsibility of being a disciple. To say that I'm a disciple of such and such guru but I don't follow the principles of my guru, what then is the meaning of being a disciple? In sum, a spiritual master is responsible for his disciple's actvities as long the disciple behaves like a disciple. This probably only the guru can decide, is this behaviour still acceptable or is this a break away?

 

Prabhupada: "If the saintly person has got the power to make you from mouse to tiger, then he can convert you again from tiger to mouse. You must always remember this. So by the grace of God, Krishna, you have become so powerful nation, rich, beautiful, educated. By grace of Krishna you have become, but if you forget Krishna, then you are again going to be mouse. Remember that. Nobody will care for you. Just like Englishmen. Englishmen, they established the British Empire, great, powerful, most powerful nation in the world. Now they are not so. Because they misused their power. So you get power, opulence, by the grace of Lord, Krishna. And if you misuse it, then you become again… That is happening. That is the nature’s law. Nature’s law."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.15.20

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Los Angeles, November 30, 1973

[Kulapavana 0]

 

In sum, a spiritual master is responsible for his disciple's actvities as long the disciple behaves like a disciple. This probably only the guru can decide, is this behaviour still acceptable or is this a break away?

 

 

Good point.

[theist 1]

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by suchandra

In sum, a spiritual master is responsible for his disciple's actvities as long the disciple behaves like a disciple. This probably only the guru can decide, is this behaviour still acceptable or is this a break away?

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Good point.

I agree. This point is 99.99 lost today in Christianity and they have come to think of Jesus as their eternal doormat...."I sin and He suffers."

 

Extremely important point. We must'nt follow suit.

[sevabhakta 0]

"Similarly, if a spiritual master cannot direct his disciples to become free of sinful activities, he becomes responsible for their sinful acts." (SB 4.20.14, purport)

 

So far we have looked at this quote from the angle that the spiritual master was unable to direct a disciple to become free, and it is a permanent rebellion. What about the other degrees of the process of "becoming" free of sinful activities.

 

If a spiritual master was able to direct any one disciple to become free of sinful activities, and have it be so immediately, and from that moment on the disciple engaged in pure bhakti sadhana, that person would not sin and little of the Guru's time would be spent dealing with dragging that disciple out of sin and back on track. The Guru may also need to spend LESS TIME with that sadhak and be free to engage with others. So in this example we see how there is no sinful reaction to be responsible for.

 

Largely, we see this is the exception to the rule and most of those who accept discipline are mixed in their following of those instructions but the Guru is always there to inspire even through chastisement. There are many mixed disciples and accidental fall downs and all sorts of reactions and flack the Spiritual Master has to deal with.

 

In the quote above, it clearly states that when a DISCIPLE engages in sinful activities (aka: falls from grace), the spiritual master becomes RESPONSIBLE for those acts.

 

But not to worry, if anyone is ABLE TO RESPOND to the ramifications of those sinful activites it is a Spiritual Master. Only such a Spiritual Master is so capable and responsible that he will accept disciples from a group of people who will most assuredly fall back to sin many times. Only such a person can love you that much.

 

Free of sinful activities is an absolute as well. Once one is free via the path of Bhakti, it is a done deal. So that Spiritual Master is responsible and empowered to continue to show the love of the Supreme Lord through whatever means necessary. Thus responsible and capable to eventually bring that disciple through.

 

For those who do not give up ALL sinful activities IMMEDIATELY, the Spiritual Master gives kind help throughout their probationary period of sadhana bhakti.

 

Hare Krsna

[suchandra 1]

 

For those who do not give up ALL sinful activities IMMEDIATELY, the Spiritual Master gives kind help throughout their probationary period of sadhana bhakti.

 

Hare Krsna

A spiritual master surely doesn't see his disciples as one category, but each and every disciple has an individual relationship. Prabhupada felt greatly obliged to certain devotees who were involved to pave the way for Prabhupada's movement to expand. For example Prabhupada put himself in NY into the situation of being fully dependent upon his first disciples to get anything developed regarding ISKCON to become global. Even when these disciples later on didn't live up to the standards of Prabhupada's parameters, he still would be very thankful and affectionate towards these pioneer devotees and always bestowing his mercy upon them. Of course there were also incidents when Prabhupada made clear that at the initiation ceremony there was something like signing a contract - the disciple so to speak signed an agreement. And when not adhering to this agreement it would become suspended? Looks to me like Prabhupada says below that the master-disciple relationship is terminated when the disciple extravagates. This would result in that the guru is not any more responsible for the sins of his disciple, but the ex-disciple alone has to accept the consequences of his activities.

 

Hridayananda: (translating) He wants to know if the greatest offense is to disobey the guru.

 

Prabhupada: "Yes, that is the first offense. Guror avajña, sruti- sastra-nindanam. Sruti-sastra-nindanah guror avajña. If you accept guru and again disobey him, then what is your position? You are not a gentleman. You promise before guru, before Krishna, before fire, that “I shall obey your order; I shall execute this,” and again you do not do this. Then you are not even a gentleman, what to speak about devotee. This is common sense."

..........................................

 

"A disciple means who voluntarily agrees to be disciplined by the spiritual master. When one becomes disciple, he cannot disobey the order of the spiritual master. Sisya. Sisya, this word, comes from the root sas-dhatu, means “I accept your ruling.” So previously Arjuna has accepted, sisyas te ’ham sadhi mam prapannam: “I am now surrendered to You, and I agree voluntarily to accept Your ruling.” This is the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple. So we have got ten kinds of offenses in chanting the Hare Krishna mantra. So the first offense is guror avajña, means to disobey the orders of guru, spiritual master. One cannot disobey the orders of guru. "

 

Bhagavad-gita 2.11

(with Spanish translator)

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Mexico, February 11, 1975

 

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