I had thought about stopping initiations last year.. Indradyumna Swami

[Guest guest]

 

I think that kind of talk is a direct insult to Srila Prabhupada, as it was him who created the GBC and also the ritvik system.

There wouldn't be any "bhakti community" around the world if it wasn't for Srila Prabhupada.

 

And when you defeat the mayavadhis who say "it's all one - rascal guru, genuine guru", when they are actually defeated, what do they do - they keep silent - waiting for others whom they can sell their crap...and so it goes...kali-yuga ki jaya!

[Guest guest]

 

Any initiated devotee can be diksha guru...........

 

This is dangerous philosophy to which sastra says clearly no!

Diksa guru has to be uttama-adikari, very simple, no arguments.

[Guruvani 0]

 

This is dangerous philosophy to which sastra says clearly no!

Diksa guru has to be uttama-adikari, very simple, no arguments.

 

If somebody wants to accept a madhyama or a kanistha bhakta as his spiritual master then that is their business and nobody elses.

 

The shastra recommends that one be careful to accept an Uttama adhkari, so if the diksha guru is kanistha and the siksha guru is Uttama, then the siksha guru can make up for the lacking of the diksha guru.

But that is not a law or a rule.

It's just a recommendation.

It's the belittling of Vaishnavas that we like to classify so many advanced souls as Kanistha. Because we are kanistha, we accuse everyone of being on our platform.

that is jealousy.

 

Thats why Srila Prabhupada told his disciples that you can be rascal #1 and still be spiritual master if you lead people to the Uttama siksha guru.

 

It's time to take the monopoly away from the rubber stamp club and the bamboo stick carriers and give the credit to the real preachers who are making people into devotees.

[Guest guest]

 

What have you to say about that, bhakta?

 

At that time Hansadutta was about to reject Prabhupada and start his own matha, with him on top, of course using Prabhupada's money to do that. In order to calm him down Prabhupada wrote, wait a bit, later you can turn wild..

You see what happened? Hansadutta was such a deviant that Prabhupada had to pacify him like a child - here take that sweet, be peaceful, yes, later...., just wait a bit longer. Meanwhile Hansadutta turned wild, bought machine guns, Porsche cars and took the money of his disciples to brothels..This is obviously what you like, gurus with fancy cars doing all kind of criminal things?

[Guest guest]

 

If somebody wants to accept a madhyama or a kanistha bhakta as his spiritual master then that is their business and nobody elses.

 

 

 

Oh yes, thats what exactly happened past 30 years - come here folks, look, thats your genuine guru! Disciples: "yes, we surrender".

So, you consider, after all it wasnt that bad, lets go on with that policy, 35 fallen gurus, peanuts. Meanwhile nobody wants to join ISKCON anymore and Prabhupada being called ill names, "he invented that madness", kanistha, madhyama gurus posing as bona fide acaryas. Guess at one point you're right, and that point is almost reached, no more new disciples who want to be the guinea pigs in your experimt. Armys of gurus but no more disciples. Well, if those gurus are rich they can pay their disciples to stay, and thats what goes on in full swing. Paid temple staff members, the new generation of disciples. You probably call it desa kala padra, we have to consider the time we are living in?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

But does this not open the temples gates wide open for all kind of cheaters/swindlers in the name of Gaudiya-Vaishnavism? If it becomes the normal cliche of western Vaishnavism that all those acaryas who sit as totalitarians on the vyasasana fall down like corrupt politicians/windfall what's your answer?

 

 

Quite frankly, historically there has been more cheaters/swindlers in the name of Gaudiya-Vaishnavism than in the name of any other Vaishnava tradition and it all started long before Iskcon. Why? mainly because GV relies to a large extent on very flexible and emotional interpretations of the tradition and scriptures. And one of the most dangerous ideas is one of GV acharya sitting on a vyasasana as an absolute totalitarian ruler of his dominion, or the way you put it:

 

"a guru sitting on the vyasanana is not something like a Catholic priest, a Vaishnava guru sitting on the vyasasana is according sastra in an absolute position, he occupies a totalitarian office, everything he orders has to be performed. Disciples have to surrender all their assets and become just like his livelong bondservants"

 

that is an idea created long ago in Gaudiya-Vaishnavism in a sect later known as Karta Bhajas, which literally means: "Those who worship their master". you should read about their history as it is very informative.

 

A Vaishnava acharya is not a totalitarian emperor, this idea goes against every Vedic principle. Even Vedic kings were not totalitarian emperors as their rule was completely surrendered to the principles of Dharma. Was Markandeya Rishi a totalitarian ruler? How about Vyasadeva? Jagannatha Das Babaji? Bhaktivinoda Thakura?

 

Now look at ISKCON clowns like Kirtanananda, who at one time even sported a royal crown while sitting on the royal vyasasana... LOL! These guys fell down PRECISELY because they thought of themselves as totalitarian rulers. And the dumb cattle like you still treasures that idea... what irony!

 

quit concocting apa-sampradayic concepts and embrace the shelter of proper vedic traditions as carried in our sampradaya.

[theist 1]

 

I think that kind of talk is a direct insult to Srila Prabhupada, as it was him who created the GBC and also the ritvik system.

There wouldn't be any "bhakti community" around the world if it wasn't for Srila Prabhupada.

 

You confuse the GBC, and even the ritviks, with Srila Prabhupada, yet these two groups are at loggerheads with each other. That is your major mistake and a confused position. Stick to it if you like.

 

I am choosing another direction for myself. Personally when I read the Srimad Bhagavatam I get a whole different understanding of how the parampara works.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

At that time Hansadutta was about to reject Prabhupada and start his own matha, with him on top, of course using Prabhupada's money to do that. In order to calm him down Prabhupada wrote, wait a bit, later you can turn wild..

You see what happened? Hansadutta was such a deviant that Prabhupada had to pacify him like a child - here take that sweet, be peaceful, yes, later...., just wait a bit longer. Meanwhile Hansadutta turned wild, bought machine guns, Porsche cars and took the money of his disciples to brothels..This is obviously what you like, gurus with fancy cars doing all kind of criminal things?

 

what a load of cowdung... if Hansadutta was such a nonsense then it would have been simpler to openly tell him that. Prabhupada was NOT SHY when it came to delivering needed medicine to his disciples. are you saying that Prabhupada made stuff up to pacify his disciples? LOL! now, that is a totalitarian ruler acharya for you in action...

 

it is people like you who will make up imaginary explanations to quotes you dont like. according to you, Prabhupada was such a poor judge of human character he surrounded himself exclusively with power hungry crooks and liars and had to tell them lies himself to keep them happy... meanwhile, good worker ants like you were doing all the heavy lifting in the movement... whatever, dude...

[Guruvani 0]

 

You confuse the GBC, and even the ritviks, with Srila Prabhupada, yet these two groups are at loggerheads with each other. That is your major mistake and a confused position. Stick to it if you like.

 

I am choosing another direction for myself. Personally when I read the Srimad Bhagavatam I get a whole different understanding of how the parampara works.

 

I ain't confusin' nuttin' with nobody.

 

You keep talking about parampara, but in this age Mahaprabhu set into motion a Sankirtan movement that took the old one-guru-one-disciple system and turned it on it's head with a free-for-all of given' away love of God.

 

Maybe you should spend some time trying to understand how Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement works, because in this age this is how the mercy is comin' down!

 

Understand Mahaprabhu and the Sankirtan movement and then you will understand parampara.

[theist 1]

I won't waste time arguing the point. We disagree that's all.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

 

what a load of cowdung... if Hansadutta was such a nonsense then it would have been simpler to openly tell him that. Prabhupada was NOT SHY when it came to delivering needed medicine to his disciples. are you saying that Prabhupada made stuff up to pacify his disciples? LOL! now, that is a totalitarian ruler acharya for you in action...

 

it is people like you who will make up imaginary explanations to quotes you dont like. according to you, Prabhupada was such a poor judge of human character he surrounded himself exclusively with power hungry crooks and liars and had to tell them lies himself to keep them happy... meanwhile, good worker ants like you were doing all the heavy lifting in the movement... whatever, dude...

 

You behave just like some silly little boy who cant grasp the meaning of the very term to delegate..what you call cowdung happens all the time, even presidents are lifted to office because they have crowd pulling potential and as soon they make mistakes they're removed overnight. What's your problem? Prabhupada had to use those folks because we live in USA and in the age of kali - no better quality of cannon fodder available, it's that simple. This doesnt have anything to do with "poor judge of human character" or

"simpler to openly tell him that": no other more advanced spirit souls available, why dont you get it? So Prabhupada simply had to make the best use out of a bad bargain and expertly delegate what was available. Take Kirtananda, according your cleverness kick him out immediately when fooling around like he did. But who else was there? People with leading potential are always rare, especially when it comes to join a spiritual movement.

Prabhupada also didnt make stuff up - when you build a bridge and you have to engage monkeys like Lord Ramachandra did you have to tell those monkeys how great they are. And thats what Prabhupada tried to do, building a bridge to bring Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan mission, the yuga-avatara, Krishna Himself, to the West.

And for this gigantic achievement bringing the origin of everything, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krishna into the peoples mind, worldwide (!), can we not say the end justifies the means? What's your answer?

[theist 1]

 

what a load of cowdung... if Hansadutta was such a nonsense then it would have been simpler to openly tell him that. Prabhupada was NOT SHY when it came to delivering needed medicine to his disciples. are you saying that Prabhupada made stuff up to pacify his disciples? LOL! now, that is a totalitarian ruler acharya for you in action...

 

it is people like you who will make up imaginary explanations to quotes you dont like. according to you, Prabhupada was such a poor judge of human character he surrounded himself exclusively with power hungry crooks and liars and had to tell them lies himself to keep them happy... meanwhile, good worker ants like you were doing all the heavy lifting in the movement... whatever, dude...

 

We do have the example of Vasudeva rescuing Devaki from Kamsa using this same principle to consider.

 

Every acarya has to work as best he can with whoever comes forward to do some service. And considering he is operating in the material field those that come forward from that field will have have double motives. He is not ignorant to the disciples dark side but he tries to correct him by keeping him engaged. The rest is between that disciple and Krsna. Tough job being someones personal guru.

 

I don't know what happened specifically in the incident in question. I do know the magnificent 11 showed their true feathers immediately after Sria Prabhupada stepped away from earthly vision.

[theist 1]

 

once you understand that it is Krsna who is Sri Guru the preoccupation with seeking the "absolute perfection" in an individual guru should ease a bit...

 

can Krsna manifest His teaching potency (Sri Guru) in a "not-so-perfect" but certainly sincere guru? why not? if such an empowered guru can give siksha, why not diksha as well? especially since in our tradition siksha is more important than diksha.

 

It is Krsna's voice one should hearing when hearing from guru. Not seeing seeing guru as some totally disconnected unit speaking about Krsna. Big big difference.

 

When one is sincere enough to be granted such Krsna conscious hearing ability he can easy take siksa properly from more than one guru if necesary because for him guru is always one, Si Krsna, who manifests in many.

 

In fact the perfection of this Krsna conscious hearing ability is found in the true paramhamsa. He can take the nectar of Krsna's presence from everyone and everything without getting caught up in any personality cult.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

...can we not say the end justifies the means? What's your answer?

 

my answer is a resounding NO! the end does NOT justify the means, that is NOT a vedic paradigm. quote the shastra to prove your point. that is a communist logic, not a Vedic principle.

 

I do not buy the argument that people like Kirtanananda was the best the movement could offer Prabhupada in terms of devotee resources. and it is not true that all of the 11 turned bad as soon as Prabhupada left the planet. that is very inaccurate.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

We do have the example of Vasudeva rescuing Devaki from Kamsa using this same principle to consider.

 

what happens in the leela stays in the leela, you should know that by now besides, Vasudeva did not speak lies.

[Guest guest]

 

my answer is a resounding NO! the end does NOT justify the means, that is NOT a vedic paradigm. quote the shastra to prove your point. that is a communist logic, not a Vedic principle.

 

I do not buy the argument that people like Kirtanananda was the best the movement could offer Prabhupada in terms of devotee resources. and it is not true that all of the 11 turned bad as soon as Prabhupada left the planet. that is very inaccurate.

 

You're far too speedy with your comments when it comes to such grave points about the mission of a great acarya like Srila Prabhupada and him globally implanting the yuga-dharma for liberating all the conditioned souls from the cycle of repeated birth and death.

Honestly, you should stay in your limit!

Nobody takes such wish wash serious.

Thats the unfortunate aspect of the internet, people believe they can comment about anything and everything, everybody reads and they remain unseen, hiding in their chamber. You cannot fool me tho!

First read Bhagavad-gita - then you know what is vedic pinciple!

Or are you hesitant to believe that there was a kuruksetra war?

"A dirty war which was terribly offending the vedic principle", you would say?

[ananda 0]

Hare Krishna to all WARRING POSTERS

 

Please accept my humble obeisances! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

I have been following this thread from the beginning and i am amazed in the number of responses and criticizing happening in this thread.

 

I have personally not posted any response yet (although i did try to once).

Before we go into the details...first we have our daily duties per Srila Prabhupada instructions..which are

 

Chant a mininum of 16 rounds

follow the 4 regulative principles

eat only prasadam everyday

Read Prabhupada books atleast 1 hour daily

and be humble and tolerant...

 

as Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said "humbler than the straw on the street and tolerant as a tree"

 

Those who follow all the principles mentioned above, please criticize, if not, we have no rights to critcize anybody.

Below are of quotes pertaining to Vaishnava etiqutte

 

"Throughout his life, a brahmana should consider material prestige to be

like poison and dishonor to be like nectar. After all, if one learns to

tolerate dishonor, then his agitation will subside and he will happily

sleep, happily wake, and happily move about. The person who insults him

will, because of his sin, become regretful, and his happiness in this and

the next life will be vanquished."

(Manu-samhita 2.162-163)

Quoted by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura in "Brahmana O Vaisnava".

 

"The ignorant seek to injure the wise by malice and back-biting; by doing so

the critic takes upon himself the load of the wise man’s sins, which he, the

wise man, casts off by forgiving the ignorant."

(Vidura to Dhritarastra, Mahabharata, Udyoga parva 34.74)

 

The first quote talks about tolerating dishonor, i dont think any of us here are at that level...so are we qualified to CRITICIZE?

The second quote talks about quality of a wise man...first are we wise....if so...will we be arguing like this...if we are not...then we have work to do.

Wise meaning we should be humble and tolerant!! and not bad mouth everything and everybody. This thread is a proof that we exist in the PLANE OF DUALITY.

 

We should be ashamed, as Vaishnavas, bicker like this. I am no better, as i have similar tendancies. Yes, one may be correct, one may be wrong, or both may be correct or wrong....but the question is...

"He that is without a sin among you, let him first cast a stone" John 8.7

Again, i am included in all of this...so dont go in tangents criticizing me (you will miss the point).

 

So...those of you who are tolerant, humble and follow all the principles as set by Srila Prabhupada support or dont support the ISKCON we see today (bcos ISKCON is Srila Prabhupada).

 

But one has to be smart in not accepting everything we see. So we have to learn to be humble and tolerant and strong and convey the message. Humble and tolerance does not mean we should soft and meek....no Prabhupada was humble and tolerant and hence he could withstand the MANY mistakes his disciples did when he was alive...you think he was not compassionate even after SO MANY offenses his disciples did. WHo are we to argue like cats and dogs over who is correct and wrong.

WHile he apologized and was so compassionate during his living time, why we think he will not be now.

 

The point is...we all will make mistakes...and unless one comes to the platform of Uttama Adhikari....we will make mistakes.

I am sure, bickering and arguing will not bring any of us to that platform of Utama Adhikari. I am hoping everyone's goal in this forum and post is to be liberated from this cycle of birth and death and live a life that makes Srila Prabhupada happy. We should ask ourselves....bickering like cats and dogs...will it make him happy or not....

 

First question....are we all qualified to criticzie or comment on other people (everyone devotees and non-devotees)...only Krishna has the qualification to do that...so then what is our job?

Simple....follow the rules set by our Guru...all of us agree Srila Prabhupada is our Guru (siksha, diksha and otherwise)...

 

So...are we following it all diligently to make him happy...if so.....we will not be fighting and arguing....bcos....by following the rules....

we would have developed the qualities of TOLERANCE, HUMBLENESS and COMPASSION and so we can live like VAISHNAVAS and make Srila Prabhupada happy.

 

Then...above that...we have to distribute books and flood the world with Krishna Consciousness.

 

Why are we arguing over the Guru system when we ourselves have a ton of work to do that if we spend every minute of our life....this one life time will not be enough.

 

So...please let us all (all warring groups) understand the bigger issues and whichever system...try to practically apply Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam principles in our !life opportunities.

 

So, anybody who is qualified, please criticize...if not we have work to do!

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

Why are we arguing over the Guru system when we ourselves have a ton of work to do that if we spend every minute of our life....this one life time will not be enough.

 

 

Any guru system that props up men who come out to be big leaders and take many disciples and then walk away from ISKCON in disgrace is a serious problem that needs to be fixed.

All this "it's all good brother" sentimentalism is part of the problem of discrediting and disgracing the Gaudiya parampara and dragging the good name of Srila Prabhupada through the stool fields.

 

Not everybody wants to turn their head and pretend that everything is OK with ISKCON.

The effort to restore the integrity to ISKCON is very important to many followers of Srila Prabhupada and they should not be faulted for fighting for the cause.

 

All these people who are busy re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic have missed the point.

If the ship is sinking, then it doesn't matter who has the big seat and who doesn't.

Most important is to stop the ship from sinking.

[theist 1]

 

what happens in the leela stays in the leela, you should know that by now besides, Vasudeva did not speak lies.

 

There is nothing but good instruction in Krsna lila and even lessons on how we must deal with the world and opposing forces. Vaudeva did not speak lies but he did act diplomatically for the greater good.

 

For those that may not be familar this is from the summary to the first chapter in canto 10 of SB.

 

After marrying Devaki, Vasudeva was returning home with her on a chariot driven by Kamsa, her brother, when an ominous voice addressed Kamsa, warning him that Devaki's eighth son would kill him. Upon hearing this omen, Kamsa was immediately ready to kill Devaki, but Vasudeva diplomatically began to instruct him. Vasudeva stressed that it would not be good for Kamsa to kill his younger sister, especially at the time of her marriage. Anyone who possesses a material body must die, Vasudeva advised him. Every living entity lives in a body for some time and then transmigrates to another body, but one is unfortunately misled into accepting the body as the soul. If a person under this mistaken conception wants to kill another body, he is condemned as hellish.

Because Kamsa was not satisfied by Vasudeva's instructions, Vasudeva devised a plan. He offered to bring Kamsa all of Devaki's children so that Kamsa could kill them. Why then should Kamsa kill Devaki now? Kamsa was satisfied by this proposal.

This diplomacy which kept Devaki alive was necessary to allow Krsna to take birth through her womb, although imprisioned.

I see this as analogous to Iskcon today and to how Srila may have been forced by circumstance to deal with those of his movement that had a strong leadership propensity just to keep his fledgling movement alive.

Those who had been designated to keep the ritvik system going seized the oppurtunity Kamsa like for their own gratification and thus imprisioned Iskcon. And just as Krsna still entered through her womb in due course I expect to see the real life of Krsna conscious appear through Iskcon. For that to happen I believe the steel bars of the misconception of Iskcon controlling the parampara and the subsequent aparadha directed to those teachers outside their organization need to fall. I continue with this optomistic outlook.

Just my opinion and outlook and nothing more.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

First read Bhagavad-gita - then you know what is vedic pinciple!

Or are you hesitant to believe that there was a kuruksetra war?

"A dirty war which was terribly offending the vedic principle", you would say?

 

what are you talking about? I asked you to show me a shastric quote that justifies the maxim "the end justifies the means" and the best you can do is to suggest that I see this conflict as a metaphor (hidden allusion to me being a mayavadi?).

 

Tell me who acted like that during the battle? if anything, the Vedic kshatriya principle would be "the end does NOT justify the means". fighting dirty in order to win is CERTAINLY NOT vedic.

 

 

you do not understand my comments and simply accuse me of criticizing Prabhupada, a typical response from your lot.

 

I'm trying to show you that a lot of stuff you ritviks spout about why and what happened is in fact implying that Prabhupada was a poor judge of human character, was weak and manipulated by his disciples, and had to resort to telling lies to keep them happy. you spout such garbage just to defend your pet theory, and that is seriously wrong. Furthermore, you imply he had no power to transform even one of his disciples into a pure devotee worthy of continuing the line of gurus in the Sarasvata parampara which is just as bad of a slander. If the process he gave us is incapable to produce one such person after 40 years, than that proces is worthless!

 

you are so blind and so fooled by your attachment to your pet theory of "ritvik forever" that you do not realize the implications of that theory. that sentimentality and lack of deeper understanding and vision is the very reason you folks accepted this theory of "ritvik forever" in the first place.

[Guest guest]

 

Any guru system that props up men who come out to be big leaders and take many disciples and then walk away from ISKCON in disgrace is a serious problem that needs to be fixed.

All this "it's all good brother" sentimentalism is part of the problem of discrediting and disgracing the Gaudiya parampara and dragging the good name of Srila Prabhupada through the stool fields.

 

Not everybody wants to turn their head and pretend that everything is OK with ISKCON.

The effort to restore the integrity to ISKCON is very important to many followers of Srila Prabhupada and they should not be faulted for fighting for the cause.

 

All these people who are busy re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic have missed the point.

If the ship is sinking, then it doesn't matter who has the big seat and who doesn't.

Most important is to stop the ship from sinking.

 

This is exactly the point Guruvani prabhu is making - when Prabhupada left us ISKCON was on strong course of expansion, you actually felt it's getting bigger everyday. Today, 2006, you see ISKCON diminishing everywhere, in fact it became something like a stagnent cult, almost about to disappear. This is not Srila Prabhupada's mood anymore it rather looks like a gradually perishing entity.

Especially all over Europe you find since almost 30 years one so called guru after the other fallen down and temples being closed one by one. When you see people rejecting ISKCON with such profound aversion, please tell me, how can you keep quiet? This is not bickering, criticizing, back-biting, this is calling a thief a thief. ISKCON is being stolen away from Prabhupada and now ISKCON tumbles down. It's that simple.

Do you remember the old fable about the farmer who had a goose that laid golden eggs? He was happy about his good fortune but wanted more eggs faster. In his short-sighted frustration, the farmer cut off the head of the goose to reach inside and get all the golden eggs at once.

This is what happened with ISKCON, therefore its going to disappear.

As soon Srila Prabhupada is put right back in the center it will again become the world-wide In-Every-Town-And-Village-Movement.

[ananda 0]

Hare Krishna!

 

To Gauravani

 

You are assuming that the Gaudiya Parampara is at peril because of the ritvik problem in ISKCON?

 

So...by arguing with a couple of people in this forum, you think you will change the situation..??

 

Prabhupada said...PURITY IS THE FORCE...why he did not mention any other thing...Are we PURE to question the weakness in others?

 

Yes, i accept there is a problem in ISKCON Guru system...but there is a bigger problem than that....that is we are NO BETTER.

 

So...as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said....First you clean yourself, then you help others...so it starts from YOU.

 

We clean the INSIDE of us first...so if you are really concerned about ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada, follow everything he said, PURIFY yourself and then PREACH about right and wrong.

 

In the Bhagavad Gita, it is said, a Sadhu sees with equal visiion a Brahmana, a dog and a dogeater...so, first we have to become sadhus and then help ISKCON improve and not just arguing over the internet.

 

Ofcourse, MAYA will fight against us...as Srila Prabhupada once said that ISKCON is in the material world and hence MAYA will impact it. So, we will be fools if we think ISKCON as an institution that should be perfect...it will not...but what is perfect...the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

So we follow his teachings and then we become perfect.

 

Gaudiya Vaishnavism is the teachings and not the flawed guru system.

Arjuna's guru Drona acharya was on the opposite side and Krishna was with Arjuna. So, does that mean Drona acharya is a rascal because he opposed Krishna. Does that mean...Arjuna has to disrespect his Guru and bad mouth his Guru.

 

No....Arjuna fought ONLY because Krishna said so....

 

Similarly...there may be mistakes in the Guru system or a Guru himself, but we have NO QUALIFICATION to comment or criticize...why? because we ourselves are IMPURE.

 

Dont worry about Gaudiya Vaishnava Parampara....it is ETERNAL and not subject to the Guru system in ISKCON.

 

More than anything, Prabhupada wanted everyone to read his books....

So if you are really concerned about ISKCON and Prabhupada,

DISTRIBUTE HIS BOOKS and PURIFY YOURSELF BY READING AND CHANTING!

Argument will not lead you anywhere

 

Sorry for being assertive, after 140 odd posts, no one has agreed on one point and you think you are helping ISKCON and PRabhupada by voiciing your conern...what these posts have established is simple hate and bad mouth....nothing else...there is no constructive criticisms or analysis or research....

 

just cutting and pasting arguing about other people's opinion doesnt make you or anybody better and that you imply that you are fighting for ISKCON, PRabhupada and eventually Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

The greatness of Gaudiya Vaishnavism is love and compassion to all human beings inspite of caste, creed or color.

 

Are you telling that you cannot be TOLERANT to accept people's flaws and that constant education and tolerance can change the way people do business.

 

Argument can only lead to more argument....no point continuuing

 

ISKCON is not just the GURU SYSTEM...it is MUCH MUCH MORE...if you think this GURU SYSTEM will fail ISKCON and Gaudiya Vaishnavism...you cannot be wronger...!!

 

Haribol

 

anand

[Guest guest]

 

what are you talking about? I asked you to show me a shastric quote that justifies the maxim "the end justifies the means" and the best you can do is to suggest that I see this conflict as a metaphor (hidden allusion to me being a mayavadi?).

 

Tell me who acted like that during the battle? if anything, the Vedic kshatriya principle would be "the end does NOT justify the means". fighting dirty in order to win is CERTAINLY NOT vedic.

 

 

you do not understand my comments and simply accuse me of criticizing Prabhupada, a typical response from your lot.

 

I'm trying to show you that a lot of stuff you ritviks spout about why and what happened is in fact implying that Prabhupada was a poor judge of human character, was weak and manipulated by his disciples, and had to resort to telling lies to keep them happy. you spout such garbage just to defend your pet theory, and that is seriously wrong. Furthermore, you imply he had no power to transform even one of his disciples into a pure devotee worthy of continuing the line of gurus in the Sarasvata parampara which is just as bad of a slander. If the process he gave us is incapable to produce one such person after 40 years, than that proces is worthless!

 

you are so blind and so fooled by your attachment to your pet theory of "ritvik forever" that you do not realize the implications of that theory. that sentimentality and lack of deeper understanding and vision is the very reason you folks accepted this theory of "ritvik forever" in the first place.

 

Looks like gradually we are getting to the root, what you're saying concerns the credibility of the very process of bhakti-yoga in full spectrum. What I read between the lines is that you actually dont believe that the path of bhakti works! Spiritual advancement doesnt work like that the spiritual master performs some magic and voila I'm free of material attachement. Therefore we find in the Srimad Bhagavatam lots of devotees presented whose spiritual development took them several life times. You might comment, their gurus must have been useless, the instructions worthless. In sum you say, please correct, you have quite some doubts if the process of bhakti-yoga actually works, but still you feel priviledged to discuss about topics which are based upon that the path of bhakti works. This is of course not the ideal starting position and it should be examined how far you came, where are you stuck in your spiritual advancement and what is your attitude towards the path of bhakti-yoga in general?

[Guest guest]

 

..........so it starts from YOU.

 

 

 

Dear Anand, does this not looks very much like criticizing others to not criticize?

Vaishnava forums are meant to discuss, or are you suggesting Vaishnava forums even to be closed?

[Guest guest]

ananda das says:

Yes, i accept there is a problem in ISKCON Guru system...but there is a bigger problem than that....that is we are NO BETTER.

 

the only way that would be "a bigger problem" is if any of us were claiming to be "infallible, not subject to the defects of material nature, and divinely guided" to do what we are doing, and if , in fact, this was not true. that would be much worse than calling on someone to show scriptural authorization for the moves they make. a bigger problem would be if those individuals, actually no better than us, claimed they were far more and therein ruined the spiritual experience for someone else with their deceptions.

 

"we will be fools if we think ISKCON as an institution that should be perfect...it will not."

 

some of us "fools" know that the REAL ISKCON is perfect, hence our difficulties with what some now see as a charade of what once was.

 

 

"Gaudiya Vaishnavism is the teachings and not the flawed guru system.

Arjuna's guru Drona acharya was on the opposite side and Krishna was with Arjuna. So, does that mean Drona acharya is a rascal because he opposed Krishna. Does that mean...Arjuna has to disrespect his Guru and bad mouth his Guru?"

 

not bad mouth him, just see that he was slain BECAUSE he was a brahmin who had come to put money and power and prestige as more important than his brahminical upbringing. so let it be written, so let it be done.

 

 

"Similarly...there may be mistakes in the Guru system or a Guru himself,"

 

if there are "mistakes" in the "Guru", then there must be mistakes in "the guru system", becuase REAL GURU doesn't commit mistakes(by definition).

these are the kinds of problems that are created by equivocating over the definition of words like Guru and Acarya. hence, the need for civil discussion to clarify issues.

 

 

"Argument will not lead you anywhere"

which is itself an argument that may serve to proof his point, hence it is his conclusion.