When is someone considdered to be a Gaudiya Vaishava?

[Guest guest]

Greetings to all who is reading this;

 

vancha-kalpatarubhyas ca

kripa-sindhubhya eva ca

patitanam pavanebhyo

vaishnavebhyo namo namah.

 

There is something bothering me for a while. and by posting this here I hope for some answers on this issue (preferable with scriptural reference).

 

When is someone considdered to be a Gaudiya Vaishava?

 

Does he needs to worship Lord Krishna as supreme personallity, God?

 

Does he needs to be initiated by a Guru which is initiated within a certain disciplic succesion?

 

Does he needs to follow the path of Bhakti Yoga according to the instructions of the Bhagavad Gita and other scriptures?

 

If a person cannot be considdered a Vaishnava unless he is initiated within a tradition by a spiritual master but he still worships Krishna as highest God, and tries to follow the path of Bhakti Yoga as stated within the scriptures (with the exception of instructions concerning with taking Diksha) How should he refer to himself if he is asked about what 'religion' he is following?

 

Can a Smarta who is worshipping Krishna as his ishta-devata refer to himself as a Gaudiya Vaishnava?

 

Can a person who studies the scriptures such as Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam, alongside with books written by Gaudiya Vaishava Guru's (Such as A.C Bhakti Vedanta, and Narayana Maharaja), who is practising these teachings and instructions, and believe in their value and truth, can such a person be considdered a Gaudiya Vaishnava even if he doesn't want to engage in one particular branch (or sect) but rather wants to accept all the teachings and instructions from any bonifide spiritual masters within the tradition?

 

Can a person who does accept all common teachings within Gaudiya Vaishnavism (except for that Lord Caitanya is the incarnation of Lord Krishna), practise these teachings, without taking shelter of a spiritual master, can such a person be considdered a Gaudiya Vaishnava?

 

And if none of the above is not considdered to be a Gaudiya Vaishnava, by other devotees from within the tradition, how should he refer to himself if he only accepts Krishna as the Supreme Person?

 

I figure that he should call himself a Hindu (even if this would be a clearer description towards others not being familiar with Gaudiya principles) At leas not if he is practising another religion alongside with the practice of Bhakti Yoga.

 

Please enlighten me with your knowledge on this matter since I am unquallified and un-knowing, and since I only have seen a glimpse of Truth, I cannot be sure that is isn't an illusion, so please kindly provide me with that truth I am currently not able to see, because my eyes are blind and my brain is sleeping.

 

~ not worthy to be your servant, but I will try.

 

With all sincerity,

 

Darsha

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

Best thing is you become a Gaudiya Vaisnava yourself, and concern yourself less with who has what label. Most important thing for us all is to discriminate who we should associate with. Who is sadhu?

Regarding guru, let Sri Krsna and Srila Prabhupada speak for themselves.

Pleasure Secrets Revealed in the Bhagavad Gita<center>Chapter 4. Transcendental Knowledge</center>

 

TEXT 34

 

 

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

tat--that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi--try to understand; pranipatena--by approaching a spiritual master; pariprasnena--by submissive inquiries; sevaya--by the rendering of service; upadeksyanti--initiate; te--unto you; jnanam--knowledge; jnaninah--the self-realized; tattva--truth; darsinah--the seers.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.

 

PURPORT

 

The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself.No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhagavatam says: dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam--the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect.

http://www.asitis.com/4/34.html

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

(II) SADHU SANGA: Company of Sadhus or Saints. This means an individuals eager desire to be in the company of a Sadhu in order to learn the methods of spiritual practices for God realization alone and for no other purpose. But who is a Sadhu?

According to Bhagavatam, Canto XI, Chap. 11, Slokas 29 to 31, the following are the qualities of a genuine Sadhu or Saint: A Sadhu is kind; he cherishes animosity toward none; he smilingly endures even the bitterest miseries; he loves Truth as the vein-blood of his life; he never allows any evil thought to pollute his mind; he looks upon all with equal love and compassion; he does not entertain any kind of mundane desires to darken his mental quantum; he is self-controlled, amiable and pure in character; he remains farthest from any attempt to accumulate for his future subsistence and does not beg anything form anybody; he is abstentious and peaceful; he is steady in his mind; he depends absolutely on the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna, and remains in constant remembrance of the Lord; he is patient, solemn, magnanimous and undisturbed even by utmost provocations and turmoils; he has control over hunger, thirst, lamentations ,infatuation, birth and death; he does never aspire after respect for himself, but is always respectful to others; he is friendly to all; his heart is full of compassion for others; he is fully conversant with the real nature of God; and he is erudite. To keep company with such a one in person, thought and through discussions is Sadhu-sanga.

 

http://bvml.org/SHBM/brs.htm

[theist 1]

 

Does he needs to be initiated by a Guru which is initiated within a certain disciplic succesion?

 

Does he needs to follow the path of Bhakti Yoga according to the instructions of the Bhagavad Gita and other scriptures?

 

If a person cannot be considdered a Vaishnava unless he is initiated within a tradition by a spiritual master but he still worships Krishna as highest God, and tries to follow the path of Bhakti Yoga as stated within the scriptures (with the exception of instructions concerning with taking Diksha) How should he refer to himself if he is asked about what 'religion' he is following?

 

"Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. The conclusions which we have tried to explain in our Bhagavad-gita As It Is is the same as those conclusions of Arjuna. Arjuna accepted Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we also accept the same truth under the disciplic succession of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. This is an axiomatic truth." -Letter to Kirtananda

 

 

Can a person who does accept all common teachings within Gaudiya Vaishnavism (except for that Lord Caitanya is the incarnation of Lord Krishna), practise these teachings, without taking shelter of a spiritual master, can such a person be considdered a Gaudiya Vaishnava?

 

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport

 

Lord Caitanya would not listen to anyone who told Him He was the Supreme Personality Krsna. He was in the mood of a devotee. So you needn't even confront the issue at this time. Just accept Him as the universal Guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

[Guest guest]

Best thing is you become a Gaudiya Vaisnava yourself,

 

<!end Quote>

 

Who says I'm not? I even havn't properly introduced myself and you think you can judge on my behalf. Not to offend sir, but this post doesn't concern with my own personal mental speculations or however you may call them. I'm not here to bash anyone, including your spiritual master or movement's Acharya, or whoever, and I'm not asking questions that concerns me in personal, so please be kind and don't bash or personal attack me.

 

<!Quote Post 2: Theist>

 

The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself.

 

</END Quote>

 

<!quote From krishna [dot] com /phplive/ admin/ traffic/ knowledge_searchm.php?l=admin&x=1&action=expand_question&questid=171&deptid=1&catid=2&keyword=spiritual+master

 

Question

 

Can I attain spiritua perfection without a spiritual master?

 

Answer

 

It is possible to attain liberation and the spiritual kingdom without a spiritual master, but that is not the recommended procedure. [....]

 

Lord Krishna advises to accept a spiritual master in Bhagavad-gita 4.34. So although you may achieve success by practicing bhakti without a spiritual master, because Krishna is free to award bhakti to anyone, it is better to follow in the footsteps of the Lord and his devotees and accept a spiritual master.

 

<! End Quote>

 

<! Quote from post 2: Theist>

 

No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession

 

<!end quote>

 

So Lord Jesus and Lord Mohammed are NOT bona fide spiritual masters?

 

<!quote from krishna [dot] com /phplive/admin/traffic/knowledge_searchm.php?l=admin&x=1&action=expand_question&questid=36&deptid=1&catid=2&keyword=jesus

 

Question

 

What are your beliefs about Jesus Christ?

 

Answer

 

Jesus Christ is the son of God, and he sacrificed his life to spread the teachings of God. He is a powerful devotee of God and was an example of compassion, tolerance, and other qualities of a pure teacher. Those who sincerely follow his teachings will make spiritual progress. He taught the essence of Bhakti: to love God fully and to love others as His children.

 

<!end quote>

 

<! Quote from post 2: Theist>

 

No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders

 

<!end quote>

 

It seems to me that a person who studies the scriptures such as Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam, alongside with books written by Gaudiya Vaishava Guru's (Such as A.C Bhakti Vedanta, and Narayana Maharaja), who is practising these teachings and instructions, and believe in their value and truth, does not manufacture his own process.

 

Anyway, there are some different conceptions within Gaudiya vaishnavism about certain topics (such as the Jiva's and if they are fallen or not, and from where..) Also, worship in temples of the various brances are done different, and the same goes with offering food . (Some offer food to their spiritual master which transfers it to his... untill it reaches Krishna, while in other traditions food is directly offered to Krishna, and those are not considdered to be 'own precesses'? Only because they are all called Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

 

How do other branches of Gaudiya Vaishavism view the issue in my first post anyway? Please het me hear your opinion.

 

<! Quote from post 2: Theist>

 

the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life.

 

<! end quote

 

Someone who is following the principles of Bhakti Yoga, which includes the practice of mental speculation, cannot progress in spiritual life, except when he takes diksha? That contradicts what I quoted from about 'Can I attain spiritua perfection without a spiritual master?' from Krishna [dot] com

 

Anyway, there are more spiritual masters within Gaudiya Vaishnavis, I am wondering what they have to say (trough their literature) on this issue.

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

 

<QUOTE Theist 1: Post>

Best thing is you become a Gaudiya Vaisnava yourself,

 

<!end Quote>

Who says I'm not? I even havn't properly introduced myself and you think you can judge on my behalf. Not to offend sir, but this post doesn't concern with my own personal mental speculations or however you may call them. I'm not here to bash anyone, including your spiritual master or movement's Acharya, or whoever, and I'm not asking questions that concerns me in personal, so please be kind and don't bash or personal attack me.

 

 

Not me. No judgement intended. I did not mean to suggest that you are not a Gaudiya Vaisnava. For myself I don't make any such claim. To be a real Vaisnava is a very rare commodity. We may be aspiring to become a Vaisnava one day, but until our anarthas are cleared away, and until we have genuine adhikara it seems to me more prudent not to claim such status. I am an apsiring diksa disciple of His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and the aspiriing siksa follower of several other Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas. I'd be happy to know who you accept as your guru maharaja for guidance in the execution of bhakti. But as you wish.

 

Sorry you took insult from a philosophical point. That point, which perhaps can be stated more succinctly is that it is more important to be introspective than concern ourselves with the "position" of others.

 

One other point made in Srila Prabhupada's purport, if you will allow me to observe it, is that inquiry concnerning spiritual life should be relevent and submissive. If you already understand the answers to your questions, then did you post them so you could answer them yourself on line, or to get the perspective of other sadhakas?

[mahak 0]

Haribol. This phrase is essential, and it leaves no room for neither blind faith nor rejection, both detrimental to spiritual growth.

 

We are required to ask questions to mmake determination if we can surrender to one of spiritual advancement. To surrender without putting one to the test is fanaticism. To reject after hearing convincing arguemnent is faithlessness that cannot be overcome in any manner.

 

So, if one asks questions, yet has no intention in taking advice, then the asking of such questions is useless to all in the loop of conversation. Submissive inquiry means one is sincerely trying to make advancement in the field of interest. Asking is putting one to the test, submission is the satisfactory result of the test acknowledged.

 

I agree with Puru das in that it is not a program of an actual Gaudiya Vaisnava to declare that he is a gaudiya vaisnava. An actual gaudiya vaisnava completely feels unqualified to make such a claim. This is how my Spiritual Master, Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, behaved. He was of such pure gaudiya vaisnava character that he actually felt lessw advanced that even his own disciples. Lord Nityananda Prabhu sets this standard of humble behavior in that he would beg the karmi, with straw in the teeth, to please engage in samkirtana, and truely worshipped an individual who would take up even the rudimentary practice of sravanam, kirtanam, visnoih smaranam.

 

Also, I dont much care for the opinion of an anonymous guest who claim bad treatment because someone does not know ones actual position. The cure is in your hands, introduce yourself, and you dont have to face such speculation as to your position. I dont have such a problem, and am loved and hated simultaneously on this internet because of my ability to speak and have those who hear ACTUALLY know where I am coming from, because I have 10,000 pages of my opinions on the internet all with my name on them.

 

One last thing, if one expects only nice kind words, go elsewhere, because the gaudiya vaisnavas are not apt to give compliments to one who is on his death bed, suffering from all the maladies this world of death has to offer. The last thing a lost person needs is a pat on the back and a "good job" comment. (Thats what I like about our esteemed colleague, Puru das, who never compliments nonsense).

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

@ Puru Das, das anudas

 

[Q] I'd be happy to know who you accept as your guru maharaja for guidance in the execution of bhakti. But as you wish. [/Q]

 

I accept Lord Sri Krishna as Sat Guru. I accept Lord Sri Caitanya as Maha Guru. I can accept all Vaishnava as Siksha Guru, aswell as I value any seer of Truth, from whatever religion he may be as. I accept siksha from A.C Bhaktivedanta Svami, from Narayana Maharaja, and from others within their linage that lived after Lord Chaitanya. I do not aspire for Diksha initiation however due to health issues I feel I should not include here.

 

[Q] If you already understand the answers to your questions, then did you post them so you could answer them yourself on line, or to get the perspective of other sadhakas? [/Q]

 

As much as I don't like to speculate, and as I feel I cannot (yet) accept only one commentary of one person (not to offend) I was wondering about what other teachers of Gaudiya Traditions have to say on this issue. I know the views of A.C Bhaktivedanta Svami because the GBC kindly have published his works on the Internet for reference, But as I do not have much reference to teachings of other Vaishnava Acaryas I cannot verificate that the teachings of A.C Bhaktivedanta Svami really do present the general 'opinion' of clasical Gaudiya Tradition.

 

Again, I do not mean to offend anyone (Including A.C Bhaktivedanta Svami) Reasonn why I asked this is that I do not want to fall for speculation. Also, as I sometimes view on traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava Boards I often see that traditional (indian) Gaudiya Vaishnavas (who are not in ISKCON) often do not agree with some of the teachings of A.C Bhaktivedanta and sometimes say that some of his teachings contradicts original Gaudiya Traditions.

 

Therefore I was wondering when exactly one is to be considdered a Gaudiya Vaishnava since I understand that one should not incorrectly refer to him as a Christian unless he accepts the teachings of Lord Jesus, and that one should not be refering himself as being a Budhist if one does not accept the teachings of the Budha, thus it would be logical that one must have taken Diksha within the Tradition of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and accept all teachings and instructions in order to refer himself as a Gaudiya Vaishnava.

 

Still I have not find an answer to some of my questions in first post. such as:

 

Can a person who does accept all common teachings within Gaudiya Vaishnavism (except for that Lord Caitanya is the incarnation of Lord Krishna), practise these teachings, without taking shelter of a spiritual master, can such a person be considdered a Gaudiya Vaishnava?

 

Reason of this asking was:

 

How should one make clear to other what Truth he is beholding, if he is not a traditionalist but does accept all teachings.

 

For myself: I am nothing, nor can I refer to myself as being anything, and therefore I didn't felt the need to introduce myself. I simply do love Krishna, and worship him in my own humble way, thereby trying to follow instructions as strict as I am able to.

[bija 0]

Dear Darsha,

 

In my own search for truth I like to keep things simple. What I mean is I will try and take the essence from the various teachers and options available. Try to extract what is beneficial to developing devotion within.

 

Maybe I am a bit simple in that I do not know all the finer points of philosophical difference that separate all these great teachers. Like the one's you have mentioned (including the so-called traditional Gaudiya groups).

 

But I just keep it simple these days....I try and take the nectar and relish that, wherever it may be found. Otherwise if I don't do this I find I just become confused and full of argumentative doubts in my own mind, and make no real progress in the simple devotional act (of the heart).

 

Basically I find...'simple is beneficial'...'complex is confusing'. Maybe I am naieve...but that is the way I like to approach things in my spiritual life now. The other process (argumentation) did not work for me...did not make me happy...and did not nurture 'simple devotion'.

 

Just some personal thoughts.

 

(also this approach is kinda fun...I can seek nectar anywhere and do not have to limit myself as to where I find it) Ofcourse others may disagree with this approach....but I do not live near any Gaudiya Vaisnava institutions or groups...so this is the approach I have taken. Ofcourse I will use my power of discernment to not take everything on board...to take everything on board would be foolish. Basically I follow the mood of my main Gurumaharaja, and glean nectar from other sources I feel attraction to. Gurumaharaja allows me this freedom, and trusts my ability to use discernment, (if I have any confusions I will approach him for clarification). Ofcousre he is the center piece and focal point in the search for truth. I do not like complexity much these days...it just didn't work for me.

[bija 0]

Scriptural references:

 

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Sri Narada Muni has stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam (12.12.52):

 

"On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, and so on of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bring about a revolution in the impious lives of this worlds misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung, and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest." </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Srimad Bhagavatam 11.8.10: (translation by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura) "As a bee takes honey from many different flowers, so a wise man takes the truth from many different great and small books"</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 11.8.10 Srila Prabhupada purport:

 

In human society the original knowledge is called Veda, and the essential part of veda, or knowledge, is Krsna consciousness. As stated in Bhagavad-gita (15.15), vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyah. From the honeybee, an intelligent human being should learn to take the essence, or nectar, of all knowledge. A honeybee does not waste its time trying to carry away an entire bush or garden, but rather takes the essential nectar. We may thus study the difference between the honeybee and the ass, who carries heavy loads. Education does not mean to become an intellectual ass carrying heavy loads of useless knowledge; rather, one should accept the essential knowledge that leads to an eternal life of bliss and understanding.

At the present time people generally have a sectarian concept of religion, and yet there is no scientific understanding of the Absolute Truth. Such complacent, dogmatic, sectarian religionists can certainly learn something from the example of the honeybee given in this verse.

 

[gHari 0]

http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/6/86/en

[Guest guest]

Srimad Bhagavatam 11.8.10: (translation by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura) "As a bee takes honey from many different flowers, so a wise man takes the truth from many different great and small books"

 

Thanks for this quote. I figure it might be my favorite of all scriptural verses. .

 

[Q] But I just keep it simple these days....I try and take the nectar and relish that, wherever it may be found. Otherwise if I don't do this I find I just become confused and full of argumentative doubts in my own mind, and make no real progress in the simple devotional act (of the heart). [/q>

 

You are really enlightening! I pray that Krishna may bless you and help you to advance.

 

(also this approach is kinda fun...I can seek nectar anywhere and do not have to limit myself as to where I find it) Ofcourse others may disagree with this approach....but I do not live near any Gaudiya Vaisnava institutions or groups...so this is the approach I have taken. Ofcourse I will use my power of discernment to not take everything on board...to take everything on board would be foolish. Basically I follow the mood of my main Gurumaharaja, and glean nectar from other sources I feel attraction to. Gurumaharaja allows me this freedom, and trusts my ability to use discernment, (if I have any confusions I will approach him for clarification). Ofcousre he is the center piece and focal point in the search for truth. I do not like complexity much these days...it just didn't work for me.

 

May I kindly inquire who is your Guru Maharaja? If he really allows you such freedom. I'm eager to know but you don't have to answer this.

[bija 0]

 

You are really enlightening! I pray that Krishna may bless you and help you to advance. quote by darshan

Enlightening...not really (pretty basic more or less).

 

Something I learnt about spiritual life some time ago has stuck with me. I realized spiritual life should be a nice experience. Some time ago I did not find peace in my spirtual life (but instead felt quite stressed with it all). So I came to the conclusion that something was not right?

 

I realized I was making everything complex in my own mind and not feeling happiness because of that. So simplicity and getting back to basics has helped greatly in finding that peace.

 

 

May I kindly inquire who is your Guru Maharaja? If he really allows you such freedom. I'm eager to know but you don't have to answer this. quote by darshan

This sense of freedom is just my own personal encounter with my spiritual teacher. I would presume each of his disciples would also have their own personal encounters which may vary greatly to mine. So I would prefer to not go any further than that.

[bija 0]

http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/6/86/en quote by gHari

A very nice and essential quote gHari (thanks).

[Guest guest]

[q] I realized I was making everything complex in my own mind and not feeling happiness because of that. So simplicity and getting back to basics has helped greatly in finding that peace. [/Q]

 

I also value some kind of simplicity, but often when I associate with Devotees i feelt overwhelmed with all kinds of scriptural facts that makes things complex and makes the mind wandering from Bhakti

[bija 0]

 

I also value some kind of simplicity, but often when I associate with Devotees i feelt overwhelmed with all kinds of scriptural facts that makes things complex and makes the mind wandering from Bhakti quote by darshan

Yes...and internet forums are a sure place to find such complexity (and possible confusion).

 

But personally I like the diversity found at this forum (generally devotees have such nice things to share).

 

I have found that as internal faith grows steadier all the differing perspectives (online) are not causes for confusion and complexity. But may even be an oppurtunity to broaden perspective. Ofcourse discernment is important.

 

So due to the tendency of confusion (complexities) and chance of distraction in achieving the goal, I can really understand why some teachers advise their students to not look here and there. But instead instruct them to keep strictly to their instructions only. Wise really!

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree that the World Wide Web of Maya can cause downfall. But Maya is everywhere, can even be in Vaishnava temples. Sometimes I listen to BG classes and come to the conclusion that the speaker is showing the truth of the verse by refering to speculations based on his own experiences within the Material world.

 

Again, I wont blasphome these devotees, even if I do not agree with their idea of giving a lecture.

 

[q] So due to the tendency of confusion (complexities) and chance of distraction in achieving the goal, I can really understand why some teachers advise their students to not look here and there. But instead instruct them to keep strictly to their instructions only. Wise really! [/q]

 

Can a spiritual master instruct one to not visit a temple or to not associate with other devotees? even if it is said within scriptures that one should engage in these activities to advance in Bhakti?

[bija 0]

 

Can a spiritual master instruct one to not visit a temple or to not associate with other devotees? even if it is said within scriptures that one should engage in these activities to advance in Bhakti? quote by darshan

I don't know.

 

But I would say this...the spiritual master/disciple relationship is a personal and unique encounter. Maybe the advanced spiritual master is not confined by all of the rules and regulations of scripture. Maybe he takes individual and practical instruction into consideration. Ofcourse some will debate this.

[bija 0]

 

Caitanya Caritamrta adi lila 7:31-32 (Srila Prabhupada)

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

Seeing that the Māyāvādīs and others were fleeing, Lord Caitanya thought, "I wanted everyone to be immersed in this inundation of love of Godhead, but some of them have escaped. Therefore I shall devise a trick to drown them also."

PURPORT

Here is an important point. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted to invent a way to capture the Māyāvādīs and others who did not take interest in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This is the symptom of an ācārya. An ācārya who comes for the service of the Lord cannot be expected to conform to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Kṛṣṇa consciousness may be spread. Sometimes jealous persons criticize the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement because it engages equally both boys and girls in distributing love of Godhead. Not knowing that boys and girls in countries like Europe and America mix very freely, these fools and rascals criticize the boys and girls in Kṛṣṇa consciousness for intermingling. But these rascals should consider that one cannot suddenly change a community's social customs. However, since both the boys and the girls are being trained to become preachers, those girls are not ordinary girls but are as good as their brothers who are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore, to engage both boys and girls in fully transcendental activities is a policy intended to spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. These jealous fools who criticize the intermingling of boys and girls will simply have to be satisfied with their own foolishness because they cannot think of how to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness by adopting ways and means that are favorable for this purpose. Their stereotyped methods will never help spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore, what we are doing is perfect by the grace of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, for it is He who proposed to invent a way to capture those who strayed from Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.5.16 (Srila Prabhupada)

 

TRANSLATION

The Supreme Lord is unlimited. Only a very expert personality, retired from the activities of material happiness, deserves to understand this knowledge of spiritual values. Therefore those who are not so well situated, due to material attachment, should be shown the ways of transcendental realization, by Your Goodness, through descriptions of the transcendental activities of the Supreme Lord.

PURPORT

Theological science is a difficult subject, especially when it deals with the transcendental nature of God. It is not a subject matter to be understood by persons who are too much attached to material activities. Only the very expert, who have almost retired from materialistic activities by culture of spiritual knowledge, can be admitted to the study of this great science. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly stated that out of many hundreds and thousands of men only one person deserves to enter into transcendental realization. And out of many thousands of such transcendentally realized persons, only a few can understand the theological science specifically dealing with God as a person. Śrī Vyāsadeva is therefore advised by Nārada to describe the science of God directly by relating His transcendental activities. Vyāsadeva is himself a personality expert in this science, and he is unattached to material enjoyment. Therefore he is the right person to describe it, and Śukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vyāsadeva, is the right person to receive it.

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, and therefore it can react on the laymen as medicinal doses. Because it contains the transcendental activities of the Lord, there is no difference between the Lord and the literature. The literature is the factual literary incarnation of the Lord. So the laymen can hear the narration of the activities of the Lord. Thereby they are able to associate with the Lord and thus gradually become purified from material diseases. The expert devotees also can discover novel ways and means to convert the nondevotees in terms of particular time and circumstance. Devotional service is dynamic activity, and the expert devotees can find out competent means to inject it into the dull brains of the materialistic population. Such transcendental activities of the devotees for the service of the Lord can bring a new order of life to the foolish society of materialistic men. Lord ŚrīCaitanya Mahāprabhu and His subsequent followers exhibited expert dexterity in this connection. By following the same method, one can bring the materialistic men of this age of quarrel into order for peaceful life and transcendental realization.

 

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

 

@ Puru Das, das anudas

 

[Q] I'd be happy to know who you accept as your guru maharaja for guidance in the execution of bhakti. But as you wish. [/Q]

 

I accept Lord Sri Krishna as Sat Guru. I accept Lord Sri Caitanya as Maha Guru. I can accept all Vaishnava as Siksha Guru, aswell as I value any seer of Truth, from whatever religion he may be as. I accept siksha from A.C Bhaktivedanta Svami, from Narayana Maharaja, and from others within their linage that lived after Lord Chaitanya. I do not aspire for Diksha initiation however due to health issues I feel I should not include here. .

All I can do is offer you this information.

The Absolute Necessity of Second Initiation

 

by Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

<st1:place><st1:city>Hilo</st1:city>, <st1:state>Hawaii</st1:state></st1:place>: <st1:date year="2003" day="13" month="1">January 13, 2003</st1:date>

 

[srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja spent the week of January 11-17 in <st1:place><st1:city>Hilo</st1:city>, <st1:state>Hawaii</st1:state></st1:place>, enlightening his audience of two hundred fifty on the topics of guru-tattva and the gradual development of devotion for Sri Krsna. Meanwhile, as sometimes occurs, certain individuals, in an attempt to disinterest others from attending Srila Narayana Maharaja's classes, were engaged in passing out copies of a paper. This time the paper was written on the subject of the relative necessity of harinama initiation (first initiation) and diksa (second initiation). The paper tried its level best to prove that Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja and Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja have a different view on the subject than Srila Narayana Maharaja. If this were true, it would place Srila Narayana Maharaja outside the disciplic line of his predecessor acaryas. When Srila Narayana Maharaja became aware of this attempt to show a difference between them, he gave the following class and clearly showed that the three above-mentioned acaryas are exactly in the same line. They are all saying, in fact, that the acceptance of the diksa mantras is essential.]

rest of article is here:

http://bvml.org/SBNM/tanosi.html

Health, good or bad, is not really an eternal consideration, and shouldn’t stop you from receiving the sampradaya mantras from a sad-guru.

 

 

@ [Q] If you already understand the answers to your questions, then did you post them so you could answer them yourself on line, or to get the perspective of other sadhakas? [/Q]

 

As much as I don't like to speculate, and as I feel I cannot (yet) accept only one commentary of one person (not to offend) I was wondering about what other teachers of Gaudiya Traditions have to say on this issue. I know the views of A.C Bhaktivedanta Svami because the GBC kindly have published his works on the Internet for reference, But as I do not have much reference to teachings of other Vaishnava Acaryas I cannot verificate that the teachings of A.C Bhaktivedanta Svami really do present the general 'opinion' of clasical Gaudiya Tradition. .

As far as I understand guru-tattva you will not find too much variation between acaryas on any matter of siddhanta or tattva. Here are some references from Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami to help you understand the principle of guru and tattva:

 

In the purport to Cc. Adi lila 7. 37, Srila Prabhupada writes:

 

“ Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was an ideal acarya. An acarya is an ideal teacher who knows the purpose of the revealed scriptures, behaves exactly according to their injunctions and teaches his students to adopt these principles also. As an ideal acarya, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu devised ways to capture all kinds of atheists and materialists. Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. Therefore, the method of one acarya may be different from that of another, but the ultimate goal is never neglected. Srila Rupa Gosvami recommends:

 

tasmat kenapy upayena

manah krsne nivesayet

sarve vidhi-nisedha syur

etayor eva kinkarah

 

An acarya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come to Krsna consciousness. First they should become Krsna conscious, and all the prescribed rules and regulations may later gradually be introduced. In our Krsna consciousness movement we follow this policy of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu...”

“...It is the concern of the acarya to show mercy to the fallen souls. In this connection, desa-kala-patra (the place, the time and the object) should be taken into consideration...”

Cc. Adi lila 7.37-38

 

Srila Prabhupada writes in the Nectar of Devotion:

 

 

“Srila Rupa Gosvami states that his elder brother (Sanatana Gosvami) has compiled Hari-bhakti-vilasa for the guidance of the Vaisnavas and therein has mentioned many rules and regulations to be followed by the Vaisnavas. Some of them are very important and prominent, and Srila Rupa Gosvami will now mention these very important items for our benefit. The purport of this statement is that Srila Rupa Gosvami proposes to mention only basic principles, not details. For example, a basic principle is that one has to accept a spiritual master. Exactly how one follows the instructions of his spiritual master is considered a detail. For example, if one is following the instruction of his spiritual master and that instruction is different from the instructions of another spiritual master, this is called detailed information. But the basic principle of acceptance of a spiritual master is good everywhere, although the details may be different. Srila Rupa Gosvami does not wish to enter into details here, but wants to place before us only the principles...”

 

Chapter Six

How to Discharge Devotional Service

 

“Although many different processes for developing love of Godhead have been explained so far, Srila Rupa Gosvami now gives us a general description of how one can best achieve such a high position. The beginning of ecstatic love of Godhead is basically faith. There are many societies and associations of pure devotees, and if someone with just a little faith begins to associate with such societies, his advancement to pure devotional service is rapid. The influence of a pure devotee is such that if someone comes to associate with him with a little faith, one gets the chance of hearing about the Lord from authoritative scriptures like Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. Thus, by the mercy of the Lord, who is situated in everyone's heart, one gradually develops his faith in the descriptions of such authoritative scriptures. This is the first stage of association with pure devotees. In the second stage, after one becomes a little advanced and mature, he automatically offers to follow the principles of devotional service under the guidance of the pure devotee and accepts him as the spiritual master. In the next stage, under the guidance of the spiritual master, the devotee executes regulative devotional service, and as a result of such activities, he becomes freed from all unwanted occupations. When he is freed from unwanted occupations, his faith becomes steadily fixed, and he develops a transcendental taste for devotional service, then attachment, then ecstasies, and in the last stage there is pure love of Godhead. These are the different stages of the development of pure love.”

 

Chapter Nineteen

Association with Pure Devotees

Devotional Service in Pure Love of God ere Here

Again, I do not mean to offend anyone (Including A.C Bhaktivedanta Svami) Reasonn why I asked this is that I do not want to fall for speculation. Also, as I sometimes view on traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava Boards I often see that traditional (indian) Gaudiya Vaishnavas (who are not in ISKCON) often do not agree with some of the teachings of A.C Bhaktivedanta and sometimes say that some of his teachings contradicts original Gaudiya Traditions. .

That is because these persons do not accept the guru parampara after Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, through Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and his disciples. They follow other babaji diksa lines that claim to be the “real” followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu,

Or the descendants of Advaita Acarya etc. You can read the first essay of this book for a

Deeper and more insightful clarification by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja:

Five Essential Essays - Prabandha Panchakam View

Download <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="Five Essential Essays - Prabandha Panchakam" style='width:72.75pt;height:112.5pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\PURUDA~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.jpg" o:href=" "/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->

This exceptional book is a compilation of five different essays which Srila Gurudeva has written over the past 20 years in defense of Gaudiya sampradaya tattva siddhanta. Each refutation is elaborately and conclusively proven with evidence from sastra.

Included in this edition are two lectures by Srila Gurudeva which glorify and follow the example of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada who boldly re-established the true conceptions of Sriman Mahaprabhu and the gosvamis, and began the preaching mission which is today bringing this pure bhakti tattva siddhanta to every country in the world.

 

 

Therefore I was wondering when exactly one is to be considdered a Gaudiya Vaishnava since I understand that one should not incorrectly refer to him as a Christian unless he accepts the teachings of Lord Jesus, and that one should not be refering himself as being a Budhist if one does not accept the teachings of the Budha, thus it would be logical that one must have taken Diksha within the Tradition of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and accept all teachings and instructions in order to refer himself as a Gaudiya Vaishnava.

 

Still I have not find an answer to some of my questions in first post. . . . .

One time someone mentioned something about Vaisnava aparadha to Srila Gourr Govinda Maharaja. His responce was “Who is a Vaisnava, baba?” I will look for the rest of his answer for you and post it if I find it.

Your servant,

Puru das, das anudas