Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva??

[Tirisilex 0]

Ok.. I'm trying to make sense of all this.. Krishna is an Incarnation of Vishnu but is the Supreme personality of the God Head.. Brahmans claim Brahma is the supreme.. Shiavism claims Shiva is the supreme. I do not even know the differences between these.. Morality and basic themes such as chant a mantra all seems pretty much the same thing just different words and different faces. I've been thinking about which sect is the best for me.. I decided to go with Krishna simply because it was Krishna who revealed himself to me and showed me compassion and love.. Not the other Gods..

[Beggar 0]

 

Ok.. I'm trying to make sense of all this.. Krishna is an Incarnation of Vishnu but is the Supreme personality of the God Head.. Brahmans claim Brahma is the supreme.. Shiavism claims Shiva is the supreme. I do not even know the differences between these.. Morality and basic themes such as chant a mantra all seems pretty much the same thing just different words and different faces. I've been thinking about which sect is the best for me.. I decided to go with Krishna simply because it was Krishna who revealed himself to me and showed me compassion and love.. Not the other Gods..

Lord Brahma and the impersonal Brahman that some Brahmans see as supreme are different.

 

http://www.krishna.com/gitaframeset/gita_frameset.html

 

From the Introduction to The Bhagavad Gita As It Is:

His Divine Grace

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

It is also explained in the Gītā that impersonal Brahman is also subordinate to the complete Supreme Person (brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham). Brahman is more explicitly explained in the Brahma-sūtra to be like the rays of the sunshine. The impersonal Brahman is the shining rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Impersonal Brahman is incomplete realization of the absolute whole, and so also is the conception of Paramātmā. In the Fifteenth Chapter it shall be seen that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Puruṣottama, is above both impersonal Brahman and the partial realization of Paramātmā. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is called sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. The Brahma-saḿhitā begins in this way: īśvaraḥparamaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ/ anādir ādir govindaḥsarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam. "Govinda, Kṛṣṇa, is the cause of all causes. He is the primal cause, and He is the very form of eternity, knowledge and bliss." Impersonal Brahman realization is the realization of His sat (eternity) feature. Paramātmā realization is the realization of sat-cit (eternal knowledge). But realization of the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is realization of all the transcendental features: sat, cit and ānanda (eternity, knowledge, and bliss) in complete vigraha (form).

[Gaea 0]

 

Ok.. I'm trying to make sense of all this.. Krishna is an Incarnation of Vishnu but is the Supreme personality of the God Head.. Brahmans claim Brahma is the supreme.. Shiavism claims Shiva is the supreme. I do not even know the differences between these.. Morality and basic themes such as chant a mantra all seems pretty much the same thing just different words and different faces. I've been thinking about which sect is the best for me.. I decided to go with Krishna simply because it was Krishna who revealed himself to me and showed me compassion and love.. Not the other Gods..

 

I see how one can get confused over this... Brahma, Visnu, Shiva are like the holy trinity of the Vedas. Vaisnavas (esp. HK etc) believe Krsna is the ORIGINAL Personality from which these three originate so in that context Krsna IS NOT an incarnation of Visnu. Other Hindus believe the impersonal aspect of God is Supreme and to them Krsna is indeed an incarnation of Visnu.

 

As Beggar said, Brahma and Brahman are DIFFERENT. Brahma is the three-headed creator who sits in the lotus. Brahman on the other hand is the impersonal aspect of God. The Brahmanas that you speak of are the priest caste in Hinduism - they aren't necessarily Brahma or Brahman worshippers.

[Beggar 0]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase:Teachings of Lord Caitanya

Chapter 9: The Opulences of Krishna

His Divine Grace

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

From revealed scriptures it is understood that Krishna lives in three transcendental places. The most confidential residence of Krishna is Goloka Vrindavana. It is there that He stays with His father, mother and friends, exhibits His transcendental relationships and bestows His mercy amongst His eternal entourage. There yogamaya acts as His maidservant in the rasa-lila dance. The residents of Vrajabhumi think, "The Lord is glorified by particles of His transcendental mercy and affection, and we, the residents of Vrindavana, have not the slightest anxiety due to His merciful existence." As stated in Brahma-samhita (5.43), all the Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky (known as Vishnuloka) are situated in the planet known as Krishnaloka, Goloka Vrindavana. In that supreme planet the Lord enjoys His transcendental bliss in multiple forms, and all the opulences of the Vaikunthas are fully displayed in that one planet. The associates of Krishna are also full with six opulences. In the Padmottara-khanda (225.57) it is stated that the material energy and the spiritual energy are separated by water known as the Viraja River. That river flows from the perspiration of the first purusha incarnation. On one bank of the Viraja is the eternal nature, unlimited and all-blissful, called the spiritual sky, and this is the spiritual kingdom, or the kingdom of God. The spiritual planets are called Vaikunthas because there is no lamentation or fear there; everything is eternal. The spiritual world has been calculated to comprise three-fourths of the energies of the Supreme Lord, and the material world is said to comprise one-fourth of His energy, but no one can understand what this three-fourths is, since even this material universe, which comprises only one-fourth of His energy, cannot be described. Trying to convey to Sanatana Gosvami something of the extent of one-fourth of Krishna's energy, Caitanya Mahaprabhu cited an incident from Srimad-Bhagavatam in which Brahma, the lord of the universe, came to see Krishna at Dvaraka. When Brahma approached Krishna, the doorman informed Krishna that Brahma had arrived to see Him. Upon hearing this, Krishna inquired as to which Brahma had come, and the doorman returned to Brahma and asked, "Which Brahma are you? Krishna has asked."

Brahma was struck with wonder. Why did Krishna ask such a question? He informed the doorman, "Please tell Him that Brahma, who is the father of the four Kumaras and who has four heads, has come to see Him."

The doorman informed Krishna and then asked Brahma inside. Brahma offered his obeisances unto the lotus feet of Krishna, and after receiving him with all honor, Krishna inquired about the purpose of his visit.

"I shall tell You of my purpose in coming here," Lord Brahma replied, "but first I have a doubt which I ask You to kindly remove. Your doorman told me that You asked which Brahma has come to see You. May I inquire if there are other Brahmas besides me?"

Upon hearing this, Krishna smiled and at once called for many Brahmas from many universes. The four-headed Brahma then saw many other Brahmas coming to see Krishna and to offer their respects. Some of them had ten heads, some had twenty, some had a hundred and some even had a million heads. Indeed, the four-headed Brahma could not even count the Brahmas who were coming to offer their obeisances to Krishna. Krishna then called many other demigods from various universes, and they all came to offer their respects to the Lord. Upon seeing this wonderful exhibition, the four-headed Brahma became nervous and began to think of himself as no more than a mosquito in the midst of many elephants. Since so many demigods were offering obeisances unto the lotus feet of Krishna, Brahma concluded that the unlimited potency of Krishna could not be estimated. All the helmets of the various demigods and Brahmas shone brightly in the great assembly, and the prayers of the demigods made a great sound.

"Dear Lord," the demigods said, "it is Your great mercy that You have called us to see You. Is there any particular order? If so, we will carry it out at once."

"There is nothing especially required of you," Lord Krishna replied. "I only wanted to see you together at one time. I offer My blessing to you. Don't fear the demons."

"By Your mercy, everything is all right," they all replied. "There are no disturbances at present, for by Your incarnation everything inauspicious is vanquished."

As each of the Brahmas saw Krishna, each thought that He was only within his universe. After this incident, Krishna wished all the Brahmas farewell, and after offering respects to Him, they returned to their respective universes. Upon seeing this, the four-headed Brahma at once fell down at the feet of Krishna and said, "What I thought about You at first was all nonsensical. Everyone may say that they know You in perfection, but as far as I am concerned, I cannot begin to conceive how great You are. You are beyond my conception and understanding."

"This particular universe is only four thousand million miles broad," Krishna then informed him, "but there are many millions and billions of universes which are far, far greater than this one. Some of these are many trillions of miles broad, and all these universes require strong Brahmas, not just four-headed." Krishna further informed Brahma, "This material creation is only a quarter manifestation of My creative potency. Three quarters of My creative potency is in the spiritual kingdom."

After offering obeisances, the four-headed Brahma parted from Krishna, and he could understand the meaning of the Lord's "three-quarters energy."

[Guest guest]

 

Ok.. I'm trying to make sense of all this.. Krishna is an Incarnation of Vishnu but is the Supreme personality of the God Head.. Brahmans claim Brahma is the supreme.. Shiavism claims Shiva is the supreme. I do not even know the differences between these.. Morality and basic themes such as chant a mantra all seems pretty much the same thing just different words and different faces. I've been thinking about which sect is the best for me.. I decided to go with Krishna simply because it was Krishna who revealed himself to me and showed me compassion and love.. Not the other Gods..

 

Since you have made up your mind, what is your question?

[Beggar 0]

Srila B. R. Sridhar Maharaj:

"...Prahlada Maharaja has been accepted as the basis of suddha-bhakti, the beginning of pure devotional service, because he is situated in santa rasa, or devotional service in neutrality. Above that there is dasya rasa, love of God in servitude, as shown by Hanuman, and above that there is sakhya rasa, or the mood of friendship. That is exemplified by the Pandavas. Uddhava is somewhat sakhya, connecting with vatsalya, parental love, and madhurya conjugal love. In this way we can trace the progressive development of devotion.

Our close adherence to Krsna develops in this way to Vrndavana. The acme of devotional service is found there. In the conversation between Ramananda Raya and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu we find it mentioned that Radharani's devotional service is categorically higher than that of the gopis (tebhyas tah pasu-pala-pankaja-drsas tabhyo 'pi sa radhika). The kind of serving spirit we find there is unaccountable and inconceivable.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu came with that quality of adherence to the truth: unconditional surrender. He came seeking that fortune of serving the truth. If we can seek such a higher type of existence, we may consider ourselves most fortunate.

Self-surrender is the very basis of our highest fortune. We cannot but surrender ourselves to whatever beautiful and valuable thing we have come across. Our appreciation for any higher thing is shown by the degree of our surrender to that. So, we can measure the quality of the truth we are connected with only by the intensity of our surrender."

[Tirisilex 0]

My Question is how do they relate exactly? What are each of their qualities.. How do they Differ?

[Tirisilex 0]

Sooo... Krishna is not an incarnation of Vishnu?

[Guest guest]

 

Sooo... Krishna is not an incarnation of Vishnu?

 

For Gaudiya Vaishnavas - No

For the rest of the world - Yes

 

Vishnu and Shiva are viewed by their respective followers as the Supreme power. That way, there is no difference between the two. Vishnu comes from the Vedas. Shiva does not appear in the Vedas, but is mapped to Rudra in the Vedas. Brahma and avatars of Vishnu (Rama, Krishna and others) do not appear in the Vedas.

 

Brahma is not worshipped as the above two. Brahma was probably created as a personal version of the impersonal Brahman mentioned in the Vedas as the source of everything.

[Guest guest]

Canto 1: Creation Chapter 3: Kṛṣṇa Is the Source of All Incarnations

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.2

yasyāmbhasi śayānasya

yoga-nidrāḿ vitanvataḥ

nābhi-hradāmbujād āsīd

brahmā viśva-sṛjāḿ patiḥ

SYNONYMS

yasya — whose; ambhasi — in the water; śayānasya — lying down; yoga-nidrām — sleeping in meditation; vitanvataḥ — ministering; nābhi — navel; hrada — out of the lake; ambujāt — from the lotus; āsīt — was manifested; brahmā — the grandfather of the living beings; viśva — the universe; sṛjām — the engineers; patiḥ — master.

TRANSLATION

A part of the puruṣa lies down within the water of the universe, from the navel lake of His body sprouts a lotus stem, and from the lotus flower atop this stem, Brahmā, the master of all engineers in the universe, becomes manifest.

PURPORT

The first puruṣa is the Kāraṇodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. From His skin holes innumerable universes have sprung up. In each and every universe, the puruṣa enters as the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. He is lying within the half of the universe which is full with the water of His body. And from the navel of Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu has sprung the stem of the lotus flower, the birthplace of Brahmā, who is the father of all living beings and the master of all the demigod engineers engaged in the perfect design and working of the universal order. Within the stem of the lotus there are fourteen divisions of planetary systems, and the earthly planets are situated in the middle. Upwards there are other, better planetary systems, and the topmost system is called Brahmaloka or Satyaloka. Downwards from the earthly planetary system there are seven lower planetary systems inhabited by the asuras and similar other materialistic living beings.

From Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu there is expansion of the Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, who is the collective Paramātmā of all living beings. He is called Hari, and from Him all incarnations within the universe are expanded.

Therefore, the conclusion is that the puruṣa-avatāra is manifested in three features — first the Kāraṇodakaśāyī who creates aggregate material ingredients in the mahat-tattva, second the Garbhodakaśāyī who enters in each and every universe, and third the Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu who is the Paramātmā of every material object, organic or inorganic. One who knows these plenary features of the Personality of Godhead knows Godhead properly, and thus the knower becomes freed from the material conditions of birth, death, old age and disease, as it is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā, In this śloka the subject matter of Mahā-Viṣṇu is summarized. The Mahā-Viṣṇu lies down in some part of the spiritual sky by His own free will. Thus He lies on the ocean of kāraṇa, from where He glances over His material nature, and the mahat-tattva is at once created. Thus electrified by the power of the Lord, the material nature at once creates innumerable universes, just as in due course a tree decorates itself with innumerable grown fruits. The seed of the tree is sown by the cultivator, and the tree or creeper in due course becomes manifested with so many fruits. Nothing can take place without a cause. The Kāraṇa Ocean is therefore called the Causal Ocean. Kāraṇa means "causal." We should not foolishly accept the atheistic theory of creation. The description of the atheists is given in the Bhagavad-gītā. The atheist does not believe in the creator, but he cannot give a good theory to explain the creation. Material nature has no power to create without the power of the puruṣa, just as a prakṛti, or woman, cannot produce a child without the connection of a puruṣa, or man. The puruṣa impregnates, and the prakṛti delivers. We should not expect milk from the fleshy bags on the neck of a goat, although they look like breastly nipples. Similarly, we should not expect any creative power from the material ingredients; we must believe in the power of the puruṣa, who impregnates prakṛti, or nature. Because the Lord wished to lie down in meditation, the material energy created innumerable universes at once, in each of them the Lord lay down, and thus all the planets and the different paraphernalia were created at once by the will of the Lord. The Lord has unlimited potencies, and thus He can act as He likes by perfect planning, although personally He has nothing to do. No one is greater than or equal to Him. That is the verdict of the Vedas.

[Guest guest]

Congratulations! You are attracted to Lord Krishna and feel an affinity towards Him. Now get the books and the teachings of Lord Krishna and study them. They are all online.

 

Some say Shiva came first, some say Krishna came first. If you are attracted to that name Krish-na then why not go for it? Lord Chaitanya said God has hundreds and millions of names. Each name describes a different attribute.

 

The main thing is just be a good person: try to follow the things that you are recommended to do and are not recommended to do in the tradition that attracts you. Do you have any temple or satsang of the tradition you are attracted to near you?

 

In regards your questions: how do they relate, how do they differ? Is not a beauty pageant. In your first post you said you decide on Krishna. So I do not want to destroy your faith in Krsna and make you doubt him.

 

Also is a very complex and sophisticated religion Hinduism. The first thing is God is not a person like us. Not a material body. And He is so great. Shiva is so great, Krishna is so great. Almost is beyond our comprehension how great.

 

Also each school will tell you something different. I don't want to confuse you. Also I don't want to get into argument with anyone. Just google the names of each Deity you mentioned and will give you enough information to study for lifetimes. Many saints wrote books, poems, philosophy about each path: Shaivism if you follow Shiva, Vaishnavism if you follow Krsna.

 

And many many smart people have been talking about it ever since. With all respect to the many great souls this forum, what can we say that has not been said before and better than we could by the saints? Why not study directly the saints' words? Or directly study the scriptures?

 

In case you still need some small knowledge: like small road map. There is an eternal religion or Sanatana Dharma. Basically every living being in entire universe is living it. For lack of better word some foreigners called it Hinduism because the people on other side of Sind River are the world experts in it.

 

Within Hinduism there are four main branches: Shavite, Shakti, Smarta, and Vaishnava. Within each branch so many different schools. The scriptures used as reference point for all are the Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, and Agamas.

 

It is very beautiful religion, the Sanatana Dharma. Go slowly and with care. You are treading the paths of the saints. If your heart chooses Krsna then study the words of Krsna and what the saints of Krsna said. So many literatures you can spend lifetimes upon lifetime to get all of the knowledge.

 

Is not like Christianity you have to pledge allegiance to the flag and declare "I accept Jesus." Already everyone is part of the Sanatana Dharma.

You don't have to declare "I accept Krsna" and then by the way who is Krsna and how is He different?

 

In Hinduism, either one of the four branches has some basic beliefs: God cannot take Himself out of you. He is in your heart. Therefore you don't have to say, "I believe in God" because God believes in you. He lives in your heart with you. This feature is called Param atma. So you don't need to rush, make pledge, and so on. Always He has been with you from when your soul was first created. He loves you so much from day one.

 

Another belief of all Hindus whatever sect or branch is God is in everything everywhere. That is called Brahman. He permeates everything. He is is every atom and within all of the empty spaces between nucleus and electrons and neutrons. God is everywhere. Is so beautiful.

 

So God is with you now and always has been. And He is everywhere and in everything. So just go slow to discover next step. The next step in Bhagavan. God exists in His Special World also in a purely spiritual body of sat chit ananda. But if you rush and say you know all about it but all you know is intellectual understanding of it, then you might hurt some people's feelings by saying the wrong things. Better to not speak of it until you have realized it.

 

And even some have realized it, was only for a few seconds or a few minutes or a few hours or a few days or a few years. Some their whole life of course.

Is kind of like if you are in kindergarten telling everyone you understand Unified Theory of Physics. Yah right. Some people like to insist what they know is true but maybe they are bluffing you.

 

Is very tricky because we do not know who has a big hoax going and who is telling the Truth if we just look to whose story is correct theory. So my suggestion is go slow and see who has the best behavior of what in your opinion with your best understanding you have now, who is behaving nicely. I mean if someone claims they know something about God they would probably be nice person and have nice ideas.

 

Nice ideas that everyone can agree on in all cultures are called Universal Concepts. Well good luck to you and congratulations your decision. There are many nice online temples you can see the Deity and have darshan. There are many online scriptures and many online music of bhajans, glorification of Krsna. Be happy Krsna loves Shiva and Brahma and if you get to know Krsna you will know them all in due course of time. Pranams.

[Tirisilex 0]

The nearest place for me to join with like minded people is in Boston.. Thats about a 2 and half hour drive from me.

[Tirisilex 0]

There are a number of philosophical differences between Gaudiya Vaishnava theology and that of other Vaishnava groups, although from a general perspective their core beliefs are virtually identical. The main points of difference are:

Krishna is seen as the original form of God, the source of Vishnu and not His avatar.

This teaching - shared by Nimbarka and Vallabha sampradayas and opposed by Ramanuja and Madhva - is based most prominently on Bhagavata Purana 1.3.28 (krsnas tu bhagavan svayam), the most important Purana for Gaudiya Vaishnavas, and elaborated on by Jiva Gosvami (one of Six Gosvamis of Vrindavan) in his Krishna sandarbha.

Sri Radha is the adi Shakti of Krishna, the source of all other shaktis including Lakshmi Devi and Durga Devi.

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is the latest incarnation of Krishna to descend in this yuga (age). (Kalki comes in the yuga sandhya at its end.)

Gaudiya Vaishnava Theology is prominently expounded by Jiva Gosvami in his Sat-sandarbhas, six elaborate treatises on various aspects of God. Other prominent Gaudiya Vaishnava theologians are his uncles, Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami, Visvanatha Chakravarti and Baladeva Vidyabhushana, author of Govinda Bhashya, a famous commentary on Vedanta Sutra.

 

This Article from Wikipedia helped me understand it better.

[niche 0]

hi,

 

my humble advice to mr. Tirisilex .... please be very careful of what you read .

particularly if internet is going to be your prime source of information.

it is very important to stick to one direction and understand it thoroughly before comparing or studying others.

 

it is ofcourse but natural that you're attracted to Krishna... as HE is ALL attractive. also consider yourself lucky..

 

but just be careful........if you are new and you stick to these forums here...you might end up wondering for long ,pulled between shiva and krishna's supremacy..... which somehow seems the most beloved SPIRITUAL discussion (argument) here.

 

 

all the best

pray to radharani if its krishna you feel for

 

hare krishna !!

niche !

[gHari 0]

MAlatI: SwamijI, I don't understand when you say that you worship KRSNa or ViSNu. I don't understand if KRSNa is ViSNu or ViSNu is KRSNa.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes. KRSNa... There are several categories of living entities. KRSNa is also living entity. ViSNu is also living entity. You are also living entity. Lord Siva is also living entity. Every one of us. But there are categories. Just like in your Montreal city, there are hundreds of millions of people. But someone's status is higher than the others. Similarly, KRSNa is the original living entity. Govindam Adi-puruSam. Adi-puruSam means original. And from Him everything has expanded. Eko bahu zyAma. He has expanded Himself in many. So some of them are in the ViSNu category. The ViSNu category means they are almost equal to KRSNa. It is estimated the ViSNu categories, They have ninety-four percent opulence of KRSNa. And the next category is Siva category. The Siva category has eighty-four percent of all the opulence of KRSNa. And the next category is BrahmA category, BrahmA. BrahmA category means living entities, when they are perfect, they can obtain seventy-eight percent of the opulence of KRSNa. So KRSNa is cent percent, ViSNu or NArAyaNa is ninety-four percent, Lord Siva is eighty-four percent, and we, in our perfection, we are seventy-eight percent. Is that clear?

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/1/3/28/en

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/4/1/15/en

 

http://vedabase.net/nod/21/en

[Guest guest]

If you live too far from a temple or satsang here is a website that has many Indian temples on it and it explains about each one. Maybe it will be fun for you to visit them online:

 

www dot indiantemples dot com

 

 

 

Here is a temple that has sloka of the day recited aloud:

 

www dot tirumala dot org

 

 

 

Here is a website has link to teachings of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami and it has a section of bhajans for you to listen to; if you love Krsna then it has Radhe Krsna bhajans for you:

 

www dot geetatemple dot net

 

 

Have fun! So many unlimited nectar on the internet.