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Guruvani

His Natural Spiritual Master

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I think you can relate just fine. The principle is simple - look for the company of advanced vaishnavas. Who is advanced? - that's pretty simple too - who is always chanting, doesn't waste time, enthused to hear about Krsna and his various incarnations, etc. This is clearly spelled out in our scriptures so we know what to look for in the character and activities of those we associate with. If we are serious about advancing we will choose our sanga carefully and seek to associate with those who can help us.

 

The neophyte stage isn't just a few years or months when one decides to join a mission or has an initial impetus to take up the spiritual path. As devotees we should be careful to understand the various steps and try to be honest and accurate in assessing where we are in terms of our own personal attainment. Shraddha, Sadhu Sanga, Bhajana kriya, anartha nivritti, nistha, etc. The neophyte stage can last life times. The fact that we met someone who inspired us and who has devotion isn't enough - it has to lead us to practical action in our own lives. The revolution in our own minds must continue until Sri Guru and Gauranga have conquered all corners and taken complete possession.

 

Devotion is very rare and as seekers of devotion we should always be keen and on the look out for those who have it. Those who have it can share it with us - that is the value of association with Sadhus

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I'm aghast by all this horrendous Vaisnava-aparadha on the part of Guruvani. All of the disciples of Prabhupada Srila Sarasvati Thakura are my gurus, as are their qualified disiples, and this includes the vastly learned Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja. Besides, if closeness to one's guru is a benchmark to go by in this discussion, then it is Nitya-lila Pravista Om Visnupada 108 Srila Bhaktivilasa Tirtha Maharaja who should be considered the rightful successor to Prabhupada Srila Sarasvati Thakura, since ALL of the senior disciples of our Parama-Gurudeva admit that Pujyapada Tirtha Maharaja was his dearest and most beloved disciple, which is why they appointed him as successor acarya following Srila Prabhupada's divine disappearance post 1937 when there was the entire Ananta Vasudeva episode. Everyone in his right mind recognises Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's immense contribution to the Sarasvata parampara. However, in spite of hearsay, there was NEVER any command from Srila Sarasvati Thakura to ANY of his disciples to write or translate books of their own. Anyone who disagrees with this should do some serious, solid research of their own into the history of the Gaudiya Matha before making assertions which would be dismissed out-of-hand in any court of law.

 

The Acarya is self-effulgent. If he humbly deems himself qualified to write and preach, then that can only mean that he has his guru's approval, even if the latter is no more physically present. Srila Narayana Maharaja was born in a Vaisnava family, and took sannyasa whilst he was still in his twenties. He has given his entire life to our sampradaya, and any objective reader who reads his nectarian publications can only develop reverence for his great personality. He is the sannyasa Godbrother of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, whose own sannsaya guru is Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Maharaja, the diksa-guru of Narayana Maharaja. Further, Prapujyacarana Srila Kesava Maharaja in turn is the sannyasa disciple of Parama-pujyapada Srila Bhaktiraksaka Sridhara Maharaja. We are all therefore one big family, and the golden thread which binds us all begins with Prabhupada Srila Sarasvati Thakura and ends with Mahaprabhu/Krsna Himself. Therefore, instead of foolishly trying to split hairs by engaging in grievous offenses against souls who are incomparably more advanced than ourselves, why not see the good in others and the bad in our own selves and try acting accordingly. I believe some introspection is highly required for many on this forum, myself included of course.

 

I am posting a most sweet and wonderful write-up by His Grace Hrsikesananda Prabhu down below. I was genuinely moved when I went through it. I hope that others who read the article feel equally inspired by such a true display of Vaisnava spirit.

 

Here it goes:

 

 

"Vande Gurun" Means More Than One

 

By Richard Shaw Brown

 

Dear Krsna-bhakta's,

 

When I first joined Srila Bhakti Hrdaya Vana Maharaj in Vrindavan during Jan. '68, I was taught that all the Gaudiya Math acaryas (his Godbrothers) were equally great and I loved them and all of their disciples. It didn't matter what Matha. I went with Vana Maharaj and visited many of his Godbrothers including B.V. Tirtha Maharaj, Sridhar Maharaj, Madhava Maharaj, etc. I saw the love and respect they shared with Vana Maharaj. I saw with my own eyes Vana Maharaj and Sridhar Maharaj weeping as they embraced each other. And I saw all the disciples of Vana Maharaj mixing with those of Tirtha Maharaj, Madhava Maharaj, Ashram Maharaj, Sridhar Maharaj, etc., all respecting and loving each other like the best of family.

 

The concept of "my Guru Maharaj is better than yours" just didn't exist at all. The different devotees mixed happily and loved and respected each other as well as their different Gurudeva's. All was pakka seva, bhajan, vairagya, vidya and humility. All was pure, expert, genuine and mature Krsna consciousness with divine intimate personal exchanges of love and affection.

 

 

B U T...Then I met some ISKCON devotees who burst my blissful bubble. They informed me about material duality, that I was a traitor. Us/them. ISKCON v/s the evil Gaudiya Math. This offensive association finally led to me offending my own great well-wisher and honorable Diksa-Siksa Gurudeva, Srila Vana Maharaj and caused me to leave him to join forces with the so-called "good guys," viz., ISKCON. That was my spiritual downfall. I now look back and realize that my years in Sri Gaudiya Matha were real, bona fide Krsna Consciousness and that's what is missing in ISKCON*.

 

 

I believe that the downfall of ISKCON may be caused by this most offensive thinking and acting against BSSP's great disciples and our mother-faith, Sri Gaudiya Math. ISKCON has made Sri Gaudiya Sampradaya and Sri Hari-Nam the laughing stock of the entire world and "Hare Krishna" is now considered to be in the same category as the Moonies, Children of God and other lunatic personality cults.

 

 

In Sri CC paramahansa Srila Kaviraj Goswami starts with these first two Sanskrit words: "Vande gurun"---obeisance's to all my Gurus**. There will be our Hari Nam Guru who empowered us to chant the Maha-Mantra; there will be the Diksa Guru, who may not be the same manifestation of "Guru-tattva" as our Hari Nam Guru; there will also be many other Gurus in our lives who will be other manifestations of the one Guru-tattva; and there will be antaryami Guru who is Paramatma within our hearts. All these manifestations of Guru-tattva will be significant in our spiritual journey back to Godhead.

 

 

A good example is Srila B.V. Narayan Maharaj who helped give Srila Prabhupada his sannyas and who buried*** HDG for us. ISKCON devotees don't know that much about Vaisnavism because Prabhupada DID NOT reveal everything and every detail before his departure. But there is not only one manifestation of Guru-tattva; CC begins with the words "Vande gurun," which clearly specifies more than one manifestation of Guru-tattva. Even HDG advised us to take help from his Godbrothers like Sripad Sridara Maharaj, and also Prabhupada's sannyas Godbrother, Srila Narayana Maharaj. Since 1968 I have been in awe of Narayana Maharaj's good qualities and vast learning. He was born a Gaudiya Vaisnava and initiated in the line of BSSP. He has never fallen down nor ever left his strict vows during his long and surrendered lifetime. It stands to reason that after so long he has realized his eternal form or svarupa. So why doubt him? Prabhupada never doubted him.

 

 

But the terrible truth is that at present Srila Bhakti Vedanta Narayana Maharaj is not allowed to speak in any ISKCON (neophyte) center and he is roundly condemned as a heretic by the GBC. The reason given by the GBC is that "he is stealing OUR men!!!" Personally I am no body's or no group's man; I belong to the vast circle of Gaudiya Vaisnavas who are all my Gurus, especially the pure personalities whom Krsna has kindly brought me in touch with. It is material nonsense when a spiritual group thinks they are losing "their men." In my karmi business if another business man steals one of my expert staff members then I will become angry and say, "he has stolen my employee." But that is material life not spiritual life! Spiritual life means some how or other fixing up our minds on Krsna. And the goal is "svarupa siddhi" or self-realization, not material world domination.

 

 

For ISKCON to be so materialistic is a sign of serious neophyte status. And for ISKCON to ban Narayana Maharaj is a sin and serious aparadha. Why not accept that HDG is still teaching us in another form through Narayana Maharaj and other advanced and potentially self-realized Vaisnava siksa-gurus?

 

 

A while back some of the long-time ISKCON devotees approached Narayana Maharaj for advanced guidance; but ISKCON's GBC got paranoid that Narayan Maharaj will "steal our men." I say WHOSE MEN? Narayan Maharaj is doing the same as HDG by helping us progress on the Krsna-bhakti-marga. That is the goal, not some limited material group.

 

 

But the ISKCON devotees turned against Narayana Maharaj, Prabhupada's own recommended siksa guru, just to "save [their] material skin" (a 1973 Tamala Krsna Goswami quote to me when I had to flee India) and protect their goal of cornering the world market in collection of money and followers. In other words they offended Srila Narayan Maharaj just to protect their 'material livelihood'.

 

 

I'm certain that HDG would want us to further our sadhana with the kind help of other great devotees like his dear friend Srila Narayana Maharaj who is truly an expert in all facets of Gaudiya Vaisnava life. Prabhupada would never condone this offense against a leading and very advanced Gaudiya Vaisnava who is his own close friend and ISKCON's ever-well wisher.

 

 

And this is not just about Narayana Maharaj. We must respect and offer obeisance's to all Prabhupada's Godbrothers, past and present, as well as their disciples. We are all one family and the goal is not to build up some separatist personality cult on the material platform; the goal is to some how or other fix up our minds on Krsna by taking help from all the different manifestations of our own unique guru-tattva. ISKCON must broaden it's scope and embrace all the members of the Gaudiya

 

Vaisnava family, especially in the line of Prabhupada Srila Sarasvati Thakura. Our goal is Krsna consciousness, not expanding ISKCON's material domination. As my father calls such persons: "material empire builders."

 

 

Respectfully

Hrsikesananda das

 

*Of course, in retrospect, I realize that the defect was in me. That is, I left bona fide, mature Krsna consciousness to associate with a group of kanistha offenders.

 

 

**Vande gurun is also sung in the guru-vandana prayers every morning in all Gaudiya missions as it was started by our great Param-Gurudev.

 

 

***Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj interred the divine body of Srila Prabhupada into his vapu samadhi tomb for the benefit of ISKCON, and he wrote the samadhi mantra on the chest of his divine body. Tradition has it that whoever writes that mantra on the chest of the guru in his samadhi tomb, he shall be his successor! Even in courts of law [in India], when successor disputes occur, the law rules in favor of the party who interred the body into the samadhi tomb. But what was the example of Srila Narayan Maharaj?---he went to court after ACBSP's disappearance, not to claim his right as successor, but in order to defend ISKCON against Srila Prabhupada's gross karmi family members who were (and still are) making claims upon ISKCON's assets! But the ingrate ISKCON GBC have now banned Srila Narayan Maharaj from any ISKCON temple.

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Anyway, this topic is about the natural spiritual master.

It's not about formal diksha gurus that have become a fad around the Hare Krishna movement.

 

We are trying to focus on how to recognize the natural spiritual master, and not get caught up in guru shopping for some formal diksha guru to stroke one's false prestige.

 

If we really follow the instructions of Mahaprabhu, all this guru shopping would stop and devotees would be allowed accept the natural spiritual master and stop all this guru shopping.

 

Guru shoppers are by default going to get cheated.

 

The guru should be as plain as day.

If you need to shop around for a guru, then you have already missed him.

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***Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj interred the divine body of Srila Prabhupada into his vapu samadhi tomb for the benefit of ISKCON, and he wrote the samadhi mantra on the chest of his divine body. Tradition has it that whoever writes that mantra on the chest of the guru in his samadhi tomb, he shall be his successor! Even in courts of law [in India], when successor disputes occur, the law rules in favor of the party who interred the body into the samadhi tomb. But what was the example of Srila Narayan Maharaj?---he went to court after ACBSP's disappearance, not to claim his right as successor, but in order to defend ISKCON against Srila Prabhupada's gross karmi family members who were (and still are) making claims upon ISKCON's assets! But the ingrate ISKCON GBC have now banned Srila Narayan Maharaj from any ISKCON temple.

 

And it is this kind of ridiculous propaganda that has driven an eternal wedge between ISKCON and the camp of Narayana Maharaja.

 

He will never be the successor to Srila Prabhupada and to even advocate such an idea is totally futile and counter-productive to the ambitions of his followers to be somehow accomodated in the greater-ISKCON society.

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Guruvani Prabhu,

 

I prefer to form my views with the help of hard, proven facts, not hearsay. And my opinion of Bhaktivilasa Tirtha Maharaja is based upon the practically irrefutable fact that he was the most beloved of Prabhupada Sarasvati Thakura amongst all the disciples. I have read enough of Gaudiya Matha history to know that that is basically true. I don't go around shopping for gurus, but prefer to take instructions from any good devotee who crosses my path. Of course, one will feel more affinity for one's "natural guru" as you put it, but respect should be given to all teachers, the hari-nama guru, diksa guru and siksa gurus. These may be one person or several different ones. You are entitled to your point of view of course, but I have so much more to achieve in my life, both materially and spiritually, that I prefer not to expend my useful inner resources faultfinding; I'd much rather surmount my own defects and make progress towards the supreme destination

 

Regards

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And it is this kind of ridiculous propaganda that has driven an eternal wedge between ISKCON and the camp of Narayana Maharaja.

 

He will never be the successor to Srila Prabhupada and to even advocate such an idea is totally futile and counter-productive to the ambitions of his followers to be somehow accomodated in the greater-ISKCON society.

Srila Narayana Maharaja is Srila Prabhupada's successor for those who accept him as such. Such an outlook is based on faith, alone. In a sense to push Narayana Maharaja, as such, is to make propaganda, if it is given in a fanatical way. But any neutral person will see that Vikram Ramsundar Prabhu is not writing like such a fanatic. But Guruvani is using language to inflame and he is acting as a fanatic of the anti-party. Such fanaticism invariably leads to Vaisnava aparadha.

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Srila Narayana Maharaja is Srila Prabhupada's successor for those who accept him as such. Such an outlook is based on faith, alone. In a sense to push Narayana Maharaja, as such, is to make propaganda, if it is given in a fanatical way. But any neutral person will see that Vikram Ramsundar Prabhu is not writing like such a fanatic. But Guruvani is using language to inflame and he is acting as a fanatic of the anti-party. Such fanaticism invariably leads to Vaisnava aparadha.

Well, Narayana Maharaja was not in the disciplic succession of Srila Prabhupada which follows from Saraswata Thakur to Srila Prabhupada to the disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Personally, I think it is impossible for someone who is not in the picture of Srila Prabhupada's succession to become his successor.

 

To propose that Srila Prabhupada would reject all his own disciples who helped him accomplish his mission, and appoint someone who refused numerous appeals to help him, is laughable if you ask me.

 

I think the traditional way is that a disciple become the successor to the acharya.

 

How can you be successor if you are not in his succession?

 

Narayana Maharaja can be an acharya in his own right without being a successor to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Drawing mantras on a corpse with clay hardly makes anyone the successor of an acharya.

 

It's obvious that none of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada knew how to perform the funeral ceremony.

 

Being the funeral director for the funeral ceremony of Srila Prabhupada does not make one a successor to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada never breathed a word about him being successor.

 

If Srila Prabhupada wanted Narayana Maharaja to be his successor he would have said so.

Otherwise, it's just a joke for the people to be trying to convince the leaders of ISKCON that Narayana Maharaja is the successor to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Narayana Maharaja was not even a ritvik for Srila Prabhupada.

So, I don't see how he is going then jump over all the empowered and appointed representatives of Srila Prabhupada that had been representing him for several years in ISKCON.

 

This idea of the funeral director becoming the successor is one of the most ridiculous propositions that have ever come from the camp of Narayana Maharaja.

 

You can't be a successor if you aren't a disciple first.

 

I am not even sure that Narayana Maharaja was considered the successor to his own guru, much less Srila Prabhupada.

 

I have not seen anything in the tradition where a sannyasi has been the successor to his own guru and then an acharya of an institution that he never had any affiilation with.

 

It's kinda bizarre that anyone could say that Narayana Maharaja would be brought in out of nowhere to be the acharya of ISKCON when during the Prabhupada era in ISKCON Narayana Maharaja was nowhere to be found and for the most part amongst the class of Gaudiya Math people that Srila Prabhupada forbade his disciples to associate with.

 

Until it came time for the funeral, Narayana Maharaja was a zero as far as ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada's guidance was concerned.

 

This is not denigrating him, as I see him as very great in his own right.

 

It's just that I don't see how anyone could propose with a straight face that he is the successor to Srila Prabhupada.

 

He can be an acharya in his own right without being the successor to Srila Prabhupada.

He doesn't have to be the successor to Srila Prabhupada to be an acharya or a guru.

 

I don't see why the two have to be linked.

I think it is stupid.

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Well, Narayana Maharaja was not in the disciplic succession of Srila Prabhupada which follows from Saraswata Thakur to Srila Prabhupada to the disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Personally, I think it is impossible for someone who is not in the picture of Srila Prabhupada's succession to become his successor.

 

 

 

 

 

We are slaves of the truth. We are beggars for the pure current of truth that is constantly flowing: the fresh current. We are not charmed by any formality. I will bow down my head wherever I find the river of nectar coming down to me. When one is conscious that the Absolute Truth is descending to him from the highest domain, he will think, "I must surrender myself here."

Mahaprabhu says to Ramananda Raya, kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya, yei krsna-tattva vetta sei guru haya. dot_clear.gif"Wherever the truth appears, wherever the nectar of divine ecstasy descends, I shall offer myself as a slave. That is my direct concern." Whatever form it takes doesn't matter much; the form has some value, but if there is any conflict, the inner spirit of a thing should be given immense value over its external cover. Otherwise, if the spirit has gone away, and the bodily connection gets the upper hand, our so-called spiritual life becomes sahajiya,dot_clear.gif a cheap imitation.

When we are conscious of the real substance of Krsna consciousness, the real wealth we are receiving from our spiritual master, then our spiritual life cannot be sahajiyaism, dot_clear.gifimitationism. We must be aware enough to detect our guru's advice when we find it in another. One who is awake will see, "Here is my guru's advice, I find it here in this man. Somehow or other, it has come here. How, I do not know, but I see my guru's characteristics, his dealings, and behavior in this person." When we are able to recognize a thing for its intrinsic value, then, wherever we find it, we cannot neglect it.

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for me, I don't really have to find Srila Prabhupada in another great Vaishnava to appreciate him.

 

I didn't see Srila Prabhupada coming through Sridhar Maharaja, but I felt a lot of regard for him because he was sweet in his own way.

 

I don't have to find Prabhupada in another Vaishnava to appreciate them, because really every devotee is unique and relishable in their own way.

 

I certainly don't see Srila Prabhupada coming through Narayana Maharaja.

I didn't see Srila Prabhupada coming through Sridhar Maharaja either.

 

I don't think in that way.

 

I appreciate a devotee for his own unique sweetness.

 

I don't need to trace Srila Prabhupada in them to appreciate them.

 

Mainly, we need to trace genuine bhakti and devotion in a person to appreciate them.

 

They don't have to be of the same flavor or the same vein.

 

I taste two very different kinds of sweetness in Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

 

They are both sweet, but with their own unique flavor and mood.

 

For me it is not a matter of seeing Prabhupada in someone to appreciate them.

 

If I can detect a very high kind of devotion and a high level of realization in them then I appreciate them.

 

Unfortunately for me I guess, I have always found too much bitterness and sadhaka fanaticism in Narayana Maharaja to really relish his nature.

 

He has said many things that totally turned me off.

 

Srila Prabhupada said many things that turned-off some of his own disciples.

 

Some people find Prabhupada as rude and outragious - I don't feel that.

 

So, like Sridhar Maharaja has said, there is the tasting machine inside our hearts and each of us taste different devotees, gurus and acharyas differently according to some unknown inner nature that none of us can fully ever understand.

 

For me, Prabhupada could be coming from the group of Subal Sakha and Sridhar Maharaja could be coming from the camp of Rupa Manajari, but I relish them both.

 

I don't experience the same feeling in hearing from Sridhar Maharaja as I do hearing from Srila Prabhupada.

 

They don't have to be the same as far as I am concerned - they just both have to be naturally relishable.

 

Narayana Maharaja has always left a bad taste in my "tasting machine" but apparently there are many others who relish him very much.

 

I don't think I will ever be one of them, because I have read enough of his lectures to know that his words rub me the wrong way.

 

It's probably more my fault than his.

But, its just the nature of my own "tasting machine".

 

I am sure it has it's limitations and is not the perfect tasting machine.

 

But, it's not anything unique to Narayan Maharaja.

I am not a big fan of Govinda Maharaja either, though I do have to respect him and admire him for being the pet disciple of Sridhar Maharaja.

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Sometimes the mind blocks the tasting machine or filters what we are hearing through projection. Although on a higher level suddha bhaktas may be in different serving camps, on our lower level they are simply imploring us to wake up to the reality of Krsna Consciousness.

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Good comparison.

But, I don't think there is any comparison because I have never had any political agenda like the GBC has.

 

Politics don't sway me.

It's something more genuine than that.

 

I gave Narayana Maharaja a listen with an open heart.

He turned me off and there is nothing I can do about that.

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Good comparison.

But, I don't think there is any comparison because I have never had any political agenda like the GBC has.

 

Politics don't sway me.

It's something more genuine than that.

 

I gave Narayana Maharaja a listen with an open heart.

He turned me off and there is nothing I can do about that.

 

 

To me that is fair and I don't consider that Vaisnava-aparadha. I have always felt uneasy about Narayana Maharaja not because I even know anything about him but because it seems a lot of his followers insist that you have to become initiated by him or something in order to get any benefit from Krishna Consciousness and that doesn't seem to jive with things I have read by Prabhupada so that combined with Prabhupada's writings about avoiding his Godbrothers makes me naturally feel that something is off here but I could be wrong and I don't mean that as a personal attack on Narayana Maharaja because to be honest I don't know the first thing about him except for a few things I have read on the internet..

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I have always felt uneasy about Narayana Maharaja not because I even know anything about him but because it seems a lot of his followers insist that you have to become initiated by him or something in order to get any benefit from Krishna Consciousness...
Neophyte fanatics will be neophyte fanatics. Some are reasonable. Were there any such reasonable devotees around Prabhupada in the 70's. If there were then they were driven out, especially immediately after Prabhuapada's disappearence. During Prabhupada's time everyone preached that you had to be initiated by him to be Krsna Conscious. Do you think this only goes on in the Narayana Maharaja camp? That's why Guruvani is wrong, he's not revealing the pitfalls of the kannistha mentality but rather condeming a whole camp and their guru for the follies of their neophyte members. The same behaviour was good during Prabhupada's time, but now its evil and dark. This is the mentality. How to harmonize? It's all in Sri Guru and His Grace by Sridhar Maharaja.

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Srila Narayana maharaja is Srila Prabhupadas successor for those who see Him this way, thats right, I dont need any lectures, all I know is that He has got me back to Srila Prabhupada and for that I love Him.

After Iskcon gurus messed up big time and and my letter box became bombarded with bad news after bad news after bad news about certain Iskcon members, I developed a definite anti feeling against the ritvik proponents for the lenguage they used to make their points.

So then there was long time nothing, just trotting along going to iskcon temples, not getting much guidance at all. Then one day i heared one iskcon devotee bosting that he was on the warpath against Srila Narayana Maharaja , until then I never even heard his name. But I distictively felt very uneasy and something inside me told me not to pick up this offence.

A short while later, a friend of mine who previously also felt like a dry leaf spiritually came back from leicester where he had met Srila Narayana Maharaja and he seemed so refreshed, with new life inside and had a very sweet atmosphare around him, something i had not seen in anyone since my sankirtan days in germany in 1976, so that I thought Oh, i have to meet this person.

A short while later i indeed did and because iam not a sentimentalist, and also because i did not want to be cheated again I tried very hard to look for faults in the things he was saying, for any sahajiya mentality, anything against Srila Prabhupada, the vibrations around Him, the lot, anything others had warned me about and all I could experience was this...

 

Here is a genuine pure devotee, someone I can trust, someone who fullfils all the requirements of a true member of the sampradaya.

He is the disciple of Srila Kesava Maharaja who is a disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja "Srila Prabhupadas sanjas guru" and as such is connected to our disciplic succession and what I experienced on that and the days that followed, was a complete rejuvanation of my spiritual life and more.

 

So this is my experience and it is incredibly valuable for me, ever since then Srila Narayana maharaja has guided me and helped me to increase my love for Srila Prabhupada more then anyone has ever done before.

 

Countless of Srila Prabhupada disciples have experienced the same, there is no turning away from Srila Prabhupada, this does not exist, there is no downgrading of Srila Prabhupada, this also is non existent, there is only glorification and deep love for Srila Prabhupada, which has always been encouraged by Srila Narayana maharaja.

 

I dont want to read anything by those who say otherwise, but had no personal association with this great personality and even there may be a few who had personal association who say something, I rather hear from those who i can see have become more advanced by his association, because they are in a huge majority.

 

There also have been those who did not agree with Srila Prabhupada and left, but who is listening to them? Everyone agrees that they talk nonsense and so do the opponents of Srila Narayana maharaja

 

I certainly will not take part in any offence against any vaisnavas no matter what camp they are from and if i ever have done and i am certain that i have, I ask for fogiveness, offer my apologies and give humble obeisances to them and hope my spiritual future is okay.

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I am not denigrating anyone.

I am pointing out facts that Srila Prabhupada is the authorized agent of the Saraswata sampradaya to translate books and preach to the English speaking world.

As a matter of fact, I think I remember that Srila Saraswati Thakur mentioned that instruction in either the first or second time Srila Prabhupada saw him.

 

I don't know of any similar kind of profound calling assigned to any of the other disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

Srila Prabhupada has been authorized through the parampara system for his particular mission in sevice to the Lord.

 

I know that Srila Saraswati Thakur also wanted Sridhar Maharaja to preach in the western world and eventually Sridhar Maharaja was blessed to fulfill that instruction in a very profound way.

 

I don't know of any occasion or condition in which Narayana Maharaja was empowered through the disciplic succession to preach in the western world.

 

Srila Prabhupada asked him to "help my disciples".

 

It is quite obvious that Srila Prabhupada was asking him not to harm his mission and the assist ISKCON in being disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada never requested him to become a guru in ISKCON or any such thing. He asked him to "help my disciples".

 

I don't see any instruction or authority in that request that Narayana Maharaja take for himself disciples from out of the ISKCON paradigm.

 

If anyone can show anywhere or anytime Srila Prabhupada requested Narayana Maharaja to do anything aside from "help my disciples", then I would be glad to see it.

 

I would like to see any authority from Srila Prabhupada for Narayana Maharaja to accept disciples from out of the ISKCON society.

 

any takers?

 

I am waiting.......................................................

 

 

 

You think you have heard everything that has been discussed between these two great souls? Have you made a complete scientific study about these subjects?

 

First of all Srila Narayana Maharaja has been recognised by many as maha-bhagavata devotee of the Lord, What is relevant here, is that many real disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have met Srila Prabhupada, have done so and vouch for it.

 

I think it is correct to point out here that these are all devotees which in the beginning did not know what a pure devotee is, but have got their impressions about this from Srila Prabhupada Himself and this includes me also.

 

Now these same devotees have recognised that Srila Narayana maharaja also has these qualities displayed by Srila Prabhupada.

A different personality, different angles of approach and so on, but the same philosophy and a beautiful athmosphare arround Him plus more.

 

Such a pure devotee has nothing to do with social conventions and the restrictions imposed unto conditioned souls...have to go, continue later

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...Such a pure devotee has nothing to do with social conventions and the restrictions imposed unto conditioned souls...have to go, continue later

 

Sridhar Maharaja: "Krsna consciousness, the spiritual conception of the highest level, descends by flowing down from one level to the next, just as from the peak of a mountain, the Ganges flows in a zigzag way, from one peak to another. Sometimes the water of the Ganges mixes with the current of the river Saraswati. That water is not to be considered Ganges water. When the water of the Saraswati joins the current of the Ganges, it is considered to be Ganges water. When the two rivers meet, the water that flows away from the Ganges is not the Ganges; but when the Saraswati's waters enter into the current of the Ganges, it becomes the Ganges. That water will purify us, whatever its point of origin may have been. There is a saying that whatever water is deep within the current of the Ganges riverbed, is the real Ganges water. That water will purify us, whatever its point of origin may have been.

The purifying potency of the water has nothing to do with the water we can feel and see. What can we see with our physical eyes? The current of the Ganges is pure. When the spirit and sanction is there, it is a living thing, and can purify everyone."

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You think you have heard everything that has been discussed between these two great souls? Have you made a complete scientific study about these subjects?

 

First of all Srila Narayana Maharaja has been recognised by many as maha-bhagavata devotee of the Lord, What is relevant here, is that many real disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have met Srila Prabhupada, have done so and vouch for it.

 

I think it is correct to point out here that these are all devotees which in the beginning did not know what a pure devotee is, but have got their impressions about this from Srila Prabhupada Himself and this includes me also.

 

Now these same devotees have recognised that Srila Narayana maharaja also has these qualities displayed by Srila Prabhupada.

A different personality, different angles of approach and so on, but the same philosophy and a beautiful athmosphare arround Him plus more.

 

Such a pure devotee has nothing to do with social conventions and the restrictions imposed unto conditioned souls...have to go, continue later

For myself, I have been on this forum 4 years and I have had my belly full of arguing and debating with the followers of Narayana Maharaja.

 

I don't think anyone has been converted to the other side in all these arguments and debates that have gone on.

 

It's an excercise in futility.

 

Personally, I think Srila Prabhupada wanted to dismantle ISKCON after his passing and I think he saw Narayana Maharaja as the man for the job.

 

If it weren't for the childish and fanatic mentality of his followers to force Narayana Maharaja on ISKCON and the Krishna consciousness movement, I think Narayana Maharaja would have enjoyed immense success beyond his already noteworthy preaching accomplishments.

 

If the followers of Narayana Maharaja had been humble and gentle and just taking a back seat with their own guru and been happy with that, then I think lot more devotees would have been drawn to him.

 

I think that fanatic followers of Narayana Maharaja who came on forums years ago and have tried to cram him down the throats of everyone have done the greatest disservice to him.

 

If they would have just been happy to have a seperate society from ISKCON and not tired to impose Narayana Maharaja on ISKCON, then I think that would have worked a lot better than all this feverish fanaticism to try and promote that if ISKCON or the followers of Srila Prabhupada did not accept Narayana Maharaja as the universal siksha guru and mandatory sadhu sanga they were all big offenders.

 

Narayana Maharaja enjoyed a respectable position with ISKCON devotees until his follwers came out like little brats trying to cram him down the throat of ISKCON.

 

So, you guys have pissed your own bed and now you have to lay in it.

 

I went to the camp of Sridhar Maharaja in about 1981 and I was a close associate of Bhakti Sudhir Maharaja, but I don't ever remember the kind of fanatic, holier-than-thou fanaticism from that camp that I have seen from the camp of Narayana Maharaja.

 

Actually, I mostly admired Narayana Maharaja before his followers turned me off.

 

But, I am not so sure that Narayana Maharaja didn't have something to do with the fanatic extremism that most all his followers have been spreading around the world since ISKCON devotees starting turning to him for guidance.

 

It appears that he has had something to do with the phenomenon.

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Sridhar Maharaja:

The purifying potency of the water has nothing to do with the water we can feel and see. What can we see with our physical eyes? The current of the Ganges is pure. When the spirit and sanction is there, it is a living thing, and can purify everyone."

 

Yes, therefore the "spirit and the sanction" cannot necessarily be seen with "our physical eyes". Therefore the sanction from above to be guru may not always come in a formal way. Srila Prabhupada was not a proponent of appointing gurus for this very reason and neither was he an "appointed guru".

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Actually, I mostly admired Narayana Maharaja before his followers turned me off.

 

Allen Ginsberg told me the same thing about Srila Prabhupada almost verbatim in August of 1972. The pure devotees have full knowledge that the kannistha devotees that they create will pass stool and urine on them just like a human infant. But just as a mother sees no offense from the child when this happen similarly the spiritual master does not take the childish mistakes of the beginners as an offense; After all he is the ever well wisher of his devotees and in fact, all living entites. But we must not be like little Kaliya serpants passing stool, urine and our poison in to the river of the association of devotees.

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Allen Ginsberg told me the same thing about Srila Prabhupada almost verbatim in August of 1972. The pure devotees have full knowledge that the kannistha devotees that they create will pass stool and urine on them just like a human infant. But just as a mother sees no offense from the child when this happen similarly the spiritual master does not take the childish mistakes of the beginners as an offense; After all he is the ever well wisher of his devotees and in fact, all living entites. But we must not be like little Kaliya serpants passing stool, urine and our poison in to the river of the association of devotees.

 

To alot of the old school Prabhupada-era devotees, Narayana Maharaja more-or-less revived the gopi-bhava club that Srila Prabhupada smashed back in the early 70s.

 

He has his own style and his own mood.

Anyone that says that his style and mood is the same as Srila Prabhupada is living in an hallucination.

 

He is great in his own way, but he is quite the different flavor from Srila Prabhupada. Not everyone is going to be able to make the transition from the Prabhupada atmosphere to the Narayana Maharaja atmosphere.

 

I don't think that anyone who does not "feel the love" with Narayana Maharaja should be faulted.

 

If they don't have it, they just don't have it.

 

For many devotees the move into the camp or sanga of Narayana Maharaja is just too radical a change from the mood of Srila Prabhupada and how he preached during his era in ISKCON.

 

I think the attempt of his followers to broadcast all over the movement that all of ISKCON needed the sanga and siksha of Narayana Maharaja was a big mistake.

 

I heard plenty of it.

 

These guys and gals talked as if there was no option and that if all the ISKCON devotees did not accept Narayana Maharaja as successor to Prabhupada or at least at siksha-guru to ISKCON, then they were all commiting offense and could never make any advancement without Narayana Maharaja.

 

So, this kind of preaching has been going on for years and is still going on actually.

 

It never accomplished anything positive and it never will.

 

Then when Narayana Maharaja is gone, who are they then going to prop-up as successor to Prabhupada and rightful heir to the leadership of ISKCON?

 

I think they will all suffer from lack of centers and temples, because Narayana Maharaja is not doing much of anything to create temples and communities of his follwers around the world..

 

After Narayana Maharaja is gone I foresee that his movement is going to crumble into a thousand pieces and his followers are going to regret having burnt their bridges to ISKCON with all their fanatic, extremist attempts to impose Narayana Maharaja on ISKCON and discredit the ISKCON leadership.

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Drstadyumna had the same criticisms when he left Narayana Maharaja (and gave up sannyasa for the second time). But who knows? In a way such criticisms sound like something from a sophomore political science class. Maybe we our using our analytical skills to disect the undisectable?

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Drstadyumna had the same criticisms when he left Narayana Maharaja (and gave up sannyasa for the second time). But who knows? In a way such criticisms sound like something from a sophomore political science class. Maybe we our using our analytical skills to disect the undisectable?

 

That's kinda interesting.

Just a couple of days ago I was thinking to myself "I wondered what happened to Drstadyumna after he took sannyasa again".

 

I haven't heard much of anything about him since I heard Narayana Maharaja gave him sannyasa again.

 

I was also thinking that Narayana Maharaja shouldn't have given him sannyasa again.

It appears my suspicions were correct.

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I guess it all depends on whose Army you are in?

 

That's only true to some extent. The Vaisnavas have their etiquette or sadacara; The knights of the Middle Ages had their Code of Chivalry; The millitaries of all countries until the middle of the 20th century actually followed the millitary code. Once after General Sherman had burned Atlanta, a Confederate private spat in the face of a Union officer who was a prisoner of war. Once the Confederate captain learned of this breach of the millitary code he had the private immediately taken before the firing squad for insubordination to an officer. Didn't you ever hear anything in ISKCON about "respecting the uniform"? Once after he made a criticism of a godbrother one of Prabhupada's disciples chimed in. Prabhupada told, "I can do, but you cannot". How can fallen householders discuss and analyze the positon of an extremely senior sanyassi, even if they are in a different camp? I guess the answer is that this is an example of the deep inroads the rapid advance of Kali Yuga has made upon us.

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That's only true to some extent. The Vaisnavas have their etiquette or sadacara; The knights of the Middle Ages had their Code of Chivalry; The millitaries of all countries until the middle of the 20th century actually followed the millitary code. Once after General Sherman had burned Atlanta, a Confederate private spat in the face of a Union officer who was a prisoner of war. Once the Confederate captain learned of this breach of the millitary code he had the private immediately taken before the firing squad for insubordination to an officer. Didn't you ever hear anything in ISKCON about "respecting the uniform"? Once after he made a criticism of a godbrother one of Prabhupada's disciples chimed in. Prabhupada told, "I can do, but you cannot". How can fallen householders discuss and analyze the positon of an extremely senior sanyassi, even if they are in a different camp? I guess the answer is that this is an example of the deep inroads the rapid advance of Kali Yuga has made upon us.

 

I see you have been watching the History Channel on TV.

Me too.

I love the History Channel.

(well, not in the sense of "prema")

 

I think Kali-yuga gurus are more of an issue than Kali-yuga householders.

 

Bad leaders are more of an issue than bad congregationals.

 

Bad leaders are the most serious issue facing the movement.

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Bad leaders are more of an issue than bad congregationals.

 

Bad leaders are the most serious issue facing the movement.

 

http://www.mandala.com.au/prapanna/ch-4.html

 

 

4.5

vyavaharika-gurvadayo 'pi pratikulam ced varjjaniya eva -

gurur na sa syat svajano na sa syat

pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat

daivam na tat syan na patis ca sa syan

na mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyam

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 07 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Sri Rsabhasya </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

When the traditional guru and guardians are found to be unfavorable, they too must surely be abandoned -

"One who cannot save other souls from the world of impending death - that is, one who cannot teach the path of devotion - he cannot be a teacher, although he may be called 'guru'; he cannot be a relative - he is not worthy of the designation; he cannot be a father - he is not qualified to beget a son; she cannot be a mother - she should not bear a child; he cannot be a god - the demigods who cannot deliver others from material bondage are not entitled to accept worship from human society; and he cannot be a husband - his hand is not fit to accept in marriage."

<!-- Table 08 Row 01 --> <table width="95%"><tbody><tr><td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Sri Rsabhadeva</td></tr></tbody></table>

But, *also*!!!

 

 

4.14

cit-tattve jada-buddhir jadadhina-buddhir va aparadhatvena parivarjjaniya -

arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhir

visnor va vaisnavanam kali-mala-mathane pada-tirthe 'mbu-buddhih

sri-visnor-namni-mantre sakala-kalusa-he sabda-samanya-buddhir

visnau sarvesvarese tad-itara-sama-dhir yasya va naraki sah

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 32 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Sri Vyasapadanam </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

The offensive mentality of considering worshippable, conscious divine forms to be mundane or subordinate to mundanity must be totally abandoned -

"Anyone who considers the worshippable Deity to be stone; who considers the Vaisnava Guru to be a mortal man; who considers a Vaisnava to be limited by the confines of caste, lineage, or creed; who considers the holy foot-wash of Lord Visnu or a Vaisnava to be ordinary water; who considers the holy name and mantra of Lord Visnu, which vanquish all sins, to be common sound vibration; and who considers the God of gods, Lord Visnu, to be merely on the level of the demigods - such a person is a diabolical devil."

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 33 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Sri Vyasadeva </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

4.15

tapah prabhrtinam pratikulyam -

rahuganaitat tapasa na yati

na cejyaya nirvapanad grhad va

na cchandasa naiva jalagni-suryair

vine mahat-pada-rajo 'bhisekam

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 34 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Sri Jadabharatasya </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

The adversity of all attempts based on austerity, etc. -

"O Rahugana, without one's head being adorned with the dust of the holy feet of a pure devotee, one can never attain devotion for the Supreme Lord by austerity, by Vedic worship and religiosity, by following the vow of monkhood, by following the religious duties of married life, by study and recitation of the Vedas, or by worshipping water, fire, or sun."

<!-- Table 35 Row 01 --> <table width="95%"><tbody><tr><td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Sri Jadabharata</td></tr></tbody></table>

But, HERE IS THE PUNCHLINE:

 

 

4.25

aikantika-bhaktasya ksayavasista-dosa-darsanagraho varjjaniyah -

drstaih svabhava-janitair vapusas ca dosair

na prakrtatvam iha bhakta-janasya pasyet

gangambhasam na khalu bud-buda-phena-pankair

brahma-dravatvam apagacchah nira-dharmaih

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 65 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Sri Rupapadanam </td> </tr> <!-- Table 65 Row 02 --> <tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Sri Rupa Goswami </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

The tendency to find the dying remnants of personal defects in an exclusive devotee must be abandoned -

svabhava janita ara vapu-dose ksane, anadara nahi kara suddha bhakta-jane

pankadi jaliya dose kabhu ganga-jale, cinmayatva lopa nahe sarva-sastre bale

aprakrta bhakta-jana papa nahi kare, avasista papa yaya kichu-dina pare

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 66 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> (Bengali verse by Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura) </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

"For defects in his nature, or defects in his body,

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 67 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> one should never disrespect Lord Krsna's pure devotee. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> If mud, foam, and bubbles appear in Ganges water,

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 68 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> it never loses divinity - so says the Scripture. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> The devotee of divinity - he does never sin,

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 69 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> and if a remnant does remain, soon that too is gone." </td> </tr> <!-- Table 69 Row 02 --> <tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> (Bengali verse translation) </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

4.26

para-dosanusilanam varjjaniyam -

para-svabhava-karmani, yah prasamsati nindati

sa asu bhrasyate svarthad, asatyabhinivesatah

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 70 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Sri Sri Bhagavatah </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

The practice of finding faults in others must be abandoned -

"To pointlessly judge others is a defect, and therefore such a practice must be abandoned. O Uddhava, you should neither praise nor abuse the nature and actions of others, because you will become preoccupied with falsehood and your best self-interest will be lost."

<!-- Table 71 Row 01 --> <table width="95%"><tbody><tr><td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> - the Supreme Personality of Godhead</td></tr></tbody></table>

I plead guilty to praising and abusing the nature and actions of others, and, sure enough, I'm preoccupied with falsehood...

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