Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

[Shakti-Fan 0]

Anyway to fight over this issue is also an offense. Yet I must say to view the origin of the soul as given by Srila Narayana Maharaja, Srila Bodhayan Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja and previously Srila Sridhar Maharaja and of course many others is the proper way to harmonize Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada's teachings. Otherwise we are left to assume that the eternal parishads of Radha Govinda are tumbling out of Goloka in a free fall into the oblivion of stool eating species of life - whether we word juggle our way into believing they are just imagining it or not. Therefore to think that these parishads or eternal associates are falling IS Vaisnava aparadha.

[theist 1]

 

]

 

 

The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Fall From Goloka

 

 

 

 

The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1> of<st1> Krishna</st1></st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode, this means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe).

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

In a comparable way, whens ones dreams or thoughts are not <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition. This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary. In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed.

Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s.

There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1><st1>Krishna</st1></st1:place>.

To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) is extended to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body).

As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana.

 

This strikes me as perfectly rational. I would add that the reason we lose awareness of our transcendental form is that form exists as it is only as a form for rasa with Krsna. So naturally when we forget Krsna we would have to forget our own rasa body.

 

On the other hand there is something that troubles me with this scenario. It suggests that each individual soul was placed in their role by Krsna and not as an excercise of our own free will.

 

I would love an explanation to this doubt of mine. The origin from bramajyoti side's scenario does not raise this doubt.

 

It is a quandry for the mind for sure. Like a flower that folds up it's petals at night and unfolds them again in the morning. Which came first for the form of the soul?

 

Kind of a chicken and egg thing huh?

 

Hopefully someone will help me out here.

[theist 1]

 

Anyway to fight over this issue is also an offense. Yet I must say to view the origin of the soul as given by Srila Narayana Maharaja, Srila Bodhayan Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja and previously Srila Sridhar Maharaja and of course many others is the proper way to harmonize Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada's teachings. Otherwise we are left to assume that the eternal parishads of Radha Govinda are tumbling out of Goloka in a free fall into the oblivion of stool eating species of life - whether we word juggle our way into believing they are just imagining it or not. Therefore to think that these parishads or eternal associates are falling IS Vaisnava aparadha.

 

The fact you are still suggesting that someone "tumbles out of Goloka" means you haven't bothered to understand your opponents position. That has been explain numerous times.

 

I find it equally absurb to think that new souls are continously "being born" and added to the Goloka/Vaikuntha fold as they pop out of the bramhajyoti.

 

But of course there could be a way in the timeless realm of this happening also.

 

And this points up why we will never solve this with logic or quotes or anything else short of our own reception of Divine revelation on this question. We just can understand what transpires in transcendence from our present positions. That is why that realm is called Trancendental.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

There are so many mental constructs we can use to approximate the inconcievable reality. Most are jnana which lead only to further jnana. Yet if bhakti is to filter through the mirror of our mind, which thoughts will open our hearts to the vibration of bhakti coming from the possesor of such, Sri Guru? To meditate upon the glories of the eternal parishads (associates) of the Lord is our lofty goal. Maybe if we hope against hope we will some day wish to become their followers. To concieve of their potential fall is not their glory and will lead to our vainglorius stagnation and fall from what is our potential as jiva souls. The only separation from the inhabitants of Goloka or Gokula will ever experience are the pangs of not seeing Him face to face for even the time of a batting of an eye-lash.

 

"Lord Caitanya, greatly relishing all the verses of Srimad-Bhagavatam which He was explaining to Sanatana, quoted another verse (Bhag. 9.24.65):

yasyananam makara-kundala-caru-karna-

bhrajat-kapola-subhagam savllasa-hasam

nityotsavam na tatripur drisibhih pibantyo

naryo naras ca muditah kupita nimes ca

"The gopis used to relish the beauty of Krishna as a ceremony of perpetual enjoyment. They enjoyed the beautiful face of Krishna, His beautiful ears with earrings, His broad forehead and His smile, and when enjoying this sight of Krishna's beauty, they used to criticize the creator Brahma for causing their vision of Krishna to be momentarily impeded by the blinking of their eyelids.""

Excerpt: Chapter 10: The Beauty of Krishna

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

[Guest guest]

Theist,

 

I read what you said. But I am not able to reply to this right now since it is Saturday here and we have programs planned for this weekend that I need to focus on.

 

The big thing wrong with this "Pradyumna Swami's" ideas is that they are clearly contradicted by shastra.

 

The fact is, there are a whole lot of lessons taught in shastra that specifically address this issue which the "we left Goloka" refuse to accept. Because they have taken the view that they only believe in the English language words of the most recent Prophet, the latest and greatest of all Prophets, they are not really Gaudiya Vaisnavas in my opinion. The texts written by the previous Acharyas are there for anyone to read if you can read Bangla and Samskrt; but these people only read Prabhupada's books. Prabhupada's books are all good, but they are not everything.

[brajeshwara das 0]

 

I find it equally absurd to think that new souls are continuously "being born" and added to the Goloka/Vaikuntha fold as they pop out of the bramhajyoti.

 

 

Couldn't this be like ever-increasing ecstasy? Infinite jivas infinitely expanding the rasa for the Lord's satisfaction? All happening outside the bounds of material time? Acintya surely.

[Guest guest]

This is Kusakratha's translation of Brhadbhagavatamrtam 2.6.352-363

 

Gopiparandhana's translation is better, as it also has the Sanskrit. Later today I will post the important verses in sanskrit and some sections of Srila Sanatan Goswami's tika (commentary). I can't post it all because it will involve too much typing. If anyone else has Gopiparanadhana's translation then perhaps you can type and post this section.

 

352 O friend, after some time, as if he had never come before, Akrura came again with his chariot to Vraja.

353 Again he took away the life of Vraja. The people there attained the same condition as before.

354 Again Krsna went to Mathura city, killed Kamsa, and returned to Vraja as before. In this way He enjoyed pastimes.

355 Again and again He goes to Mathura city and, as before, again and again He returns and enjoys pastimes in Vraja.

356 Again and again He subdues Kaliya. Again and again He lifts Govardhana Hill. Again and again the Lord enjoys many wonderful pastimes that enchant the devotees' hearts.

357 Poisoned by great love for Sri Krsna, the people of Vraja think these events never happened before.

358 Separated from Him, and meeting Him again, their love for Krsna grows very great.

359 For the eternal residents of Vraja the news of these pastimes is far away. Even newcomers like myself cannot remember them.

Kusakratha: Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that by the Lord's mercy the eternal residents of Vraja forget these pastimes.

Muralidhar: note, Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that some devotees in Goloka are "newcomers".

360 How can they who are always plunged in a great ocean filled by streams of the Lord's charming sweetnesses and are unmaddened by attaining the great treasure of pure love for Him, not forget?

361 Ah, plunged in an ocean of love for His dear devotees, even the Lord Himself, the crown of the wise, has not the power to understand His own opulences, what He has done, and what He will do.

Kusakratha: Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that even Lord Krsna forgets that these pastimes have happened again and again.

362 These pastimes, where the Lord's lotus feet are served by His personal associates, are eternal, spiritual, and full of knowledge and bliss.

Kusakratha: Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the Lord's pastimes appear like those of an ordinary human being. This is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.8.31. Sri Vishnu Purana also explains:

"By His own wish the Lord of the universes enjoys pastimes like those of a human being."

363 O brahmana, thus I have described to you the extraordinary and supremely exalted flood of sweetness that is Goloka's glory.

[Guest guest]

All the devotees in Goloka Vrndavana are pure devotees.

 

If a pure devotee in Goloka Vrndavana can occasionally decide that his own desires are more attractive than the prospect of serving Radha-Krishna's desires, then this means Maya is more powerful than Krishna.

 

It also means that when a pure devotee is in this world, he can fall down. Yes, if a pure devotee can fall while engaged in lila in Goloka Vrindavana, he can obviously also fall while engaged in lila in the material universe.

 

As a result, all of Radha-Krishna's eternal associates, when they manifest to display divine lila in our universe, can and will occasionally fall down. So we should count ourselves lucky that Srila Prabhupada didn't fall down while performing his pastimes in our universe 30+ years ago.

 

Yes, according to Pradyuma Swami's philosophy, Prabhupada could have fallen down, which is an utterly offensive philosophical conclusion, though Pradyumna Swami's philosophy makes that conclusion necessary.

[Guest guest]

 

This strikes me as perfectly rational. I would add that the reason we lose awareness of our transcendental form is that form exists as it is only as a form for rasa with Krsna. So naturally when we forget Krsna we would have to forget our own rasa body.

 

On the other hand there is something that troubles me with this scenario. It suggests that each individual soul was placed in their role by Krsna and not as an excercise of our own free will.QUOTE]

 

I was listing to a Srmad Bhagavatam class (on tape) by Pradyumna Swami. This is a excerpt from that class: -

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness has said:

 

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastra-sakti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna".

 

‘The Gita tells us there was no birth for the jiva and there is no death, we have eternally existed. Even though we understand Krishna created everything we also understand that that creating has no beginning. It’s hard for us conditioned souls to get our biological brains around the concept of no beginning and no end. From the very start, well lets put it another way, long, long, long, long, long ago we chose to ‘do our own thing’ and ‘consciously’ come to the mahat-tattva (material manifestation) We have always had that choose to remain with Krishna or leave him.

 

As theist put it –

 

“I would add that the reason we lose awareness of our transcendental form is that form exists as it is only as a form for rasa with Krsna. So naturally when we forget Krsna we would have to forget our own rasa body”.

 

Class continued – ‘Even those who come from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the tatastra have previous been active in the material universe in ethereal and biological vessels, and before that they were with Krishna. We are talking about an enormous long period of time here that is practically an eternity. Its hard to understand they there is no beginning or end to all this. Technically we were never created because we have always existed. This may even possible mean we have left our Rasa with Krishna and sub-consciously came to the mahat-tattva to live out our non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and dreams on many, many occasions due to the eternal nature of our existence.

 

This idea puts fear in many because there is always the possibility of falling down, not just once from Goloka, but time and time again. There is a very simple answer to this.

 

The golden rule for staying in Goloka is

 

‘Always remember Krsna and never ever, ever forget Him because if you choose otherwise, ‘consciously’ you cannot stay there.

 

This is where free will and choice comes into the equation, that choice has eternally been there from the beginning, well, that’s just it, there is no beginning. The choice is always there and has always been there. Krishna does not force us to stay and thats why the mahat-tattva exists. Some, actually many (1/4 of all the nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha devotee’s) desire to experience their nitya-baddha secondary condition (jiva-bhutah) where they can ‘imagine’ themselves as lord and master of all they see’ It is important to try and get your head around the perception and understand ‘we have always had to freedom to go or come back to Goloka’ however it must be clearly understood that our ‘rasa transcendental unique perpetual body never leaves Goloka)

 

While the light in your house is on, there is no darkness however, as soon as the light is turned off, then darkness is everywhere, you cannot see anyone around you or your own body.

 

Similarly, when you are Krishna Conscious as your full potential bodily nitya-siddha self, the secondary conscious state (nitya baddha and jiva-bhutah), like the darkness, is not there, it does not exist and because of the ‘light’ there is no evidence it ever did exist. Only when the light is out can darkness exist.

[Guest guest]

On the front cover of Back to Godhead, Srila Prabhupada has written

 

Godhead is light. Nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience. This is a very profound statement’.

[Vigraha 0]

 

All the devotees in Goloka Vrndavana are pure devotees.

 

If a pure devotee in Goloka Vrndavana can occasionally decide that his own desires are more attractive than the prospect of serving Radha-Krishna's desires, then this means Maya is more powerful than Krishna.

 

It also means that when a pure devotee is in this world, he can fall down. Yes, if a pure devotee can fall while engaged in lila in Goloka Vrindavana, he can obviously also fall while engaged in lila in the material universe.

 

As a result, all of Radha-Krishna's eternal associates, when they manifest to display divine lila in our universe, can and will occasionally fall down. So we should count ourselves lucky that Srila Prabhupada didn't fall down while performing his pastimes in our universe 30+ years ago.

 

Yes, according to Pradyuma Swami's philosophy, Prabhupada could have fallen down, which is an utterly offensive philosophical conclusion, though Pradyumna Swami's philosophy makes that conclusion necessary.

 

Nowhere does Pradyumna Swami suggest anything like what you have stated. He is simply quoting what Srila Prabhupada has said:-

 

 

Prabhupada further says:“Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

[Vigraha 0]

 

I have noticed that no opponent to the position taken by Paramananda Puri has taken up this point with any logic to try to explain why it cannot be in their own words. Usually it's ignored or maybe a quote from someone is offered leading me to believe it is a perceived insurmountable point the opponents are fearful of tackling or they just don't understand it.

 

I understand it. It really is very simple if one is not threatened by it. That doesn't mean I accept because I can understand it nor do I reject it. It is a thoughtful proposition that should be dealt with with proper philosophical speculation and not just laughed off and called "stupid".

 

What is the response to this question from the 'origin in bramajyoti-vadis'?

 

Srila Prabhupada: - “The soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. but his relationship with Krishna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of Krishna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krishna is eternal as both Krishna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new”

 

Our original relationship with Krishna is never lost. It was ripped away from us by the prakshepatmika-shakti of Maya, and we were then covered over by her avaranatmika-shakti of forgetfulness. As such, our original relationship with the Lord is forgotten, and this has tragic consequences for the jiva. We futilely try to re-establish that personal relationship with material liaisons, and this is ultimately only productive of misery.

 

"The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the ethereal and biological body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

 

This misfortune is only very rarely transcended by artificially adopting mayavada and self-imposing the belief that we have never had any personal relationship with Krishna.

 

"Yes. The conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus were with Krishna before being conditioned . . . similarly, each soul has seen Krishna . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 2.25.70

 

"We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ." Address to large audience - Prabhupada on the Hare Krishna album

 

The protagonist’s opposition with this quotation from Prabhupada:

 

"The all-pervading feature of the Lord, which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states, and from which the jiva-shakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls, is known as brahman."

Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 16

 

Please note that the adverb "originally" is nowhere to be found in this quotation. Jivas may descend or generate many times in this way from brahma-sayujya, but that does not make the brahmajyoti their original home.

 

The terminology of sparks, energies, atoms in the effulgence, and potency are only metaphors, a allegories - a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities originally impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always as individual bodily personalities where the Master isKrishna and jivatma-vigraha devotee's are the servants (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna).

 

In is way it is clear that every living entity (marginal potency) has/is an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha whether they are aware of who they really are or not.

[Guest guest]

 

Even though ones original body can never fall down from Krishna’s perpetual Kingdom, it is possible, due to free will, one can enter a trance like insignificant (real but temporary) secondary consciousness called the jiva-bhutah lower self and forget that unique blissful nitya-siddha bodily form or higher self and ‘consciously fall’ (not as ones uninterrupted bodily form) to the nitya-baddha eternally conditioned state.

 

 

Here Pradyumna Swami states that someone in the spritual world, a being he calls a "higher self", can enter into a "secondary consciousness called the jiva-bhutah lower self".

 

Perhaps we might delve a bit deeper into what he means when he speaks about this "lower self state".

 

Pradyumna Swami has described the actual falldown in these words: "enter a trance like insignificant secondary consciousness". From this, it would seem that the "lower self state" is an external thing that someone will ENTER. It would appear that if "I" am a liberated being and "I" fall down the state of being who "I" have become is "not-I". I am not the jiva in bondage (jiva-atma) I have become.

 

Reading the writings of Pradyumna Swami one gets the impression he is saying this "secondary consciousness called the jiva-bhutah lower self" is not "I". The real "I", my pure higher self, is right now existing in the blissful Spiritual Sky.

 

His proposition that the jiva-soul is a projection of the higher, liberated self is similarly a feature of the philosophy of Sankaracarya, with the distinctive difference being that in Sankara's view the jiva is projected by Narayana whereas in Pradyumna Swami's philosophy the jiva is projected by a servant of Narayana or Sri Krishna. In Sankara's philosophy he also acknowledged that Narayana has divine associates, and moreover that we can approach Narayana through Bhakti (Sankara sang the famous song "bhaja govindam bhaja govindam" as well as "Jagannatha Swami nayana pathagami.."). But Sankara's thinking was severely criticized by the Dvaita philosopher Madvacarya who argued that the jiva is not a projection but an eternally existing individual being.

 

Indeed the Gaudiya Acaryas also affirm that the Jiva is not a projection but an eternal being with no beginning and no end. This Jiva-bhutah is described in Bhagavad Gita 15.7

 

mamaivamso jiva-loke jiva-bhutah sanatanah

manah-sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati

TRANSLATION

The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.

 

According to Sri Jiva Goswami (Paramatma Sandarbha 19), the jiva is a conscious "knower" and at the same time a self-luminous (svayam prakasha) being. Like the light of a lamp the jiva manifests itself through its own life-force; and it illuminates objects such as the senses and body with its consciousness, moving these things with the force of its will-power. The jiva is luminosity, however it is manifested from Paramatma, who alone is self-luminous in the absolute sense. In the terminology of Srila Sridhar Maharaj, the jiva is a subject and not an object, whereas Paramatma is the Super Subject or in other words the All-knowing Absolute Being.

 

The jiva has no beginning:

B.Gita 15.7

jneyam yat tat pravaksyami yaj jnatvamrtam asnute

anadi mat-param brahma na sat tan nasad ucyate

 

TRANSLATION

Krishna says: I shall now explain the knowable, knowing which you will taste the eternal. This is beginningless, and it is subordinate to Me. It is called Brahman, the spirit, and it lies beyond the cause and effect of this material world

 

Here Sri Krishna lists the primary characteristics of the jiva. The jiva is a) called Brahman, b) beginningless, c) it is knowable, d) through knowing brahman you "taste the eternal", e) it lies beyond the cause and effect of the material world, f) it is subordinate to Krishna Himself.

 

Having said these things, I would like to quote something said by a follower of Pradyumna Swami:

 

 

Similarly, when you are Krishna Conscious as your full potential bodily nitya-siddha self, the secondary conscious state (nitya baddha and jiva-bhutah), like the darkness, is not there, it does not exist and because of the ‘light’ there is no evidence it ever did exist. Only when the light is out can darkness exist.

 

 

I trust that this statement of Paramananda puri is a proper representation of Pradyumna Swami's teachings. The teachings, thus, are that the jiva has a beginning time and an end time; that it is a non-eternal being separate and different from its source. The jiva is a "secondary consciousness" called "the jiva-bhutah". The jiva begins when someone in Goloka-Vaikuntha enters into what Praduyumna Swami has called a "subconscious" consciousness or "lower self state". Again, I must point out that this is the pure philosophy of Sankara. It is an echoing of Sankara's philosophy that only the eternal oneness of the transcendent Sat-Chit-Ananda really exists (brahma satya jagan mithya) and that the jivas and this world are an illusion.

 

The Gaudiya Acaryas including Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada have stated in strong terms that the jiva never ceases to exist at any time and that this world is not a projected "world-illusion" but rather a reality (maya-shakti) inhabited by real individuals who are struggling and suffering.

 

B.Gita 15.7

apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param

jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat

 

TRANSLATION

Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe.

 

Pradyumna Swami and his followers suggest that when a soul is free from the world-illusion he will no longer be in Maya and no longer be a jiva.

 

This is my understanding of what Pradyumna Swami is teaching.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Vigraha 0]

You have completely missundertood - The jiva-sakti refers to the transfomation of the jivatma-vigraha. The jiva-sakti only exists in the mahat-tattva.

 

 

Godhead is light. Nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience. This is a very profound statement’.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada states in his teachings of Lord Chaitanya referring to the living entity (jiva-bhutah consciousness) entrapment in the material manifestation (mahat-tattva): -

‘The living entity is eternally part and parcel of God, when he is liberated from the impermanent material manifestation; he revives his original, eternal, part-and-parcel bodily identity. The realization of aham brahmasmi ("I am not this biological body") does not mean that the living entity loses his identity. At the present moment a person may consider himself to be matter, but in his liberated state he will understand that he is not matter but spirit soul, part of the infinite. To become Krishna conscious or spiritually conscious and to engage in the transcendental loving service of Krishna are signs of the liberated stage’.

 

Every living entity (Krishna’s marginal potency) has an original nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-atma-vigraha body they can realize if they remain Krishna Conscious, or can never realize when not Krishna Conscious. The meaning of these Sanskrit words are: -

 

Nitya-siddha - Everyone (all living entities or the marginal potency of Krishna) has a perpetual nitya-siddha higher self or Krishna conscious body that can never fall or leave Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

The fall down (forgetting Krishna) state is not a bodily plunge, it is a conscious descend downwards to the lower self or unconscious dream setting where one’s ‘thoughts’ enters and creates the holographic dimension of the material delusional universe, such creations are not factually created by the jiva-bhutah transmitted consciousness, even though one may think they are creating such facilitates due to forgetfulness of who they really are and Krishna the cause of all causes. In actual fact all the dreams, thoughts and desires of the transmitted secondary self are built into a secondary reality within the mahat-tattva by Maha-Vishnu.

 

Nitya-siddha refers to ones original Krishna Conscious body or higher personified self personified that is always there in bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (Gods Kingdom) even when ones dreaming jiva-bhutah consciousness, or lower self is projected into the material universe of dreams, or further transformed into the jiva-nikaya stage or non-dream state that happens after the embodied jiva-bhutah becomes frustrated with the impermanent nature of its material hallucinations, that, from the viewpoint of the Vaikuntha’s, are no more real than a mirage in a desert. However on this absolute level, all dreams, hallucinations, thoughts and mirages are real but temporary because the mahat-tattva or material universe does temporarily exist in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

 

Eventually the jiva-bhutah’s ethereal and biological containments that trap the transmitted life force or secondary consciousness in the material-interactive condition of existence in the mahat-tattva, withdrawals from the confines of those bodily vessels and the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, withdrawing to the jiva-nikaya inactive non-ethereal, biological and material condition. This is just another change of consciousness, altering one illusion for another,an active sub-consciousness (material activities), to an inactive sub-consciousness (Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti that exists outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu but still within the confines of the mahat-tattva.).They are both an illusion (real but temporary) and only exist in sub-conscious dreams transmitted from the Nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha body to the mahat-tattva as either the jiva-bhutah or jiva-nikaya condition while totally unaware of the atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body.

 

Due to the nature of eternal time and the permanence of the Spiritual universe or Personal Brahman or Brahmajyoti, past, present, future, space and time that can only exist within the mahat-tattva cloud within the Spiritual Sky, are amalgamated as an everlasting event with no beginning or no end. Everything in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha eternally happens in the present. This confirms that ones original atma-jiva-vigraha body is always in Goloka-Vrndavana, even if one is sub-consciously off somewhere else in some imaginary dream. That dream world or non-Krishna conscious mahat-tattva is the material universe and comes under the phenomena of past, present, future, time, space, ethereal vessel, biological vessels, impermanence, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age, death

 

· Siddhasvarupa - One’s Krishna Conscious unique, original and servitor personal relationship with Krishna that is eternally in Goloka-Vrndavana even if one has turned their back on Krishna and experience existence through their lower self as the sub-conscious transmission of non-Krishna conscious desires or thoughts, where one imagines themselves as many different forms with many personalities, still their real transcendental state of Krishna Consciousness and relationships with Krishna, His internal plenary individual expansions and His devotee’s (other nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha’s) is always in Goloka-Vrndavana, regardless if ones dreaming consciousness has entered the abstract universe of shadows known as the material universe. It is therefore clear that ones original eternal relationship is always with Krishna, even while one is dreaming other things and has forgotten their atma-vigraha body from where the illusionary dreams are transmitted. One can only be re-awakened, after previously ‘choosing to deliberately leaving Goloka-Vrndavana’, when one is again Krishna Conscious. It is impossible to understand whom one really is in Krishna Lila (pastime) while still absorbed in the sub-conscious-jiva bhutah or jiva-nikaya projected hallucinations.

 

· Sat - Krishna Conscious eternity beyond time and space, past, present and future.

· Cit- Krishna Conscious Knowledge.

· Ananda - Krishna Conscious bliss.

· Atma - (soul’s higher self, personality and individuality) – Krishna Conscious self, identity, and personality (also atma can mean jiva however, in this thesis, the jiva (soul’s lower self) is the sub-consciousness of the full conscious atma (the souls higher self) and is called the jiva-bhutah that is the transmitted dreaming consciousness that creates the material illusion. The non-Krishna Conscious jiva-bhutah-sub-consciousness only exists when one is not Krishna Conscious, just as darkness cannot exist when the light is on.

 

· Vigraha - Soul’s Krishna Conscious eternal form and is the atma’s individual eternal identity and personality

 

Ones inability to remember Krishna while trapped in the jiva-bhutah sub-consciousness is due to attachment to the lower self. This addiction to counterfeit bodies and identities are shaped by the jiva-bhutah-sub-conscious determination to satisfy their self-interest of being determined to enjoy like Krishna, replacing service to Krishna with service to the imaginary self. In this way, the shadow of the Krishna Conscious atma-jiva-vigraha body becomes that imagined self and is called the jiva-bhutah-sub-conscious non-Krishna conscious condition. This shadow of ones self is only interested in pursing self-centered sensual gratification (lower-self addicted to ethereal, biological and material life or non Krishna conscious dreams) that creates what we call the material universe where one can forget Krishna for almost an eternity if they want.

 

The Brahmajyoti or Brahman is held together by form and is the entire creation where Goloka-Vrndavana, the Vaikuntha’s (imperishable) as well as the mahat-tattva (perishable) exist. What anyone does within the mahat-tattva, it is like acting out a role in a play

 

Generally nitya-siddha among Vaishnava's means one never falls to the conditioned living entity stage, known as the jiva-bhutah non-Krishna dreaming conscious condition, which is the sub-conscious lower self (nitya-baddha or eternally conditioned state) that is oblivious to their full Krishna Conscious atma-vigraha body in Krishna's perpetual Kingdom.

The lower conscious self (jiva-bhutah) is always in the nitya-baddha condition of comatose consciousness that can only actively manifest within the perishable material universal dream. Therefore, more or less, their understanding is correct however, even though the nitya-siddha atma-vigraha bodies never fall down from Krishna's Personal Kingdom, the introverted dreaming conscious state 'within' which is called the nitya-baddha jiva-bhutah, can be generated as consciousness from ones real self or nitya-siddha atma-vigraha bodily form.

 

Even though ones original body can never fall down from Krishna’s perpetual Kingdom, it is possible, due to free will, one can enter a trance like insignificant (real but temporary) secondary consciousness called the jiva-bhutah lower self and forget that unique blissful nitya-siddha bodily form or higher self and ‘consciously fall’ (not as ones uninterrupted bodily form) to the nitya-baddha eternally conditioned state. This is similar to forgetting the biological body while sleeping and dreaming. In simple terms, the atma-vigraha body, or higher conscious awareness in the form of ones real bodily form serving Krishna in the Kingdom of God, is eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and can never fall down, where as the lower conscious self, manifested as a multiple dreaming bodily identities and forms within the material universe or mahat-tattva, is eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) and is always in that state.

Every living entities original individual bodily devotional form (marginal potency of the Lord) in Krishna's Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode.

[Guest guest]

 

You have completely missundertood - The jiva-sakti refers to the transfomation of the jivatma-vigraha. The jiva-sakti only exists in the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

For five days I have been asking you to provide a single quote from Scripture to support this bizarre notion that "jivatma-vigraha" transforms to become jiva-sakti.

 

Again I ask, where is the evidence in scripture to support your theory?

[Guest guest]

 

Even though ones original body can never fall down from Krishna’s perpetual Kingdom, it is possible, due to free will, one can enter a trance like insignificant (real but temporary) secondary consciousness called the jiva-bhutah lower self and forget that unique blissful nitya-siddha bodily form or higher self and ‘consciously fall’ (not as ones uninterrupted bodily form) to the nitya-baddha eternally conditioned state. This is similar to forgetting the biological body while sleeping and dreaming. In simple terms, the atma-vigraha body, or higher conscious awareness in the form of ones real bodily form serving Krishna in the Kingdom of God, is eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and can never fall down, where as the lower conscious self, manifested as a multiple dreaming bodily identities and forms within the material universe or mahat-tattva, is eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) and is always in that state.

 

Every living entities original individual bodily devotional form (marginal potency of the Lord) in Krishna's Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode.

 

 

I will try to answer the issues he raised in relation to the statement above.

 

 

In simple terms, the atma-vigraha body, or higher conscious awareness in the form of ones real bodily form serving Krishna in the Kingdom of God, is eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and can never fall down, where as the lower conscious self, manifested as a multiple dreaming bodily identities and forms within the material universe or mahat-tattva, is eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) and is always in that state.

 

 

Pradyumna Swami also says that the fall is "not as ones uninterrupted bodily form". The spiritual body, according to him, is in the spiritual world. The "lower self" is in the material world and all actions being performed by the "lower self" are like actions done when someone is sleeping and dreaming.

 

According to statements from Brhadbhagavatamrtam I have already posted in this thread, in his Goloka Lila the Lord again and again enjoys his many lilas.

 

 

Brhadbhagavatamrtam ( 2.6 )

352 O friend, after some time, as if he had never come before, Akrura came again with his chariot to Vraja.

353 Again he took away the life of Vraja. The people there attained the same condition as before.

354 Again Krsna went to Mathura city, killed Kamsa, and returned to Vraja as before. In this way He enjoyed pastimes.

355 Again and again He goes to Mathura city and, as before, again and again He returns and enjoys pastimes in Vraja.

356 Again and again He subdues Kaliya. Again and again He lifts Govardhana Hill. Again and again the Lord enjoys many wonderful pastimes that enchant the devotees' hearts.

 

 

Goloka (transcendent) and Gokula (earthly) pastimes go on simultaneously. Once in a day of Brahma Lord Krishna appears on earth and lives in Gokula. He fights Kamsa and other asuras on Earth and then withdraws into the Goloka lila again.

 

We jiva souls have been in illusion (according to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and other authorities) since a time that has no beginning. Thus, while Krishna is engaging in his pastimes in Goloka, and while he is again and again killing Kamsa then returning to Vraja from different universes, periodically descending into this world and having his earthly lila again and again, what were these "jivatma-vigraha" spiritual bodies doing? Standing around in Goloka dreaming? Like a forest of trees or something? Since 1/4 of ParamPadam is the material world, there must be a lot of "Higher Selves" standing around in Goloka.

 

And as well as that, where did you find this term "jivatma-vigraha" anyhow. I cannot find a single reference for it in the shastra. I take it you mean to indicate the svarupa of the jiva when you use this term. But where does this term come from? Has Srila Prabhupada used this term "jivatma-vigraha" someplace?

 

Returning to Brhadbhagavatamrtam, there are a few statements there I would like to bring to the attention of the devotees.

 

Verse 2.6.357

But the residents of Vraja, completely bewildered by the kulakata poison of their supreme love for Sri Krishna, never think that any of these events has ever occurred before.

 

Verse 2.6.358

Thus the powerful force of their obsessive love ever increasingly grows, both in union and separation.

 

Verse 2.6.359

dure stru tavad varteyam tatra nitya nivasinam

na tisthed anusandhanam nutnamam madrsam api

As true as this is for the eternal residents of Vraja, even NEWCOMERS like me can hardly remember those past events.

 

Theist, I believe this verse addresses a number of issues you have raised.

 

In this verse above:

dure stru tavad varteyam tatra nitya nivasinam

na tisthed anusandhanam nutnamam madrsam api

 

... the word "nutnam" means new. New person in Goloka who is engaged in "anusandhana" or rememberance.

 

Firstly, I want to point out that it is clearly stated in scripture how some devotees in Goloka are "newcomers"; devotees who were conditioned souls but who have reached Goloka through sadhana-bhakti and the grace of Guru and Krishna.

 

Secondly, if you are a newcomer are you always marked out as a newbie? No, because in the recurring cycle of the lila the Lord's Yogamaya acts on the devotees so the devotees never think that any of the events in the lila have happened before.

 

Thirdly, how do people arriving from the material world get admitted into all the complex activities of Goloka pastimes? They do this by being born as an associate of Krishna in his earthly lila and then transferring to Goloka with all of their Gokula-lila consciousness intact.

 

Now, let me sum up things.

 

The jiva originates from Brahman, and if he chooses to go into maya he gets born in the mundane universe and becomes involved in karma. Of all the jivas in Brahman or Maya, some seek Narayana or want to serve Krishna in Vrindaban. After lifetimes spent practicing sadhana-bhakti the purified souls will get born as newcomers in the earthly lila of Sri Krishna. From there, they will attain Goloka where they become "NEWCOMERS". Again and again the lilas continue, and the newcomers become accepted parts of the pastimes, picking up new roles in the lila as supporting actors in that eternal drama of Goloka-bihari's sporting games.

 

Is that a thorough enough response, Theist?

[theist 1]

Thank you Murali. You have cited your evidence and considering the source it deserves much consideration. I however have much less faith in these scriptures than proponents of both sides of this debate so the question remains open for me.

 

My reading of the Bhagavatamrta is looser (if I can use that word). I believe things have been told in such a way that the readers can find something to hang on to as the actual reality of the situation is inconceivable.

 

You are still IMO not catching what is being said about the eternally present nature of the transcendental world or you wouldn't speak of 1/4 of the residents "standing around" in Goloka. It is next to impossible for us to see through the illusion of the sequential time experience of past present future. Considering this we have been given scriptures that by necessity have to present themselves to us in this way also to bridge us into the higher plane.

 

But I do understand more of where you are coming from as I also understand more fully the other side as well. I remain stuck with the chicken or egg problem as discussed in a previous post.

 

I would also like to say that I think it very unfair to say your opponents are "not even vaisnavas" as if this philosophical point here is the deciding factor on that. This is the real danger of this continuing debate. It has become a major dividing rift and why I remain thinking origin a natural and interesting question that need not be resolved on this material side.

 

Debate does not require animosity. Debate also can be in goodness, passion or ignorance. In goodness illumination will present itself. passion and ignorance will not deliver understanding. Which mode does animosity fall under I wonder?

 

We need to be gentle with each other. I know coming from me that will sound hypocritical but I want to move in that direction.

 

I have no more questions and thank everyone who has tried to enlighten me.

 

Still wondering in awe about it all,

theist

[Guest guest]

Theist for 25 years I have been hearing ISKCON people call my Guru Maharaj an impersonalist because of this topic, or an "offender to his Guru" because of another issue. It does annoy me.

[theist 1]

 

Theist for 25 years I have been hearing ISKCON people call my Guru Maharaj an impersonalist because of this topic, or an "offender to his Guru" because of another issue. It does annoy me.

 

I understand that. That attitude is one of the main reasons I haven't been to my local iskcon temple in years even though it is a 5 minute walk down the street. Not only your guru but other's teachers as well. others. It's intolerable. Sorry if it seemed I was singling you out, I wasn't.

 

I'm signing off this thread remembering Prabhupada's instruction not to spend time with Tal Fruit logic.

 

Nice talking to you Murali and thanks again for your efforts to help me understand your position.

 

Haribol

[Guest guest]

Could this be similar to how we fall from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Goloka?

Second Life is a 3-D virtual world entirely built and owned by its residents. Since opening to the public in 2003, it has grown explosively and today is inhabited by a total of 4,980,755 people from around the globe. Everyone escaping to a 2<SUP>nd</SUP> reality will experience its illusion more real as technology advances; this idea was laughable 10 years ago.

Could the Internet be not a second life, but actually a third life of transmitted illusion expressed as ‘third expression of our conditioned life without the restrictions of the biological body and the physical laws of our universe’ <?xml:namespace prefix = o />

There is even talk of putting virtual Hare Krishna devotee’s in ‘the second life internet game’ chanting Hare Krishna on the streets of major virtual cities around the world. Even a virtual <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Temple</st1:place></st1:city> can be built and visited online by members. Could modern science and technology be imitating what is already going on after we left Goloka? Pradyumna Swami explains; -

‘Unlike the Internet illusions modern science creates, the jiva-bhutah-sub-consciousness is real and temporally exists within the mahat-tattva cloud phenomenon (as a secondary conscious transferred from ones original body in Goloka created when one chooses to forget Krishna.

The extended-conscious jiva-bhutah is unaware of its original perpetual nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha bodily form transmitting the virtual illusionary reality to the material impermanent universe or mahat-tattva and give bodily vessels by Maha-Vishnu.

When the sub-consciousness (jiva-bhutah) begins it transformation from the nitya-baddha condition back to its full consciousness body (nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha), the nescience nitya-baddha-jiva-bhutah consciousness is disseminated by the effulgent personal nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha full bodily consciousness when ones Krishna Consciousness is re-established….

 

‘The Internet and the so-called second life phenomenon you have described to me is ‘the linking up of ones extended influence (sakti) through the technological materialistic facilities built by scientists to act as an extensive networks with destinations reaching all over the world wide web through a network of cables and satellites without really going anywhere, I compare that as ‘an imitation mahat-tattva’ that is built and controlled by conditioned souls, well ultimately everything in the mahat-tattva is built by Maha-Vishnu and His representatives.

This is very deep subject matter of trying to understand how the rebellious souls of the spiritually primitive 21<SUP>st</SUP> century, is trying to imitate Krishna to the point that if they cannot fulfill their desires with their biological body, they attempt to build a virtual universe where they can forget their biological body and live out their fantasies of grandeur, opulence, anything their mind can fantasies in that make believer world. Doesn’t this entire sound familiar? Isn’t this similar to how we originally feel down from Goloka?

 

In the case of the atma-vigraha devotional Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana, there is always the choice to forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> or stay with Him however, if one chooses to leave, they leave their rasa body behind in Goloka while they are consciously project as a secondary self to the mahat-tattva. The non-Krishna Conscious thoughts manifest as the sakti (influence or power) of the jiva. This is called the transmitted jiva bhutah.

 

In modern scientific terminology, second life becomes the virtual Internet (transmitted influence and power) super-highway (imitating the mahat-tattva creation of the Lord) that creates the many holographic bodies and places for the transmitted extension of consciousness to live out extended non-biological fantasies over the Internet.

 

The embodied jiva-bhutah’s already restricted to an ethereal vessel further covered by the biological rare human form, have only further chose to totally misuse their rare biological human form, the highest form out of the 8,000,000 biological vessels on offer, by choosing to foolishly enter a ‘fantasy dream-like state within the internet that is a complete illusion and no more real than the dreams their biological body is having.

 

This technology and science is ultimately the sakti of Maya and has further covered the biological vessel with lifeless psychological restraints where ones inner illusion are expressed as a reality within the confines of the Internet and brought our as an artificial world with simulated life forms. - The ‘thought’ transmitted virtual Internet super highway is actually a perverted reflection of an already perverted reflection (the secular material world their biological vessel is trapped in). In other words, we original left Krishna to ‘do our own thing’ and now we can further ‘switch off from our biological body’ and become totally absorbed in the so-called second life on the Internet.

 

A crude example of this can be compared to the present hi-tech virtual reality Internet revolution.

 

The material universe or mahat-tattva, even though real but temporary, can be compared to what the Internet virtual super highway and 3.D. computer games are to the biological human body in the scientific technological age of the 21st century, with one exception, the ethereal bodies in sub-space and the biological bodies in secular space are a real feature of the mahat-tattva but are perishable, where as the internet driven cyber-space is a total illusionary aspect within the mahat-tattva (dead matter can ALSO exist in the mahat-tattva) and just a further distraction for the gift of human life.

 

Another crude example of how this works: - Today modern scientists are sending probes out into space or in medicine they are sending probes deep into the biological body, these probes become an extension of their senses but have no effect directly on their senses. In this way, they can go deep into space or deep within the biological body without really going there. This is because they have extended their influence (sakti) or conscious awareness with the extensions of their sensual perception.

 

None of the extensions carrying their consciousness are real. Or another example is telephones and the new 3 dimensional televisions that will be widely available around 2020; one can be transported to a lounge room anywhere in the world, but are they really there? Through the visual senses they will appear real and sitting in your lounge room however, it is only an illusion. They are not real in that transmitted form, they are only real at the source of that transmission. On the other hand, the transmission of the real self’s consciousness (jiva-bhutah or the sakti of the jivatma-vigraha bodily form in Goloka) is real because the mahat-tattva is a real phenomenon or cloud within the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti. There is a real substance to the jiva-bhutah-sub-consciousness state because it is the sakti of the Atma-vigraha body serving <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in Goloka, they cannot be separated because, they are one (the light is the cause of the darkness when out) that can project that secondary non-Krishna Conscious state we call the jiva-bhutah consciousness.

 

In the scientific technological atheistic world of the spiritually primitive 21<SUP>st</SUP> century, there is no substance to the transmitted 3D television singles broadcasted from the television studio or some computer anywhere on the planet, where as EVERYONES secondary consciousness (lower self) broadcasted from their perpetual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana is real but the ethereal and biological vessels the jiva-bhutah consciousness takes shelter of in the mahat-tattva, is subject to impermanence and decay.

 

Due to the temporary nature of the material universe or mahat-tattva, prompted by forgetfulness, the embodied jiva-bhutah sub-consciousness (contained in a biological body that is already previously contained in the ethereal vessel when first entering the mahat-tattva) sheds a lifeless phenomenon (dead organic matter), these thought-generated-containers provide originally by Maha-Vishnu, without the presents of the jiva-bhutah consciousness, eventually breaks down and expands the lifeless aspect of the material universe with fossilized dust, gases and sand that eventually become rocks, mountains, planets, moons, solar systems and galaxies over trillions of years however, the material universe or mahat-tattva is already build by Maha-Vishnu whom has already antisapated the desires, dreams and thoughts of the jiva-bhutah’s who dare enter His dreams. He sees everything. Past. Present and future, He Knows what the rebellious souls want before they even do, and has already built the mahat-tattva for them.

 

There are two kinds of sayujya-mukti: merging into the Brahman effulgence and merging into the personal body of the Lord. Merging into the Lord's body is even more abominable than merging into His effulgence. According to the opinion of the Mayavadi Vedantists, the living entity's ultimate success is to merge into the impersonal Brahman after being liberated from ethereal and biological vessels inside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

<st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is the source of both the Personal Goloka-Vrndavana realm and the less significant Impersonal mahat-tattva cloud.

 

The impersonal Brahman, or bodily effulgence of the Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva, is known as Brahmaloka or Siddhaloka. According to the Brahma-samhita (5.40), yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti: the material universes are generated from the bodily rays Maha-Vishnu. Some Impersonalist Yogis accept the form of Maha-Vishnu yet want to merge into the transcendental body of the Supreme Lord. That is their desire, however this is only possible within the mahat-tattva. Being the creator and facilitator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu can easily allow many millions of living entities to merge their transmitted jiva-nikaya consciousness into His body.

 

The origin of everything is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Bhagavan, and Maha-Vishnu is his expansion within the mahat-tattva, His bodily effulgence is known as the brahmajyoti, Brahmaloka or Siddhaloka. Thus Brahmaloka or Siddhaloka is a place where the jiva-nikaya ‘inactive’ consciousness appears as sparklike outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu yey still within the mahat-tattva cloud. They exist total denial of their original authentic bodily form outside of the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

 

This jivatma-vigraha bodily Krishna Conscious form is the authentic constitutional position of all of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s marginal potency or energy.

[theist 1]

 

Second Life is a 3-D virtual world entirely built and owned by its residents. Since opening to the public in 2003, it has grown explosively and today is inhabited by a total of 4,980,755 people from around the globe. Everyone escaping to a 2^nd reality will experience its illusion more real as technology advances; this idea was laughable 10 years ago.

Could the Internet be not a second life, but actually a third life of transmitted illusion expressed as ‘third expression of our conditioned life without the restrictions of the biological body and the physical laws of our universe’

Yes yes this is what is happening. Instead of becoming uncovered from maya people are developing yet another covering to try to escape this one.

This is not so new because movies have always been used in this way but because of the new technology this can be more than the clumsy escape of the movies and totally envelope the participant.

I can envision kids who will identify much more closerly with the virtual identity than with the more mundane one they were born with.

It's all another trap by maya. The idea of bringing Krsna consciousness into that dimension is brilliant. Krsna consciousness is applicable in every dimension and corner of all existence so why not in this other virtual world.

Devotees would enter in as lucid dreamers (virtuals) and explain to people who they really are.

Not a new idea because that is exactly what the self realized have been doing in this dimension since time immemoriable, entering here into our virtual reality and living amongst us as lucid viturals to try and bring us back to our true selves as lovers of Krsna. For this is the fact of our present state, we already are living in a virtual reality.

 

[Guest guest]

Where are we?

 

In Vaikuntha or the material world?

 

This verse says doesn't say Jaya and Vijaya stayed in Vaikuntha and dreamed they were in Maya. It says the fell into the material world and were promised that they would return to Vaikuntha after three births.

 

 

SB 7.1.39: While Jaya and Vijaya, thus cursed by the sages, were falling to the material world, they were addressed as follows by the same sages, who were very kind to them. "O doorkeepers, after three births you will be able to return to your positions in Vaikuṇṭha, for then the duration of the curse will have ended."

 

 

It is also clear from this that a duration of time will pass in Vaikuntha while Jaya and Vijaya are living in the material world. So time is not "unchanging" in Vaikuntha while life is going on here.

[theist 1]

Murali,

 

Just an observation. If we consider that the jiva coming from the brahman has no form but is like an individual pin point of spiritself and then enters material life still he is always separate from material and enters as Vigraha has pointed out. The only difference I see is that you say the soul comes from Brahman and he says Vaikuntha.

 

Still can't accept past and future in the transcendental world.

[Guest guest]

In verse 2.2.186 of Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes Shankaracarya's verse, “mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta”, which he translated as “Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes”. Srila Sanatan Gosvami then quotes Srimad Bhagavatam 6.14.5 “muktanam api siddhanam narayana parayana”, that is, “The liberated and perfected souls are engaged in Narayan's service.” Then Srila Sanatan Gosvami asks himself: “If liberated souls didn't have forms then how could they engage in the Lord's service?” The answer: “Bhagavati layam praptasyapi nri dehasya mahamuneh punar narayana rupena pradurbhavah”. Even those who have merged into the Lord have dormant human forms.

 

The question arises, where are these dormant human forms? Are they in Vaikuntha or in our atma?

 

In the commentary to verse 2.2.207, Sri Sanatana Goswami wrote:

 

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Narayana, or Krishna. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare. Impersonalists generally imagine themselves perfect and liberated, and among them a very few may actually attain impersonal liberation. But those rare souls, like all others, are eternal servants of Hari, the all attractive Lord. Out of millions of such rare liberated impersonalists, one very fortunate soul may realize this natural fact. Since intelligence is dormant in the “merged” soul, it can be reawakened. Even the liberated souls who have merged into the formless divine light of the spiritual sky retain their eternal spiritual bodies, complete with spiritual mind and senses. Nothing, not even liberation, can ever deprive a jiva of these assets. The muktas worship Hari's most attractive attributes and glories with spiritual bodies. Such worship is not done with material bodies and senses. Consequently the muktas hear and chant with spiritual bodies and senses.

 

 

Note the statement that the jivas "retain their eternal spiritual bodies".

 

The (dormant) spiritual body is a property of the jiva soul.

 

It is not that the jiva soul is a property of the spiritual body. The scriptures do not speak of things in that way.

[Guest guest]

 

Still can't accept past and future in the transcendental world.

 

That's fine by me. Everyone is free to follow their own intuition about what is real and right.

 

However in the Brhadbhagavatamrtam it is said that the Lilas of Goloka sometimes becomes visible on the mundane plane, at the time when Krishna appears on Earth; then taking all the new recruits who join him in his earthly pastimes the Lord withdraws with his lila to Goloka.

 

You don't have to believe this, but I do.