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difference between harinama initiation and diksa (mantra) initiation

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Haribol! Please can someone explain to me what is the difference between harinama initiation and diksa (mantra) initiation? as I thought that they were the same?

 

I am chanting 16 rounds and I really want to recieve the pure Hare Krishna Maha mantra from a bona fide vaishnava. However, I've had lots of bad experiences and do not want any personal guru to always be expecting me to surrender myself to him in some way. Are there any gurus out there who just give the Naam and thats it? I am chanting 16 rounds. I would really appreciate feedback. Thank you so much.

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72-09-04 Letter: Jadurani

Regarding your questions, second initiation is real initiation. First initiation is the preliminary, just to make him prepared, just like primary and secondary education. The first initiation gives him chance to become purified, and when he is actually purified then he is recognized as a brahmana and that means real initiation. The eternal bond between disciple and spiritual master begins from the first day he hears. Just like my spiritual master. In 1922 he said in our first meeting, you are educated boys, why don't you preach this cult. That was the beginning, now it is coming to fact. Therefore the relationship began from that day.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

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<center><tt>Sri Guru & His Grace

</tt>Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Deva Goswami

Chapter One </center>

<center> <tt>Surrender

to

Sri Guru</tt> </center> Even great scholars are perplexed in understanding what is good and what is bad, what to accept, and what to dismiss (kim karma kim akarmeti kavayo'py atra mohitah).dot_clear.gif Even great scholars fail to understand their real necessity. This material world is a jungle of perplexities, where the soul has accepted so many different kinds of bodies in different types of consciousness. In the Laws of Manu,dot_clear.gif it is written:

<center> jalaja nava laksani

sthavara laksa vimsati

krmayo rudra-sankhyakah

paksinam dasa laksanam

trimsal laksani pasavah

catur laksani manusah </center> There are 900,000 kinds of aquatics, 2,000,000 kinds of trees and plants, 1,100,000 kinds of insects and reptiles, 1,000,000 kinds of birds, 3,000,000 kinds of four-legged beasts, and 400,000 kinds of human species. Manu says that the trees are in such a hopeless position as a result of their own karma. Their feelings of pain and pleasure are similar to ours; their souls are not of a lower standard. Still, they are in such a deplorable position as a result of their own karma. They have no one to blame but themselves. This is the state of affairs in this external world.

We are living in an environment which is afflicted with serious misconception, misunderstanding, misguidance, and misbehavior. How are we to ascertain what is good and what is bad, what we should aspire after and what we should reject? Innumerable alternatives have thronged in a crowd, coming to influence us. And when this area, covered by illusion and influenced by misunderstanding, is filled with such diversity, how can we hope to know the infinite spiritual world of Vaikuntha? With what attitude should we approach that realm which is transcendental, beyond the realm of the senses and mind (adhoksaja).

The Genuine Guru

We must accept any way and any alliance that will help us gain entrance into that realm. We shall try to have even the slightest connection with that perfect goal of our innate aspiration. We are helpless; we are hopeless in the midst of disappointment. We are in extreme danger. We rely on our free will, our capacity of selection for our own good, but it is too minute and helpless to guide us. What danger we are in! All around us are witnesses to this danger. How important is a real guru who can guide us to our real welfare.

We are in the midst of different forces that are drawing us, attracting us towards different directions, so proper guidance is the most valuable and the most important thing for all of us. If we accept direction from anywhere and everywhere, we will be misguided. Therefore, we must be careful to get proper direction. That direction has been given by Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita:

<center> tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah </center> "To understand transcendental knowledge, you must approach a self-realized soul, accept him as your spiritual master, and take initiation from him. Inquire submissively and render service unto him. Self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you, for they have seen the truth."

Qualifications of a Disciple

Here, Krsna has given us the standard by which we can understand what is what, from a bona fide source. The standard to measure truth or untruth must come not from a vitiated, vulnerable plane, but from a real plane. And to realize that, we must have these three qualifications: pranipat, pariprasna, dot_clear.gifand seva. Pranipatdot_clear.gif means we must surrender to this knowledge, for it is not an ordinary class of knowledge, which as a subject we can make our object; it is supersubjective. We may be the subjects in this mundane world, but we will have to become objects to be handled by the superknowledge of that plane.

Pranipatdot_clear.gif means that one approaches a spiritual master, saying, "I am finished with the experience of this external world; I have no charrn for anything in this plane, where I have already traveled. Now I am offering myself exclusively at your altar. I want to have your grace." In this mood we should approach that higher knowledge.

Pariprasnadot_clear.gif means honest, sincere inquiry. We must inquire not with the tendency of discussion or in the mood of argument, but all our efforts should be concentrated in a positive line to understand the truth, without the spirit of doubt and suspicion. With full attention we should try to understand that truth, because it is coming from a higher plane of reality that we have never known.

Finally, there is sevaya,dot_clear.gif or service. This is the most important thing. We are trying to gain this knowledge not so we can get the help of that plane, not so we can utilize that experience for living here; rather we must give our pledge to serve that plane. Only with this attitude may we approach that plane of knowledge. We shall serve that higher knowledge; we won't try to make it serve us. Otherwise, we won't be allowed to enter into that domain.

Absolute knowledge won't come to serve this lower plane. We must offer ourselves to be used by Him, not that we shall try to use Him in our own selfish way, to satisfy our lower purpose.

With the mood of service we shall dedicate ourselves to Him; not that He will dedicate Himself to satisfy our lower animal purpose. So, with this attitude we shall seek the plane of real knowledge and receive the standard understanding. And then we can know what is what, and have a proper estimation of our environment.

This is Vedic culture. Absolute knowledge has always been imparted by this process alone, and never by the intellectual approach. Srlla Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta used to give the analogy of the bee: honey is in a bottle, the cork is in place, and the bee has taken his seat on the glass. He tries to taste the honey by licking the bottle. But, just as the bee cannot taste the honey by licking the outside of the glass bottle, the intellect cannot approach the world of spirit. We may think that we have attained it, but that is not possible: a barrier is there, like the glass. Intellectual achievement is not real achievement of higher knowledge. Only through faith, sincerity, and dedication can we approach that higher realm, and become a member. We can enter that higher plane only if they grant us a visa and admit us. Then we can enter that land of divine living.

So, a candidate must have these three qualifications before he can approach the truth which is on the higher plane of Absolute Reality. He can approach the Absolute Truth only with an attitude of humility, sincerity, and dedication. There are similar statements in the Srimad Bhagavatam and the Vedas. In the Upanisads it is said, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit panih srotriyam brahma nistham:dot_clear.gif "Approach a spiritual master. Do not go to him hesitatingly or haphazardly, but with a clear and earnest heart."

Spintual Life-a One Way Ticket

One should not approach the spiritual master "cutting a return ticket." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada used to always say, "You have come here cutting a return ticket." We must not approach the spiritual master with that attitude. Rather, we should think that we have seen everything, that we have full experience of this mortal world, and that we have nothing to aspire after here. With this clear consciousness, we should approach the guru. That is the only way for us to live. This world is mortal. There is no means, no possibility of living here, and yet the will to live is an innate tendency everywhere.

"I only want to live and to save myself. I am running to the real shelter." With this earnestness, the disciple will bring his spiritual master the necessary materials for sacrifice. He won't go to his spiritual master only to trouble the guru, but will approach him with his own necessities already supplied. He will go there with his own bed and baggage. Not that he will show some kindness to the spiritual master and give him name and fame by becoming his disciple.

And what will be the spiritual master's position? He will be well versed in the revealed truth, not in ordinary information. Revelation in many shades has been spread in the world from the upper realm, but the guru must have some spacious, graphic knowledge. He must have extensive knowledge about the revealed truth. And he must always be practicing real spiritual life. His activities are all connected with spirit, not with the mundane world. He is concerned with Brahman, the plane which can accomodate everything, the fundamental basis of everything (brahma-nistham). Not that he is leading his life with any mortal, mundane reference. He always lives in the transcendental plane and keeps himself in connection with that plane his whole life. Whatever he does, he will do only with that consciousness. This is the version of the Upanisads.

And in the Srimad-Bhagavatam dot_clear.gif(11.3.21) it is said:

<center> tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasuh sreya uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahmany upasamasrayam </center> Mayadot_clear.gif means misconception. We are living in the midst of misconception. Our understanding of the environment is based on a completely misconceived set of ideas and thoughts. We have no proper conception of anything in the absolute sense. Our ideas are all relative. Provincial selfishness has been imposed on the environment, and we are living under that misconception. When one comes to the conclusion that everything will vanish, then, with that mood, he will feel the necessity of approaching the guru, the divine guide and preceptor, with the purpose of inquiry. "What is the highest good for me?" With this inquiry, he will approach the spiritual master.

And who will he approach? One who is not only well-versed in the precepts of the revealed scriptures, but who has also come in contact with the revealed truth. One who is conversant with the very object of the scriptures, and who has practical experience, who is established in pure consciousness, is a genuine guru. One should approach such a guide for his own relief, to understand what is the highest benefit in the world and how to attain it. This is necessary. It is real. It is not imaginary. At the same time, it is difficult. The Absolute Truth must be sought out through a real process, otherwise we shall go the wrong way and then say, "Oh, there is nothing here; it is not real." So, only if we follow this real process of understanding the truth will we experience the real nature of divinity.dot_clear.gifnext

index

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You really need to have a serving attitude to approach Guru, not to 'take' something but to surrender yourself. My Gurudeva is so merciful to me, the only direct instruction (beyond instructions in sadhana etc in darshan or if I was directly asking for service) was to chant 16 rounds without offense and follow the regulative principles. This is His great mercy because I am so fallen, if He gives me too many instructions I may not be able to follow and cause offense. It sounds like you want this sort of merciful Guru. But really you should beg for service from Guru, this is the point of bhakti yoga, to surrender to the servant of the servant of the Lord and serve. We are here to serve the Holy Name, it isn't here to serve us. You (nor I!) will receive it truly until we are proper receivers, this means taking a negative position with deep humility and selflessness. I would suggest you aren't ready to take initiation until you feel the necessity inside yourself to serve.

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Haribol! Please can someone explain to me what is the difference between harinama initiation and diksa (mantra) initiation? as I thought that they were the same?

 

I am chanting 16 rounds and I really want to recieve the pure Hare Krishna Maha mantra from a bona fide vaishnava. However, I've had lots of bad experiences and do not want any personal guru to always be expecting me to surrender myself to him in some way. Are there any gurus out there who just give the Naam and thats it? I am chanting 16 rounds. I would really appreciate feedback. Thank you so much.

 

Candice,

 

Lord Caitanya taught that the Holy Name acts immediately and does depend on nor wait for formal intiation procedures. The potency is already there in the Name. The important thing is that you chant with a Vaisnava understanding and in the association of Vaisnavas and never mayavadis who will pollut you with their misconceptions. Undoubtly you know this already.

 

You already have a guru. Several in fact. You have Srila Prabhupada's books in which he can be found in his commentaries. Also his taped talks and lectures. You have Caitya-guru in your heart who we may not be able to hear but who nontheless hears us in our prayers and the desires of our hearts and will guide us true. He is the real guru.

 

Should you feel you want to surrender to a guru manifest on earth it is Caitya guru that will reveal exactly who His representative is and will arrange the connection between you and that person while protecting you from all the pretenders that pop up along the way...and there are many out there posturing themselves as links to Krsna.

 

And there is one more. Please read the quote from Srila Prabhupada that I use as a signature on the bottom of this post.

 

It will be hard to resist the peer pressure to "get a Guru" and join the club but if you are wise you will wait until you have no doubts within yourself that Krsna is directing you to one particular person.

 

Hare Krsna

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I definitely agree that you should try and listen to Caitya-guru and that Guru is there in the shastra (which I include all Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada's books to be, not just His translated ancient scripture), but the importance of Guru in bodily form can't be minimized. It may be possible only to listen to Caitya-guru and books, but can you hear Caitya-guru clearly? Do you fully understand all you read? Keep searching for the Guru in physical form. It is my feeling so many of the problems ISKCON has had is because they are lacking the Acharya in physical form, and even though Srila Prabhupada spelled it out so clearly so many times, without His direct association misunderstanding of His desires occured, still occurs. Even when Guru is there, in the same room, we may misunderstand, what to speak of when we can't ask for clarification. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and His mission, I don't mean to say anything offensive.

 

I recommend you read the book Sri Guru and His Grace in it's entirety online here. Search for Guru even when you find Him, because he is deeper than we know.

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<table border="0" width="800"><tbody><tr><td width="60%"> All Will Be In Vain

Tridandi Gosvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

Oahu, Hawaii: Jan. 19, 2002 (Evening - Part 1)

All glories to Srila Swami Maharaja. I know that he has collected you all

and brought you here, and as far as I am concerned, he has dragged me here.

All glories to him. Only glorifying will not do, however. We'll have to

follow his instructions. It is not enough to say, "All glories to Srila

Prabhupada." You have to follow his deep instructions in your life, and then

the fruit will come. Otherwise, where you were before, you will remain, and

there will be no advancement.

'sadhu-sanga', 'sadhu-sanga' – sarva-sastre kaya

lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya

"The verdict of all revealed scriptures is that by even a moment's

association with a pure devotee, one can attain all success." (Cc. Madhya

22.54)

If you have a little sraddha (faith), or even if you have nistha (firm

faith), or even ruci (taste), if you have no sadhu-sanga, no high-class

association, you will lose whatever you have. Even if you have attained the

stage of ruci, if that ruci has not matured, there will be some doubt.

Again, so many offences and unwanted mentalities and habits will attack you,

as they attacked Bharata Maharaja and others. I know that you are not at the

stage of Bharata Maharaja or anyone of his calibra. Whether or not you have

even achieved nistha, you can judge yourself by keeping your hands on your

heart and asking your heart.

Although you have not attained nistha, still I am discussing with you the

topics concerning our aim and how we can achieve it. If you are not in the

correct process, even if you think you have so much love and affection, if

your feelings and activities are not approved by sastra, then all is in

vain.

[sripad Madhava Maharaja:] Sruti-smrti-puranadi-pancaratra-vidhim vina /

aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate. ["Devotional service to the

Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures – the Upanisads, Puranas,

Narada-pancaratra, etc. – is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society

(BRS 1.2.101)."] Sruti means Veda, and smrti means smrti-sastras

(corollaries to the Vedas) like Manu-smrti. Pancaratra means

Narada-pancaratra. The great sages have explained in their books about the

goal and process to achieve it. Without the approval of these sastras, and

without the proper process, if you do something by your uncontrolled mind

and you think, "This is the best process. I have discovered it by myself,

and by this process I can achieve krsna-prema," your actions will go in vain

and they will also create chaos in your mind. The day will come that you

will give up all spiritual practices.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] As much as your bhakti increases, humility will

come and you will think, "I'm very low." If your bhakti has not increased,

then only false ego will act. If bhakti is gradually developing, then

gradually your humility, as told in slokas like 'trnad api sunicena,' will

manifest. You will realize, "I really have nothing. I have no power. I

really have no bhakti." At that time you will be able to realize how

insignificant you are. Srimati Radhika thinks in this way. She says, "I

actually have not even a scent of prema for Krsna. I have not served Him. I

have not even seen Him." Only She can speak like this, as this is this the

symptom of mahabhava. It is very high. You should realize that you are

nothing. You are a particle, and that particle can be covered at anytime by

maya. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura therefore says in his Sri Bhajana Rahasya

that even if you have received nistha, you should hear from high-class

devotees.

There are two kinds of bhagavatas. One is the transcendental book bhagavata,

which was received by Vyasa in his trance, and in which all kinds of very

powerful and sweet pastimes of Krsna have been given. It is under lock and

key, however. It can be only opened by the highest class of

bhakta-bhagavata. These devotees have the key. Any ordinary bhakta, anyone

who is in a stage lower than rati, cannot unlock it. Only one who has

received suddha-sattva from an eternal parikara (associate) of Krsna, like

Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami and all the sad-Gosvamis, Srila

Narottama dasa Thakura, and others up to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and

Srila Prabhupada, can open the lock.

Don't lose the fortune to hear from superiors. Even if your whole business

goes down, there is no harm. Even if you lose your job in a government

department, that is not a loss. On the other hand, if you lose your

opportunity for saddhu-sanga, that is a great loss.

I know so many devotees here, especially from India, who don't avail

themselves of sadhu-sanga. They have come to the West to make money. Their

money is more important to them than bhakti. On the other hand, you have

left all these things and you have come here to hear. You are most

fortunate. Continue in this way. To lose any worldly thing is not really a

loss, but to lose this opportunity is very unfortunate.

Sometimes, if your friend or relative is a mayavadi, karmi, yogi, or jnani,

you try to please him – because he is your friend. Don't associate with such

people, even if they are your friends or relatives; otherwise, you yourself

will become a mayavada. Don't associate with mayavadis, and especially don't

associate with lusty persons and friends of lusty persons. If you want to

make advancement, then make friendship with a devotee who is superior to you

in bhakti, who has love and affection for you, and who is svajatiya,

like-minded. 'Like-minded' refers to one who is like-minded for paramartha

(transcendental life) – not for worldly things. He should be an ocean of the

type of prema for which you aspire. By hearing from him, you develop

increased steadiness in bhakti, and you also develop all the stages beyond

that.

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I definitely agree that you should try and listen to Caitya-guru and that Guru is there in the shastra (which I include all Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada's books to be, not just His translated ancient scripture), but the importance of Guru in bodily form can't be minimized. It may be possible only to listen to Caitya-guru and books, but can you hear Caitya-guru clearly? Do you fully understand all you read? Keep searching for the Guru in physical form. It is my feeling so many of the problems ISKCON has had is because they are lacking the Acharya in physical form, and even though Srila Prabhupada spelled it out so clearly so many times, without His direct association misunderstanding of His desires occured, still occurs. Even when Guru is there, in the same room, we may misunderstand, what to speak of when we can't ask for clarification. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and His mission, I don't mean to say anything offensive.

 

I recommend you read the book Sri Guru and His Grace in it's entirety online here. Search for Guru even when you find Him, because he is deeper than we know.

 

I am sorry but you do not understand the point I was trying to make.If interested please reread my post.

 

Search for Sri Guru and his grace is exactly what approaching Caitya-guru is. Do you have some way of discovering Krsna's devotee without the guidance of Caitya guru? If so please share it with us.

 

I have read Sri Guru and His Grace and have my own copy. But thanks for link anyway.

 

You are not offending anyone prabhu. Disagreement is not the same as being offensive.

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Srila Prabhupada, can open the lock.

Yes, and that is exactly what the Bhaktivedanta purports are for... "opening the lock" of the verses he is commenting on.

Others may have other sources that Caitya-guru has lead them too. No problem. The principle remains the same. I am not a "Prabhupada only" fanatic. I quote Srila Prabhupada because that is where I am being directed. If your guru is a transcendent personality then his commentaries lectures and taped conversations will carry his presence also after his body wears out. That is the whole point in the devotees bothering to write their realizations down. In that way their preaching can extend beyond the immediate limitations of time and space.

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Excellent post Brajeshwara prabhu. It's easy to mistake the voice of Maya devi to be that of Caitya guru. The importance of a living spiritual master can never be minimized. Excellent advice!

 

 

I definitely agree that you should try and listen to Caitya-guru and that Guru is there in the shastra (which I include all Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada's books to be, not just His translated ancient scripture), but the importance of Guru in bodily form can't be minimized. It may be possible only to listen to Caitya-guru and books, but can you hear Caitya-guru clearly? Do you fully understand all you read? Keep searching for the Guru in physical form. It is my feeling so many of the problems ISKCON has had is because they are lacking the Acharya in physical form, and even though Srila Prabhupada spelled it out so clearly so many times, without His direct association misunderstanding of His desires occured, still occurs. Even when Guru is there, in the same room, we may misunderstand, what to speak of when we can't ask for clarification. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and His mission, I don't mean to say anything offensive.

 

I recommend you read the book Sri Guru and His Grace in it's entirety online ["scsmath.com/books/Sri_Guru_and_His_Grace.pdf"]here. Search for Guru even when you find Him, because he is deeper than we know.

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Yes, and that is exactly what the Bhaktivedanta purports are for... "opening the lock" of the verses he is commenting on.

 

Others may have other sources that Caitya-guru has lead them too. No problem. The principle remains the same. I am not a "Prabhupada only" fanatic. I quote Srila Prabhupada because that is where I am being directed. If your guru is a transcendent personality then his commentaries lectures and taped conversations will carry his presence also after his body wears out. That is the whole point in the devotees bothering to write their realizations down. In that way their preaching can extend beyond the immediate limitations of time and space.

 

 

Yet still devotees are arguing over the meaning of the purports, endlessly, especially concerning the origin of the soul and guru tattva. These arguments go on because there is no "living" authority that all accept who can act as a supreme authority. You are leaving it to Caitya-guru to tell you which side of the arguments of interpretation to follow. But there is no way for you or any conditioned soul to know if they are following Caitya-guru or their own imagination. Also if every neophyte devotee is following Caitya-guru then why are we fighting in the first place? It's an endless circular argument that many have experienced while preaching to Born Again Christians. It seems as if you are overlaying some of the underpinings of Protestant theology onto Krsna Consciousness. I have always thought that both hard and soft rtvikism were derived from modern Protestant, especially evangelical thought.

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I am sorry but you do not understand the point I was trying to make.If interested please reread my post.

 

Search for Sri Guru and his grace is exactly what approaching Caitya-guru is. Do you have some way of discovering Krsna's devotee without the guidance of Caitya guru? If so please share it with us.

 

I have read Sri Guru and His Grace and have my own copy. But thanks for link anyway.

 

You are not offending anyone prabhu. Disagreement is not the same as being offensive.

 

Sorry theist, my comments weren't directed at you and I definitely wasn't trying to give you instruction, just clarifying to the original poster to search out a Guru manifest on earth. And I'm not saying Caitya-guru is not of primary importance. Also, I'm not trying to exert any 'peer pressure' to join a 'club' and find it distasteful to hear Guru parampara referred to in that way, though it may be true that often that is the case. I personally think those comments may not be altogether helpful.

 

The reality is scriptures don't tell us to only read shastra and listen to Caitya-guru, but to find a bona-fide spiritual master and surrender. This is what the association of the devotees means - who is His highest devotee? Guru. If we can't find (or can't see we have) physical association we can rest assured we can find 2 of the three readily in shastra and Caitya-guru. Anyhow, I don't want to discuss some chicken-and-the-egg scenario - which comes first, Guru inside or Guru outside? I am too fallen to understand that clearly.

 

Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada took initiation from Guru manifest on earth, His example was to surrender in that way. If you take your instruction from Him, I would think you would see this as the example. This is the way of the Vaisnavas.

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Sorry theist, my comments weren't directed at you and I definitely wasn't trying to give you instruction, just clarifying to the original poster to search out a Guru manifest on earth. And I'm not saying Caitya-guru is not of primary importance. Also, I'm not trying to exert any 'peer pressure' to join a 'club' and find it distasteful to hear Guru parampara referred to in that way, though it may be true that often that is the case. I personally think those comments may not be altogether helpful.

 

Oh ok. No problem anyway. There are many here I feel I can discuss any differences with in a move towards harmony without creating unnecessary personal discord and you are one of them. No harm in offering me instruction either. I may accept or not but offering instruction in a spirit of kindness is vaisnavism and is appreciated.

 

The peer pressure I was thinking of stems from my experience in and around ISKCON. I have seen many many people make a vow to guru only to break that vow in short order. This is an offense to guru and Krsna and results in a rocky guilt ridden experience that disturbs the mind and is an obstacle to progressive spiritual growth. that was never necessary in the first place.

 

 

The reality is scriptures don't tell us to only read shastra and listen to Caitya-guru, but to find a bona-fide spiritual master and surrender. This is what the association of the devotees means - who is His highest devotee? Guru. If we can't find (or can't see we have) physical association we can rest assured we can find 2 of the three readily in shastra and Caitya-guru.

 

I agree.

 

 

Anyhow, I don't want to discuss some chicken-and-the-egg scenario - which comes first, Guru inside or Guru outside? I am too fallen to understand that clearly.

 

I understand your reluctance. I seem to emmired in such and get frustrated repeatedly. You are not too fallen to understand this point clearly IMO.

 

 

Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada took initiation from Guru manifest on earth, His example was to surrender in that way. If you take your instruction from Him, I would think you would see this as the example. This is the way of the Vaisnavas.

 

Yes. People seem to think I am anti-formal intiation. I am not. I am however for taking that step with the utmost seriousness and conviction. It is very true I do not see it as a necessary thing but I realize the value it can have in helping one focus and determination.

 

I also see the fact that Srila Prabhupada called his first meeting with Bhaktisiddhanta his intiation and then he says 11 years later he formalized it offically. That example is very potent. He mentions the impression pressed upon him by Bhaktisiddhanta as being his initiation.

 

One should use every means available to one to find a teacher that is channeling unadulterated Krsna consciousness. Study the qualities that are supposed to be possessed by guru. But study them after a heart felt prayer for guidance from the Lord in the heart. And don't make a move until you receive a confirmation from Him on the issue.

 

If we are hearing a lecture from His devotee why not be in a mood of petition to the Lord to please grant us the ability to hear his devotee correctly As He Is.

 

I am in no way advocating that everyone withdraw like hermits and just read books. I am advocating that we all be conscious of the Lord who is with us at every moment as we try to progress.

 

Some see this as controversial for reasons I cannot begin to fathom.

 

Candice has the Holy name and is chanting 16 rounds a day with vaisnava understanding of what she is doing. She is already receiving Krsna's grace in large amounts. She can be assured that developing steadiness at her present level is of prime importance and that any anxiety of picking an embodied guru is a needless harassment to her mind. If her faith goes to Krsna then there is no possiblity of her being misdirected.

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Yet still devotees are arguing over the meaning of the purports, endlessly, especially concerning the origin of the soul and guru tattva. These arguments go on because there is no "living" authority that all accept who can act as a supreme authority.

 

Non realized devotees, (us), will always argue and disagree. Even two people sitting before their embodied guru and listening to the same lecture may disagree on what they heard. Or it may be that one portion of the lecture is more pertinent to one devotee and the other will focus more on an different portion.

 

Why is that? Because we are all individual souls at our own individual level of realizations. It may also be that one devotee is not allowed acess to the true message of the guru because of past offenses and therefore Caitya-guru will not grant him the ears to hear certain things.

 

The point is Caitya guru is a factor in every action. That includes everything from taking our next breath to hearng/reading guru properly. And since He is such a factor why not recognize that and place on faith on Him that He will guide us correctly?

 

Bhakti-yoga may appear formulaic at the surface level but really it is intensely personal on a deeper level.

 

 

 

You are leaving it to Caitya-guru to tell you which side of the arguments of interpretation to follow.

 

Yes that is a fact. But I also don't feel the need to take a side on every arguement. I have become comfortable with not needing to declare a position on everything that comes up. Three words that are of immense importance to me are, "I DON'T KNOW".

 

I will know when the Lord enlightens and until then I remain ignorant. I don't see a third option.

 

 

 

But there is no way for you or any conditioned soul to know if they are following Caitya-guru or their own imagination.

 

That is not true. by the grace of the Lord we all have learned that chanting His Name is the path to follow. Who told us? Caitya guru either first internally or second externally through His manifestation as the spiritual master. A genuine pure devotee is not separate from Supersoul. To see him as such is offensive isn't it? If we don't think our guru has realized his qualitative oneness with Krsna then why the hell have we acceptd him as guru in the first place?

 

And further more the only one that can confirm in absolute terms who His devotee is is the Lord Himself. When He acts as that confirming agent He is known as Caitya guru.

 

To think that one can sidestep the Lord in this most sacred step of realizing guru is sheer and a product of not seeing things as they are.

 

 

 

Also if every neophyte devotee is following Caitya-guru then why are we fighting in the first place?

 

Why? We fight because we are neophytes. That is what neophytes do. Anything from someone putting their tilak on a little crooked to the origin of the atma becomes a contentious thing in the mind that is filled with contention and confusion.

 

 

 

It's an endless circular argument that many have experienced while preaching to Born Again Christians. It seems as if you are overlaying some of the underpinings of Protestant theology onto Krsna Consciousness. I have always thought that both hard and soft rtvikism were derived from modern Protestant, especially evangelical thought.

 

I don't see the point you are trying to make. Also I don't relate to the word ritvik hard or soft. Just recently a devotee posted how Shyamananda had so many ritvik disciples so one needn't go outside the Parampara to find examples.

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I don't see the point you are trying to make. Also I don't relate to the word ritvik hard or soft. Just recently a devotee posted how Shyamananda had so many ritvik disciples so one needn't go outside the Parampara to find examples.

 

Bon Maharaj gave initiation to a lady in London in about 1935 as a ritvik of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

 

Ritvik acharya or representative acharya is not a new thing in our sampradaya. It is not coming from Protestantism.

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Devotee: Could you please explain about diksa or second initiation?

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj: Initiation means diksa. Diksa is the main initiation in our Vainava religion. In the age of Kali-yuga, if you do not take second initiation - called diksa in our society - that will not be harmful if you took the Harinama Mahamantra from a bonafide guru.

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Devotee: Could you please explain about diksa or second initiation?

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj: Initiation means diksa. Diksa is the main initiation in our Vainava religion. In the age of Kali-yuga, if you do not take second initiation - called diksa in our society - that will not be harmful if you took the Harinama Mahamantra from a bonafide guru.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja has said that all Vaishnavas are gurus.

So, really, if one gets the Harinama Mahamantra from any Vaishnava connected to the parampara, then that should be equal to getting it from a guru.

Srila Prabhupada has given examples in his books of how people who encounter a Sankirtan party are all initiated into the Holy Name.

 

The formal ceremony is not exclusively initiation into the Holy Name.

Otherwise, what is the meaning of public Sankirtan if there is not distribution of the Holy Name?

 

In fact, the public Sankirtan is the act of distributing the Holy Name to the whole world.

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if one gets the Harinama Mahamantra from any Vaishnava connected to the parampara, then that should be equal to getting it from a guru.

Some devotees chant suddha-nama, the pure name. Some chant with offenses, and their chanting is nama-aparadha, not pure chanting. Some others chant nama-abhasa. To get Harinama initiation you need to get the pure Harinama.

 

If you get the Name from a person who is not chanting the suddha-nama, the pure name, then you don't get to hear the real Nama. You get something else.

 

 

================

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj...

 

Dead Mantras

 

So, the very gist of the guru parampara, the disciplic succession, is siksa, the spiritual teaching, and wherever it is to be traced, there is guru. One who has the transcendental eye, the divine eye, will recognize the guru wherever he appears. One who possesses knowledge of absolute divine love in purity--he is guru. Otherwise the guru parampara is only a body parampara: a succession of bodies. Then the caste brahmanas, the caste goswamis, will continue with their trade, because body after body, they are getting the mantra. But their mantra is dead. We are after a living mantra, and wherever we can trace the living tendency for a higher type of devotional service, we shall find that there is our guru. One who has that sort of vision awakened will be able to recognize the guru wherever he may appear.

 

Initiation into the mantra means to impart real knowledge and devotional sentiment from one to another. And that must be genuine. Nothing can be known about a homeopathic globule by an outer physical inspection, but the potency is within. So also within the mantra the important thing is the type of thought or sentiment which is imparted through that sound. The impersonalists have got the same mantra, and are also chanting, the holv name of Krsna, but that sort of name will vanish in the brahmajyoti. They won't be able to cross the Viraja, the river between the material and spiritual world. When the mayavadi chants the name of Krsna, Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that his chanting of the name of Krsna is just like thunder to the holy body of Krsna. It does not produce any soothing effect.

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Some devotees chant suddha-nama, the pure name. Some chant with offenses, and their chanting is nama-aparadha, not pure chanting. Some others chant nama-abhasa. To get Harinama initiation you need to get the pure Harinama.

 

If you get the Name from a person who is not chanting the suddha-nama, the pure name, then you don't get to hear the real Nama. You get something else.

 

 

================

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj...

 

Dead Mantras

 

So, the very gist of the guru parampara, the disciplic succession, is siksa, the spiritual teaching, and wherever it is to be traced, there is guru. One who has the transcendental eye, the divine eye, will recognize the guru wherever he appears. One who possesses knowledge of absolute divine love in purity--he is guru. Otherwise the guru parampara is only a body parampara: a succession of bodies. Then the caste brahmanas, the caste goswamis, will continue with their trade, because body after body, they are getting the mantra. But their mantra is dead. We are after a living mantra, and wherever we can trace the living tendency for a higher type of devotional service, we shall find that there is our guru. One who has that sort of vision awakened will be able to recognize the guru wherever he may appear.

 

Initiation into the mantra means to impart real knowledge and devotional sentiment from one to another. And that must be genuine. Nothing can be known about a homeopathic globule by an outer physical inspection, but the potency is within. So also within the mantra the important thing is the type of thought or sentiment which is imparted through that sound. The impersonalists have got the same mantra, and are also chanting, the holv name of Krsna, but that sort of name will vanish in the brahmajyoti. They won't be able to cross the Viraja, the river between the material and spiritual world. When the mayavadi chants the name of Krsna, Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that his chanting of the name of Krsna is just like thunder to the holy body of Krsna. It does not produce any soothing effect.

You defeated yourself with that quote from Sridhar Maharaja.

The Holy Name never becomes contaminated or diminished.

It is the mentality and the conception that is important.

 

A sincere person can get the Holy Name from a less sincere person and get all perfection. It all depends upon the sincerity of the chanter.

 

That quote from Sridhar Maharaja does not support your argument.

It defeats your position.

He clearly says that everything depends upon the conception that one has while chanting.

The Holy Name is independent.

Nama Prabhu is not limited to the mentality of one whom he uses to give himself to another.

 

It is the sincerity of the chanter that invokes the Holy Name.

Hari Nama is not restricted by any agent who he passes through to another.

 

Your argument is false and based on false assumptions.

 

Soccer anyone?

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Dear Candice, that is the problem with ISKON. They will be on your back. Even when they say Mahamantra, You still need to chant secretly Gayathri Mantra. this shows the mahamantra itself is not enough. And their mahamantra is the modified version. Get a diksha mantra from a bonafide Guru such as Ammachi or any other saint. They wil come and help you in a way you and your soul astonish.

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Guruvani is true. Good example will be valmiki. He chanted MARA MARA instead of RAMA RAMA. And he got the benediction of KRSNA and he gave us the Ramayana. This Mayavadi, impersonalist theory is a hoax created by ISKON cult.

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You defeated yourself with that quote from Sridhar Maharaja.

The Holy Name never becomes contaminated or diminished.

It is the mentality and the conception that is important.

 

A sincere person can get the Holy Name from a less sincere person and get all perfection. It all depends upon the sincerity of the chanter.

 

That quote from Sridhar Maharaja does not support your argument.

It defeats your position.

He clearly says that everything depends upon the conception that one has while chanting.

The Holy Name is independent.

Nama Prabhu is not limited to the mentality of one whom he uses to give himself to another.

 

It is the sincerity of the chanter that invokes the Holy Name.

Hari Nama is not restricted by any agent who he passes through to another.

 

Your argument is false and based on false assumptions.

 

Soccer anyone?

So the people who got Harinama from Kirtanananda, they got the real thing?

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You defeated yourself with that quote from Sridhar Maharaja.

The Holy Name never becomes contaminated or diminished.

It is the mentality and the conception that is important.

 

A sincere person can get the Holy Name from a less sincere person and get all perfection. It all depends upon the sincerity of the chanter.

 

That quote from Sridhar Maharaja does not support your argument.

It defeats your position.

He clearly says that everything depends upon the conception that one has while chanting.

The Holy Name is independent.

Nama Prabhu is not limited to the mentality of one whom he uses to give himself to another.

 

It is the sincerity of the chanter that invokes the Holy Name.

Hari Nama is not restricted by any agent who he passes through to another.

 

Your argument is false and based on false assumptions.

 

Soccer anyone?

 

Clearly you didn't read what Srila Sridhara Maharaja was saying.

 

He said the realization of the person giving the Name is "the important thing".

 

 

within the mantra the important thing is the type of thought or sentiment which is imparted through that sound.

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haridas Thakura Quote:

 

He said the realization of the person giving the Name is "the important thing".

 

So mean Valmiki is no good, his caliber is not up to standard? or He is not a realized soul. That RAMA mantra was used by his sincerety. That is why he got the realization. Another example is Bhakta Prahadlad Maharaj. He never chanted Mahamantra, but he got Krsna's darshan. It is their sincerity and their mind set.

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