Nector from Hari Sauri dasa

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

 

 

Śrīla Prabhupāda introduced the chanting of Hare Krishna immediately, both collectively and individually. As soon as some people became attracted to the chanting and they started taking a serious interest in Krihna consciousness, then he introduced them to chanting on beads.

 

We have seen the pictures of the devotees when they started coming to the store-front at 26 2nd Ave., he got them to make sets of beads for themselves, and then very quickly, on Janmastami day September 6, 1966, he initiated them into the chanting of the holy names. Of course that is what initiation is all about–it means that one’s individual chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra is sanctioned or empowered by the spiritual master.

 

When we chant Hare Krishna that means that literally we have Krishna dancing on our tongues. Through public kirtana Krishna is available to everybody. Nevertheless, if one wants to be really serious about chanting, then the process is to take initiation, because it is at that point that one makes an actual commitment to the Supreme Lord to begin rendering service to Him. Casual chanting is also beneficial but one makes more rapid advancement when one makes a formal commitment.

 

We see then that within two months Śrīla Prabhupāda started to initiate devotees. There is a whole process to initiation. In the beginning Śrīla Prabhupāda was doing it all by himself:

 

 

 

he was picking the candidates, approving them;

he was giving them their new spiritual names,

he was chanting the first round on their beads,

he was doing the fire yajna.

 

In this way he began to guide them into the science of chanting. And then after a few more months then he started to give brahṁana initiation. Again chanting, but the gayatri mantra this time, with Prabhupāda sitting personally with the candidate and speaking the mantra into their ear, and giving them their Brahmana thread.

 

In this way Prabhupāda began the process, the sadhana of chanting. Casual chanting was also going on, but it was in this very specific science of sadhana bhakti that Śrīla Prabhupāda was interested in getting people committed to.

 

So then what happened? Krishna consciousness started to expand. By early 1968 there were five temples in N. America and there were about 50-60 initiated devotees. Then from 1968–1971, four years, at the end of 1971 there were nearly 60 temples, and there were about 600 initiated devotees. Kṛṣṇa consciousness had spread from America to Europe; Śrīla Prabhupāda went to Africa; he went back to India with a large group of devotees; Australia and Japan started up etc… Krishna consciousness suddenly exploded. It increased ten times its size in four years. And then from 1971–1977 the number of disciples increased from 600 to over 5,000, and the number of temples went from 60 to 108.

 

This rapid expansion prompted Śrīla Prabhupāda to introduce some innovations into the whole process of initiating people into the chanting of the holy names. He started to delegate all the different aspects of the process of giving initiation. By 1968 he had made a few Brahmana disciples and had started to install Deities. He also started structuring ISKCON; we see that the first real asrama structures started growing up from 1968 onwards, with the appearance of New Vrindaban, and then some of the bigger temples like Los Angeles. The brahmacari, brahmacarini and grhastha asramas became distinct, and by 1970-71 Śrīla Prabhupāda started giving sannyasa initiation to several devotees.

 

Prabhupāda therefore devised some systems to help him to cope with the very rapid expansion of ISKCON around the world, and to facilitate that expansion also. It became obvious that he couldn’t travel to every single temple. But people were joining in all these places, and they wanted initiation. So Prabhupāda started to delegate the responsibilities of giving initiation to some of his disciples.

 

He started something quite revolutionary–giving initiations through the mail. I don’t know whether SBSST ever did that but Prabhupāda was doing it. He instructed the temple presidents that “Now whoever you recommend and whose name you send to me, I will accept them.” He accepted them without even seeing them. He started having the presidents perform the fire yajnas; and as soon as he got someone a little qualified as his personal secretary, he delegated to him the business of choosing the names. Just like when I got initiated in 1972 in Sydney.

 

There were about sixteen of us, Śrīla Prabhupāda was personally there and when each candidate came up, Prabhupāda was asking his secretary ‘Now what is his name?” So the system was that the secretary, or at that time his Sanskrit editor Pradyumna prabhu was on his party, had some books with different names of Krishna or Radharani, or the Visnu-sahasra-nama etc. Whatever the beginning letter of the candidate’s name was, he would find an equivalent Sanskrit name.

 

For example, my karmi name was Denis Harrison, and when I grew up everyone used to call me Harry, because my name was Harrison. When I joined the temple I was Bhakta Harry.

 

So when I got initiated, because my name was Harri-son, the secretary, Shyamasundar prabhu, picked out the name ‘Hari-sauri.’ Similarly Bhakta Phillip became Partha, Bhaktin Anne became Ambika, and so forth. [There were one or two occasions, fairly rare, where it did occur that Prabhupāda didn’t actually accept the name the secretary gave. In Vrndāvana in 1975, at Janmastami time, Bhakta Richard from Australia was accepted for initiation. When he came up the secretary gave his name. And Prabhupāda looked at him and he shook his head and said, “No.” And he gave a name of his own choosing–“Bhagavat Asraya.” So there were one or two occasions when Prabhupāda wouldn’t go along with what the secretary picked out, but on the whole that was the system. The point was that the secretary was actually doing that.]

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

 

Still for a while Prabhupāda continued to chant the first round on the new initiates’ beads. The beads would then be sent in the mail along with the acceptance letter.

 

Similarly he delegated the responsibility of awarding the gayatri mantra, second initiation. Even without seeing the candidates, Śrīla Prabhupāda was accepting the recommendations of the temple presidents, then, for the men at least, Prabhupāda would chant on their sacred threads, and they would also be mailed; and for chanting the mantra in their ear, then Prabhupāda did something else a little revolutionary. He started doing it through his separated energy–he made a tape recording and he sent that cassette to every temple. Every temple president had a cassette of Śrīla Prabhupāda chanting the gayatri mantra which was played in the ear of the new second initiate and that was as good as hearing the gayatri mantra from Śrīla Prabhupāda himself. Separated energy.

 

In this way then Śrīla Prabhupāda was able to expand this movement very rapidly all over the world. But by 1972 there were so many people joining that it even became troublesome to do it through the mail, at least with respect to chanting on the beads. So even that function Śrīla Prabhupāda started to delegate. At the beginning of 1973 Prabhupāda wrote to Revatinandan Swami, who was at that time probably the only sannyasi in Europe, with a solution to this problem:

 

Bombay

4 January, 1973

73-01-04

My Dear Revatinandana,

 

Please accept my blessings. Just now I have received some more requests for giving first initiation from Dhananjaya, and now I am receiving weekly not less than ten to fifteen such requests from new students. So it is becoming very expensive to send so many sets of beads such long distance, and it has become little bothersome for me also, so I think now you may be appointed by me to give first initiations to new disciples by chanting on their beads on my behalf. In America Kirtanananda Swami is going that. So now if there are two of you that will give me great relief. Kirtanananda will chant on the beads for new devotees in America, Canada, like that, you can chant on the beads for the European continent new disciples. They shall, of course, still be considered as my disciples, not that they shall become your disciples, but you will be empowered by me to chant their beads and that is the same effect of binding master and disciple as if I were personally chanting. They may continue to send me their letters of request, along the President’s recommendation, and I shall give them name and it will be entered by my Secretary in our records, only I will send my letter of reply to you and you will purchase beads there and chant them and send, along with my letter to the new initiates. Is that all right?

I shall continue to deal with the matter of second initiations. The sacred threads do not require so much postage to send airmail.”

A similar letter also sent to Kirtanananda Swami the next day. The following month Śrīla Prabhupāda arrived in Australia. When he did initiations, even though he was personally present, he had Madhudvisa Swami chant on many of the beads.

 

Thus we see that Prabhupāda delegated all the different aspects of the process of giving initiation to his disciples except one: the recommendation, the application, had to come to Prabhupāda and he had to send a letter back approving it. Then in 1977 that also changed, and even that function Śrīla Prabhupāda delegated. What happened was that Śrīla Prabhupāda got very, very sick at the Mayapur festival in 1977. He did do one big initiation ceremony, but he never really recovered from that illness. So around about May-time, Prabhupāda actually stopped giving initiations.

 

For a couple of months, although new people were joining, nobody was getting initiated. This had happened previously that when Prabhupāda had gotten very sick he temporarily suspended giving initiations, because of course, when the spiritual master gives initiation he gets so much of the karmic effect from the disciples; generally of course that goes through to Kishnaa and most of it gets burnt up but there is some effect on the guru also. I saw that whenever Prabhupāda gave a big initiation, just afterwards he would get some kind of physical illness. So on one or two occasions when he got really seriously ill, he stopped giving initiations until he had recovered.

 

In mid-May of 1977 then, Prabhupāda was in Hrishikesh. Then he took a turn for the worse, and they rushed back to Vrndāvana and it seemed like Prabhupāda was going to leave at any moment. That was the week that he made his will. Prabhupāda said all the GBCS should come. When they arrived Prabhupāda told them, “Now, if you have any questions about anything that is not clear, you meet together, you formulate your questions, and then you come to me and I will answer them.” So they did that on May 28. And one of the questions that they asked was, “How will the process of initiations go on after your departure?” Prabhupāda made it very clear, he said he would name some people, and he said “When I give the instruction, then they will become regular gurus.” Whoever they initiate, they will be their disciples, and he used this phrase, that they will be “disciple of my disciple.” And he also said, “They will be my grand disciples.”

 

So that was very clear. Everyone understood perfectly what was going to happen after Prabhupāda left the planet. And of course it was what Śrīla Prabhupāda had been telling was going to happen since the last ten years. It wasn’t anything revolutionary or mysterious. Prabhupāda definitively stated it for the final time.

 

There was however, one remaining problem, that whilst Prabhupāda was still on the planet, candidates that were coming and he wasn’t giving initiations. In early July Śrīla Prabhupāda meant with Tamal Krishna Goswami, his secretary, and he told him, “Now I am going to give you some names and these people will act on my behalf to give initiation.” And so on July 9th the letter was sent, and that named eleven senior disciples, who Prabhupāda said would now be responsible for giving initiations to the new candidates.

 

As I have already explained, all the functions of initiations had already been delegated to his disciples, but the significant part about this one was that it was the final delegation–that Prabhupāda said that now, the new candidates need no longer write to me and the recommendations don’t have to come to me. Rather they write to one of these eleven men, whoever is nearest, and if they accept them, then they become initiated. At the same time he said they will still be my disciples. And the reason why Prabhupāda said that was because previously he had said, on May 28, and also prior to that, that there was an etiquette that as long as the spiritual master is on the planet, then the disciples, who may be doing the preaching, bring the new candidates to him:

 

Letter to Tusta Krsna Swami, December 2, 1975:

 

“Keep trained very rigidly, and then you are bona fide guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bona fide spiritual master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely; that will make me and Krishna very happy.”

 

Śrīla Prabhupāda therefore observed that etiquette.

 

Its clear from this how Prabhupāda delegated to his disciples all of these different aspects of the process for giving initiation into the chanting of the holy names. From the very beginning of ISKCON’s existence he started doing it, and the letter from July was just a final delegation, that’s all. It was in the specific context of Śrīla Prabhupāda still being on the planet but not doing the process himself. It was with the understanding, finalized on May 28, that when he disappeared, then the process of initiation, the acceptance of disciples, that would go to his disciples completely

By Hari-sauri Dasa

 

Hari Sauri Prabhu also used to share the driving of the Hare Krishna bus (only for a short time on the way to Adelaide) with Gauragopala dasa in 1972

 

 

 

 

 

[Svarupa 0]

 

We see then that within two months Śrīla Prabhupāda started to initiate devotees. There is a whole process to initiation. In the beginning Śrīla Prabhupāda was doing it all by himself:

 

 

he was picking the candidates, approving them;

he was giving them their new spiritual names,

he was chanting the first round on their beads,

he was doing the fire yajna.

 

 

In this way he began to guide them into the science of chanting. And then after a few more months then he started to give brahṁana initiation. Again chanting, but the gayatri mantra this time, with Prabhupāda sitting personally with the candidate and speaking the mantra into their ear, and giving them their Brahmana thread.

 

In this way Prabhupāda began the process, the sadhana of chanting. Casual chanting was also going on, but it was in this very specific science of sadhana bhakti that Śrīla Prabhupāda was interested in getting people committed to.

 

So then what happened? Krishna consciousness started to expand. By early 1968 there were five temples in N. America and there were about 50-60 initiated devotees. Then from 1968–1971, four years, at the end of 1971 there were nearly 60 temples, and there were about 600 initiated devotees. Kṛṣṇa consciousness had spread from America to Europe; Śrīla Prabhupāda went to Africa; he went back to India with a large group of devotees; Australia and Japan started up etc… Krishna consciousness suddenly exploded. It increased ten times its size in four years. And then from 1971–1977 the number of disciples increased from 600 to over 5,000, and the number of temples went from 60 to 108. .]

 

Those pioneering days where very special and lets face it, those who got initiated by Srila Prabhupada were very fortunate regarless of the sins. I remember when Srila Prabhupada left this world one devotee (Subhabati dasa) said to one God brother ' Well, at least we made it, we got intiated by Prabhupada'

 

 

It would only be 30 years later the significance of what he said made sense to me. So many came after Prabhupada had left this world only to take intaiation off his disciples who the 'new devotees in the late 70s and 80s ' treated as if they were Prabhupada. That was not to be so and many devotees were bewildered by the fall down of their guru who they treated as Prabhupada, some even committed sucide. Who's fault is it? Why did Subhabati prabhu and his godbrothers get the 'real deal, the genuin item' while those after Prabhupada's disappearance mostly got the 'raw deal and only clever imitators? Was it Karma? was it <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place>Krishnas</st1:place> mercy? Apparently we all get what we deserve, is this why some got Prabhupada and others got madmen like Jayatirtha and others who fell away like Bhavananda, Ramisvara, Bhagavan etc?

 

 

Of course some were ‘destined’ to get Hirdayananda Swami or Jayapartarka Swami who never fell down and not get cheated. Is it our karma or spiritual sincerity and alertness that sends us to the genuine Guru, while those who are not genuine, alert and qualified to be a disciple, go to the imitators and pretenders who put on a good charismic show? It's a difficult one to understand, or is it? If you want a real diamond, you first must have some Knowledge of what a diamond is so you do not get cheated. If thats the case, then those who followed the charisma of Bhavananda and others instead of 'spiritual qualities', deserved to be cheated because they did not see behind the fascade of immiatation - Any comments?

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

Maybe Sabo’s prophetic words in 1977 was right ‘We made it! At least we got initiated by Srila Prabhupada.

[realist 0]

 

Maybe Sabo’s prophetic words in 1977 was right ‘We made it! At least we got initiated by Srila Prabhupada.<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

Sabo's prophetic words are selfish, how can Prabhupada's movement spread without his disciples taking their own disciples and becoming responsible to carry on Prabhupadas mission?! Lord Chaitanyas Movement will spread with this generation and if not, then another generation will emerge and take the credit and the baton of responsibility. Prabhupada's disciples where given the chance to bath in Krishnas glory and they blew it. In fact those early gurus where victims of their own demands to be glorified like Prabhupada. How can they expect others to follow when they can't follow Prabhupada themselves.

 

Lets hear real prophetic words from the great thiest and others out there who study the teachings of Lord Chaitanya and Prabhupada

[Guruvani 0]

 

Sabo's prophetic words are selfish, how can Prabhupada's movement spread without his disciples taking their own disciples and becoming responsible to carry on Prabhupadas mission?

They don't have to take their own disciples.

They can do just like ISKCON always did when senior devotees helped new devotees understand the culture of the KC movement.

 

No formal initiation is necessary.

They don't need to accept disciples.

They aren't qualified to accept disciples until they can become Sat guru to the disciple.

They can't become Sat guru until they are self-realized in truth and established in the eternal lila of Krishna.

Until then, all they can be is ritviks.

[realist 0]

 

No formal initiation is necessary.

.

 

I cannot agree with you here because it is important to find a genuin Guru and take initiation eventually. One can follow the teachings of Srila Prabhupada but they cannot become his direct disciple, THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. We must seek out a bonafide representative of him to enter into the Parampara line of succession. Such devotees do exist but are very rare. I do understand this fact at least. It depends on our sincerity. If we are genuinly honest and serious, then a bonafide guru will find us.

[Guruvani 0]

 

I cannot agree with you here because it is important to find a genuin Guru and take initiation eventually. One can follow the teachings of Srila Prabhupada but they cannot become his direct disciple, THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. We must seek out a bonafide representative of him to enter into the Parampara line of succession. Such devotees do exist but are very rare. I do understand this fact at least. It depends on our sincerity. If we are genuinly honest and serious, then a bonafide guru will find us.

 

But, be careful.

In ISKCON you could end up with a sad guru instead of a Sat Guru.

[theist 1]

This sentence illustrates the problem I have with the Iskcon conception.

 

 

When we chant Hare Krishna that means that literally we have Krishna dancing on our tongues. Through public kirtana Krishna is available to everybody. Nevertheless, if one wants to be really serious about chanting, then the process is to take initiation, because it is at that point that one makes an actual commitment to the Supreme Lord to begin rendering service to Him. Casual chanting is also beneficial but one makes more rapid advancement when one makes a formal commitment.

 

I see it that one does not become secome serious by taking initiation but rather the actual serious commitment to the Supreme Lord by rendering service to Him IS the initiation.

 

The actual connection to the spiritual master is marked by a sincere commitment to serve the Lord. That change of heart, change of dedication, is the effect of the bhakti-shakti one imbibes from association with pure devotee of Krsna. Fire sacrifices are a dime a dozen.

 

Nothing wrong in following the tradition and manifesting a form in this world of the devotional mood by such yajnas. It is beautiful in fact and gives a useless, tangible structure that we in the beginning can more easily latch on to.

 

Just flippantly waving off tradition as too much ado (bother) about nothing is just the mode of ignorance.

 

But speaking of the ceremony as the actual initiation is extremely external. One should know well the difference after 35 or 40 years of involvement in Krsna consciousness. In fact the difference should be made clear to those about to undergo the ceremony at the time as to properly direct the line of their further realiztions. One wonders at the motive not to do so.

 

The tone of much of the above sounds too much like the Christians who after taking water baptism consider themselves now eternally saved and guarunteed of heaven. Not for my taste. I consider it dangerous.

 

Better and safer to consider everyone else saved and ourselves in the position of always seeking the sincerity that alludes us. We are lower than the truly initiated and offer our respects to them.

 

Beware of complacency and the feelings of premature attainment and securtiy. It is another trap set by Mayadevi.

[Svarupa 0]

 

I cannot agree with you here because it is important to find a genuin Guru and take initiation eventually. One can follow the teachings of Srila Prabhupada but they cannot become his direct disciple, THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. We must seek out a bonafide representative of him to enter into the Parampara line of succession. Such devotees do exist but are very rare. I do understand this fact at least. It depends on our sincerity. If we are genuinly honest and serious, then a bonafide guru will find us.

 

True. And Guruvani has made a reasonable point also, once burnt twice shy as the saying goes however, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

One does not have to be a pure devotee at birth to eventually become a great Vaisnava Guru in Lord Chaitanya's Movement. Devotees like Hari Sauri prabhu are very inspiring. The lesson is, one must test their guru and not blindly follow out of fear as what happen with many devotees in the 80s and 90s. If one allows themelves to be cheated then their naviety and spiritual immaturity is also to blame for following an unqualified Swami or Guru in the first place.

 

There were so many bogus gurus and sects around in the 60s and 70s but devotees came to Prabhupada. The test today is also there except one must see if their choice of guru in Vaisnavism is the 'real deal'. It takes two to tango as is said. The guru must be qualified and so must the disciple who chooses that guru.

 

 

[Svarupa 0]

 

 

 

I like this photo

 

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Beware of complacency and the feelings of premature attainment and securtiy. It is another trap set by Mayadevi.

 

Absolutely!! These false feelings of smug superiority are what lead to Vaishnava aparadha (whether they be Gaudiya Vaishnavas or Christian Vaishnavas or what-have-you) and fall-down.

[halavapada 0]

 

They aren't qualified to accept disciples until they can become Sat guru to the disciple.

They can't become Sat guru until they are self-realized in truth and established in the eternal lila of Krishna.

 

Can you please explain how you will know when "they" become a Sat guru, when they are self-realized in truth, and when they are established in the eternal lila? Is it up to you (guruvani) to decide if they are qualified, or is it the disciples decision?

 

On the same line: how did you know that Srila Prabhupada was sat guru, self-realized in truth and established in the eternal lila?

[Guruvani 0]

 

Can you please explain how you will know when "they" become a Sat guru, when they are self-realized in truth, and when they are established in the eternal lila? Is it up to you (guruvani) to decide if they are qualified, or is it the disciples decision?

 

On the same line: how did you know that Srila Prabhupada was sat guru, self-realized in truth and established in the eternal lila?

 

Trust me.

I know.

 

Sat Gurus don't play second fiddle to a corrupt and defunct bureaucracy that is offending the acharya of the mission.

 

Sat gurus are real acharyas not puppet acharyas or zonal acharyas or other such fake acharyas like are playing God in ISKCON.

 

Sat gurus don't commit guru aparadha and Vaishnava aparadha, all of which all the phony gurus in ISKCON are guilty of.

[Guruvani 0]

 

In mid-May of 1977 then, Prabhupāda was in Hrishikesh. Then he took a turn for the worse, and they rushed back to Vrndāvana and it seemed like Prabhupāda was going to leave at any moment. That was the week that he made his will. Prabhupāda said all the GBCS should come. When they arrived Prabhupāda told them, “Now, if you have any questions about anything that is not clear, you meet together, you formulate your questions, and then you come to me and I will answer them.” So they did that on May 28. And one of the questions that they asked was, “How will the process of initiations go on after your departure?” Prabhupāda made it very clear, he said he would name some people, and he said “When I give the instruction, then they will become regular gurus.” Whoever they initiate, they will be their disciples, and he used this phrase, that they will be “disciple of my disciple.” And he also said, “They will be my grand disciples.”

He forgot to mention that Srila Prabhupada's first response to the question was that "I will appoint officiating acharyas" and Tamal said "Is that ritvik acharya" and Srila Prabhupada said "ritvik, yes".

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

I may not be the best judge of character, but when I saw Hari Sauri Prabhu lecture at the Prabhupada Festival in L.A. in May, he struck me as humble (not false humility, but a down-to-earth practicality--largely devoid of pretense) and sincere (if a bit long-winded ).

[Guruvani 0]

 

I may not be the best judge of character, but when I saw Hari Sauri Prabhu lecture at the Prabhupada Festival in L.A. in May, he struck me as humble (not false humility, but a down-to-earth practicality--largely devoid of pretense) and sincere (if a bit long-winded ).

 

I never judge anyone by external experience.

If they have written words to expose their inner workings, then no amount of good acting can hide the truth.

 

I don't doubt that he is a cut above an ordinary karmi meat-eater.

But, he is an ISKCON cronie - a GBC buffoon.

 

I don't care much for the party-liners.

They don't get very high ratings in my book.

 

The guys are very eager to show pictures of themselves massaging the body of Srila Prabhupada to get some prestige and esteem from the ignorant newcomers, but I only look at the raw, naked truth beyond all these pretenses.

 

Fact is, he is a GBC yes-man and I think he has got serious spiritual issues as such.

 

ISKCON is a joke and he is just another ISKCON joker.

[theist 1]

 

Absolutely!! These false feelings of smug superiority are what lead to Vaishnava aparadha (whether they be Gaudiya Vaishnavas or Christian Vaishnavas or what-have-you) and fall-down.

 

Not too thinly veiled. Someday on an appropriate thread maybe you can explain what a Christian Vaisnava is. Sounds like another false designation to me.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Not too thinly veiled. Someday on an appropriate thread maybe you can explain what a Christian Vaisnava is. Sounds like another false designation to me.

 

Until later, let's just say: A Vaishnava is as a Vaishnava does. If it walks like a Vaishnava, if it talks like a Vaishnava, if it breathes like a Vaishnava, there's a good chance it's a Vaishnava--regardless of how it is dressed or in which country it was born.