The correct understanding of creation

[Vigraha 0]

 

 

 

 

In Bhag. 2.5.19, Lord Brahma states:

 

 

karya-karana-kartrtve dravya-jnana-kriyasrayah badhnanti nityada muktam mayinam purusam gunah

 

"These three modes of material nature, being further manifested as matter, knowledge, and activities, put the eternally transcendental living entity under conditions of cause and effect and make him responsible for such activities."

The key synonyms are: badhnanti--conditions, nityada--eternally, muktam--transcendental, and purusam--the living entity.

In this text of the Bhagavatam, we find Lord Brahma clearly stating that the original state of the soul is nityada-mukta, or eternally liberated. But upon turning from Krsna, the soul is bound by the material energy. This refutes the theory that the jivas in the material world are eternally conditioned in the sense of never having had a relationship with Krsna. In his purport,

Srila Prabhupada - "Because they are between the internal and external potencies, the eternally transcendental living entities are called the marginal potency of the Lord. Factually, the living entities are not meant to be so conditioned by material energy, but due to their being affected by the false sense of lording it over the material energy, they come under the influence of such potency and thus become conditioned by the three modes of material nature. This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant."

So here we have the true meaning of the term nitya-baddha (eternally conditioned), explained by Srila Prabhupada and confirmed in the Bhagavatam itself. Lord Brahma clearly says that the living entity in the material world is a nitya-mukta soul (nityada muktam purusam) that has come under the influence of the material modes of nature. All souls are originally nitya siddha, but some come to the material world and appear as if eternally ignorant. Significantly, Srila Prabhupada says that the "external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him."

Second Canto: Sukadeva Goswami

 

In Bhag. 2.5.19 (above), we learned that the soul is originally nityada-mukta (eternally liberated). In text 2.10.6, Sukadeva Goswami gives the classic definition of mukti:

muktir hitvanyatha rupam sva-rupena vyavasthitih

The synonyms are: muktih--liberation, hitva--giving up, anyatha-- otherwise, rupam--form, sva- rupena--in constitutional form, vyavasthitih--permanent situation.

Srila Prabhupada's translation is: "Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living being after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle material bodies."

In his purport to 2.10.6 -,

Srila Prabhupada - "...Some of the conditioned souls, who follow the transcendental sound in the form of the Vedic literatures and are thus able to go back to Godhead, attain spiritual and original bodies after quitting the conditional gross and subtle bodies. The material conditional bodies develop out of the living entities' forgetfulness of their relationship with Godhead, and during the course of the cosmic manifestation, the conditioned souls are given a chance to revive their original status of life with the help of revealed scriptures, so mercifully compiled by the Lord in His different incarnations."

So if we accept that the conditioned souls in this material world were originally nityada-mukta, as stated in text 2.5.19, and also accept the definition of mukti given in text 2.10.6, it is clear the that jiva originally had a spiritual body and relationship with Krsna. This conclusion is definitely in line with the above purport by Srila Prabhupada, who speaks of "spiritual and original bodies," the jivas' "forgetfulness of their relationship with Godhead," and the conditioned souls "being given a chance to revive their original status of life." Thus, my view (once we were with Krsna), the Bhagavatam verses 2.5.19 and 2.10.6, taken directly, and Srila Prabhupada's translations and purports, taken directly, are harmonious.

Third Canto: Lord Kapila

In the Third Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, we find the following verse:

 

 

yan-mayayoru-guna-karma-nibandhane 'smin samsarike pathi

caranti carams tad-abhisramena nasta-smrtih punar ayam

pravrnita lokam yuktya kaya mahad-anugraham antarena

 

"The human soul further prays: The living entity is put under the influence of material nature and continues a hard struggle for existence on the path of repeated birth and death. This conditional life is due to his forgetfulness of his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, without the Lord's mercy, how can he again engage in the transcendental loving service to the Lord." (Bhag. 3.31.15).

 

In 1972, in response to a letter from his Australian disciples, Srila Prabhupada dictated a brief essay entitled 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic.' Srila Prabhupada explains that the soul is never actually separated from Krishna, but only dreams of such separation.

 

“We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In a dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the king discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over the 'seen' disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position . . . We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by maya [illusion]. Formerly we were with Krishna in his lila or sport. But this covering of maya may be very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has become a moment only”.

 

 

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Whatever floats your boat, Prabhu. :\

 

I prefer to think of myself as eternally-bound. I like to think that Gurudev came here for a reason--to bring me and those like me (back) to Goloka.

 

If I'm eternally liberated (or think of myself that way), then this whole Guru-Disciple thing we're doing is just a song-and-dance (which it may be, but I'm trying to take a more grave view of it).

[Guruvani 0]

 

In this text of the Bhagavatam, we find Lord Brahma clearly stating that the original state of the soul is nityada-mukta, or eternally liberated. But upon turning from Krsna, the soul is bound by the material energy. This refutes the theory that the jivas in the material world are eternally conditioned in the sense of never having had a relationship with Krsna. In his purport,

 

He we go again twisting, changing and distorting.

 

In the translation it says the living entity is eternally "transcendental".

 

Then Vigraha changes that to eternally "liberated".

 

So, he lies.

he cheats and he distorts.

 

All jivas are always transcendental even when they are conditioned.

 

Right now all our souls are actually transcendental, but we are in illusion.

 

The soul is a particle of the chit shakti of Krishna.

The soul is a transcendental energy by constitution.

 

It doesn't matter if the soul is transcendental if he identifies with matter.

 

So, the lies, cheating and distortions are starting all over again to satsify the agenda of the dishonest efforts of the person behind this topic.

 

The verse says:

 

 

These three modes of material nature, being further manifested as matter, knowledge and activities, put the eternally transcendental living entity under conditions of cause and effect and make him responsible for such activities.

 

 

 

Vigraha has misrepresented that verse by saying:

 

In this text of the Bhagavatam, we find Lord Brahma clearly stating that the original state of the soul is nityada-mukta, or eternally liberated.

 

He has changed the meaning of the verse.

 

The verse doesn't say the souls are "eternally liberated".

It says they are eternally transcendental.

 

Many transcendental jiva souls are caught up in illusion.

 

We cannot override the shastric conception of eternally conditioned souls with this false translation of Vigraha which attempts to erase the concept of NITYA BADDHA jivas from the shastra.

 

If Vigraha were correct in his misinterpretation of this verse, then the shastra would contradict itself with the conception that there is any such thing as an eternally conditioned soul.

 

We have all seen the concept of eternally conditioned souls in the books many times.

 

Therefore, Vigraha is wrong.

He is back to his old tricks and he should be stopped.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.5.19

 

kārya-kāraṇa-kartṛtve

dravya-jñāna-kriyāśrayāḥ

badhnanti nityadā muktaḿ

māyinaḿ puruṣaḿ guṇāḥ

 

SYNONYMS

kārya — effect; kāraṇa — cause; kartṛtve — in activities; dravya — material; jñāna — knowledge; kriyā-āśrayāḥ — manifested by such symptoms; badhnanti — conditions; nityadā — eternally; muktam — transcendental; māyinam — affected by material energy; puruṣam — the living entity; guṇāḥ — the material modes.

 

 

TRANSLATION

These three modes of material nature, being further manifested as matter, knowledge and activities, put the eternally transcendental living entity under conditions of cause and effect and make him responsible for such activities.

 

 

PURPORT

Because they are between the internal and external potencies, the eternally transcendental living entities are called the marginal potency of the Lord. Factually, the living entities are not meant to be so conditioned by material energy, but due to their being affected by the false sense of lording it over the material energy, they come under the influence of such potency and thus become conditioned by the three modes of material nature. This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant. Such is the wonderful action of māyā, or external energy manifested as if materially produced. By the covering power of the material energy, the material scientist cannot look beyond the material causes, but factually, behind the material manifestations, there are adhibhūta, adhyātma and adhidaiva actions, which the conditioned soul in the mode of ignorance cannot see. The adhibhūta manifestation entails repetitions of births and deaths with old age and diseases, the adhyātma manifestation conditions the spirit soul, and the adhidaiva manifestation is the controlling system. These are the material manifestations of cause and effect and the sense of responsibility of the conditioned actors. They are, after all, manifestations of the conditioned state, and the human being's freedom from such a conditioned state is the highest perfectional attainment.

 

 

It clearly says that the jivas in question are coming from the tatastha or the marginal plane.

The eternal associates of the Lord in Goloka are not on the marginal plane.

They are securely sheltered in the internal plane of hladini shakti the internal pleasure potency of the Lord.

 

Whenever we hear about marginal jivas we are hearing about jivas that are coming out of the tatastha-shakti.

These marginal jivas do not have the full blessing the internal potency of the Lord.

When they are blessed with the full bliss and knowledge of the hladini shakti. They are NOT marginal jivas.

It is somewhat explained in the following verse:

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 6.160

 

antarańgā — cic-chakti, taṭasthā — jīva-śakti

bahirańgā — māyā, — tine kare prema-bhakti

 

SYNONYMS

antarańgā — the internal potency; cit-śakti — the spiritual potency; taṭasthā — the marginal potency; jīva-śakti — the living entities; bahirańgā — the external potency; māyā — the illusory energy; tine — all three of them; kare — do; prema-bhakti — devotional service in love.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases — internal, marginal and external. These are all engaged in His devotional service in love.

 

 

PURPORT

The spiritual potency of the Lord is manifested in three phases — the internal or spiritual potency, the marginal potency, which consists of the living entities, and the external potency, known as māyā-śakti. We must understand that in each of these three phases the original spiritual potencies of pleasure, eternity and knowledge remain intact. When the potencies of spiritual pleasure and knowledge are both bestowed upon the conditioned souls, the conditioned souls can escape the clutches of the external potency, māyā, which acts as a cover obscuring one's spiritual identity. When freed, the living entity awakens to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and engages in devotional service with love and affection.

 

 

The pure jivas with the full blessing of hladini including the bliss and knowledge, they are no longer marginal jivas.

As such the above quote cannot refer to the pure devotees of Krishna.

 

The marginal jivas in tatastha-shakti only have SAT potency or eternal quality.

When they are blessed with CHIT and ANANDA they are welcomed into the internal pleasure potency of the Lord and are no longer marginal jivas.

 

As such the above quote only refers to marginal jivas of the tatastha, not the internal devotees of the hladini shakti -or LOVE OF KRISHNA.

[Guest guest]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.5.19

 

kārya-kāraṇa-kartṛtve

 

dravya-jñāna-kriyāśrayāḥ

 

badhnanti nityadā muktaḿ

 

māyinaḿ puruṣaḿ guṇāḥ

 

SYNONYMS

 

kārya — effect; kāraṇa — cause; kartṛtve — in activities; dravya — material; jñāna — knowledge; kriyā-āśrayāḥ — manifested by such symptoms; badhnanti — conditions; nityadā — eternally; MUKTAM — transcendental; māyinam — affected by material energy; puruṣam — the living entity; guṇāḥ — the material modes.

 

TRANSLATION

 

These three modes of material nature, being further manifested as matter, knowledge and activities, put the eternally transcendental living entity under conditions of cause and effect and make him responsible for such activities.

 

PURPORT

 

Because they are between the internal and external potencies, the eternally transcendendental

 

Gurvani the word 'transcendental' comes from the word MUKTAM and the word eternal comes from the word NITYADA ---- 'nityadā muktaḿ'

 

Vigraha's post is scriptually solid and everything is backed up with references that all posts must have to be taken seriously.

 

Hare Krishna

[theist 1]

Who is the gifted soul that painted this?

 

 

 

 

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

 

Vigraha's post is scriptually solid and everything is backed up with references that all posts must have to be taken seriously.

 

 

 

Vigraha is saying that all souls are eternally liberated.

 

But the scriptures say there are two kinds of souls, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha, or in other words eternally siddha souls and souls in illusion.

 

Vigraha (Gaura Gopala dasa) says the nitya-baddha souls are all nitya-siddhas. This is just plain stupid

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

Is this the Gaura Gopal Dasa who was a disciple of Harikesh and then declared himself acharya? There was a thread on here years ago with a picture of him in an easy chair with a garland around his forehead.

[Guest guest]

Its only speculation that Vigraha is Gaura Gopala dasa. It appears the posts are coming from India, New Zealand or Australia, going by all the photos, so I don't think he is that person. Couldn't you tell by the email address or I.P. identification? Srila Prabhupada only had one disciple with that name and I also don't believe its him because he died years ago.

 

Anyway I found the following quote interesting. "In 1972, in response to a letter from his Australian disciples, Srila Prabhupada dictated a brief essay entitled 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic.' Srila Prabhupada explains that the soul is never actually separated from Krishna, but only dreams of such separation.

“We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In a dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the king discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over the 'seen' disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position . . . We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by maya [illusion]. Formerly we were with Krishna in his lila or sport. But this covering of maya may be very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as

[Guruvani 0]

Lets look at the word muktam in the Sanskrit dictionary.

Muktam is not showing results but here is mukta.

 

 

<table cellspacing="3"><tbody><tr><td align="right" valign="top">

</td> <td valign="top"> mukta</td> <td valign="top">mfn. loosened , let loose , set free , relaxed , slackened , opened , open MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; liberated , delivered , emancipated (esp. from sin or worldly existence) Mn. MBh. &c. (with instr. or ifc. = released from , deprived or destitute of ; cf. Pa1n2. 2-1 , 38) ; fallen or dropped down (as fruit) Hariv. ; abandoned , relinquished , quitted , given up , laid aside , deposed MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; sent forth , emitted , discharged , poured out , hurled , thrown ib. ; left free (as a road) Megh. ; uttered (as sound) MBh. ; shed (as tears) Pan5cat. ; let fly , applied (as a kick) Ragh. ; gone , vanished , disappeared (esp. ibc. ; cf. below) ; m. N. of one of the 7 sages under Manu Bhautya MBh. ; of a cook Ra1jat. ; (%{A}) f. (with or scil. %{dis}) the quarter or cardinal point just quitted by the sun VarBr2S. ; a pearl (as loosened from the pearl-oyster shell) Mn. MBh. &c. ; an unchaste woman L. ; a species of plant (= %{rAsnA}) L. ; N. of a river VP. ; n. the spirit released from corporeal existence W. ; (%{e}) ind , beside (with instr.) Ka1s3. on Pa1n2. 2-3 , 72 ; iii , 2 , 108 &c.</td></tr></tbody></table>

Obvioulsy, muktam, does not strictly mean liberated.

It can mean something other than liberated.

 

Srila Prabhupada translated it in this particular verse as transcendental.

 

It cannot automatically be taken as liberated.

In fact, the jivas in reference here, the marginal jivas, are most often referred to in the shastra as eternally conditioned living entities, not eternally liberated.

 

If we balance this verse up against other references to the marginal jivas, we cannot take this verse to mean that the marginal jivas are eternally liberated. If we did so it would go against the siddhanta that the marginal jivas are eternally conditioned souls.

[Vigraha 0]

 

 

 

 

 

 

As early as 1967, Prabhupada wrote:

About your question: the spirit soul is certainly eternal and changeless; and the fall is superficial, just like the relation between father and son cannot be broken ever. Now we are simply in a phase of forgetfulness, and this forgetfulness is called maya. There is a nice example of the waning of the moon. To us the moon appears to be changing, but in fact, the moon is always the same. So as eternal servitors of Krishna - our constitutional position - we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>. (See letter to Jananivasa, Prabhupada1987: Vol. I: 200)

<font face=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. (See letter to Jananivasa, Prabhupada1987: Vol. I: 200)

 

 

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5>

 

<FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">In another letter, Prabhupada tried to sort out a devotee's paradoxical questions:

<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5>

<FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">Your next question, 'Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul? We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?' You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy a materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. The living entity is always pure. (See, Goswami, H. d. 1996: 200)

<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5>

<FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">In 1972, in response to a letter from his Australian disciples, Prabhupada dictated a brief essay entitled 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic.' Prabhupada explains that the soul is never actually separated from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, but only dreams of such separation.

 

 

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5>

 

 

<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5>We never had any occasion when we were separated from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In a dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the king discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over the 'seen' disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position . .

 

 

<FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">

 

 

<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5>We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by maya [illusion]. Formerly we were with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in his lila or sport. But this covering of maya may be very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness.

 

 

<FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">

 

<FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has become a moment only. (See Goswami, H. d. 1996: 1879-8)

<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5>

[Vigraha 0]

 

 

 

 

Most ISKCON readers wondered, in the light of such clear explanations from their founder, how this subject managed to remain a burning issue within ISKCON. But the seeming paradoxical nature of Prabhupada's answers resists systematisation and argue for alternative readings. The influence of Gaudiya Matha and other non-ISKCON authorities, whose presentation of the subject sometimes differed from Prabhupada's, further added to the confusion. New translations of important Vaishnava texts also began to appear. Where these translations seemed at variance with Prabhupada's translations or his teachings, controversy arose.

 

 

 

 

One divergent view holds that the bound soul originally came from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent region of light surrounding <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>. (See letter to Jananivasa, Prabhupada1987: Vol. I: 200) </b>

<b><font face=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>'s abode. Such souls have never enjoyed a personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. In the same 'Crow and Tala-fruit' essay, Prabhupada rejects this idea, stating that the soul may have more recently come from the brahmajyoti but originally was with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Prabhupada counsels that it is a waste of time to argue whether our origin is in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>'s abode or the region of light surrounding it:

 

 

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5>

<FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">

 

<FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">On the top of the tree there is nice Tala-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some panditas (big, big learned scholars) saw this and discussed: 'The fruit fell down due to the crow's agitating the limb.' 'No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away.' 'No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch,' and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So, whether you were in the brahma-sayujya or with Krishna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin. (See Goswami, H. d. 1996: 189-90)

<FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">But pundits (and ISKCON pundits are no exception) seem never to tire of debate. When the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust decided to publish Jiva Goswami's Sat Sandarbhas, there was constant contention over the subtle nuances in translating Sanskrit terms. When two of the appointed members of the translation team insisted that Jiva Goswami was absolutely clear-bound souls have not fallen, but have always been eternally bound-a serious controversy arose. The remaining translators maintained that the Goswami's viewpoint was consistent with Prabhupada's-souls have fallen to this world from the spiritual realm.

 

<FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">Drutakarma dasa, an ISKCON scholar, subsequently completed an impressive compilation of quotations entitled 'Once We Were with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>' to establish that the conclusions of all the great teachers descended from Chaitanya concur with Prabhupada's position on the fall of the soul. In response, the two dissenting members of the translation team published a book, In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall, so titled to emphasise their view that in Vaikuntha, the spiritual realm, if even leaves do not fall, certainly souls do not either. Observing the escalating controversy, the BBT trustees decided to put the Sandarbha project on hold. <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5>

[Vigraha 0]

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Even before the publication of Leaves, the authors' opinions were already circulating and had gained some support. The GBC was less alarmed by the immediate confusion caused by the controversy than the long-range consequences of the conclusions in this book. Particularly disturbing was the contention that Prabhupada's statements about the fall of the soul were merely a preaching strategy adapted to suit a particular time and circumstance, and did not represent his actual conviction. The authors maintained that Prabhupada was in agreement with all previous teachers in the line, but had made adjustments as a convenient means of expressing a complex philosophical concept for a Judeo-Christian audience unfamiliar with Sanskrit terms or the Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy. Many wondered what possible cataclysmic events could have occurred since Prabhupada's time to so alter the circumstances as to require the authors to change Prabhupada's preaching strategy (if indeed that is all it was). Their reason for concern was obvious: once one aspect of Prabhupada's teaching is labelled a mere preaching ploy, there is nothing to ensure that whatever else he taught was not equally a deception. Leaves threatened to undermine the very philosophical foundation of ISKCON.

 

 

 

The GBC at their annual meeting in 1995 took steps to check such an occurrence. They resolved first, that the view expressed in Prabhupada's commentary to the Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, namely, that the original position of the soul is to be in a personal relationship with Krishna, which having been rejected leads to fall-down into the material world, is ISKCON's official view and none other should be presented under any circumstance. (Prabhupada1987: 4.28.54) Second, regarding philosophical controversies, Prabhupada's instructions and personal example are to be the first and primary source for ISKCON devotees. Vedic literatures, the writings of the past acharyas, and even the current teachings of any bonafide non-ISKCON acarya must be viewed through Prabhupada's teachings. Finally, the GBC rejected the speculation that Prabhupada practiced deception. The book In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall was banned.34

Neither of the authors was philosophically satisfied by this legislation, though they were willing to have the book withdrawn. But the purpose of the resolution was simply to stave off further confusion. The GBC had already concluded that a thorough response to the Leaves book was required. By the time of the next annual meeting, they published a comprehensive refutation, Our Original Position. This book labors extensively to define key Sanskrit terms used by Prabhupada and the previous acharyas with reference to the soul. The authors establish the logic and consistency of Prabhupada's presentation, then demonstrate how it is supported by previous acharyas. In his preface to the volume, Hridayananda dasa Goswami explains the view which he and the other authors maintained while compiling the work: "The members of ISKCON, who live perpetually at the feet of Srila Prabhupada, may speculate how Srila Prabhupada's statements are true, but they may not challenge his statements, or claim that they are false. This is precisely what it means to accept Srila Prabhupada as the founder-acharya." (Goswami, H. d. 1996: viii)

The publication of the GBC Press book seems to have had the desired effect. ISKCON devotees are now nearly of one mind on this issue, though a few (including the two contesting authors) have not been swayed. Both authors' participation within ISKCON was restricted, and they were asked to vacate their rent-free ISKCON residences. The resolution of this issue was reached over a period of more than four years during which time great effort was made to consider how to preserve both persons' participation in the Society's activities. The Chairman of the GBC explained at the time that either was again welcome to become active, but they would have to first demonstrate that they have changed their philosophical views. While ISKCON does not insist that all its members must hold to a particular persuasion, it does insist on certain policies for those engaged in teaching.

[Guruvani 0]

this guy Vigraha is very impersonal.

 

he hides his true identity and then posts these IN YOUR FACE posts with huge fonts and huge pictures to give his spew some appearance of authenticity.

 

but, he stays aloof and never mentions anything about himself or has any personal exchanges with any other member.

 

I think he shows all the signs of an impersonalist and this will be the last time I ever open his stupid topic or make a post on his topics.

 

bye-bye vigraha.

 

 

rest assured I am NOT reading your spew anymore....

[Vigraha 0]

 

 

 

 

Chapter 11. The Universal Form

TEXT 7

ihaika-stham jagat krtsnam

 

 

 

 

pasyadya sa-caracaram

mama dehe gudakesa

yac canyad drastum icchasi

 

 

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 16.5pt; HEIGHT: 3.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href=" " src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\3c\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\02\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>iha--in this; eka-stham--in one; jagat--the universe; krtsnam--completely; pasya--see; adya--immediately; sa--with; cara--moving; acaram--not moving; mama--My; dehe--in this body; gudakesa--O Arjuna; yat--that; ca--also; anyat--other; drastum--to see; icchasi--you like.

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

<v:shape id=_x0000_i1026 style="WIDTH: 16.5pt; HEIGHT: 3.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href=" " src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\3c\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\02\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>Whatever you wish to see can be seen all at once in this body. This universal form can show you all that you now desire, as well as whatever you may desire in the future. Everything is here completely.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

 

<v:shape id=_x0000_i1027 style="WIDTH: 16.5pt; HEIGHT: 3.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href=" " src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\3c\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\02\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>No one can see the entire universe sitting in one place. Even the most advanced scientist cannot see what is going on in other parts of the universe. Krsna gives him the power to see anything he wants to see, past, present and future. Thus by the mercy of Krsna, Arjuna is able to see everything.

[Guest guest]

 

this guy Vigraha is very impersonal.

 

he hides his true identity and then posts these IN YOUR FACE posts with huge fonts and huge pictures to give his spew some appearance of authenticity.

 

but, he stays aloof and never mentions anything about himself or has any personal exchanges with any other member.

 

I think he shows all the signs of an impersonalist and this will be the last time I ever open his stupid topic or make a post on his topics.

 

bye-bye vigraha.

 

 

rest assured I am NOT reading your spew anymore....

 

I don't blame him, when low life dogs bark, u don't bark with them!!

[Guest guest]

 

I don't blame him, when low life dogs bark, u don't bark with them!!

As Prabhupada once said, "the dogs bark but the caravan still passes". Guruvani your just a nasty frustrated angry person who needs to get a life.

 

Hare Rama.

[Guest guest]

"One divergent view holds that the bound soul originally came from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent region of light surrounding Krishna's abode. Such souls have never enjoyed a personal relationship with Krishna. In the same 'Crow and Tala-fruit' essay, Prabhupada rejects this idea, stating that the soul may have more recently come from the brahmajyoti but originally was with Krishna."

-----------------------------

 

That "one divergent view" is the standard in Vaishnavism. Only some Iskcon devotees think jivas fell from direct association with Krsna.

 

More importantly, why would a jiva fall from a life in a spiritual planet, full of activity and rasa, into the world of oneness in Brahmajyoti? This is a bizzare notion to say the least. If envy caused the original fall, falling into brahmajyoti does absolutely nothing to satisfy that desiere.

 

You cover up one concoction with yet another concoction... Because everybody knows we fell from Brahmajyoti and there are many authorized references to that fact, lets concoct a theory that we fell into Brahman from Goloka Vrindavan. You have no idea how absurd that claim is to anyone who has even a basic understanding of both locations...

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

These forums are really more for discussion, not for dissertations. Please keep the big long copy paste essays somewhere else.