Male & Female Jivas?

[Guest guest]

Sometimes I have read that our soul is genderless. Perhaps this is just Mayavadi teaching. Because, in reading the Srimad Bhagavatam it describes males and females in Vaikunthaloka. So does our soul-body take on the form or disposition of one particular gender when we reach Vaikuntha?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Sometimes I have read that our soul is genderless. Perhaps this is just Mayavadi teaching. Because, in reading the Srimad Bhagavatam it describes males and females in Vaikunthaloka. So does our soul-body take on the form or disposition of one particular gender when we reach Vaikuntha?

 

of course. there are gopis, and there are gopas, cows and bulls in Vaikuntha - why not? it is all based on our desire to serve the Lord in a particular way. in the material world it is reflected in a perverted way when we take on particular sex out of a desire to enjoy in a particular way.

[theist 1]

 

of course. there are gopis, and there are gopas, cows and bulls in Vaikuntha - why not? it is all based on our desire to serve the Lord in a particular way. in the material world it is reflected in a perverted way when we take on particular sex out of a desire to enjoy in a particular way.

 

This is why I wonder about some of the criticism directed to those who practice the mood of a manjari. I have heard of those who prematurely assume they know their identity as this manjari or another and falsely assume they have entered into that mood while still in material body identification and can understand their mistake.

 

However there are also those who understand they are still in the sadhana stage and have chosen to concentrate their practice on developing this particular mood. How can this be wrong as long as the sadhaka maintains a level head about the level of his own realization in regards to his practice?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

This is why I wonder about some of the criticism directed to those who practice the mood of a manjari.

 

this stuff is well over my head. I'm just a guy struggling with the basics. I have a hard time dealing with the heavy handed criticism of monism in our tradition, as it is one of the main Vedic currents of spirituality, let alone the practice of manjari bhava...

[theist 1]

 

this stuff is well over my head. I'm just a guy struggling with the basics. I have a hard time dealing with the heavy handed criticism of monism in our tradition, as it is one of the main Vedic currents of spirituality, let alone the practice of manjari bhava...

 

Same here. I have never been able to maintain the most basic sadhana program. For me it comes down to the Hare Krsna mantra without all the other helpful ancillaries. Even that I haven't been able to maintain.

 

Nevertheless I am interested in this having a philosophical understanding of this. The spectical of preachers vs.the "Radha kundis" is just to weird and fratricidal

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

Letter to: Hamsaduta

Los Angeles

16 January, 1969

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Regarding your question about my Guru Maharaja, I never told anyone that He was one of the eight saktis. I do not know how you got this news. According to Vaisnava principles, nobody should think or imagine somebody as Krishna, Radharani, or Their associates. Everyone should aspire to follow the footprints of such associates. If somebody thinks that somebody is Radha or Krishna that is not sanctioned by the Vaisnava philosophy. So far as I know, my Guru Maharaja's position was one of the assistants of the manjaris. For the present, it is better not to discuss on these confidential things of a higher level, but you are always welcome to put your genuine questions for an answer. Otherwise, how will you know things as they are?

========================================

[Kulapavana 0]

 

The spectical of preachers vs.the "Radha kundis" is just to weird and fratricidal

 

splitting hairs and loading angels on the head of a pin is a favourite pastime of many religionists. maybe it is their way to remember Krsna?

 

but seriously. the warning must be there or many will join the sahajiya camp, and we all would agree that this is not good.

[Guest guest]

Haribol. Many have criticized Srila Prabhupada, saying he held back from his disciples the raganuga bhakti, the gopi bhava, etc. They infer his warnings against speculating on rasa lila are incorrect, that their way is better.

 

However, Srila Prabhupada, although the warnings were there, did not hold back, in fact, he gave more than any of us can even consider.

 

Srila Prabhupada gave us the worship of Srimati Tulasi devi. His disciple was very successful in cultivating her, and Tulasi became a centerpiece of the movement.

 

If we consider the position of Srimati Tulasi devi, then we can see the full manifestation of Madurya Rasa. Tulasi rests in the hands of Srimati Radharani, and at the feet of Lord Sri Krsna. There is nothing more intimate than this, nothing. Srimati Tulasi devi is the centerpiece of the loving exchange between Sri Sri Radha Krsna. The entire Gaudiya Line, springing from Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, FACILLITATES the transcendental relationship, not imitates, no pretense, just service as maidservant of the loving Couple.

 

All Glories to Srimati Tulasi devi, and all glories to Srila Prabhupadas disciples who lovingly and successfully cared for her to allow us all to have her association.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

Information on the Glories and Worship of Srimati Tulasi Devi

 

 

SRI VRINDA DEVI

The worship of Tulasi is an important aspect of Krishna-Bhakti. Lord Chaitanya Himself instructs Sanatana Gosvami in Chaitanya Caritamrta :

 

"Tadiya means the Tulasi leaves, the devotees of Krishna, the birthplace of Krishna, Mathura, and the Vedic literature Srimad Bhagavatam. Krishna is very eager to see His devotee serve Tulsi, Vaisnavas, Mathura, and Bhagavatam." (Chaitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-Lila 22.125)

 

--

 

 

 

ISKCON FOUNDER-ACARYA SRILA PRABHUPADA STATES;

"... I was very much anxious to introduce this worship of Tulasi plant amongst our Society members, but it has not become successful til now, therefore, when I hear that you have got this opportunity, my pleasure does not have any bounds...."(letter to Govinda Dasi, 4/7/1970)

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

Haribol. Many have criticized Srila Prabhupada, saying he held back from his disciples the raganuga bhakti, the gopi bhava, etc. They infer his warnings against speculating on rasa lila are incorrect, that their way is better.

 

However, Srila Prabhupada, although the warnings were there, did not hold back, in fact, he gave more than any of us can even consider.

 

Srila Prabhupada gave us the worship of Srimati Tulasi devi. His disciple was very successful in cultivating her, and Tulasi became a centerpiece of the movement.

 

If we consider the position of Srimati Tulasi devi, then we can see the full manifestation of Madurya Rasa. Tulasi rests in the hands of Srimati Radharani, and at the feet of Lord Sri Krsna. There is nothing more intimate than this, nothing. Srimati Tulasi devi is the centerpiece of the loving exchange between Sri Sri Radha Krsna. The entire Gaudiya Line, springing from Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, FACILLITATES the transcendental relationship, not imitates, no pretense, just service as maidservant of the loving Couple.

 

All Glories to Srimati Tulasi devi, and all glories to Srila Prabhupadas disciples who lovingly and successfully cared for her to allow us all to have her association.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Prabhu anybody can openly get any book of the Goswamins and read about Manjari-bhava. ! Why are devotees bothered by it? Are they saying Prabhupada is in a different line to the Goswamins? When people say this they look silly, because they are saying Prabhupada gave then Vaidhi-bhakti. Am i right? Not anything higher? So they are defeating thenselves. We JUST talking about it. We not thier yet. JESUS.

[Puru_Das 0]

 

This is why I wonder about some of the criticism directed to those who practice the mood of a manjari. I have heard of those who prematurely assume they know their identity as this manjari or another and falsely assume they have entered into that mood while still in material body identification and can understand their mistake.

 

However there are also those who understand they are still in the sadhana stage and have chosen to concentrate their practice on developing this particular mood. How can this be wrong as long as the sadhaka maintains a level head about the level of his own realization in regards to his practice?

 

 

 

Only fully self realized uttama adhikari Vaisnavas can practice raganuga bhajana with genuine realization their siddha svarupa. Nothing wrong if we keep the ultimate goal of our sadhana in mind without becoming sahajiyas. Otherwise why are we trying for Krsna prema under the guidance of the followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.?

 

Bhajana must be done under the anugatya (guidance) of sad guru. Most of us are all very far from real bhajana, and at present we can try to do sadhana and arcana. We cannot immitate the behavior of Srila Raghunatha Das Gosvami but we can appreciate the quality of his bhajana get at least some understanding of the goal of our vaidhi practices.

 

from: Vilapa Kusamanjali of Srila Raghunatha das Gosvami

 

Text Seven

 

aty-utkatena nitaram virahanalena

dandahyamana-hrdaya kila kapi dasi

ha svamini ksanam iha pranayena gadham

akrandhanena vidhura vilapami padyaih

 

aty-utkatena—very great; nitaram—always; viraha—separation; analena—by the fire; dandahyamana—being burned; hrdaya—heart; kila—indeed; kapi—some; dasi—maidservant; ha—Alas!; svamini—mistress; ksanam—for a moment; iha—here; pranayena—with love; gadham—intense; akrandhanena—by crying; vidhura—suffering; vilapami—I lament; padyaih—with verses.

 

Translation

 

O Svamini, my mistress, Radhe! The heart of this maidservant constantly burns in a great fire of separation from You. Being thus afflicted and crying with great love, I lament in the following verses.

 

Commentary

 

Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has written two kinds of prayers, or two kinds of slokas. Some of the slokas are written while he is absorbed in his internal svarupavesa as Rati or Tulasi Manjari, the maidservant of Srimati Radhika. Other slokas are written in his sadhakavesa as Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, a parikara of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Even his form as a sadhaka is not material. Both forms and avesas, identities, are fully nitya, eternal, and cinmaya, transcendental; but one is with Radhika and Krsna and the other with Caitanya Mahaprabhu. As Raghunatha dasa Gosvami he is in his sadhaka-sarira, his form as a sadhaka, and as Rati Manjari she is in his siddha-sarira or siddhavastha.

 

Avesa means to become so absorbed in the object of one's meditation that one becomes as if one with that personality. The example is of the iron in fire becoming one with the fire. The iron takes on the qualities of fire and acts exactly as fire. The fire is working, not the iron. When Krsna left the rasa dance, the gopis became so absorbed in Him that at last they thought, "I am Krsna". They began to play on flutes, and they each told the others, "O, see how sweetly I’m moving and how I’m laughing. I’m Krsna." One gopi told another, "She is Putana and I’m Krsna." This is all avesa. If one has avesa in Krsna bhajana, then it is actually bhajana; otherwise it is like arcana. The practitioner should have avesa.

There are two kinds of svarupavesa. One is Krsna's svarupa and the other is our svarupa. What is our svarupa? It may be as a father, mother, or gopi. In a sense, the words vesa and svarupa have the same meaning. Jivera 'svarupa’ haya—krsnera ‘nitya-dasa' (Cc. Mad 20.108). The sadhaka will have avesa in the svarupa of Radha and Krsna's associates like Rupa Manjari and his 'guru-manjari', in those who already have that mood for which he has greed.

The word vesa means the appearance and dress of those associates in whom the sadhaka has greed. He will have to take that vesa. If one wants to be a mother, he will have to adopt the vesa of Yasoda—how she looks, how she dresses, what ornaments she wears, etc. If one wants to be father, then he must take the vesa of Nanda Baba. There are two types of vesa, for example, in the case of Rupa and Rati Manjari: Rupa Manjari and Rati Manjari themselves—and also their ornaments, decorations and everything about them.

 

Here in this verse Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is saying, kila kapi dasi. No one can enter the realm of Radhika and Krsna, in the service of Srimati Radhika, in a male form. One can enter there only in a gopi-svarupa. Because Raghunatha dasa Gosvami cannot enter there in his external form, he is saying, "I am kapi dasi; I am any dasi."

Dandahyamana-hrdaya. He is always with Srimati Radhika. Why, then, is he lamenting? He explains, "In this male form I am not seeing Radhika, Krsna, or the gopis." In his external consciousness he is feeling separation, and this also manifests in his internal svarupa as a gopi.

 

Even if a sadhaka is not situated in his internal gopi-bhava, if he possesses some greed he can also follow Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. We are not seeing Radhika, but we can feel sorrow that we are not able to see Her. At first Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is feeling so much separation from Her in his sadhakavesa, and then he enters into his avesa of gopi-bhava. He cries, "O Svamini, I am any dasi. I am sitting on Govardhana and feeling extreme separation from You. I want to offer prayers to Your lotus feet." This is the meaning of Vilapa Kusumanjali. Raghunatha dasa Gosvami says that if Radhika asks, "Why are you doing vilapa? Why are you lamenting?" he will reply, "I cannot bear this virahanala, fire of separation, and that is why I want to reveal my heart's desire to Your lotus feet."

 

". . . Who will feel separation? Those special persons who have realized their immense obligation and indebtedness to gurudeva for all they have received, and who have rendered much service to him with visrambha-bhava, intimacy. They will weep. The consideration that, "I'm so low and my Gurudeva is in such a high stage" will not be there. Awe and reverence will not be there; otherwise one cannot weep. In sastra it is said, visrambhena guror seva—the sevaka performs such intimate service to gurudeva that gurudeva remains always pleased with him. The guru will not consider for even a moment that, "He is my servant and disciple." Instead he will feel that, "He is my heart." Sri Isvara Puripada, the disciple of Srila Madhavendra Puri, and Govinda, the disciple of Isvara Puri, were servants of this caliber. Although this is a rare relationship, it is absolutely necessary for raganuga-bhakti. Without a relationship like this, we cannot weep like Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami.

 

Separation from gurudeva will be experienced on different levels. When we consider how merciful he was and how much greater he is than ourselves, we feel a certain type of sentiment. However, when we remember how near and dear he was and how much he loved us, then we will weep profusely for him."

 

 

". . . The purpose of reading and uttering the prayers of Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is to develop some samskara, impressions, on the heart. Our Guru Maharaja, Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajñana Kesava Gosvam… Maharaja, used to tell us never to sing any songs other than those composed by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Premananda das Thakura, Sri Govinda dasa and other siddha-mahapurusas, perfected, great personalities in our guru-parampara. Because such devotees are empowered and very advanced in bhakti, if we sing their kirtanas something of their bhava will certainly enter our hearts.

 

Translation and Commentary by

Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja

[Puru_Das 0]

". . . Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written a book called Caitanya Mahaprabhu Ki Siksa, (Teachings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu). There, quoting from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, he is discussing rasa-siksa. He explains that when those who only know visaya rasa, and not aprakrita rasa, hear the name of madhurya rasa and some stories from here and there, they have two kinds of ideas. First, some think that if one practices the sadhana to obtain this particular rasa, madhurya-rasa, he will fall down. The second class of persons has faith, but they think that nobody is qualified to have this.

A sahajiya is one who has some sraddha, but he has not reached the stage of rati, bhava. Rati is visuddha-sattva. It does not come from the heart of the sadhaka. It has to come down from the heart of a ragatmika bhakt­a. Rati is not in our hands. It is in the hands of devo­tees who are certainly Krsna bhaktas, and only they can give it. If a man has some sraddha but not yet rati, and he wants to experience this rasa on that unripe sraddha, he tries to experience it by worldly emotions in the name of vibha­va, sattv­ik and vyabhicari. Such a person is called sahaji­ya.

At the stage of sraddha, he wants to create rasa by so-called vibhava, sattvika, anubhava and so on. These can be prac­ticed only at the stage of rati, but he is trying to do so on the platform of sraddha. He doesn't know what is rasa, or what is vibhava, anubhava, sattvika, and vyabhicari. He has neither sthayi bhava nor rati. Sthayi bhava is far away, and he doesn't have even the first stage of rati. Yet, on that sraddha, he wants to do all these things. Such a person is called sahajiya. He is bound to be sahajiya.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura have prohibited this, and in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu and Ujjvala-nilamani it is also pro­hibited. A man who is only at the stage of sraddha and has not gone to that transcendental place should not imagine that, "I am a gopi" or, "I am a kinkari" or, "I am a manjari",and he should not do asta-kaliya smarana paddhati.

Such sahajiyas have tried to follow Vilap-kusumanjali or any of the books of our Gosvami's, but not directly. In order to actually follow, our sraddha must become nishta, nishta must become ruci, ruci must become asakti, and asakti must be turned into bhava, rati. Then we can have that. We can only pray, "We want this, we want this." We should try to develop our bhakti—not immediately try to immerse in that thing.

 

All babajis are not sahajiyas, but almost all are in this category. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura did not approve of them, because they will think bogus things in the name of bhakti and rasa. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained all this in his book.

 

A guru sees whether the disciple's greed is real or not, and whether his sraddha has advanced to asakti. He sees whether or not his disciple is entering rati. We should strictly follow Jaiva Dharma. In Jaiva Dharma we see that the guru disclosed the eleven items like vesa, nama, and so forth, in the end. He taught everything about rasa, and then at the last stage he disclosed the five stages, like sravana dasa and varana dasa, and also the eleven bhavas. He did not do this in the disciple's lower stages. These were revealed, not in Navadv­ipa but in Puri, in the second Vaisnava sanga.

 

Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja

[Puru_Das 0]

 

 

A guru sees whether the disciple's greed is real or not, and whether his sraddha has advanced to asakti. He sees whether or not his disciple is entering rati. We should strictly follow Jaiva Dharma. In Jaiva Dharma we see that the guru disclosed the eleven items like vesa, nama, and so forth, in the end. He taught everything about rasa, and then at the last stage he disclosed the five stages, like sravana dasa and varana dasa, and also the eleven bhavas. He did not do this in the disciple's lower stages. These were revealed, not in Navadv­ipa but in Puri, in the second Vaisnava sanga.

 

Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja

 

some detail from Jaiva Dharma Ch. 26:

http://bvml.org/SBNM/JaivaDharma/26.html

 

"Vijaya and Vrajanatha fell at Sri Gopala Guru Gosvami's feet. They were carried away in the happiness of prema and began to shed tears. Sri Guru Gosvami was very pleased to see their ecstatic sentiments and embraced them. He made them sit down close to him and immediately asked, "I wish to know who you are." When Vijaya and Vrajanatha introduced themselves, Guru Gosvami's eyes began to stream with tears of love. Hearing the name of Srii Navadvipa, he said, "Today I have become blessed by seeing the residents of Sridhama Nabadvipa. Tell me, how are the Vaisnavas in Mayapura, such as Sri Raghunatha das and Goracanda dasa? Are they well? Aho! When I remember Raghunatha das, the memories of my siksa-guru Sri Dasa Gosvami came to my mind."

 

Guru Gosvami called his disciple, Sri Dhyanacandra, and said, “These two mahatmas will take prasada here today.” Sri Dhyanacandra took them both to his room and offered them sri-mahaprasada. Afterwards the three of them discussed many subjects. Dhyanacandra Gosvami was overjoyed when he saw Vijaya Kumara’s vast erudition in Srimad-Bhagavatam, and recognized Vrajanatha as a fine scholar of all the sastras. He related all their discussions to Sri Guru Gosvami, who was also delighted to hear of their expertise in sastra. Sri Gopala Guru Gosvami called them near to him, and said, “You are both very dear to me. Kindly allow me to see you every day, as long as you stay in Sri Purusottama Dhama.”

 

Vijaya Kumara humbly replied, “O Prabhu! Sri Raghunatha dasa Babaji of Sri Mayapura has bestowed great mercy upon us. He has given us so much siksa, and he ordered us to accept instructions at your divine feet.”

 

Guru Gosvami said, “Raghunatha dasa Babaji is a highly learned scholar, and you should follow his instructions thoroughly. If you want to know anything further, you may come here tomorrow afternoon and present your inquiries. You may honor mahaprasada here tomorrow.” They conversed for some time, and then Vijaya and Vrajanatha took permission from Sri Guru Gosvami and returned to Haracandi Sahi.

 

The next day, Vijaya Kumara and Vrajanatha returned to Sri Radha-Kanta Matha at the appointed time. They honored prasada, and then approached Sri Gopala Guru Gosvami. When they had offered their respectful pranama to him, they said, “Prabhu, we want to know about rasa-tattva. Our lives will become successfulwhen we hear about krsna-bhakti-rasa from your lotus mouth. You are the pre-eminent holy master of the Nimananda-sampradaya and you are reigning as jagad-guru on the seat of Sriman Mahaprabhu’s successor, Sri Svarupa Gosvami. We desire to hear rasa-tattva from your divine lips, so that our scholarship may become fruitful.”

[theist 1]

Puru das,

 

I have a question on this statement.

 

 

The word vesa means the appearance and dress of those associates in whom the sadhaka has greed. He will have to take that vesa. If one wants to be a mother, he will have to adopt the vesa of Yasoda—how she looks, how she dresses, what ornaments she wears, etc. If one wants to be father, then he must take the vesa of Nanda Baba. There are two types of vesa, for example, in the case of Rupa and Rati Manjari: Rupa Manjari and Rati Manjari themselves—and also their ornaments, decorations and everything about them.

 

 

 

This sounds like he is speaking of the external look. I must be hearing wrongly.Can you clear this up?

[Puru_Das 0]

 

Puru das,

 

I have a question on this statement.

 

 

 

This sounds like he is speaking of the external look. I must be hearing wrongly.Can you clear this up?

 

I can't possibly explain something so beyond my own limited realization. As far as I can understand he is saying that the spiritual body and the self are not different and a sadhaka has suitable dress for whatever his relationship with Radha and Krsna is. There seems to be some indication that the ornaments and decorations on the siddha svarupa are part of that eternal form. This commentary isn't from a published manuscript, so the English may be unedited and certain subtle points obscure. He says just before:

 

"There are two kinds of svarupavesa. One is Krsna's svarupa and the other is our svarupa. What is our svarupa? It may be as a father, mother, or gopi. In a sense, the words vesa and svarupa have the same meaning. Jivera 'svarupa’ haya—krsnera ‘nitya-dasa' (Cc. Mad 20.108). The sadhaka will have avesa in the svarupa of Radha and Krsna's associates like Rupa Manjari and his 'guru-manjari', in those who already have that mood for which he has greed.

 

 

You can write to him directly if you want a better explanation.

 

In the 39th chapter of Jaiva Dharma

http://bvml.org/SBNM/JaivaDharma/39.html

Gopal Guru Gosvami gives additional information regarding the ekadasa bhavas

 

Vijaya: Kindly explain these ekadasa-bhavas to me thoroughly once again.

Gosvami: The ekadasa-bhavas are: 1) sambandha (relationship), 2) vayasa (age), 3) nama (name), 4) rupa (personal form and beauty),5) yutha (group), 6) vesa (dress), 7) ajna (specific instruction), 8) vasa (residence), 9) seva (exclusive service); 10) parakastha-svasa (the highest summit of emotion, which is the aspirant’s very life breath), and 11) palya-dasi-bhava (the sentiment of a maidservant under the protection of Sri Radha).

Vijaya: What is sambandha (relationship)?

Gosvami: The sentiment of sambandha is the very foundation of this subject. The sentiments with which one relates to Krsna when one establishes sambandha determine one’s corresponding state of perfection (siddhi). One who accepts Krsna as master when he establishes his relationship with Him becomes dasa. One who accepts Krsna as his sakha or son when he establishes his relationship becomes sakha or parent, respectively. One who accepts Him as husband in the marital (svakiya) relationship becomes a beautiful young lady in Dvaraka. Santa-rasa is absent in Vraja, and even dasya-rasa is very inhibited. In any case, this relationship is established according to the worshiper’s ruci.

Your nature is feminine, and your inclination is in parakiya-rasa, so you are a subordinate attendant of Vraja-vanesvari. The sambandha that you have to cultivate and realize fully is: “I am a maidservant of Srimati Radhika’s most confidential attendant maid. Srimati Radhika is the mistress of my very life, and Krsna is Her life; therefore Sri Radha-vallabha Sri Krsna is certainly the Lord of my life.”

Vijaya: I have heard that our acarya, Srila Jiva Gosvami, was in favor of sambandha in svakiya-bhava (the marital relationship). Is this true?

Gosvami: None of the followers of Sriman Mahaprabhu were outside the pure, transcendental parakiya-bhava. Sri Svarupa Gosvami is the sole guru of this transcendental parakiya-rasa. He has given instruction on the purest transcendental parakiya-bhava, and Srila Jiva Gosvami – as well as Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami – followed in his footsteps and maintained thesame opinion. Srila Jiva Gosvami has never cherished any independent sentiments of svakiya-bhajana. However, he observed the scent of svakiya-bhava in some of the upasakas (worshipers) of Vraja. The svakiya-bhava of Vraja is found only where the samartha rati has a scent of samanjasa rati in it. Those who maintain a slight sense of svakiya-bhava when they establish their relationship with Krsna are actually svakiya-upasakas. Srila Jiva Gosvami had both types of disciples: those with suddha parakiya-bhava, and those whose worship was mixed with a sense of svakiya-bhava. Consequently, he left separate instructions according to his disciples’ different inclinations. This fact is clearly established by the sloka: svecchaya likhitam kincit in his Locana-rocani tika on Ujjvalanilamani.

Vijaya: Very well. I have understood that only the unadulterated parakiya-bhajana is accepted in the visuddha (pure) Gaudiya conception. Now that I have understood sambandha, please tell me about vayasa (age).

Gosvami: The sambandha that you have established with Krsna has resulted in your unprecedented and unparalleled intrinsic svarupa (vraja-lalana-svarupa) of a vraja-gopi. Now, to render service in that svarupa, you need to have a suitable age (vayasa). The appropriate age is kaisora (the age from ten to sixteen), also known as vayah-sandhi. In your svarupa, you will begin from the age of ten, and grow up to sixteen years. Vraja-lalana’s do not have the three ages of balya (infancy, ages 0 – 5), pauganda (childhood, ages 5 –10), and vrddha (adulthood), so you should always foster the spiritual identification of being a kisori.

Vijaya: Please explain to me about nama (name). I have already received the name of my svarupa, but still, please give me firm instructions in this regard.

Gosvami: After hearing about the services of various damsels of Vraja, your own service tendency has awakened. According to that natural tendency for service, you are a maidservant of Radhika- sakhi. The name of that maidservant is your name. Your Gurudeva has given you your name after examining your inclination or ruci. That name is to be considered your nitya-nama. You will be delighted (manorama) by this name among the vraja-gopis.

Vijaya: Prabhu, now please tell me about rupa (eternal form).

Gosvami: Your intrinsic, transcendental identity is that of a beautiful, youthful kisori, which means that your Sri Gurudeva has defined your siddha-rupa according to your inclination and ruci. How can one be the maidservant of Srimati Radhika without having been endowed with an inconceivably divine form and personal beauty?

Vijaya: Please consolidate my faith regarding yutha (group).

Gosvami: Srimati Radhika Herself is the yuthesvari (leader of the yutha), and you have to live as an attendant in the group of one of Her eight principal sakhis. Your Gurudeva has put you under the guidance of Srimati Lalita, so now you should render loving service to Yuthesvari Srimati Radhika and Lilamaya Sri Krsna, under Sri Lalita’s order.

 

I don't see anything specific about the vesa.

[theist 1]

" I can't possibly explain something so beyond my own limited realization. As far as I can understand he is saying that the spiritual body and the self are not different and a sadhaka has suitable dress for whatever his relationship with Radha and Krsna is. There seems to be some indication that the ornaments and decorations on the siddha svarupa are part of that eternal form. This commentary isn't from a published manuscript, so the English may be unedited and certain subtle points obscure. He says just before:"

 

Yes maybe that is it. As written it seems to give a certain impression. that maybe was not intended. Seems like an important point that needs to be clarified.We know the result of people thinking they are gopis and trying to dress as one and play like one even though they are still materially identified.

[Guest guest]

What is the difference between a Manjari and a Sakhi? Are they both the same?

 

 

This is why I wonder about some of the criticism directed to those who practice the mood of a manjari. I have heard of those who prematurely assume they know their identity as this manjari or another and falsely assume they have entered into that mood while still in material body identification and can understand their mistake.

 

However there are also those who understand they are still in the sadhana stage and have chosen to concentrate their practice on developing this particular mood. How can this be wrong as long as the sadhaka maintains a level head about the level of his own realization in regards to his practice?

[Puru_Das 0]

 

What is the difference between a Manjari and a Sakhi? Are they both the same?

 

Srimati Radhika has five kinds of sakhis (gopi friends): sakhi, nitya-sakhi, prana-sakhi, priya-sakhi and priya-narma-sakhis.

 

1. Sakhis--Danistha is an example.

 

These sakhis love and serve Srimati Radhika and Krsna, but they are slightly more inclined towards Krsna.

 

2. Nitya--sakhis and 3. prana--sakhis are the only two kinds of sakhis who are in the category of tad-tad-bhava-icchatmika.

 

It is their service that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu ultimately came to give the jivas. These sakhis serve both Radha and Krsna, with a tendency to favor Srimati Radhika and render service to Her. They obey only Her. The prana-sakhis, like Rupa manjari and Rati manjari, being even more intimately connected with Her, are naturally the leaders of the nitya-sakhis.

 

4. Priya-sakhis and 5. priya-narma-sakhis--Lalita and Visakha are examples.

 

Among the sakhis the priya-sakhis and the priya-narma-sakhis are most dear, and they both serve yugala-kisora, the divine youthful couple, but with a slight tendency towards Srimati Radhika. Both these sakhis have so much power that they can sometimes chastise Radhika and at other times chastise Krsna.

 

The difference between the nitya and prana-sakhis, and the priya and priya-narma-sakhis is that the nitya-sakhis and prana-sakhis are called manjaris. They do not do anything for their own personal relationship with Krsna. They do everything for Srimati Radhika. They have no desire to taste anything for themselves. This bhava, which is called tad-tad-bhava-icchatmika, is also unnata-ujjvala-rasa. It is this type of unnata-ujjvala-rasa that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to distribute.

 

This is a very high topic and I am speaking it for only a very few, rare persons.

excerpted from:

The Purpose of Lord Caitanya's Descent

[Excerpted from Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja's "Nectar Sprinkles on Australia"]

http://bvml.org/SBNM/tpolcd.htm

[Guest guest]

Thanks prabhu.

 

I agree that this is a very high topic and meant for only a very few, rare persons.

 

 

Srimati Radhika has five kinds of sakhis (gopi friends): sakhi, nitya-sakhi, prana-sakhi, priya-sakhi and priya-narma-sakhis.

 

1. Sakhis--Danistha is an example.

 

These sakhis love and serve Srimati Radhika and Krsna, but they are slightly more inclined towards Krsna.

 

2. Nitya--sakhis and 3. prana--sakhis are the only two kinds of sakhis who are in the category of tad-tad-bhava-icchatmika.

 

It is their service that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu ultimately came to give the jivas. These sakhis serve both Radha and Krsna, with a tendency to favor Srimati Radhika and render service to Her. They obey only Her. The prana-sakhis, like Rupa manjari and Rati manjari, being even more intimately connected with Her, are naturally the leaders of the nitya-sakhis.

 

4. Priya-sakhis and 5. priya-narma-sakhis--Lalita and Visakha are examples.

 

Among the sakhis the priya-sakhis and the priya-narma-sakhis are most dear, and they both serve yugala-kisora, the divine youthful couple, but with a slight tendency towards Srimati Radhika. Both these sakhis have so much power that they can sometimes chastise Radhika and at other times chastise Krsna.

 

The difference between the nitya and prana-sakhis, and the priya and priya-narma-sakhis is that the nitya-sakhis and prana-sakhis are called manjaris. They do not do anything for their own personal relationship with Krsna. They do everything for Srimati Radhika. They have no desire to taste anything for themselves. This bhava, which is called tad-tad-bhava-icchatmika, is also unnata-ujjvala-rasa. It is this type of unnata-ujjvala-rasa that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to distribute.

 

This is a very high topic and I am speaking it for only a very few, rare persons.

excerpted from:

The Purpose of Lord Caitanya's Descent

[Excerpted from Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja's "Nectar Sprinkles on Australia"]