Questions about soul

[Guest guest]

The chart is ISKCON version. But they did a good Job on presenting this. that's all I've to say.

[theist 1]

 

yes, let's go back..

 

It is said: there are 2 worlds- material & antimaterial (spiritual?)

 

some questions:

-was there a situation, where there was NO material world and everything was only in antimaterial world?

 

And if so--> what was the "situation/relations" like?

They both exist simultaneously. The spiritual world is eternally established whereas material universes are sometimes manifested and sometimes held within Vishnu in a suspended state. IOW's just like the smallest material form comes into being and then is disolved the material universes come into being and are dissolved. Such is the way of all material things. Material forms appear and disappear like the mirage that they are.

 

The basic ingredients of material forms is also an eternal energy of the Lord. I have heard the example of matter being Krsna's shadow. That gives the basic idea.

[Guest guest]

 

Final goal is to love and serve Krsna. Brahma is not in the picture here.

There is Brahma in the picture (greenish color). Isn't he?

_

 

 

Two questions:

 

- is this Brahma as in the picture, the same Brahma who lives 100 of his year, and we now live in 28 cycle of 7. manvantara ? (example link: ww.mcremo.com/vedic.htm)

 

-

A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Siva, Visnu or Krsna. He can become a Brahma in due course.

 

As i understand there are many Brahmas.

 

My question would be:

Is becoming Brahma the final,final goal what we (jiva) can acieve?

[theist 1]

 

There is Brahma in the picture (greenish color). Isn't he?

_

 

 

Two questions:

 

- is this Brahma as in the picture, the same Brahma who lives 100 of his year, and we now live in 28 cycle of 7. manvantara ? (example link: ww.mcremo.com/vedic.htm)

 

-

 

As i understand there are many Brahmas.

 

My question would be:

Is becoming Brahma the final,final goal what we (jiva) can acieve?

 

I did not have that chart in mind or any such chart in mind when I made my comment. Sorry if my phraseology was confusing.

 

If you have some facts from mcremo on what the Bhagavatam says about Brahma's lifetimes I would assume he is correct. Just take what he says and if in doubt search the Bhagavatam yourself for confirmation.

 

Many Brahmas, many universes.

 

 

My question would be:

Is becoming Brahma the final,final goal what we (jiva) can acieve?

Same question. Becoming a Brahma is is like becoming president of the United States. Yes you can become president but that is not the goal. Brahma is a post that exists for creating material forms and repopulating the universe.

 

Our goal is to leave the whole universal business behind and to take up residence in the Spiritual Sky as servants of the Supreme Lord which is our natural position. We aim to become only ourselves in such a purified state.

[krsna 3]

 

I did not have that chart in mind or any such chart in mind when I made my comment. Sorry if my phraseology was confusing.

 

If you have some facts from mcremo on what the Bhagavatam says about Brahma's lifetimes I would assume he is correct. Just take what he says and if in doubt search the Bhagavatam yourself for confirmation.

 

Many Brahmas, many universes.

 

 

Same question. Becoming a Brahma is is like becoming president of the United States. Yes you can become president but that is not the goal. Brahma is a post that exists for creating material forms and repopulating the universe.

 

Our goal is to leave the whole universal business behind and to take up residence in the Spiritual Sky as servants of the Supreme Lord which is our natural position. We aim to become only ourselves in such a purified state.

 

<CENTER>

________________________________

____

"Outside of the three planetary systems, the four Yugas multiplied by one

thousand comprise one day on the planet of Brahma. A similar period

comprises a night of Brahma, in which the creator of the universe goes to sleep."

(Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 3, Chapter 11, Text 22) ________________

__________

</CENTER>

 

<CENTER>

Cremo, Michael A. (1999) "Puranic Time and the Archeological Record." Chapter 3 in

Time and Archaeology

: Vol. 37,

 

One World Archaeology

Series, edited by Tim Murray, Routledge, London

</CENTER>

"The time concept of modern archeology, and modern anthropology in general, resembles the general cosmological-historical time concept of Europe's Judeo-Christian culture. Differing from the cyclical cosmological-historical time concepts of the early Greeks in Europe, and the Indians and others in Asia, the Judeo-Christian cosmological-historical time concept is linear and progressive.

 

"Hindu historical literatures, particularly the

Puranas

and

Itihasas

, place human existence in the context of repeating time cycles called

yugas

and

kalpas

, lasting hundreds of millions of years. During this entire time, according to the Puranic accounts, humans coexisted with creatures in some ways resembling the earlier toolmaking hominids of modern evolutionary accounts."

<CENTER>

 

</CENTER>

<CENTER>The Yuga Cycles*</CENTER>

"Each

yuga

cycle is composed of 4

yugas

. The first, the

Satya-yuga

, lasts 4800 years of the demigods. The second, the

Treta-yuga

, lasts 3600 years of the demigods. The third, the

Dvapara-yuga,

lasts 2400 years of the demigods. And the fourth,

Kali-yuga,

lasts 1200 years of the demigods . Since the demigod year is equivalent to 360 earth years, the lengths of the

yugas

in earth years are, acording to standard Vaishnava commentaries, 432,000 years for the

Kali-yuga

, 864,000 years for the

Dvapara-yuga

, 1,296,000 years for the

Treta-yuga

, and 1,728,000 years for the

Satya-yuga.

 

"This gives a total of 4,320,000 years for the entire yuga cycle. One thousand of such cycles, lasting 4,320,000 years, comprises one day of Brahma, the demigod who governs this universe. A day of Brahma is also called a

kalpa

. Each of Brahma's nights lasts a similar period of time. Life is only manifest on earth during the day of Brahma. With the onset of Brahma's night, the entire universe is devastated and plunged into darkness. When another day of Brahma begins, life again becomes manifest.

 

"Each day of Brahma is divided into 14

manvantara

periods, each one lasting

71 yuga

cycles. Preceding the first and following each

manvantara

period is a juncture (sandhya) the length of a

Satya-yuga

(1,728,000 years). Typically, each

manvantara

period ends with a partial devastation. According to Puranic accounts, we are now in the twenty-eighth

yuga

cycle of the seventh

manvantara

period of the present day of Brahma."

<CENTER> </CENTER>

"This would give the inhabited earth an age of about 2 billion years. Interestingly enough, the oldest undisputed organisms recognized by paleontologists - algae fossils like those from the Gunflint formation in Canada - are just about that old.** Altogether, 453

yuga

cycles have elapsed since this day of Brahma began. Each yuga cycle involves a progression from a golden age of peace and spiritual progress to a final age of violence and spiritual degradation."

<CENTER>

</CENTER>

[Guest guest]

maybe now will be easier to discuss-->

 

Hari-dhama:

1. Goloka Vrindavana

2. Navadvipa

3. Mathura

4. Dvaraka

5. Ayodhya

6. Vaikuntha

 

Mahesa-dhama

 

Devi-dhama:

1. Satya-loka

2. Tapa-loka

3. Jana-loka

4. Mahar-loka

5. Svar-loka

6. Bhuvar-loka

7. Bhur-loka

8. Atala-loka

9. Vitala-loka

10. Sutala-loka

11. Talatala-loka

12. Mahatala-loka

13. Rasatala-loka

14. Patala-loka

 

*Hari-dhama is anti-material world;

Devi-dhama is material world;

Mahesa-dhama is between them.

 

Some questions:

 

-When we are "in samsara", we move from one body to another in places of Devi-dhava. (correct?)

-Our goal is mukti (stop samsara) and enter Hari-dhama?

 

 

Our goal is to leave the whole universal business behind and to take up residence in the Spiritual Sky as servants of the Supreme Lord which is our natural position. We aim to become only ourselves in such a purified state.

 

-What do you mean by Spiritual Sky? Hari-dhama?

-What is meant with- Back to Godhead?

[theist 1]

 

maybe now will be easier to discuss-->

 

 

Some questions:

 

-When we are "in samsara", we move from one body to another in places of Devi-dhava. (correct?)

-Our goal is mukti (stop samsara) and enter Hari-dhama?

 

 

 

-What do you mean by Spiritual Sky? Hari-dhama?

-What is meant with- Back to Godhead?

 

Correct.

 

The mixed devotees (us) desire liberation but are simultaneously trying to cultivate Bhakti which is free from the desire for liberation and only seeks to please the Lord. It may appear as a contradiction and in a sense it is but it is our honest position.

 

The self realized devotee has no desire for liberation but to only please Krsna. One in this condition is already liberated. He acts only for Krsna's interest.

 

Spiritual Sky, Hari-dhama, Kingdom of God, all the same.

 

Back to Godhead refers to going back to the reality of Krsna consciousness and awareness of the spiritual world which is all around us even now.

[Guest guest]

We are now developing, "spiritualy growing"- and this can be measured by %.

 

A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Siva, Visnu or Krsna.

If you say- back-->that means we were in Hari-dhama (spirital God's kingdom-Godhead) before,

and my question is how many % we had then? Did we loose %?

 

 

 

another question:

how many times were we there (spirital God's kingdom-Godhead)- once or many times?

[Laulyam 0]

Vrajanatha said, “Prabhu, when I remember your sweet instructions, my heart becomes restless and the entire world seems to be devoid of all substance. My heart is becoming eager to take shelter at Sri Gaurangadeva’s lotus feet. Please be merciful to me and tell me who I really am according to tattva, and why I have come to this world.”

Babaji: My dear son, you have blessed me by asking such a question. The day that the jiva first asks this question is the auspicious day on which his good fortune arises. If you will kindly hear the fifth sloka of Dasa-mula, all your doubts will be dispelled.

 

 

 

sphulingah rddhagner iva cid-anavo jiva-nicayah

 

 

 

hareh suryasyaivaprthag api tu tad-bheda-visayah

 

 

 

vase maya yasya prakrti-patir evesvara iha

 

 

 

sa jivo mukto ‘pi prakrti-vasa-yogyah sva-gunatah

 

Just as many tiny sparks burst out from a blazing fire, so the innumerable jivas are like atomic, spiritual particles in the rays of the spiritual sun, Sri Hari. Though these jivas are non-different from Sri Hari, they are also eternally different from Him. The eternal difference between the jiva and Isvara is that Isvara is the Lord and master of maya-sakti, whereas the jiva can fall under the control of maya, even in his liberated stage, due to his constitutional nature.

Vrajanatha: This is an exceptional siddhanta, and I would like to hear some Vedic evidence to support it. Sri Bhagavan’s statements are certainly Veda, but still, people will be bound to accept the teachings of Mahaprabhu if the Upanisads can substantiate this principle. Babaji: This tattva is described in many places in the Vedas. I will cite a few of them:

 

 

 

 

 

 

yathagneh ksudra visphulinga vyuccaranti

 

 

 

evam evasmad atmanah sarvani bhutani vyuccaranti

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (2.1.20)

 

 

 

 

Innumerable jivas emanate from para-brahma, just like tiny sparks from a fire.

 

 

 

tasya va etasya purusasya dve eva sthane

 

 

 

bhavata idan ca paraloka-sthanan ca

 

 

 

sandhyam trtiyam svapna-sthanam

 

 

 

tasmin sandhye sthane tisthann ete ubhe

 

 

 

sthane pasyatidan ca paraloka-sthanan ca

 

 

 

Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.9)

 

 

 

 

There are two positions about which the jiva-purusa should inquire – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual world. The jiva is situated in a third position, which is a dreamlike condition (svapna-sthana), and is the juncture (tatastha) between the other two. Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet, he sees both the jada-jagat (inert world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world).

This sloka describes the marginal nature of jiva-sakti. Again, it is said in Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.18):

 

 

 

tad yatha maha-matsya ubhe kule ‘nusancarati

 

 

 

purvan caparan caivam evayam purusa etav ubhav antav

 

 

 

anu sancarati svapnantan ca buddhantan ca

 

Just as a large fish in a river sometimes goes to the eastern bank and sometimes to the western bank, so the jiva, being situated in karana-jala (the water of cause that lies between the inert and conscious worlds), also gradually wanders to both banks, the place of dreaming and the place of wakefulness.

Vrajanatha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word tatastha?

Babaji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the tata (shore), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing but land, so where is the shore? The tata is the line of distinction separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then tata is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-sakti is situated at the place where the two meet. The jivas are like the countless atomic particles of light within the sunrays. Being situated in the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and the material universe created by maya on the other. Just as Bhagavan’s spiritual sakti on one side is unlimited, maya-sakti on the other side is also very powerful. The innumerable subtle (suksma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal by nature because they have manifested from Krsna’s tatasthasakti (marginal potency).

Vrajanatha: What is the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

Babaji: It is the nature that enables one to be situated between both worlds, and to see both sides. Tatastha-svabhava is the eligibility to come under the control of either of the saktis. Sometimes the shore is submerged in the river because of erosion, and then again it becomes one with the land because the river changes its course. If the jiva looks in the direction of Krsna – that is, towards the spiritual world – he is influenced by Krsna sakti. He then enters the spiritual world, and serves Bhagavan in his pure, conscious, spiritual form. However, if he looks towards maya, he becomes opposed to Krsna and is incarcerated by maya. This dual-faceted nature is called the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature).

http://bvml.org/SBNM/JaivaDharma/15.html

[theist 1]

 

We are now developing, "spiritualy growing"- and this can be measured by %.

 

If you say- back-->that means we were in Hari-dhama (spirital God's kingdom-Godhead) before,

and my question is how many % we had then? Did we loose %?

 

 

 

another question:

how many times were we there (spirital God's kingdom-Godhead)- once or many times?

 

I don't know the specifics on if we were in Hari-dhama as full participants in Krsna's sport or as simple points of consciousness within His aura. There are different opinions held by Gaudiya teachers on this point. As I understand it one must be free from the material time conception before one can comprehend the answer. I say "back" because Srila Prabhuada said back. I have also read "back" used by other GV teachers.

 

People debate this question endlessly with no hope of resolving it. I steer clear of all such squabbles.

[Guest guest]

You can add some info on this at any time;)

_______________________________

 

I've got another question. maybe it looks like speculation but i ask:

 

 

Hari-dhama:

1. Goloka Vrindavana

2. Navadvipa

3. Mathura

4. Dvaraka

5. Ayodhya

6. Vaikuntha

 

Mahesa-dhama

 

Devi-dhama:

1. Satya-loka

2. Tapa-loka

3. Jana-loka

4. Mahar-loka

5. Svar-loka

6. Bhuvar-loka

7. Bhur-loka

8. Atala-loka

9. Vitala-loka

10. Sutala-loka

11. Talatala-loka

12. Mahatala-loka

13. Rasatala-loka

14. Patala-loka

 

*Hari-dhama is anti-material world;

Devi-dhama is material world;

Mahesa-dhama is between them.

 

There is a saying: as above so below.

I'm interested in a comparison/list of different places (chakras?) in human body.

 

What do you think?

[Guest guest]

 

You can add some info on this at any time;)

 

i would like to add-

in fact i would love to,

i guess this is the only way to clear things..

 

 

 

People debate this question endlessly with no hope of resolving it. I steer clear of all such squabbles.

 

So, the question in this topic is->

who gave that information, who wrote it?

 

My problems is- that i don't understand all this different schools,..but i think that sruti is something that is all accepted. Is this information from sruti, or someone add it/wrote it later?

[Laulyam 0]

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

All Vaisnavas say that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna, that his eternal nature is to serve Krsna, and that he is now bound by maya, because he has forgotten that eternal nature. However, everyone knows that the jiva is an eternal entity, of which there are two types: nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramada (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samadhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mayika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters.

I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas will begin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor. The Vedas say in Taittiriya Upanisad (2.9)

 

 

 

yato vaco nivartante aprapya manasa saha

 

The speech and the mind return from brahma, being unable to attain Him.

I advise you not to inquire about this matter from anyone, but to realize it yourself. I have just given you an indication (abhasa).

[theist 1]

This is Bhaktivinodes advice. The realization will come in due course.

 

 

I advise you not to inquire about this matter from anyone, but to realize it yourself. I have just given you an indication (abhasa).

[Guest guest]

 

We are now developing, "spiritualy growing"- and this can be measured by %.

Quote:Quote:

A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Siva, Visnu or Krsna.

 

If you say- back-->that means we were in Hari-dhama (spirital God's kingdom-Godhead) before,

and my question is how many % we had then? Did we loose %?

 

 

 

another question:

how many times were we there (spirital God's kingdom-Godhead)- once or many times?

 

 

To those questions, i would like to add sth more...

 

 

"This gives a total of 4,320,000 years for the entire yuga cycle. One thousand of such cycles, lasting 4,320,000 years, comprises one day of Brahma, the demigod who governs this universe. A day of Brahma is also called a kalpa. Each of Brahma's nights lasts a similar period of time. Life is only manifest on earth during the day of Brahma. With the onset of Brahma's night, the entire universe is devastated and plunged into darkness. When another day of Brahma begins, life again becomes manifest.

Where are we (souls) during the night of Brahma?

...Life is only manifest on earth during the day of Brahma....

 

Are we in Hari-dhama?

 

(hope i'm not annoying, but i find this discussion interesting,.. and thank you)

[theist 1]

 

To those questions, i would like to add sth more...

 

I told you why I at least use the term 'back'. Others may have different reasons.

 

 

 

Where are we (souls) during the night of Brahma?

...Life is only manifest on earth during the day of Brahma....

The souls are said to be taken up back into the form of Visnu and exist there in a state of suspended animation and then once again become manifest during Brahma's day. When remanifested the conditioned souls take up the same activities as before (the previous day of Brahma).

 

If you think about this is just a macro version of what happens when we go to sleep in our earthly night and awaken the next day. It is extremely similar.

 

 

Are we in Hari-dhama?

 

I can say we are in the spiritual world right now. How could it be otherwise since the spiritual world is all pervading? The difference is we are mistakening this enrgy as something to enjoy apart from Krsna and this then makes it a material world... to us.

 

There is no material world for the pure devotee. He sees everything as Krsna and Krsna's energy. If he goes to what we call hell he is still in Hari-dhama.

 

 

(hope i'm not annoying, but i find this discussion interesting,.. and thank you)

 

Not at all. I find it interesting also. Thank you for helping me remember Krsna by your thoughtful and intelligent questions

[TeleGuru 0]

None of the Definitions Given Above is True, Because

 

1, The soul is not located in some particular part of body,

2, It donot have any dimension or size, It is Just an energy,

3, For defining the soul first you need to understand the complete working of the universe and then about the working of the God and Then you will have some idea about the soul, because it cannot be defined in words,

4, you can clear your ideas by going to my personal page at myspace.com/gurupkar or you can mail me at gurupkarlive@, or you can see my posts Types Of Humans And Telepathy In Spirtual Discussion-

 

Love Always

Gurupkar

[Guest guest]

That is a little apa-sidhantic.

 

this world is described as made from the inferiror energy of Krsna. Therefore this cannot be the spiritual world as the spiritual world does not belong to the inferior energy.

 

 

I can say we are in the spiritual world right now. How could it be otherwise since the spiritual world is all pervading? The difference is we are mistakening this enrgy as something to enjoy apart from Krsna and this then makes it a material world... to us.

[theist 1]

I said:

 

 

I can say we are in the spiritual world right now. How could it be otherwise since the spiritual world is all pervading? The difference is we are mistakening this enrgy as something to enjoy apart from Krsna and this then makes it a material world... to us.

There is no material world for the pure devotee. He sees everything as Krsna and Krsna's energy. If he goes to what we call hell he is still in Hari-dhama.

You said:

 

 

That is a little apa-sidhantic.

 

this world is described as made from the inferiror energy of Krsna. Therefore this cannot be the spiritual world as the spiritual world does not belong to the inferior energy.

 

Srila Prabhupada said/wrote:

 

 

In the material concept of life, when one works for sense gratification, there is misery, but in the absolute world, when one is engaged in pure devotional service, there is no misery. The devotee in Krishna consciousness has nothing for which to lament or desire. Since God is full, a living entity who is engaged in God's service, in Krishna consciousness, becomes also full in himself. He is just like a river cleansed of all dirty water. Because a pure devotee has no thought other than Krishna, he is naturally always joyful. He does not lament for any material loss or aspire for gain, because he is full in the service of the Lord. He has no desire for material enjoyment, because he knows that every living entity is a fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and therefore eternally a servant. He does not see, in the material world, someone as higher and someone as lower; higher and lower positions are ephemeral, and a devotee has nothing to do with ephemeral appearances or disappearances. For him stone and gold are of equal value. This is the brahma-bhuta stage [sB 4.30.20], and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one's individuality becomes hellish, the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like serpents' teeth that are broken. As there is no fear of a serpent with broken teeth, there is no fear from the senses when they are automatically controlled. The world is miserable for the materially infected person, but for a devotee the entire world is as good as Vaikuntha, or the spiritual sky. The highest personality in this material universe is no more significant than an ant for a devotee. Such a stage can be achieved by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, who preached pure devotional service in this age.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain how what I said differs from Srila Prabhupada on this point. BG 18.54 purport

[theist 1]

There are hundreds of such quotes. Here is just one more.

 

 

ahaituki: "I may remain Your pure devotee birth after birth." That means, when there is birth after birth, there is no liberation. So He doesn't expect even liberation. When you are liberated, there is no birth. Either you remain in the spiritual planet or you merge into the existence of the Supreme, there is no more birth in this material world. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu prays that "Birth after birth." That means He doesn't care whether He is liberated or not liberated; He wants simply to be engaged in Krishna consciousness, to serve the Lord, Supreme Lord. That is His philosophy. Never mind where He is. The devotee doesn't mind whether he's born in the animal society or human society or demigod society or any society. He simply prays to God that "I may not forget You. I may be always engaged in Your transcendental loving service." This is the symptom of pure devotion. Of course, a devotee, wherever he remains, he remains in the spiritual kingdom, even in this material body. But from his side he does not demand from God anything for his personal superiority or personal comfort. lecture

[Guest guest]

 

He simply prays to God that "I may not forget You. I may be always engaged in Your transcendental loving service." This is the symptom of pure devotion. Of course, a devotee, wherever he remains, he remains in the spiritual kingdom, even in this material body. But from his side he does not demand from God anything for his personal superiority or personal comfort.

 

I've got one question:

 

What is that is "guideing" a devotte?

Emotions? Felling? Thought?...

[Guest guest]

But these quotes don't say that material world = spiritual world. Unless I'm missing something, which wouldn't be surprising because I'm no expert in Spiritual affairs.

 

 

I said:

 

 

You said:

 

 

Srila Prabhupada said/wrote:

 

 

Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain how what I said differs from Srila Prabhupada on this point. BG 18.54 purport

[theist 1]

 

I've got one question:

 

What is that is "guideing" a devotte?

Emotions? Felling? Thought?...

 

The realized devotee is directly guided by the Lord. Person to person.

[theist 1]

 

But these quotes don't say that material world = spiritual world. Unless I'm missing something, which wouldn't be surprising because I'm no expert in Spiritual affairs.

 

You are no expert and neither am I. I think this snippet of a conversation bewteen Srila Prabhupada and Dr. Singh (Svarupa Damodara) will help us understand.

 

This is also to be found in the small book Life Comes From Life.

 

 

Everything Is Spiritual

Dr. Singh. Is material consciousness the absence of Krishna consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada. Yes.

 

Dr. Singh. And when there is Krishna consciousness, where is material nature?

 

Srila Prabhupada. If you continue in Krishna consciousness, you will see that nothing is material. When you offer a flower to Krishna, it is not material. Krishna will not accept anything material. And this does not mean that the flower is material on the bush, and then it becomes spiritual when you offer it to Krishna. No. The flower is "material" only as long as you think that it is made for your enjoyment. But as soon as you see that it is for Krishna's enjoyment, you see it as it really is—spiritual.

 

Dr. Singh. So the entire world is actually spiritual?

 

Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Therefore, we want to engage everything in Krishna's service; that is the spiritual world.

 

Dr. Singh. Can we also appreciate Krishna's creation in that light? For example, can we think, "This tree is very beautiful because it is Krishna's property"?

 

Srila Prabhupada. Yes. That is Krishna consciousness.

 

Dr. Singh. If someone looks at the Deity of Krishna in the temple and thinks that it is only stone or wood, what does that mean?

 

Srila Prabhupada. He is ignorant of the facts. How can the Deity be material? Stone is also Krishna's energy. Just as electric energy is everywhere but only the electricians know how to utilize it, so Krishna is everywhere—even in stone—but only His devotees know how to utilize stone to appreciate Krishna. The devotees know that stone cannot exist outside of Krishna. Therefore, when the devotees see the Deity, they say, "Here is Krishna." They see the real oneness of Krishna and His energy.

 

Simultaneously One and Different

Dr. Singh. Is it true that Krishna conscious persons perceive Krishna in a plain stone as much as in the Deity carved from stone?

 

Srila Prabhupada. Yes.

 

Dr. Singh. Just as much?

 

Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Why not? In the Bhagavad-gita (9.4) Krishna says:

maya tatam idam sarvam

jagad avyakta-murtina

mat-sthani sarva-bhutani

na caham teshv avasthitah

This means that Krishna's energy—that is, Krishna in His partially manifested form—pervades every atom of the universe. But His fully manifested personal form is present in the Deity shaped according to His directions. This is the philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, the simultaneous oneness and difference of God and His energies. For example, when the sunshine is in your room, that does not mean the sun itself is in your room. The sun and its separated energies, like heat and light, are one in quality, but different in quantity.

 

Dr. Singh. But still, you say that one can see Krishna in ordinary stone?

Srila Prabhupada. Yes, why not? We see the stone as Krishna's energy.

 

Dr. Singh. But can we worship Him within the stone?

 

Srila Prabhupada. We can worship Him through His energy in the stone. But we cannot worship the stone as Krishna. We cannot worship this bench as Krishna. But we can worship everything because we see everything as Krishna's energy. This tree is worshipable because both Krishna and His energy are worshipable, but this does not mean we worship the tree in the same way as we worship the Deity of Krishna in the temple.

 

[Guest guest]

 

The realized devotee is directly guided by the Lord. Person to person.

 

What that means?