July 9 et al

[mahak 0]

BREACH OF CONFIDENTIALITY

 

 

Haribol. Please accept this article as a position paper concerning statements I have made on the internet, since 1997, that seemingly deride, vilify, discredit and disregard personal letters and memos attributed to Srila Prabhupada. I will not write any more comments on the subject unless questions about my position are asked in a non-combative manner. Many times since 1997, I have noted that, without continuity, archives have little value. The leaders of ISKCON have not provided continuity, and many items are unavailable or destroyed, especially from 1976 thru 11-14-77. This article will not discuss such things, only the so-called letters that often appear for motivational purposes alone. I write this article simple because a devotee has asked me to. I am not creating religion, only responding to a friend I respect to a great degree.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is my example. He stated often that the letters from his Guru Maharaja to his disciples were publicly displayed improperly (in courtrooms) to convey teachings that did not exist. These letters, in fact, virtually destroyed the preaching apparatus of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, especially the important teachings of Guru-Tattwa. I take a similar position here, and will explain myself in the following paragraphs.

 

 

 

CONFIDENTIAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN GURU AND DISCIPLE.

 

 

 

"Our Guru" is never an issue in personal correspondence. "My Guru" is all that counts. There is no one in between Guru and disciple. "Our Guru" is applicable in discussions pertaining to the Science He presents, intact, as He has received from His Spiritual Master. "My Guru" is appropriate in the personal and practical application of this Science. Personal letters are a vehicle for Srila Prabhupada to give instructions to specific disciples regarding the specific desires for the disciple. If one thinks that any instruction of this type should be immediately made into a doctrine to follow by all, they deny and interfere with the guru-disciple relationship.

 

Example: Srila Prabhupada says "Kirtananda, go to Montréal and start a mission there". Kirtananda does not go, but Brahmananda abandons New York City to carry out Srila Prabhupada's desire for Montréal.

 

 

Bad Example? Not really, same thing. Many times this happened, disciples moving in on another's service. Did Visnujnana's TSKP benefit from the aggressive money scams introduced by Tamal? I came from a "plum" service center, ISKCON-Hawaii. The disciple who Srila Prabhupada ordered to set up ISKCON there was greatly envied by many powerful leaders. They made it impossible for ISKCON-Hawaii to survive. 100 devotees left ISKCON, and another nice disciple was ordered by Srila Prabhupada to salvage the situation there. He succeeded to a degree, but the envy and interference did not cease, so, he, too, left the movement. Srila Prabhupada was so angry with the leaders who wanted to be the new GBC of Hawaii, he shouted them down, saying "I am the GBC of Hawaii". Before he left for India, he appointed the favorite enemy of these envious leaders, Siddhaswarupananda, as GBC, but he was threatened and run out before the week was through (but not before he ordered the tennis courts destroyed at 51 Coelho).

 

 

 

Back to the point. A letter correspondence between the Spiritual Master and His disciple is the foundation of confidentiality and personal relationship. Use of these letters without release for circulation (discussed later in this article) is a Federal Crime in the US and also international infraction.

 

 

 

THE QUEST FOR HIGHER TRUTH

 

 

 

The greatest discredit against GM gurus and peers of ours who have taken disciples of their own is that some have committed grave errors by saying that Srila Prabhupada's teachings are incomplete or that he taught a more rudimentary, or lesser, bhakti yoga. I join in the clamor, and I am appalled that Vaisnavas who should know better would purposely compete with Lord Nityananda Prabhu's empowered representative, perhaps the greatest Vaisnava in history, comparable only with the likes of the Six Goswamis, Lord Brahma, Narada Muni, Lord Vyasadeva and Madhavacarya. But I also find insignificant difference in attitudes of so-called gurus teaching "higher truths" and disciples who scour letters and tampered with documents and recordings because they feel like something was left out of His books.

 

 

 

UNSCRUPULOUS SECRETARIES

 

 

 

I will present a scenario using two godbrothers who have passed away. The example I give is an often-cited correspondence between Srila Prabhupada and a dear disciple, Sriman Tusta Krsna Goswami. This is a personal letter from guru to disciple, serving twofold purpose. Guru must chastise disciple, as proven by evidence from shastra where the faultless Sri Adwaita Acarya enabled Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to chastise Him by pretending to teach monism. This letter chastised Tusta Krsna, but also gave beneficial instruction to him as well, from Srila Prabhupada to Tusta Krsna.

 

 

 

Do we think that Tusta Krsna would forward a copy of this letter to Tamal Krsna Goswami, Srila Prabhupada's secretary? I certainly do not. Tusta would have taken the letter to heart as confidential instruction. So, confidentiality is breached by Tamal and/or other secretaries who made copies prior to sending. Motive does not matter, though one may easily surmise that copies were circulated to discredit the hundred or so devotees who left ISKCON in 1973 because of the malfeasance of the GBC.

 

 

 

This is not a "sticking point" in grouchy mahaksadasa, nor salt in his sweet rice. It is a violation of Human Rights of Srila Prabhupada, censoring, copying, even reading of another's personal mail. A "secretary" is fired and may even be criminally prosecuted if a letter composed on behalf of the supervisor of such secretary divulges the content to a third party.

 

Srila Prabhupada was a fine businessman who was expert in such matters. If such letters are to be circulated to others, such circulation would be duly noted. The document would be described and the parties to receive the documents would also be described, either by separate cover or in the content of the correspondence. It is even more disturbing that letters from disciples of Srila Prabhupada to Him were routinely screened, copied, circulated, etc. This is a greater Human Rights violation that intercepts mail prior to the person such mail is addressed to.

 

 

 

I find the correspondence between Srila Prabhupada and Tusta Krsna Goswami quite informative, yet as a student and great admired of my late. advanced godbrother, Tusta Krsna, find nothing in the letter to discredit him. Only the love Srila Prabhupada has for his disciple is expressed, yet most cannot see this. They still use this letter, this stolen property, for furthering discord between Srila Prabhupada's disciples. They will have to pay the price for their actions, as motives never escape Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga. I say burn this letter rather than using it against Srila Prabhupada's mission that demands cooperation. The writer made His point, the receiver got the point, and it is no one else's business (unless, as mentioned above, proper authorization for distribution is accompanying such letter).

 

 

 

MORE ON UNSCRUPULOUS SECRETARIES

 

 

 

To me, the July 9 letter is a fraud. It is ludicrous that those who love this memo as if it were scripture cannot understand that their avowed number one enemy, (not necessarily mine) Tamal Krsna Goswami, is the author. I fell I must take a shower when I read this letter that demands that I respect and honor those named on the list, most of whom clearly showed their true nature prior to 11-14-77. In the past, I have called this document a forgery, citing direct evidence I saw with my own eyes, a rubber stamp of Srila Prabhupada's signature. (Important note: The devotee who had this item honored it as a remnant of Srila Prabhupada, not possessed as a tool of deception. But I saw it in 1974, and events since that time prove that mass deception occurred. Whoever reads this article must decide for themselves.) I do not now believe that forgeries exist, but what I do believe, which is verifiable by many devotees who witnessed Vrndavan in 1977, is worse than forgery.

 

 

 

I believe the last time I saw Srila Prabhupada (during his physical presence) was in the fall of 1976. He was very frail, and my only hope was that the so-called leaders would finally allow Him to rest and retire, something He desired since creating the GBC in 1970. This was not to be. He was hassled and harangued by those whose only thoughts were of their positions after his death. When I think of his final pastimes, I see the picture in 5th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, where the offspring are impatiently looking at their watches, only concerned with their inheritance. I remote view leaders, shoving paper after paper in front of him, demanding signatures, demanding his attendance at their bickering sessions (May 28), etc. Planning, plotting, coercing, cajoling! His requests (like parikrama, circumambulating Govardhana Hill, etc.) were rejected and denied.

 

 

 

Duress is what the legal profession calls it. All such documents, even the will, can be successfully challenged. The poison issue even adds to the utter calamity. One may say he is a perfect human being and beyond all of this, but He Himself says that he is an old man and wants to rest and retire, and maybe he wants to be surrounded by disciples who love his life like their own lives. Another request denied to Him by unscrupulous secretaries.

 

 

 

IMPOSSIBILITY OF COMPLIANCE

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada's books are beyond any need for dialogue on the subject matter presented. The "as it is" trademark is authoritive, thus no doubts remain. The massive undertaking, the author editing. the reference checking with past authoritive Acaryas, the publication planning, the staff of proofreaders, etc.! These things alone place his books in a different category that letters written by secretaries bearing his signature.

 

Foundational management directives are not necessarily Raja Vidya. The timeless nature of the science of His teachings in his books are not obscured by unforeseeable events, whereas management directives given 27 years ago may no longer be valid. To get all excited and deny the loss of validity of July 9 is to bind oneself to the eleven names on that list, bind oneself to subsequent GBC directives, etc. While Bhagavad Gita As It Is was fact 5000 years ago, fact today and will be fact even after this insignificant star fizzles out, practical application of the science is dependent on time and place, and each and every acarya has made adjustments accordingly.

 

 

 

CLOSING

 

 

 

In closing, I take a position. If I reject as invalid all questionable memos of letters not addressed to me for reasons described above (Lack of provable authenticity or inappropriate breach of confidentiality), I don't feel lesser informed than those who can recite from rote such extra-shastric documents. I do not feel superior because of the above stated position on the matter. I only feel unlimitedly fortunate because Srila Prabhupada has taken this fool under his wing, gives me full information to remember (and act on) my real self, and allows me to grip the lifeline He has thrown from the Mercy Ship.

 

 

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

Good call Mahak prabhu. Some of the guys from July 9th list were known to be crooks even among ordinary devotees. I doubt Prabhupada had much faith in them. He merely used them in service.

[bhaktachris 0]

 

To me, the July 9 letter is a fraud. It is ludicrous that those who love this memo as if it were scripture cannot understand that their avowed number one enemy, (not necessarily mine) Tamal Krsna Goswami, is the author. I fell I must take a shower when I read this letter that demands that I respect and honor those named on the list, most of whom clearly showed their true nature prior to 11-14-77. In the past, I have called this document a forgery, citing direct evidence I saw with my own eyes, a rubber stamp of Srila Prabhupada's signature. (Important note: The devotee who had this item honored it as a remnant of Srila Prabhupada, not possessed as a tool of deception. But I saw it in 1974, and events since that time prove that mass deception occurred. Whoever reads this article must decide for themselves.) I do not now believe that forgeries exist, but what I do believe, which is verifiable by many devotees who witnessed Vrndavan in 1977, is worse than forgery.

 

 

 

I believe the last time I saw Srila Prabhupada (during his physical presence) was in the fall of 1976. He was very frail, and my only hope was that the so-called leaders would finally allow Him to rest and retire, something He desired since creating the GBC in 1970. This was not to be. He was hassled and harangued by those whose only thoughts were of their positions after his death. When I think of his final pastimes, I see the picture in 5th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, where the offspring are impatiently looking at their watches, only concerned with their inheritance. I remote view leaders, shoving paper after paper in front of him, demanding signatures, demanding his attendance at their bickering sessions (May 28), etc. Planning, plotting, coercing, cajoling! His requests (like parikrama, circumambulating Govardhana Hill, etc.) were rejected and denied.

 

 

 

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

Thank you so much MahksadasaPrabhu

I am with you %100, please also include words like "ritvik" in your junk pile, of which after you hear, one must take bath too.

 

I think that Iskcon should have listened to Prabhupada's description of the Gaudiya Matha, instead of doing the exact same things, and worse. Also any bogus movement that uses the 11 criminals on that letter should be considered the same.

 

I have come to the conclusion that you can tell if the movement is bonafide or not, simply by if they protect the planets cows, or if they protect "sacred cows"

 

 

sacred cow

A person or thing immune to criticism or questioning, as in The rules governing the press conference have become a sacred cow in this administration. This term alludes to the honored status of cows in Hinduism, where they are a symbol of God's generosity to humankind. It has been used figuratively since about 1900.

 

[Guest guest]

 

Thank you so much MahksadasaPrabhu

I am with you %100, please also include words like "ritvik" in your junk pile, of which after you hear, one must take bath too.

 

So when Srila Prabhupada spoke the word "ritvik" on May 28th 1977 in reference to initiations "when you are no longer with us"; or when he personally signed the July 9th letter which mentioned the word "rittik"; or when he spoke the word "ritvik" in conversations after July 9th; or when he used the word "ritvik" and its derivations more than 30 times in the Srimad-Bhagavatam; you think he was talking JUNK?

 

May the Lord have mercy on your soul.

[Guest guest]

 

So when Srila Prabhupada spoke the word "ritvik" on May 28th 1977 in reference to initiations "when you are no longer with us"; or when he personally signed the July 9th letter which mentioned the word "rittik"; or when he spoke the word "ritvik" in conversations after July 9th; or when he used the word "ritvik" and its derivations more than 30 times in the Srimad-Bhagavatam; you think he was talking JUNK?

 

May the Lord have mercy on your soul.

 

mahak: If one carefully analyzes this stuff, questions come to mind, like another item concerning teachings must be from potent source and heard by fertile minds. When one looks at may 28, an extremely doctored report, Srila Prabhupada does not say rtvik initially. This is satswarupa trying to teach Srila Prabhupada, correcting him. Another point, he is speaking to folks whose concern is about followers and properties, who are meditating on the death of their spiritual master. This meeting is JUNK. It is a planning session that records only the motives of these disciples.

 

The rtviks have researched rtvik in SB and have 30 quotes, which none of these citations have anything to do at all with a diksa guru initiation system. Rtvik means family priest.

 

No, srila Prabhupada does not speak junk, but materialistically motivated disciples may well be hearing junk.

 

As far as the lord having mercy on my soul, I dont have one. I have a body made of the eight elements, but sorry, I have no soul.

 

Now go research anywhere where Srila Prabhupada teaches, in his books, of a "guru initiation system". Show me where a past acarya initiates a disciple, post-samadhi, via a priest. Then curse my soul for not giving you any credibility whatsoever.

 

mahaksadasa

[bhaktachris 0]

 

So when Srila Prabhupada spoke the word "ritvik" on May 28th 1977 in reference to initiations "when you are no longer with us"; or when he personally signed the July 9th letter which mentioned the word "rittik"; or when he spoke the word "ritvik" in conversations after July 9th; or when he used the word "ritvik" and its derivations more than 30 times in the Srimad-Bhagavatam; you think he was talking JUNK?

 

May the Lord have mercy on your soul.

http://protectacow.typepad.com/goshalla/2005/01/a_c_bhaktivedan.html

Everyone agrees that the tapes heard of the May28th date were severely doctored and spliced as well as diced=useless. Plus TAMAL KRISHNA was the one who said "ritvik" not Prabhupada.

And he said that tamal's word would be used only when "you (Prabhupada) would no longer be with us", but WE followers of PRABHUPADA know that there will never be a time when "he is no longer with us". So when that time comes that Prabhupada will no longer be with us, THEN and only THEN will we need tamal's word.

 

July9th letter is a forgery, just look at the signature, =not Prabhupada's. You have accepted a forgery, you were fooled.

http://protectacow.typepad.com/goshalla/2005/01/a_c_bhaktivedan.html

I do not remember anytime where he spoke of tamal's word after July 9th, i only remember him asking for and not getting his FINAL WISH, to be taken on BULLOCK CART TO GOVARDHANA HILL ON GOVARDHANA PUJA DAY. (He said that would CURE him) Are you siding with tamal? Who did not allow him to be CURED?

http://protectacow.typepad.com/goshalla/2005/01/a_c_bhaktivedan.html

As far as the derivations of tamals word, there might be, but no mention that we will need a faction of criminals and homosexuals and druggies to be our derivations, at the time which will never come. (at that time when you will no longer be with us)

 

Tamal is dead, Prabhupada is still with US, is Prabhupada still with you? Why do you need the words of tamal?

http://protectacow.typepad.com/goshalla/2005/01/a_c_bhaktivedan.html

Look for the LIFESTYLE OF A HARE KRISHNA DEVOTEE, AS PRABHUPADA INSTRUCTED......... Vrndavan life, Simple Living/High Thinking, Cow Protection, that is the FINAL ORDER AND CURE. Not something spoken by tamal!

 

http://protectacow.typepad.com/goshalla/2005/01/a_c_bhaktivedan.html

 

Prabhupada: I wish that you GBC manage very nicely and consider I am dead and LET ME TRAVEL TO ALL THE TIRTHASTHANA. Without any responsibility. If I become recovered from this malady I shall come back and then I shall die in, what is it when the dead body is there, let them bring to Mayapura and Vrndavana. I am thinking in this way. Bring little medicine and no medicine, little milk, and travel one place to another and if there is death, what is the lamentation? My age is ripe. IN THE OPEN AIR AND BULLOCK CART or during daytime, eh? Or you can say semi-suicide, although living what consider me dead for the time. You manage and nowadays there is in India ample sunshine.

 

Prabhupada: BUT I THINK I SHALL BE CURED.

 

http://protectacow.typepad.com/goshalla/2005/01/a_c_bhaktivedan.html

[Guest guest]

Since I titled this topic uly 9, my comments will focus on the bogus authority of this document. The rtvik claims thaT THIS inter-temple memo from Tamal to TPs and GBCs establishes initiation system to be carried out AFTER Srila Prabhupada is no longer with us.

 

There is a big flaw, here, which I have pointed out continually. There is no mention of him no longer being with us, after samadhi, after he leaves the planet, on the July 9 memo. The rtviks want to link July 9 with the May 28 GBC meeting, but anyone who knows business knows there is no implicit items in a document purported to be a standard operating procedure. So, even if the signature on July 9 is authentic, then ONLY the items covered on that document are subject to the authority of that signature. Srila Prabhupada was a very careful businessman, and such a major thing such as the phrase "when you are no longer with us" would be on the document if this is what he desired. However, as stated previously, this was NOT a letter diuctated by the CEO to a secretary for world distribution to the managers. This is the secretary acting on his own, under his own motivations. The dryness of the document, the flaws, and the naming of already discredited persons as appointed leaders is nothing more than a scam by tamal to establish a power base for his cabal over the properties and disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

 

The rtviks always say his signature means that he bought off on the rtvik plan of post samadhi initiations, but his signature is nowhere to be found on any such document. July 9 has no mention of any such scenario, and implies just the opposite, establishing Srila Prabhupadas personal role continuing in any proxy initiation by being the recipient of the names of the newly initiated disciples.

 

At most, if one insists that the names are okay to read and his signature is authentic, the memo grants authority to eleven disciples from July 9 to November 14, 1977. But even then, one still has to explain why some disciples other than the eleven mentioned on July 9 carried out proxy initiations of disciples whose names WERE sent, and WERE included in the book of names of his disciples.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[bhaktachris 0]

Agreed, Mahaksadasa Prabhu!

 

The ritviks (followers of tamal) also say that the letter of tamal does not say that the 11 would be "guru" but just says they will be rittik.

 

But i always point out that Prabhupada's idea of something done, is to....

"judge a thing by it's result" and we all know what the result of the letter written by tamal.

 

So i agree whole heartedly with you, the letter written by tamal worked perfectly for what he wanted.

 

Tamal wanted to change the system being used for years to this date of tamal's letter. Many devotees, most house holders would recommend the disciple to be Prabhupada's and then they also would carry out the Sacrifice. When tamal wrote this letter, he wanted to get his as well as those who would cooperate on a letter that looked bonafide (just see the ritviks still think it is, and still call it their 'position paper').

 

It worked perfect, and now we have what we have. Exactly like the Gaudiya Matha. With the addition of a splinter group who is against the other, but is just the same. IRM/Iskcon

 

I joined the International Society of Krishna Consciousness.

You can tell when you are a member, cuz' you will see people protecting cows.

[Guest guest]

 

There is no mention of him no longer being with us, after samadhi, after he leaves the planet, on the July 9 memo [...] At most, if one insists that the names are okay to read and his signature is authentic, the memo grants authority to eleven disciples from July 9 to November 14, 1977.

 

 

 

You say there is no mention of SP's departure in the J9 memo. Then you say at most the memo grants authority only up to November 14, 1977 - which is the date of SP's departure! Sounds like you be one confused man, prabhu.

[Guest guest]

why explain anything. Since J9 has no mention of SPs departure, the memo is made out to be SOP during his presence, including his role of accepting names from the representatives, an active role.

 

Is J9 Really Srila Prabhupada's teachings to those who profess rtvikism? This is really a lame idea, that a hastily drawn up document with misspellings and such dry ideology, written by one who proved to be a liar and a thief by his own admission, a document that itself was held up from distribuition by the author (dont ask me for reasons of the insane), and summarizing that eleven discredited persons are to be the leaders of the Vaisnava world, this is yopur teachings descending from the spiritual strata?

 

This love of J9 as shastra is rejected vehemently by myself. As mentioned, I accept ideas of representing the acarya, even post samadhi, even the idea of initiating as an officiating acarya (not some family priest rtvik), but not on the authority of these artificially and coerced written schemes of the kali cela. I also fully reject any slamming of even the worst thieeves and murderers in the content of any rag deemed to be transcendental literature. If i want child molester justice storuies, Ill get the globe or USA today or some other tabloid. If you think he is so pleased with BTP, did you ever try to slam another of his disciples, even his fallen ones who had left him, in his actual presence? No, you never did, nor would you have gotten away with it. You are so bold against his initiated disciples with him safely in the ground. His head of New Dwaraka was soo severely chastized for saying that a sanyassi disciple (who all the GBC hated) was not bonafide, even when hamsaduta lost germany due to impropriety and Srila Prabhupada was so displeassed with him, no one better, in his presence, say anything bad about hamsaduta. So, in his service, dont say that to me either.

 

Ive said many bad things about my peers over the years, all trying to be pleasing to others who hated these same individuals. They cared nothing for my spiritual well being, they cheered me on, reprinted my material on their vaisnava bashing networks. I reject you all, publically. I disassociate with all the bashers of those who have asttempted to be pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. While it may be one thing to warn others of abusers, false accusations against devotees or blaspheming those just because they may have a different service (to my ZERO service, if the truth is the goal) countert any piety and innocence in warning.

 

Maybe it is reading those eleven names over and over again, maybe the actual vision of the J9 letter, maybe this is the POISON he was referring to. My own opinion, J9 has poisoned him.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

 

why explain anything. Since J9 has no mention of SPs departure, the memo is made out to be SOP during his presence, including his role of accepting names from the representatives, an active role.

 

 

You say J9 has no mention of departure. So why did the GBC terminate it on departure? Makes NO sense to terminate a signed directive from the Acarya on a date which is not even specified in the directive!

[mahak 0]

Haribol, bhakta tom and other readers and writers. I do offer you my humble obiesancies and only wish for your success in your service to Srila Prabhupada. Though I may take a differing view, this has no effect on our unity. I am also concerned with others who may think I favor ill treatment against those who dissent. I have deep concern, and I always recommend that festivals that seem to be of vaisnava origin may indeed be run by kali cela, and sometimes complete boycott is a better course. We did very small rathayatras back in the day when we were shunned by the rank and file, and these festivals were quite sublime despite our exile. I am always gladdened to see activities taught by Srila Prabhupada are being carried on by his followers without support of the foundation that bears his name.

 

That said, frankly, I have no idea why these folks did what they did. Makes no sense to me either. If I wanted to commit such high crimes and felonies, I would have covered my bases much better. I always think of the wife of our original Spiritual master, Srimati Saraswati, the goddess of intelligence, moved directly to take whatever intelligence these folks had away the moment they conspired against Srila Prabhupada and his disciples. Never have I seen such bufoonery. From a previous posting, a part of a series:

 

I have been quite concerned about my writings here. I have seen what dwelling on criminal behavior produces, bitterness. And though I pay deserved obiesancies to my dear godbrother, the very kind and humble Puranjana das, I can also see how bitterness affects us. So, in my reporting, I try not to dwell on bad behavior, but some of this has to be mentioned to get to the gist of my report, on how we were betrayed very seriously, and how this happened even while Srila Prabhupada was physically present.

Other reports, including the "Monkey on a Stick", concentrate on the horrors after 11-14-1977. And these are indeed shocking, and I have only deep sympathy for all those who were adversely affected, especially my sisters and their children. But the central point of me even bothering to write these things, which I would rather not, is to show that the domination by the criminal element included domination over Srila Prabhupada, his form weakened by ill health and old age, and domination over the reports, memoes, tape recordings, all of it, including the will, the J9 document, the may 28 GBC meeting, etc. All of these things were greatly manipulated

by the criminal element just as certainly as the events after His departure.

Some are aghast that anyone would comment on loss of control of ISKCON prior to 11-14-77. I certainly dont mean any offence by making such declarations, but in order to understand how everything was spoiled, we have to investigate all angles. And these angles include the tour of 1976, when center after center was visited by Prabhupada in order to correct disturbances created by the so-called leadership and GBC. As mentioned, corrections were made at New Nabadwipa, but then immediately after Srila Prabhupada left the center, the evil element returned to dominate his humble and honest disciples. NYC as well, when Srila Prabhupada closed down Bali Mardanas white slavery, it all returned after he went away.

So they held him, kept us away even though he was calling us to his side, butchered his words (hundreds of missing archives, tapes, hundreds of intercepted letters incoming as well as outgoing), and devised their plans. I mentioned the Oct. 5, 1977, archive where he tells them, "I have given everything you want". This is a horrendous statement, because it reads like a statement of a hostage, and upon further analysis, we can see Stockholm Syndrome as well, dependence on the captors.

This is why I insist on verification by his published and unadulterated books. Even letters have little value, because we only have copies of his letters in response to disciples. To get proper context of such teachings, we have to hear the question. So, if I read a letter that begins, "I have received your letter, dated - ------, and noted its content", the first thing I demand before I read further (this personal letter to an individual disciple) is to

read the letter he mentions in his response. But we dont have any of these, becausae Srila Prabhupada did not throw such personal letters around as if the disciples individuality did not even matter. Now ask yourself this, do we not get Pariksits questions prior to Sukadevas perfect answers? Do we not get arjunas points before clarification by Lord Krsna? Is vidura silent and we just get Maitreyas lessons?

No, personal responses by Parbhupada are incomplete, just as Bhagavatam would be incomplete if Maitreyas answers were given and Viduras questions were not included.

His books are the only safe refuge in this age of chaos quarrel and confusion. So, if something is not in his books, or in clear addresses, or public record like interviews (where all the reporters questions are included), I dont accept, clear and simple as that. And I have good reason as well, because Ive seen letters by him to disciples that have been as butchered as to meaning just as certain as some of the blatant "meaning changes" of the adventuresome editors who make changes in His name, knowing that without his name, no one would ever read.

I know that chanting the names of aparadhis and listing crimes of kali cela is not devotional service in any way, shape, or form. In fact, Ive had a serious falling out with PADA because I got tired of his rhetoric and didnt want to hear it anymore. And I fully support those who dont want to hear from me anymore as well. But I write just to tie in crimes against US before Srila Prabhupada's maha samadhi, something that is not discussed at all. I have been a thorn in the side of reformers who state they want things as they were prior to 11-14-77, because I state that it was hellish for all

to many then, too, the children, the women, etc. And listening to the IVC study, the poison tapes, etc, things were not so hot for our beloved Spiritual master, neither, which is why he refused to even associate with his leaders, preferring Sri Narayan Maharaja and other godbrother's company.

 

TBC

 

mahaksadasa

[suchandra 1]

 

I know that chanting the names of aparadhis and listing crimes of kali cela is not devotional service in any way, shape, or form. In fact, Ive had a serious falling out with PADA because I got tired of his rhetoric and didnt want to hear it anymore. And I fully support those who dont want to hear from me anymore as well. But I write just to tie in crimes against US before Srila Prabhupada's maha samadhi, something that is not discussed at all. I have been a thorn in the side of reformers who state they want things as they were prior to 11-14-77, because I state that it was hellish for all

to many then, too, the children, the women, etc. And listening to the IVC study, the poison tapes, etc, things were not so hot for our beloved Spiritual master, neither, which is why he refused to even associate with his leaders, preferring Sri Narayan Maharaja and other godbrother's company.

 

TBC

 

mahaksadasa

But then you say de facto that it is the GBC's job to rubber stamp boat loads of candidates as pure devotees, whereas it is our job to see if there's any one bona fide to be a trustworthy spiritual master? And if you pick up the wrong - too bad, they appointed a molester as guru and you were stupid enough to have accepted this judgement!

So is this not a little like the counterfeit printer saying to the judge, "Your honor, these fools accepted my bogus money - they are the criminals, why you get on my case?"

Never heard any judge to fall for that one - although in present kali-yuga anything might be possible.

[Guest guest]

I wouldnt fall for that one, either. But, the fact remains, as fully taught in Srila Prabhupadas Science of Self Realization, Chapter two, the devotee must take some of the responsibility. Srila Prabhupada teaches of the omniscience of Krsna, knowing full well of the sincerity of the candidate for devotional service, and thus inspiring the spiritual master to appear before him to help his advancement via external manifestation of Supersoul. So, we cannot justifiably take the blame away from one who thinks a person with criminal tendencies apparent is the one Krsna sent him. Omniscient means that the person is given exactly what he wants.

 

Also, never anywhere in my thousands of writings on the internet have I said " de facto that it is the GBC's job to rubber stamp boat loads of candidates as pure devotees." The GBC was never created for such a purpose, never had that commission. Their commission is business management, period. Their commission is to pay rent, keep the publishing going on, make sure the festivals are successful, etc. This is where they made critical blunder, thinking that they were in any way connected with the spiritual lives of Srila Prabhupadas disciples.

 

Sanyassis may have had such a commission, but this is in course of their asrama, as preachers. They too failed, not because of eventual fall down from their false renunciation, but because they never desired to live simply and think highly. Many thought that they had reached a pinnacle by being awarded sanyassi, whereas, a genuine sanyassi only thinks of his position as lower than the straw in the street, a servant, not a master, of Srila Prabhupadas disciples. This puffed up attitude of many was also quite prevalent during Srila Prabhupadas manifestation. The sanyassi thought there was a competition against the householder temple presidents, and always tried to gain followers, not for prabhupada, but their own little regimes of personality cult. The kirtanananda cult, the TKG cult, the guru krpa cult, so many cults, and all robbing the temples blind, all with their cabals of thieves destroying the whole notion of samkirtana.

 

Srila Prabhupada vehemently opposed this criminality, and continually chastized those responsible for fracturing factionalism, but to no avail. They had him where they wanted him, in isolation, guarded against his disciples by violation of human rights.

 

Bottom line, if someone tells you that so and so is guru because he was made so by a committee who read his application for guruship and the majority concurred that he was qualified, if you accept this guru on the strength of the committee, then the committee is more powerful that the so-called empowered representative of Lord Nityananda. Something is drastically wrong with anyone who accepts such nonsense. Perhaps it is just laziness, a critical problem of us all in this age, but maybe there is a motivating factor in all of this as well. Maybe it is the prestiege of being linked with the big money dudes, maybe its love of the rasa of hillbilliness or the love of guns toted in the beadbags. Maybe being a brahmacari under the guidance of such a guru means control of the women also under their control, however one sees fit.

 

Disciple must take responsibility. If you got a bad guru, this means that you have no guru, that Lord Nityananda has not inspired anyone to appear before you because you lack the sincerity needed to be a part of guru tattwa. Krsna knows us better than we will ever know ourselves. All who got mixed up with kali cela dont have to worry, though, because there is no such thing as a bad guru, and bad people pretending to be gurus have no lasting damaging effect on ones spiritual life. Even in regard to offenses, even a kanistha adhikari, who is linked up to a genuine guru, is stated to be in the offensive stage of bhakti yoga. So one not even a kanistha adhikari should not overly be concerned by his past associations with rascals, if they are serious and developing sincerity, Krsna will not miss that emotion and fail to send help in the form of his empowered representative.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS BTW, I rejected the GBC long before November 14, 1977.

[Guest guest]

Haribol, Many devotees I knew did not buy into the so-called biker raid on NV, as early as 73-74. We were apalled at the amount of guns flowing into the society and the thugs that espoused their use. We were also apalled at how sanyassis were depleating operational funds of the householder

temple presidents. We were apalled at the insistance of thievery in the name of samkirtana.

 

But most apalling was the fact that many factions already existed prior to Srila Prabhupadas disappearance, so-called devotees accepting spiritual masters other than Prabhupada. There was the NV camp, the german camp, the japan thugs, the horrifying way one usurped the very mellow and spiritual RKTSP of Visnujanan maharaja and turned it into a travelling extortion ring. And toward the end, I found it apalling that folks were deciding which one to throw in with. In fact, when I rejoined ISKCON after the hoards of replacements came to the very pleasing center, I was so disturbed that I literally begged Sudama Swami to send me to the farm so I could avoid the nazis joining en masse to ruin the whole atmosphere of a center unique in that previously, the public very much liked us and appreciated how hard we worked to support ourselves at menial jobs, etc. In 1972, we actually had police protection at the international marketplace while we distributed

books, BTGs and had great kirtanas where everyone, local and tourist alike, joined in. In 1975, ISKCON was simply a nuisance to society with the influx of japan-style scamkirtana. Fortunately, there were still devotees who held to the old ways, on the big island, on maui, etc, and Srila Prabhupadas disciples grew without the coelho drive influence.

 

So, we come to who controlled ISKCON during this period, perhaps from early 1976. Srila Prabhupadas farm was sold to pay for a ridiculous and pompous center on coelho drive. It was a great facility, but at what cost? The final kicker for me, personally (because I was a cowherd), was that five beautiful mother devotees, named, Khamadhuka, Bhumi, mon mohini, lalita and vishaka, had their farm sold out from under them. These cows were sold, and I know one of the dudes that bought one of them, who murdered Bhumi, the

sweetest person I ever associated with, by beating her with a 2x4. Srila Prabhupada did not sanction activities rampant in his society in 1976. He did not allow funds to be attained by crime, banishing ISKCON from a carefully cultivated center, Japan. He did not sanction the horrors of germany by nazis who pretended to be his. He did not sanction the blackmarketeering of disco-king thru his agents from laguna (mule-driver and his coke freak buddies) who were so evil they even stole an honest business endeavor of other hard

working and honest disciples, only to use it as a front for his illegal activities. But these things went unchecked for so long. Devotees who spoke out were threatened to the point of exile, and the story of their demise was embellished to the point that they were smoking dope and couldnt handle the principles anymore. Not all that different from the Visnujannana story of suicide, which I also dont buy for one fathom of a second.

 

Anyway, Ill stop for now, and get to the J9 soon. I hate doing this, I sound like PADA with all of this, and I dont want to die hating all devotees, lumping all in to the evils of a very select few. We were under control of a diabolical element, just as Srila Prabhupada was held against his will. But Srila Prabhupada was unmatched as a vaisnava warrior, because he defeated all of his captors, even while he was still here. In fact, later Ill get into the fact that ONLY ELEVEN OF HIS DISCIPLES WERE PREVENTED FROM EVER BEING GURUS, those named on J9.

 

If ya gotta Monkey on a stick book handy, check out what the reporters said concluding the fiasco of Bali Mardan and (watta hog) ms toyota, who was a laughing stock to all the devotees I knew long before the fool married her. This is very good, how the reporters explained how srila prabhupada felt about all who were following this jerk (bali mardana) even though he was a white slaver. He praised the disciples hard work, but demanded that they carefully examine all whom they are following and serving, otherwise they are

great fools and all their service is nil.

 

In closing, read the will. It is a whos who of diaboilcal rip-offs, not just offenders of Srila Prabhupada, but exploiters of whom he loved more than his life itself, his disciples. Youll see them inheriting much, even though Srila Prabhupada publically declared that one would amount to nothing after ISKCON was expelled from Japan. Another inherited much, after losing extremely valuable properties in germany. Another inherited much, even though Srila Prabhupada presided over the NYC devotees running him out of town on a rail. And the eleven most repressive pretend-disciples named to

caretake those disciples they loathed on J9.

 

tbc, mahaksadasa

[mahak 0]

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Srila Prabhupada clearly spoke of his position, saying that he was an old man. Of course, there is absolutely no indication that what I have written is opposed to his actual position as mahabhagavata, but the fact of the matter, all spiritual guides face severe problems from this animal realm. And who is to say that any of this alters his plan or the plan of Lord Nityananda Prabhu. In fact, shastra is full of pastimes of dread, which increase the love of those who care for the martyred victims of the oppressive force of this material world.

Srila Prabhupada was bedridden. He had no facility to go get his own mail, he

was dependent on unscrupulous kali cela for simple things. Do you think he received any letters from disciples who were disclosing horrible activities of many of his leaders? No, he did not. The letters were used to make targets out of his senior disciples who were driven away. Did you receive word that you were specifically invited to vrndavan to experiance his disappearance pastime? No you did not. Did you ever consider the feeling of your spiritual master, having specifically invited all of us, and having none of us show up?

In fact, as I mentioned, I was a member of the tail end of the Independent

Vaisnava council which investigated the "whispers" tape. One of the points I made to the commission is that Srila Prabhupada used the word "poison" to indicate offensive behavior which ruins everything. "I am being poisoned" may also mean that everything he has accomplished has been torn asunder by the criminals who now controlled the movement as well as all his disciples.

Now I am not being weird here, at all. I cite Srila Prabhupadas use of the word

poison in many instances, including in the translation of a song he sung often. I am also not being weird by saying that these eleven controlled all the disciples, because we became dependent on them. And they withheld crucial information from us, therefore, Srila Prabhupada did not control the society, these people did. This is not offensive to Srila Prabhupada, this statement, it is matter of fact. And it is matter of fact that ISKCON has nothing to do with Srila Prabhupada. If one insists everything is under his control, this is what I call weird and extremely offensive. This is saying that Srila Prabhupada sanctions everything that has happened in his name, including all these horrors we have witnessed.

This whole disclosure is to separate Srila Prabhupada from all this horrible

activity. One cannot have it both ways. To say that Guru Krpa, Black Keith, the Nazi, Ms Toyota das, etc, were given everything means that Srila Prabhupada

APPROVED of ALL THEIR WHITE SLAVERY AND HOW THEY ALL TREATED

US, NOT IN THE MID-80S or early 90s, but on July 9, 1977, because these fools did not suddenly change.

 

This is my point, they did not suddenly change, they demanded his property, and he gave it to them. They negotiated for positions over us, and he gave it to them. But what did he give them? On october 5, 1977, he said he had given them everything THEY wanted.

This is where his wonderful protection for us all comes in. He gave them the

rope to hang themselves with. He gave them all they needed so intelligent disciples could see VERY CLEARLY what kind of demons we were dealing with. And he even wrote about it in, not his letters, not memoes to an elite 100, but in his books. He states that his society has been infiltrated with demons in the garb of vaisnavas, and this teaching is just as clear as Lord Jesus warning to all about those who call themselves christians.

"ISKCON may very well go to hell, it is up to my disciple not to follow them

there." This is what he said to me and about 20 other of his disciples outside ISKCON. I have heard of similar statements to others on different occasions, but they are accurate. He was victimized by demons who had no idea of what disciple means. They were negotiating, even some who value J9 say this that he bought off via his signature. But dont you see, these are not disciples. Disciples are not in anxiety about what is gonna happen after disappearance, they are full of instruction and full of sraddha that Krsna will protect. Srila Prabhupada is not in anxiety about what is gonna happen after he leaves, he knows KRSNA will protect. And he has. ISKCON has no spiritual authority whatsoever, it is a shadow of Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON. If one does not accept this fact, and still thinks that ISKCON is connected with Srila

Prabhupada, then explain all the problems away or hide them, or lie and protect those criminals, as has been done. This is the evil we see on the plate, we eat or discard.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

Alfred Brush Ford leases the temple on Coelho Way to ISKCON for $1 a year; it is one of the few temples in the world NOT owned by ISKCON but in fact is owned by a private individual. Therefore the assertion that "SP's farm was sold to pay for a ridiculous and pompous center on Coelho Drive" seems to be inaccurate.

 

Also what is so "pompous and ridiculous" about the Coelho Way property? It's a nice two acre estate that includes a restaurant in a garden setting which hosts the Vegetarian Society of Hawaii's annual Thanksgiving Dinner. It's convenient location, a short drive up the Pali Highway, makes it possible for business people from the nearby financial district go to all-you-can-eat vegetarian buffet and partake of a three drops of charanamrita lunch versus a three martini affair.

 

It's prime location plus $1 a year lease has made it possible for the temple to now have more satellite Govinda's restaurants at Fort Street Mall and on the campus of the University of Hawaii at the Sustainability Courtyard. Your problem with this is...?

[Guest guest]

The "ridiculous and pompous" temple provides free vegetarian meals for the homeless every Monday Wednesday and Friday at Ala Moana Beach Park.

How many thousands of meals for the homeless have you provided over the last three decades without fail?

 

Also the "ridiculous and pompous" temple participates in Martin Luther King Day parade and Aloha Day Parade with a Ratha Yatra? How many Ratha Yatras have you staged over the past three decades and won awards for, winning Best of Show and millions of people watch it: the thousands of people there and then the millions of people who see it on camcorder when the tourists go home and show their friends and relatives what they saw on their Hawaiian vacation? I wonder.

 

And the "ridiculous and pompous" temple consistently ranks at the top of small temples [one to fifteen devotees] with book distribution World Sankirtan Scores. How many books of your spiritual master have you distributed over the past three decades?

 

They couldn't achieve all those results without the central location that they lease for $1 a year from Alfred Brush Ford.

[mahak 0]

Haribol. I deeply apologize for my rhetoric which refers to a time 30 years ago. I know decisions are made from a business angle, but the fact remains that Coelho's beginning also co-insided with an ISKCON sale of 40 acres of prime real estate on the big island that resulted in the deaths of Mon Mohini, Bhumi, Lalita, Visaka, and their little calves. Only Kamadhuka and her son, Nandi, survived the ordeal, purchased by a devotee.

 

I am actually glad to hear of the thriving condition of coelho if it is as you say. My rhetoric refers to a time when devotees, who were previously protected by police and thouroughly supported by the community was replaced by new arrivals whose practice of so-called samkirtana was nothing more than extortion and fleecing of tourists, the result being that devotees were (correctly) regarded as thugs, rip-offs, etc.

 

Anyway, again I apologize for any pain or disturbanmce I may have caused by not prefeacing my remarks about events many decades ago. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS Coelho is a first class property, and Srila Prabhupada especially found peace there to translate, despite the ridiculous behavior of some of the devotees who would congregate there to fight and bicker with each other, despite Srila Prabhupadas continual pleas for them to stop before they ruin everything. I hope you have made a shrine out of his banyan tree, where he would give his vani in full to all who would sit with him.