to Muralidhar dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Mralidhar prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila BR Sridhar dev Gosvami, Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami and Srila Govindadev Gosvami.

 

I was wondering if you had ever done as suggested and approached Srila Ananta dasa Babaji on these issues? Caitanya Nitai prabhu made excellent points, in the post below mine, about your assuming Ananta dasa Babaji's teachings and as you did so in such a public forum it is only fair that you tell us what you have learned.

 

Like Caitanya Nitai prabhu I also had the opportunity to meet Ananta dasa Babaji Maharaja in the company of a few ISKCON Swami's and their followers and he was so gracious and sweet to all. I attended one public lecture which had many ISKCON and Gaudiya Matha people in attendance. I even heard that Ananta dasa Babaji and many other Babaji's at Radha Kunda paid proper respects to the passing and samadhi rights of Srila Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaja.

 

While there certainly are differences it doesn't seem to be an issue to anyone except you and Madhavananda prabhu in the past tense.

 

As far as your statements of sadhana and the practice of siddha deha as an aid to ones sadhana you have stated that it is against the Srila Sanatana Goswami? Of course of Guruvarga doesn't practice such things but our Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura certainly did as did many of those before and after him. How do you reconcile?

 

Your servant,

Radha Govinda dasa

 

Dear Muralidhar dasa,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada, Srila Sridhar Deva Goswami and Srila Govinda Swami.

 

If you want to make statements about Srila Ananta dasa Babaji Maharaja than you should read his books as well as enquire from him on what he is presenting and teaching. As you well know when we read books we may find faults or misunderstand a point or the context in which something is spoken. I believe if we all did this with one another’s Guru’s there would be so much less fighting in the Vaisnava world.

 

As someone who has read Srila Ananta dasa Babaji Maharajas books and met him on a few occasions I can tell you that you have him and his teachings very wrong. He is a wonderful Vaisnava and was always kind to me and my Gurudeva regardless of my saffron dress and our faith in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Does he share the same faith or philosophical understandings? No, but that isn’t an offense.

 

If you want to criticize another, especially such a senior Vaisnava, than you must submit your questions to them and understand the context and meanings of their statements to truly be ableto say you understand what they are teaching and profess it to be incorrect. Otherwise you are fighting the same straw men that many of these “traditionalists” fight on regards to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada. Let us not fall to the same traps. Comparing Pitambara to Srila Ananta dasa Babaji Maharaja is obscene.

 

I do not know Madhavananda dasa so I can’t speak to his ability to properly represent his Gurudeva. However history teaches us that many disciples cannot properly represent their Gurudeva in their lifetime. So many have made a mockers of Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and even Srila Sridhar Maharaja. I doubt you would want your Gurudeva and others you have faith in ripped down because of the foolishness of many of their followers. I know it pains me every time I see it as I am sure it pains you. To see how others make Srila Prabhupada, Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Sila Narayana Maharaja look like such fools on a regular basis should easily help you understand the dangers of allowing disciples to define how we see others.

 

Gaura Hari Bolo!

 

Caitanya Nitai dasa

[muralidhar_das 0]

Dandavats,

 

All glory to Sri Guru and Gauranga.

 

I do not know anyone called Radha Govinda dasa or Caitanya Nitai dasa. I might say I'm a little suspicious that someone would publish an open letter addressed to me on this forum. Someone who I don't know is inviting me to enter into a public discussion where my thoughts and beliefs are to be publicly examined. Hiding their real identity, someone may be using these names "Radha Govinda dasa" and "Caitanya Nitai dasa" as a cover. I just don't know...

 

Anyhow having said that, I am not certain I know what you are talking about in regard to Ananta das Babaji either. Could you be more specific?

 

I have never met Ananta das Babaji. Moreover, I have no desire to meet him.

 

Perhaps it might seem arrogant to say I have no desire to meet Ananta das Babaji (or some other individual who some people regard as Vaishnava or sadhu). But I am an initiated disciple of Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj and a descendent of Prabhupada 108 Sri Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura; and in view of some things I know Ananta das Babaji has said about Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakura I have no desire to see Ananta das Babaji.

 

Specifically, Madhavananda das is an initiated disciple of Ananta das Babaji and Madhavananda has said Ananta das Babaji told him that the disciples in the lineage of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura do not have a proper guru-parampara. I have read statements by other disciples of Ananta das Babaji saying the same thing.

 

I guess I could go googling to find the exact statements. But why should I bother spending my time doing that?

 

If you want to go and listen to Ananta das Babaji then go right ahead but I have no desire to enter into that kind of association.

 

For several years I engaged in long, extensive debates with Madhavananda, Jagadananda, Minaketana Ramdas, Nitai das Delmonico, Premananda, Gaurasundara and other people who believe in the siddha-pranali notion taught by Ananta das Babaji and other like-minds. I was outraged and deeply disturbed by the allegations and viciousness of the attacks these people were making against my Guru-varga. Along with many others such as Puru das, Bhakti Vikasa Swami, Bhakti Sudhir Goswami, Narasingha Maharaj, etc. I spent many hours (years) of thought examining the arguments these "anti-party" individuals were presenting. The most extreme and abusive statements were made against Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Saraswati Thakura. Again and again I responded to "posts" written by this vicious bunch of scholarly critics. Was it worth it? Perhaps not.

 

But then again...

 

I really believe Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was pleased by the way those years of debate came to a climax and final conclusion. Jagadananda admitted the link between Bipin Bihari and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was severed. It became clear as daylight on these internet forums that it was not the siddha-pranali school and Lalita Prashad who are the real descendents of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Instead, Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura is the real heir of the spiritual tradition of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

 

The siddha-pranali tradition of Ananta das Babaji is a hoax. Ditto to the so-called "raganuga bhakti" that the siddha-pranali tradition is teaching. If some "few ISKCON Swamis" want to attend the classes of Ananta das Babaji then good luck to them. What they do is none of my business and I'm not interested in slinging insults at them.

 

But what I am convinced about is that Srila Saraswati Thakura, the true heir of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, did not teach his disciples to follow the type of sadhana that the followers of "ekadasa bhava" follow, and moreover that I don't need to go to Ananta das Babaji or anyone else of his tradition in order to learn about ekadasa bhava, siddha-pranali or anything else. Srila Saraswati Thakura is my hero and I'm not interested in associating with people who minimize the greatness of him.

 

cira-gaura-janasraya-visva-gurum

guru-gaura-kisoraka-dasya-padam

paramadrta-bhaktivinoda-padam

pranamami sada prabhupada-padam

 

"Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada is the eternal shelter and the Universal Guru for the souls surrendered unto Sri Gauranga. Absorbed in the service of his Gurudeva, Sri Gaura Kisora, he wholeheartedly adores Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakura. I make my obeisance unto him; perpetually do I make my obeisance unto the effulgence emanating from the toenails of the holy feet of my Lord."

 

- sanskrit verse by Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj

[Guest guest]

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

No, we have never met. I have never meat many devotees that I encounter on cyber sanga but i can assure you I do exist. I just stumbled upon this forum today and after reading so many threads I stumbled upon one where a devotee made some points to you about things you were saying about Ananta dasa Babaji. His points seemed reasonable and wondered what your answers were. I pasted his letter to you below my letter.

 

As far as your feelings of what Ananta dasa Babaji may have said are you saying that because some disciple said he said something about Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada that it must be so? As was said in the letter to you history teaches us that many disciples cannot properly represent their Gurudeva. So many have made a mockery of Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and even Srila Sridhar Maharaja by telling others "what they said". I doubt you would want your Gurudeva and others you have faith in ripped down because of the foolishness of many of their followers. I mean are you secure with the many things every one of your godbrothers or godsisters has ever said especially in representing Srla Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and others? People write books about how much Srila Prabhupada disliked his Godbrothers based off of his own statements, most of which are taken out of context, but still said by him. How do you reconcile that?

 

I am very surprised to see you speak of Puru das, Bhakti Vikasa Swami, Bhakti Sudhir Goswami, Narasingha Maharaj as being some sort of consorts. Their feelings towards Srila Govinda Maharaja, Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami and towards one another is much worse than anything I have ever heard before and that you can read in their own words! I know Narayana Maharaja has little to nothing good to say about any of them outside of Puru! Your group outcasts Narasingha and Tripurari Maharajas as being those who failed to follow the orders of Sridhar Dev Goswami in accepted Govinda Maharaja as Acarya and that they shouldn't have their own disciples. Yet you make an artificial enemy with Ananta dasa Babaji because something a disciple said? Is that the only way that the Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON can get along?

 

I googled the names you spoke of regarding Ananta dasa Babaji and none of these people seem to be his disciples except Madhavananda and from the looks of it they don't seem to be in agreement with one another on much!

 

I guess what I am saying is that if you have never read any of Ananta dasa Babaji's books, spoken with him or know exactly what it is he is teaching how can you have such a strong opinion about him?

 

Are you really saying that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura didn't practice siddha deha?!?!?! Have you actually read any of his books?

 

Personally I don't know much about Ananta dasa Babaji and I don't have inspiration to find out much besides what I saw and experienced. Again he seemed much more friendly, affectionate and kind, which are all strong Vaisnava qualities, than most members of the Gaudiya Matha are towards one another! The reason I asked about this in the first place is that I just find it so sad that Vaisnavas think so badly and aggressively about one another especially when most of the time they don't know one another and everything is based on conceived notions about the other.

 

Oh well.

 

Your servant,

Radha Govinda dasa

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

<CENTER>Boycott the Sahajiya Babajis

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

</CENTER>http://bvml.org/SBNM/btsb.htm

excerpt:

 

". . . they don't accept that the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya is one of the sakhas, branches, of the Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya, although this fact has been clearly explained by Sri Kavi Karnipura, Srila Jiva Gosvami, and then by Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana Prabhu. It has also been explained by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, by my Gurudeva, that is, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and also by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja.

 

 

Secondly, they think that Sri Prabhodananda Sarasvati and Prakasananda Sarasvati are the same person, although there is so much difference between them. This cannot be so. Will a person of the Ramanuja Sampradaya go down to become a Mayavadi like Prakasananda Sarasvati, and then again become Prabhodananda Sarasvati, who was so exalted that he became the guru of Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami? This idea is absurd. Prabhodananda Sarasvati and Prakasananda Sarasvati were contemporaries. Will the same person go back and forth, being a Vaisnava in South India, then becoming a Mayavadi, again becoming a Vaisnava in Vrndavana, and again becoming a Mayavadi? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has vividly written about this, and great historians and research scholars have also rejected the idea that they are the same person.

 

Thirdly, they don’t give proper honor to Sri Jiva Gosvami, and this is a very big blunder. This is a vital point. They say that Jiva Gosvami is of svakiya-bhava, that he never supported parakiya-bhava, and that he is against parakiya-bhava. They say that in his explanations of Srimad Bhagavatam and Brahma-samhita, in his own books like Gopala Campu, and especially in his Sri Ujjvala-nilamani tika, he has written against parakiya-bhava. This is their greatest blunder. We don’t accept their statements at all. . ."

[muralidhar_das 0]

Radha Govinda dasa please tell me the name of your diksa and siksa gurus, if you want to have a discussion with me about these things.

 

Obviously you know lots of gossip about various people such as Bhakti Vikasa Swami, T.Swami and Narasingha Maharaj so I find it hard to believe you just stumbled upon this site.

 

Even though you say the people I mentioned don't like each other it is a fact that I get on very well with them all, save and except Puru das Prabhu. At the same time I'm very certain that Puru das is sincerely following his Gurudev and Sri Gauranga.

 

Also, I'm still uncertain what particular thing you are talking about, when you say I have said negative things about Ananta das Babaji.

 

In regard to googling to find references for Ananta das Babaji making statements about how the parampara of Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur is not genuine, I firmly believe Ananta das Babaji has said this to people. I went through all this stuff years ago. Five years ago. It logically follows that Ananta das Babaji would say our parampara is invalid, of course, since he believes in the siddha-pranali theory while Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur never told any of his disciples the siddha-pranali of Gaur-kisore-das-babaji.

 

 

Are you really saying that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura didn't practice siddha deha?!?!?! Have you actually read any of his books?

Uhhhhh....

 

It doesn't matter what Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura did or didn't practice. Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur, Srila Sridhar Maharaj and A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada didn't advocate that practice.

 

Have I read the books of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura?

 

Since you ask, I will say this. I consider the books of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura to be the most important books I have read. More important, even, than the books of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. And if anyone knows me at all then they will know that I am an exclusively dedicated [insignificant] disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj.

[Guest guest]

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

I am a disciple of Srila Jayapataka Swami. I took harinama in Atlanta in 1992 and then second in 1994 in Mayapura. I am very fond of my Gurudeva as well as Vaisnavas such as Bhakti Caru Swami, BB Govinda Maharaja and Sacinandana Swami, Indrajuymna Swami.

 

I met Ananta dasa Babaji Maharaja on a few visits to Radha Kunda after having accidently met up with Radha Kunda prabhu, a disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, who is still in ISKCON. I also met a few nice disciples of Srila Narayana Maharaja at his place.

 

I don't know why you find it so strange that I am new to this site but am aware of all of the issues between the various Gaudiya Math and ISKCON groups. I am new to this site but not the internet! I have also been told personally about these rifts upon visits to one of Srila Govinda Maharaja's/Sridhar Dev Goswami temples as well as many of the published writings of Narasingha Maharaj and Bhakti Sudhir Goswami.

 

I find it funny that you ascribe siddha deha as "siddha-pranali theory" while seemingly sidestepping the writings and practices of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Why is that? It would seem that the issue with siddha deha isn't if it is just a theory but that Srila Bhaktisddhanta Swami Prabhupada just didn't see it as being necessary. In that case there is n need to sidestep it. Obviously Srila Bhaktisddhanta Swami Prabhupada and his disciples were onto something.

 

You said in yoru note "in view of some things I know Ananta das Babaji has said about Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakura". What is that you know Ananta dasa Babaji, not one of his "followers", said? Again we all know that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada said some VERY heavy things about his godbrothers but you seem to have rectified that?

 

I am not saying that Ananta dasa Babaji does or doesn't believe in any of these things because I don't know. I brought all of this up because my few experiences with him were very nice and many devotees I respect think well of him, even if they don't agree with everything he believes, and thought it strange that you seem to react so to him. I thought Caitanya Nitai dasa's letter seemed reasonable and was curious of your response.

 

Puru prabhu - Thank you for the cut and paste of Srila Narayana Maharaja's talk. I guess my confusion is that "Babaji's" seem to be a rather eclectic group in terms of belief so most likely Maharaja doesn't equate such beliefs to all Babaji's as the name does simple refer to just an asrama. I'm not aware what of that applies to Ananta dasa Babaji. One of the brahmacari's I met at Radha Kunda said that Narayana Maharaja has some of Ananta dasa Babaji's books and that he reads them as does many of his disciples and followers even though they don't agree on some points. Is that not the case?

 

Your servant,

Radha Govinda dasa

[muralidhar_das 0]

Ok,

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev Goswami Maharaj says that Jayapataka Swami is his dear friend. All glory to the Vaishnavas!

[Guest guest]

 

Ok,

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev Goswami Maharaj says that Jayapataka Swami is his dear friend. All glory to the Vaishnavas!

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

I guess your reply would have been different if Govinda Maharaja wouldn't have mentioned that? Isn't that a problem with your heart? Attack unless you have been told not to? Give Vaisnavas and aspiring Vaisnavas the benefit of the doubt!

 

Your servant,

Radha Govinda dasa

[muralidhar_das 0]

Ananta das Babaji is the disciple of Kunjabihari das Babaji.

 

In the book Manjari-svarupa-nirupana written by Kunjabihari das Babaji he wrote:

 

In the Lord's abode, there are an unlimited number of forms, all suitable for rendering service to him. Every one of those forms is non-different from him, being expanded from his effulgence; each one is eternal, full of consciousness and bliss. They are the crowning, central jewels of the spiritual world - its very life. These unlimited spiritual bodies are the perfected forms of the liberated souls which are awarded to an individual, according to his taste, when he reaches the state of absolute liberation. This state is called attainment of the spiritual body. All these spiritual bodies are eternal for they exist even before the liberated souls enter them and will continue to exist ever afterward. However, prior to the entry of the liberated soul they are in an inactive state. As all of the unlimited souls are servants of the Lord, each one of them has a spiritual body in the Lord's abode just suitable for rendering service to the Lord. When an individual becomes qualified for direct service to the Lord by the grace of the Goddess of Devotion, then the Supreme Lord awards him that spiritual body.

-Translation by Madhavananda das.

 

According to this school of belief, a devotee must be “awarded” or “given” a spiritual body (siddha-deha) by their guru so they can practice the meditation that they are assisting Sri Radha in the divine pastimes of the spiritual world.

 

However in the Vedanta Sutra (4.4.1) and in Sri Sanatana Goswami's book Brhadbagavatamrtam (2.2) it is stated that a soul never gets given a spiritual body at any time. The spiritual body is an eternal and inseparable facet of the individual soul, the jiva-atma.

 

Followers of the siddha-pranali doctrine assert that a devotee needs to be given knowledge about their siddha form by their guru before they can engage in the practices of raganuga bhakti. New initiates are given a manjari name and are told about their svarupa-siddha (spiritual body) by Ananta dasa babaji, so that these disciples can engage in the practices of raganuga bhakti. It is asserted that if you do not know about your siddha-deha then you cannot practice raganuga bhakti. And of course since Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura did not advocate this type of sadhana it is supposed that Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura's devotees are not following the authentic tradition of raganuga bhakti.

 

The proper way of advancement in the path of raganuga bhakti is

described in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.291, where Srila Rupa

Goswami states:

tatra adhikari:

ragatmikaika-nistha ye vraja-vasi-janadayah

tesam bhavaptaye lubdho bhaved atradhikaravan

Those eligible for Raganuga Bhakti:

Those who have the feeling: “I want feelings of attraction for

Krishna like Ragatmikaikanistha, the feelings felt by the

Vrajabasis, the eternal residents of Vraja” – they are eligible to

engage in Raganuga Bhakti.

 

Thus, a devotee need only have an intense attraction to the type of devotion that is practiced by the Vrajabasis and one need not know about ekadasa-bhava in order to engage in raganuga bhakti.

 

In this connection there is a very beautiful verse and purport by Srila Prabhupada in the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.9.3

 

kṣaumaḿ vāsaḥ pṛthu-kaṭi-taṭe bibhratī sūtra-naddhaḿ

putra-sneha-snuta-kuca-yugaḿ jāta-kampaḿ ca subhrūḥ

rajjv-ākarṣa-śrama-bhuja-calat-kańkaṇau kuṇḍale ca

svinnaḿ vaktraḿ kabara-vigalan-mālatī nirmamantha

TRANSLATION

 

Dressed in a saffron-yellow sari, with a belt tied about her full hips, mother Yaśodā pulled on the churning rope, laboring considerably, her bangles and earrings moving and vibrating and her whole body shaking. Because of her intense love for her child, her breasts were wet with milk. Her face, with its very beautiful eyebrows, was wet with perspiration, and mālatī flowers were falling from her hair.

 

PURPORT

 

Anyone who desires to be Kṛṣṇa conscious in motherly affection or parental affection should contemplate the bodily features of mother Yaśodā. It is not that one should desire to become like Yaśodā, for this is Māyāvāda. Either in parental affection or conjugal love, friendship or servitorship — in any way — we must follow in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, not try to become like them. Therefore this description is provided here. Advanced devotees must cherish this description, always thinking of mother Yaśodā's features — how she was dressed, how she was working and perspiring, how beautifully the flowers were arranged in her hair, and so on. One should take advantage of the full description provided here by thinking of mother Yaśodā in maternal affection for Kṛṣṇa.

 

Be this as it may, there are numerous examples in the history of our Gaudiya Sampradaya where devotees have realized their svarupa-siddhi (spiritual form) simply through executing devotional service with faith and love under the guidance of a genuine Guru. Nobody needs to be told what their svarupa-siddhi is. When the time is ripe we will automatically realize it. Examples from history I will allude to are Syamananda Prabhu (who was initiated by a guru in sakhy-rasa, Hridaya-Chaitanya Goswami, but who later realized his own form as a manjari), Madhusudana das babaji and the sages who saw Ramachandra in the forest and desired to be born as gopis in their next life.

 

These are very high topics to discuss and in fact they should not be discussed in a casual way on the internet. Radha Govinda dasa if you really are a disciple of Sripad Jayapataka Maharaj then why not ask your Guru about this? It would be more appropriate for you to ask him than to hear me making statements about this topic.

[muralidhar_das 0]

 

Isn't that a problem with your heart? Attack unless you have been told not to?

 

Whatever...

[muralidhar_das 0]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 1.6.28

prayujyamane mayi tam

suddham bhagavatim tanum

arabdha-karma-nirvano

nyapatat panca-bhautikah

 

SYNONYMS

 

prayujyamane -- having been awarded; mayi -- on me; tam -- that; suddham -- transcendental; bhagavatim -- fit for associating with the Personality of Godhead; tanum -- body; arabdha -- acquired; karma -- fruitive work; nirvanah -- prohibitive; nyapatat -- quit; panca-bhautikah -- body made of five material elements.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Having been awarded a transcendental body befitting an associate of the Personality of Godhead, I quit the body made of five material elements, and thus all acquired fruitive results of work [karma] stopped.

 

PURPORT

Informed by the Personality of Godhead that he would be awarded a transcendental body befitting the Lord's association, Narada got his spiritual body as soon as he quitted his material body. This transcendental body is free from material affinity and invested with three primary transcendental qualities, namely eternity, freedom from material modes, and freedom from reactions of fruitive activities. The material body is always afflicted with the lack of these three qualities. A devotee's body becomes at once surcharged with the transcendental qualities as soon as he is engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. It acts like the magnetic influence of a touchstone upon iron. The influence of transcendental devotional service is like that. Therefore change of the body means stoppage of the reaction of three qualitative modes of material nature upon the pure devotee. There are many instances of this in the revealed scriptures. Dhruva Maharaja and Prahlada Maharaja and many other devotees were able to see the Personality of Godhead face to face apparently in the same body. This means that the quality of a devotee's body changes from material to transcendence. That is the opinion of the authorized Gosvamis via the authentic scriptures. In the Brahma-samhita it is said that beginning from the indra-gopa germ up to the great Indra, King of heaven, all living beings are subjected to the law of karma and are bound to suffer and enjoy the fruitive results of their own work. Only the devotee is exempt from such reactions, by the causeless mercy of the supreme authority, the Personality of Godhead.

[muralidhar_das 0]

Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.295

 

seva sadhaka rupena siddha rupena catra hi |

tad bhava lipsuna karya vraja lokanusratah ||

 

Translation: Following after the inhabitants of Vraja, one should perform service in one's physical body and in one's siddha body, with a desire for a particular bhava.

 

Jiva Goswami's Commentary

 

Sadhaka-rupa refers to the physical body of the practitioner of sadhana bhakti. Siddha rupa refers to the body which is suitable for one's desired service, and which has been developed by internal meditation.

 

--------------------------

 

NOTE: The siddha rupa arises from within the consciousness of the sadhana-bhakta. When a bhakta has a pure desire to offer a flower with a pure, beautiful child's hand which is like the hand of the Vrajabasi group leader that one is following (Rupa Manjari etc), then the consciousness of having a pure spiritual hand will emerge from within one's consciousness, naturally. In this way, the whole of the siddha rupa will become manifest through the power of pure devotion manifesting through the grace of Guru and Sri Radha Govinda in the pure consciousness of a bhakta.

[suchandra 1]

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

I am a disciple of Srila Jayapataka Swami. I took harinama in Atlanta in 1992 and then second in 1994 in Mayapura. I am very fond of my Gurudeva as well as Vaisnavas such as Bhakti Caru Swami, BB Govinda Maharaja and Sacinandana Swami, Indrajuymna Swami.

 

I met Ananta dasa Babaji Maharaja on a few visits to Radha Kunda after having accidently met up with Radha Kunda prabhu, a disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, who is still in ISKCON. I also met a few nice disciples of Srila Narayana Maharaja at his place.

 

I don't know why you find it so strange that I am new to this site but am aware of all of the issues between the various Gaudiya Math and ISKCON groups. I am new to this site but not the internet! I have also been told personally about these rifts upon visits to one of Srila Govinda Maharaja's/Sridhar Dev Goswami temples as well as many of the published writings of Narasingha Maharaj and Bhakti Sudhir Goswami.

 

I find it funny that you ascribe siddha deha as "siddha-pranali theory" while seemingly sidestepping the writings and practices of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Why is that? It would seem that the issue with siddha deha isn't if it is just a theory but that Srila Bhaktisddhanta Swami Prabhupada just didn't see it as being necessary. In that case there is n need to sidestep it. Obviously Srila Bhaktisddhanta Swami Prabhupada and his disciples were onto something.

 

You said in yoru note "in view of some things I know Ananta das Babaji has said about Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakura". What is that you know Ananta dasa Babaji, not one of his "followers", said? Again we all know that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada said some VERY heavy things about his godbrothers but you seem to have rectified that?

 

I am not saying that Ananta dasa Babaji does or doesn't believe in any of these things because I don't know. I brought all of this up because my few experiences with him were very nice and many devotees I respect think well of him, even if they don't agree with everything he believes, and thought it strange that you seem to react so to him. I thought Caitanya Nitai dasa's letter seemed reasonable and was curious of your response.

 

Puru prabhu - Thank you for the cut and paste of Srila Narayana Maharaja's talk. I guess my confusion is that "Babaji's" seem to be a rather eclectic group in terms of belief so most likely Maharaja doesn't equate such beliefs to all Babaji's as the name does simple refer to just an asrama. I'm not aware what of that applies to Ananta dasa Babaji. One of the brahmacari's I met at Radha Kunda said that Narayana Maharaja has some of Ananta dasa Babaji's books and that he reads them as does many of his disciples and followers even though they don't agree on some points. Is that not the case?

 

Your servant,

Radha Govinda dasa

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

Since Ananta dasa Babaji is a diksa-guru just like HH Jayapataka Swami and you say that you're a disciple of HH Jayapataka Swami, did HH Jayapataka Swami tell you to approach Ananta dasa Babaji? Or do you consider Ananta dasa Babaji's association as source of inspiring sadhu-sanga? What exactly did Ananta dasa Babaji tell you that make you say, "..my experiences with him were very nice" - could you please post all the details what he said?

 

Your servant,

Suchandra dasa

[Guest guest]

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

Since Ananta dasa Babaji is a diksa-guru just like HH Jayapataka Swami and you say that you're a disciple of HH Jayapataka Swami, did HH Jayapataka Swami tell you to approach Ananta dasa Babaji? Or do you consider Ananta dasa Babaji's association as source of inspiring sadhu-sanga? What exactly did Ananta dasa Babaji tell you that make you say, "..my experiences with him were very nice" - could you please post all the details what he said?

 

Your servant,

Suchandra dasa

Dear Suchandra prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

I met Ananta dasa Babaji on two different occasions on parikramas around Govardhana and Radha Kunda. Neither trip was specifically planned to meet him nor were any meetings long. In both cases Ananta dasa Babaji was sitting outside in his courtyard, on time simpli sitting and another time writing, when I arrived. The first time I saw him was after I had bumped into a nice bramhacari disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Radha Kunda dasa, who took me on the entire Radha Kunda parikrama which included Ananta dasa Babaji's place. At the time I remarked that it seemed by the heavy flow of people that his place was a part of the parikrama path and was told that as Mahant it generally is. Vasianavas came, offered respects and continued on the path.

 

As far as what he said he simply asked who I didn't take notes and the exchanges were simple. He asked who I was, where I was from, who my Gurudeva was and what was I doing at Radha Kunda. His accent was thick so someone was helping me understand. When I told him who my Gurudeva was he said that he did not know him but that I should further develop my devtion to my revered Gurudeva and be an exemplary Vaisnava by always chanting mahamantra and serving him. He also said that I should do parikrama as often as possible and to take in the mood of seva that I encounter. At the time there as prasadam and he offered that the few of us stay and honor it which we did. Everyone was very sweet. The second time I met him he remembered me and asked of my parikramas and overall stay. I told him that next time I would like to stay closer to Govardhana or maybe somehow at Srila Bhaktisvarupa Damodaras temple at Radha Kunda so I could do more parikrama of Govardhana. He smiled and said that if I pray to my Gurudeva and Radha that it was very possible. With that I bumped into and met several ISKCON and Gaudiya Matha devotees who all said the same things about Ananta dsa Babai Maharaja. They remarked that he was certainly an extremely advanced Vaisnava, bhajanidhi and merciful Vaisnava. They also said that as Mahant he has done a lot to address issues surrounding those dressed as Babaji whose moral character is not good.

 

As far as asking my Gurudeva if it was ok to meet Ananta dasa Babaji I didn't ask him as I didn't know I would meet him! On parikrama you have the opportunity to meet hundreds of Vaisnavas many of whom are diksa Guru's, both in ISKCON, Gaudiya Matha and outside, so how could you possibly do so? If I would desire to hear from Ananta dasa Babaji, to read his books or correspond with him I would definitely ask my Gurudeva but like I said above I dont want to follow him, be taught by him or anything like that.

 

Here is one thing that struck me: When I visit an ISKCON or Gaudiya Matha temple, attend a festival in either India or the US, I meet thousands of sincere Vaisnavas. A common thing is that when you are asked or you ask someone who their Gurudeva is there is a common phenomenon: A. If it is I am who is asked I get a little pit in my stomach, take a deep breathe and prepare to have someone be rude, insulting, indifferent or, hopefully, nice. B. When it is someone else who is asked you can see them going through the same mental and emotional preparation. I went through it last night when Muralidhar prabhu asked me! How sad is that? Doesn't that speak to our own harshness when dealing with each other. The funny part is we are all a part of the same family (Bhaktisiddhanta's family)! So it struck me that when I met Ananta dasa Babaji that his reply to that same question was not indifferent but encouraging and sincere. He doesn't know my Gurudeva and wouldn't agree with him on some philosophical matters yet he encouraged my faith and service to him. If you are not a disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami you will rarely, if ever get that type of response in ISKCON. If you aren't a disciple of Srila Narayana Maharaja his disciples certainly won't encourage you so nicely (yet part of me see's why as they are treated so rudely by ISKCON), I would run rather than share such with Srila Narasingha Maharaj because he doesn't seem to like many nd if he doesn't like you he canbe quite rude. He embraced Srila Narayana Maharaja on his first tour of the US and now he speaks venomously about him!

 

That was at the heart of my original note to Muralidhar prabhu. I am still after all these years astounded on how we treat other Vaisnavas and aspiring Vaisnavas. There is so much venom, hatred and ill will. Is this what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wanted from us as his representatives, grand disciples and grand grand disciples? Is this how he anted us to talk and treat others outside his family? I still cringe when I read the compilations of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami's books were they highlight the way he talks about his godbrothers! Is that what he wanted us to focus on? Did he want us to take his off the cuff feelings about his godbrothers as a weapon against them and their disciples? Or were they a byproduct of time, place and circumstance and meant to be for that moment only? A thing between godbrothers and not to be used against others in the future? If the tree is judged by the sweetness of the tree are we not all in a lot of trouble? Where is our sweetness when dealing with one another?

 

I am at a crossroads in my life. One day my Gurudeva will be gone and I fear for what that means. Most will not encourage my faith and devotion to him rather they will push me to take shelter in another Guru at the expense of my Guru and not as a compliment because rarely do we ever see another as fit, worthy and that is devastating.

 

Your servant,

Radha Govinda dasa

[suchandra 1]

There is so much venom, hatred and ill will. Is this what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wanted from us as his representatives, grand disciples and grand grand disciples? Is this how he anted us to talk and treat others outside his family?

Hari bol Radha Govinda dasa, yes, your observation is surely something many devotees of our family would agree with. What should make us ask what could be the reason and how to change it? Venom, hatred and ill will - let's see it from a different angle, that devotees dont actually have these qualities within but express them as some kind of defense mechanism of not getting hurt. Why worry of getting hurt if we are one family? Here may be lies the crux, are we really one family? Seems like there's a problem to answer this question with a clear yes, but obviously as you mention many seem to have this attitude and see it necessary of keeping other family members with some shield at distance. It surely could help if we know a) that this shield is there and b) why it is used and advance to the next step to create enough confidence towards other devotees from other gurus so they might put this defense mechanism out of habit of "hatred, venom and ill will" away and display the qualities of purified spirit souls on the path back to home back to Godhead where we will be really one family.

[Beggar 0]

From a neutral viewpoint I would have to say that part of the problem is that most camps upon reasoning with would be willing to suspend the "defense mechanism out of habit of "hatred, venom and ill will"." Unfortunately though, they inevitibly will reserve the right to launch an attack of "hatred, venom and ill will" at at least on enemy camp by which they either hold a long standing grudge or truly see as a threat. In other words they will agree in principle, but since it seems to part of a recent tradition it continues. Then the logic is that if I am really a disciple of so and so then I must uphold this stance, otherwise I am disloyal. It all seems so artificial and out of step with the present times and the world that we really live in, with instant electronic communication, the internet etc. But the threat of being labeled disloyal is very strong and can be used by competitors to undermine one's position in their sanga and conversely a strong show of loyalty can enhance one's position or pratistha. Thus internal math politics begins to strongly influence how we interact with other groups. The same dynamic occurs in the sphere of international politics which is why countries will go into a war that nobody really wants. How tragic the human condition, yet we all joined the Krsna Consciousness Movement looking for an alternative.

[Guest guest]

Dear Radha Govinda dasa,

 

You should not fear when your Guru Maharaja is no longer physically present to guide you. Of course there will be many opinions and people saying so many things - that is history and it will definitely repeat itself. Your task is to work on being a saragrahi vaishnava and try to develop your own commitment and faith. Your sincerity is all you can count on, and if you are sincere, good guidance is sure to come to you.

 

Taking siksha from advanced vaishnavas is part of our tradition - we should all pray for the good fortune of good company and the mercy of receiving the blessings of vaishnavas in the form of their instructions.

 

You make good points about Vaishnava ettiquete and I believe we should all step back, breathe deep, and honor devotion to Krsna wherever we find it. Muralidhara dasa has good reason to 'keep his distance' and we all may find certain vaishnava sangas to be detrimental to our own personal progress for a variety of reasons - but we should give all honor to all vaishnava nonetheless and that is a key point.

[Beggar 0]

Earlier I posted an excerpt from a Vyasa Puja offering where one leading GBC Guru blamed Srila Sridhar Maharaja for the Zonal Acarya system. I did not post this to attack the faith of Radha Govinda Prabhu in his diksa guru but rather to point out some inconsistancies that I see in the position of certain devotees. In fact as I mentioned in a subsequent post, all the camps seem to be taking apparently duplicious positions in relationship with camps that they have disagreements with. It took some percolating and thought yet I never would have written that if Radha Govinda wouldn't have responded in his way. Sometimes side discussions appear to have the potential to drag an entire thread off point. But sometimes these side discussions are necessary to open the discussions to a deeper and honest level. Thesis, antithesis and synthesis will be there, and consequently there will be some friction; But a pearl is created out of friction. Sometimes the Administrators are too quick to pull the deleting trigger.

[muralidhar_das 0]

I see no point in any of this. Bye.