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Danielle Field

Socialism and Vaishnavism

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Why even worry if it packaged in an attractive package ? In my own life I have managed to get several people cracking open books just by being me. The see the once drugged out violent child standing in front of them with a serene smile and they ask.

 

 

 

I'm just sayiong wear a clean kurta, basically. Srila Bhakti Siddhanta was prepared to have meat served to get people to listen to His message.

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First of all it would be important to know how far you came in understanding varnashrama dharma, the vedic idea of socialism? You say you're a socialist, could you explain this more precise how you define socialism?

 

" Varnashram system is set up with a view of the society where people stay in their allocated place or level. While socialism tries to lift everyone including the lowest person to the highest level. Socialism is more materialistic, it deals with economics while Vaishnavism deals with people's souls, their inner selves and what happens to them after they die. One is at a loss to find any idea of socialism in vedas. One should not try to see new ideas of equality in the philosophy of vedas."

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I believe that from the soil of a socialist society varnashrama dhama would manifest naturally, organically. Capitalism is completely alien to spiritual values and brings degradation in all directions. Socialist values lend themselves to spiritual development and should be fought for in order to create the right environment for varnashrama dhama to develop.

 

No one has authorised this thinking. Prabhupada never instructed that we should fight for socialism. I understand that. I do believe that capitalist thinking has permeated ISKCON, however, and that the antidote to that is a more left wing approach to social problems. Prabhupada was not here to instruct when ISKCON became an organisation synonymous with control and bullying. Socialism is about the kind of world we could create if we got rid of capitalism. It is not a system set in stone and would flex according to the popular will by its nature. I believe if Capitalism was eroded the natural will would flow.

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I believe that from the soil of a socialist society varnashrama dhama would manifest naturally, organically. Capitalism is completely alien to spiritual values and brings degradation in all directions. Socialist values lend themselves to spiritual development and should be fought for in order to create the right environment for varnashrama dhama to develop.

 

No one has authorised this thinking. Prabhupada never instructed that we should fight for socialism. I understand that. I do believe that capitalist thinking has permeated ISKCON, however, and that the antidote to that is a more left wing approach to social problems. Prabhupada was not here to instruct when ISKCON became an organisation synonymous with control and bullying. Socialism is about the kind of world we could create if we got rid of capitalism. It is not a system set in stone and would flex according to the popular will by its nature. I believe if Capitalism was eroded the natural will would flow.

 

"Capitalism is completely alien to spiritual values and brings degradation in all directions. Socialist values lend themselves to spiritual development and should be fought for in order to create the right environment for varnashrama dhama to develop."

 

Capitalism is good! Even in ancient times this system existed but the Maharaja was supervisor and virtual owner of everything. He/She & his descendants rule for a very long time and then the population votes for a new lineage! Freedom of everything is there. Again, for a population to vote for a leader they must all be extremely intelligent (IQ > 266) otherwise bad people can come into power. Usually this last for an extremely extremely long time until some evil person changes it but then it comes back still.

Is an extremely good system! The businessmen produce whatever and everything they want to but follow the country law system (like a highway road system, everyone follows it)!

 

Socialism is for certain country/race which cannot flourish under mono-democratic captialism!

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Capitalism has not existed since ancient times. That is feudalism. Capitalism is an anachronism that began to develop on the back of the slave trade. The profits from the slave trade enabled the mercantile class to break free from the feudal lords and kings. If you can begin to understand that Capitalism is an economic system with no precedent in recorded human history that began to fully flourish with the onset of the industrial revolution in the 18th century, you will begin to understand what is so wrong and ultimatley reversible about it.

 

Businessmen are Vaishyas. They are not driven by compassion and wisdom but the quickest and most effective way to make a profit for themselves. As I have argued previously in this discussion, the reason God's earth is in such a terrible condition is precisely because the vaishyas are not capable of providing peace due to their varna. What kind of braindead society actually wishes its Vaishyas to act in the capacity of the Brahminical class? This one.

 

I am arguing not for socialism in and of itself but for socialism as the means to overthrow capitalism. I am arguing for this because I have seen how profiteering has rotted at the heart of ISKCON due to vaishyas usurping positions of power. And why shouldn't they? It is their nature and their age. The time is ripe for the vaishya. And then it is time of the sudra and the lotus of human culture closes in the dark night of ignorance.

 

My argument is why let the vaishyas rule. Isn't there supposed to be a golden age upon us? Are we not fighting for a better world than one dictated by the highest profit at the lowest outlay? Capitalism is in the process of hitting rock bottom. It can't sink any lower any faster. There is no sense to the vaishya principle of profit without the guiding force of the other varnas being represented. It leads to destruction.

 

At least try and follow my argument to that degree and then maybe I can take the discussion further after that. Capitalism is Vaishyaism. There is nothing glorious or holy about it. It is wanton and lustful materialism gone mental.

 

Why on earth am I having so much difficultly convincing aspirant vaishnavas that there is something wrong with businessmen running the world? Try and realise that businessmen are running ISKCON too. Thats why it was so horrible living in an ISKCON temple. Thats why the leaders of ISKCON at the time didn't understand what was wrong with racketeering and abuse. Eki Ha for profit!

 

The goal of profit permeates the whole of society. A vaishnava should be seeking ways to bring that to a halt, not advocate it as inevitable and holy.

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Capitalism has not existed since ancient times. That is feudalism. Capitalism is an anachronism that began to develop on the back of the slave trade. The profits from the slave trade enabled the mercantile class to break free from the feudal lords and kings. If you can begin to understand that Capitalism is an economic system with no precedent in recorded human history that began to fully flourish with the onset of the industrial revolution in the 18th century, you will begin to understand what is so wrong and ultimatley reversible about it.

 

Businessmen are Vaishyas. They are not driven by compassion and wisdom but the quickest and most effective way to make a profit for themselves. As I have argued previously in this discussion, the reason God's earth is in such a terrible condition is precisely because the vaishyas are not capable of providing peace due to their varna. What kind of braindead society actually wishes its Vaishyas to act in the capacity of the Brahminical class? This one.

 

I am arguing not for socialism in and of itself but for socialism as the means to overthrow capitalism. I am arguing for this because I have seen how profiteering has rotted at the heart of ISKCON due to vaishyas usurping positions of power. And why shouldn't they? It is their nature and their age. The time is ripe for the vaishya. And then it is time of the sudra and the lotus of human culture closes in the dark night of ignorance.

 

My argument is why let the vaishyas rule. Isn't there supposed to be a golden age upon us? Are we not fighting for a better world than one dictated by the highest profit at the lowest outlay? Capitalism is in the process of hitting rock bottom. It can't sink any lower any faster. There is no sense to the vaishya principle of profit without the guiding force of the other varnas being represented. It leads to destruction.

 

At least try and follow my argument to that degree and then maybe I can take the discussion further after that. Capitalism is Vaishyaism. There is nothing glorious or holy about it. It is wanton and lustful materialism gone mental.

 

Why on earth am I having so much difficultly convincing aspirant vaishnavas that there is something wrong with businessmen running the world? Try and realise that businessmen are running ISKCON too. Thats why it was so horrible living in an ISKCON temple. Thats why the leaders of ISKCON at the time didn't understand what was wrong with racketeering and abuse. Eki Ha for profit!

 

The goal of profit permeates the whole of society. A vaishnava should be seeking ways to bring that to a halt, not advocate it as inevitable and holy.

 

Wow! You have covinced me. I am a Swaminaryan Vaishnava. And I am blown away by this thread and your replies. I agree with alot of what you have said. As a devotee of Sahajanand(Swaminaryan), who was the social reformer of his time, I find you inspirational.

 

I would love for you to do a conclusive synopsis on Socialism and the Swaminrayan faith, particularly BAPS sect. One of our founding philosophies, is social service as a means of bringing one closer to God.

 

http://www.swaminarayan.org/introduction/index.htm

 

 

Thread on Swaminarayan Hinduism

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hinduism/443252-swaminarayan-faith.html

 

Documentary on Swaminarayan Hinduism

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Al Jazeera God's Business Swaminarayan Hinduism 1/3

 

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Al Jazeera God's Business Swaminarayan Hinduism 2/3

 

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Al Jazeera God's Business Swaminarayan Hinduism 3/3

 

 

I would like you to write an article for the Digital Shikshapatri site. Regarding Shree Swaminaryan, socialism, and how social justice is a relevant to contemporary faith.

 

http://www.shikshapatri.org.uk/~imagedb/content.php/articles?expand=665

 

 

To understand Sahajanand social message, you need to know about his life. And his socio-spiritual work.

 

Life: Socio-Spiritual Works

 

 

Bhagwan Swaminarayan's Life:

http://www.swaminarayan.org/lordswaminarayan/index.htm

 

 

Also I am petition for a BAPS newspaper online. I would love to keep in contact with you so you could write articles for us. Your insight would be greatly appreciated. It might take a year or two, if the project is solo. Less if BAPS is directly involved. Anyway my email is celinamahek@. Feel free to contact me at anytime. We can talk about different projects.

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Socialism is a fantastic tool for introducing people to the concept of consciousness expansion and its also a practical means to help people gain a sense of the world in which they live in. I wish I had had an opportunity to present those ideas to Prabhupada to see what he would have thought, but that I cannot do. I am not remotely convinced anyone as yet have convincingly responded to this with Prabhupada's mood and so I guess I'll never know.

 

I think plenty of leaders/Acharys of Sanatana Dharma, would be interested in your ideas. I would love one of you papers to be presented to Pramukh Swami of BAPS. It would be a great thing to present some of you revolutionary ideas to some who is qualifies to espouse them.

 

I've been a non-active socialist for years. I knew what I believed in, but didn't know what it fell under. I would like to apply my beliefs to my politics and become a spiritual socialist. I also would like to synchronize socialism with BAPS Sanstha. And develop a full flegde ideology, political, economic system such as Swaminarayan socialism. Also systems for banking that are in accordance with Vedic teaching.

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Capitalism has not existed since ancient times. That is feudalism. Capitalism is an anachronism that began to develop on the back of the slave trade. The profits from the slave trade enabled the mercantile class to break free from the feudal lords and kings. If you can begin to understand that Capitalism is an economic system with no precedent in recorded human history that began to fully flourish with the onset of the industrial revolution in the 18th century, you will begin to understand what is so wrong and ultimatley reversible about it.

 

Businessmen are Vaishyas. They are not driven by compassion and wisdom but the quickest and most effective way to make a profit for themselves. As I have argued previously in this discussion, the reason God's earth is in such a terrible condition is precisely because the vaishyas are not capable of providing peace due to their varna. What kind of braindead society actually wishes its Vaishyas to act in the capacity of the Brahminical class? This one.

 

I am arguing not for socialism in and of itself but for socialism as the means to overthrow capitalism. I am arguing for this because I have seen how profiteering has rotted at the heart of ISKCON due to vaishyas usurping positions of power. And why shouldn't they? It is their nature and their age. The time is ripe for the vaishya. And then it is time of the sudra and the lotus of human culture closes in the dark night of ignorance.

 

My argument is why let the vaishyas rule. Isn't there supposed to be a golden age upon us? Are we not fighting for a better world than one dictated by the highest profit at the lowest outlay? Capitalism is in the process of hitting rock bottom. It can't sink any lower any faster. There is no sense to the vaishya principle of profit without the guiding force of the other varnas being represented. It leads to destruction.

 

At least try and follow my argument to that degree and then maybe I can take the discussion further after that. Capitalism is Vaishyaism. There is nothing glorious or holy about it. It is wanton and lustful materialism gone mental.

 

Why on earth am I having so much difficultly convincing aspirant vaishnavas that there is something wrong with businessmen running the world? Try and realise that businessmen are running ISKCON too. Thats why it was so horrible living in an ISKCON temple. Thats why the leaders of ISKCON at the time didn't understand what was wrong with racketeering and abuse. Eki Ha for profit!

 

The goal of profit permeates the whole of society. A vaishnava should be seeking ways to bring that to a halt, not advocate it as inevitable and holy.

 

"If you can begin to understand that Capitalism is an economic system with no precedent in recorded human history that began to fully flourish with the onset of the industrial revolution in the 18th century, you will begin to understand what is so wrong and ultimatley reversible about it."

 

i don't see your wrongs with capitalism. i do with communism and a little with socialism. could our modern problems exist with socialism? are wars possible with socialism?

 

the problem now is business people abusing the system with no politicians managing it properly, not capitalism. you know right now, we don't even have pure capitalism but a mixture of socialism and capitalism in USA. I believe 40 and 60 is what i heard but i'd say more like 30 and 70%.

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The problem here is that you are referring to state led demand management systems as socialist. They are not. They are a way of smoothing over the cracks in capitalism. Capitalism is a global system. It couldn't function any other way. Stalinist Russia was a state capitalist society not a socialist one. Stalin led Russia as one large corporation that related to the wider world through this prism. So the problem here is defining what we mean by socialism and capitalism.

 

If you could begin to accept that we are living in a society that operates for and solely facilitates the wishes of the vaishya class then you would see that it is not a question of who rules, it is the system that corrupts. It doesn't matter whether or not Tony Blair or George Bush are privately good men, or bad men for that matter. Their job is to secure business interests. Anyone can go into bourgeois politics with whatever good intentions they wish. It makes no difference. The system itself services greed.

 

This system that services greed has infected Prabhupada's once proud society. It has infiltrated and subverted every religious principle by making the modus operendi of all organisations within a capitalist society to service profit. Varnashrama dhama is revolutionary. It can be nothing but. We cannot fit in with a society as corrupt as this and hope to change it gradually from within. We have suffered from that principle to the point where now all our temples are able to do is try and break clear at the bank while supporting the increasingly flamboyant activities of their corrupt leaders.

 

Our philosophy is stronger and deeper than capitalism. My interest in socialism is borne of the fact that socialists understand exactly what is wrong with capitalism. They understand how it permeates and destroys all that is good in human nature. It pitches brother against sister, black against white. Dividium et imperium.

 

Try and understand that the ruling powers have a vested interest in hoodwinking the mass of people that the current situation cannot and will not change. This is why socialists are presented as such bogeymen. They are not. I suggest that you are not fully aware of what capitalism and socialism actually are, which is fine. Most people are not, even those with high class educations and powerful positions. Socialism is very much like Vaishnavism in that regard. Its a well kept secret that is busting to be released from the predjudice that confines it.

 

Capitalism and socialism cannot be mixed. There is no third way. Both are mutually exclusive. State led demand management policies pursued to save capitalism from its endless cycles of boom and bust do not equate to socialism. Socialism is the emancipation of human kind from the endless pursuit of material gain. It is for this reason I think vaishnavas should show a more informed interest in its actual tenets.

 

Wars are good for business. They enable arms manufacturers to continually ply their trade and they also in the current context allow rich nations to rob from poor nations under the guise of "regime change". In a socialist society the fundamental principle would be to protect human life and enable human culture to flourish and grow. Capitalism undermines this principle by putting a price on human life and labour. I believe it is possible for human beings to live without war. We have to start by operating under an economic system that doesn't depend on war and the permanent arms economy. I don't need wars, do you? But then we don't have empires to protect. But who needs empires? Asuras!

 

We have to think out of the box now and that is all I am trying to do because I have not found suitable answers to my own questions other than that I believe a better world is possible because Prabhupada says. Now I believe a better world is possible because I have read some Marxist literature also and I can see that economically peace is feasible also.

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Hey Celina. I'd overlooked your response. Sorry about that. I'm a bit like Tinkerbell in the Peter Pan film. I only seem to notice the negative responses and then I just end up being a bit rude to people who are supportive. I've never heard of BAPS before so I'm going to have to research all that info, but I thought I'd just write you a quick note to say thanks and acknowledge your response.

 

One thing I would like to know before I begin researching is what your position on Prabhupada is? In truth I have only been exposed to Prabhupada's teachings and the fear of propogating a position contradictory to his wishes sits heavily on my heart. I do find myself contradicting Prabhupada's teachings regarding socialism, but I feel confident that this is because Prabhupada was challenging a perverted analysis of state socialsim which is a mockerey of socialist priniciples in essence. This is essentially why I began this thread.

 

I have not got anywhere within Isckon trying to advocate this position and if I can find a sympathetic ear elsewhere then the temptation is very strong. I am convinced that Prabhupada projected the light of the Bhagavat and would feel very compromised if I was forced to challenge this perception.

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Hey Celina. I'd overlooked your response. Sorry about that. I'm a bit like Tinkerbell in the Peter Pan film. I only seem to notice the negative responses and then I just end up being a bit rude to people who are supportive. I've never heard of BAPS before so I'm going to have to research all that info, but I thought I'd just write you a quick note to say thanks and acknowledge your response.

 

One thing I would like to know before I begin researching is what your position on Prabhupada is? In truth I have only been exposed to Prabhupada's teachings and the fear of propogating a position contradictory to his wishes sits heavily on my heart. I do find myself contradicting Prabhupada's teachings regarding socialism, but I feel confident that this is because Prabhupada was challenging a perverted analysis of state socialsim which is a mockerey of socialist priniciples in essence. This is essentially why I began this thread.

 

I have not got anywhere within Isckon trying to advocate this position and if I can find a sympathetic ear elsewhere then the temptation is very strong. I am convinced that Prabhupada projected the light of the Bhagavat and would feel very compromised if I was forced to challenge this perception.

 

Hi. BAPS does not speak negatively on any religion. Especially fellow Vaishnava Sampradayas. As far as I know there are no statements against Prabhupada or ISKCON from anyone in our Sanstha. I know that there are various Vaishnavas here who do not accept Sri Swaminarayan as an avatar of Sri Krishna. Or accept BAPS or the Shree Swaminarayan Sampradaya as an authentic Sampradaya. That is clear after reading threads on Swaminarayan here.

 

I am not asking you to advocate or convert to Swaminarayan philosophy. I value your opinions on Socialism. And I think your opinion would be valued in BAPS Sanstha.

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http://www.lifepositive.com/spirit/spirit-centers/swaminarayan.asp

 

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#0066ff><TD width="85%">

 

FROM GURU TO GOD

 

 

 

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By Suma Varughese

swami2.gif

One of the fastest growing religious movements in India, the Swaminarayan Sampradaya tempers spectacular festivals with an unquestioning life of faith

In the closing months of 1995, the blasé city of Bombay was shaken awake by a spiritual festival of massive proportions. For over 37 days—from end November to end December—100-odd acres of derelict land in downtown Chembur was transformed into an enchanting fairyland. Intricate archways, elaborate models of temples and massive art pieces in cane, jute and bamboo recreated a breathtaking vista of India culture.

Within the grounds, interactive media, dioramas, panoramic scenes and 3-D exhibits vividly highlighted the festival theme of a beautiful, borderless world. Spirituality doesn't interest Bombayites unless conveyed in style. Which is why the sophisticated aesthetics and ambitious dimensions of this festival impressed them.

As for the seamless logistics of organizing such a mega event, even corporate Bombay went rushing to pick up a few tips. Normally, spirituality exists in different dimension from uptown hip Bombay. This event bridged the gap by conveying the best of Indian tradition in an attractive and contemporary fashion. The name of the organizers became a new mantra: Swaminarayan.

Earlier, in August 1995, London dailies had marveled at the execution and the logistics of a fully traditional Hindu temple, the first of its kind outside India. Around 2,820 tonnes of Bulgarian limestone and 2,000 tonnes of Italian Carrara marble were shipped to India, craved and sculpted by sthapitas, and shipped back to London. The finished piece, an intricately sculpted elegant structure in cream marble, received unqualified praise. The Sunday Telegraph called it the "most remarkable London monument of the late 20th century".

 

The name behind this effort: Swaminarayan. And then there's Akshardham. Built to commemorate the centenary of one of its erstwhile spiritual heads, Yogiji Maharaj, Akshardham is a stunning monument to the religion's founder, Lord Swaminarayan. Situated about 25 km from Ahmedabad, in Gandhinagar, the scope of this venture recalls the splendor of Mughal architecture. The questions beg themselves. What is this organization, with a penchant for the spectacular, all about? Where did it appear from? How did it laminate a 5,000-year-old tradition with such contemporary sheen?

 

Integration of the past with the present, constant acceptance of and adaptation to circumstances are, of course, the distinguishing marks of Indian civilization, and the reason for its survival. Even so, this particular organization's ease in straddling the two is noteworthy. Perhaps the credit goes to the pragmatism of the Gujarati, who constitutes almost the entire organization, for the movement originated in Gujarat, and has remained largely true to its roots.

 

While its ascetics embrace the vow of poverty, money generates a healthy respect among followers. Despite its close adherence to Vedic tenets crossing the seven seas is not polluting. The sampradaya is richly cross-fertilized by followers from East Africa the UK, the USA and the Middle East—in short wherever the enterprizing Gujarati (one of the most successful business communities in India) went in search of business. Pujas (ritualistic worship), temples and pilgrimages, the paraphernalia of bhakti (devotion), co-exist with spectacular festivals, personality development, karate and computer classes. The ascetics wear unstitched saffron and embrace what one may consider archaic rules prohibiting them from looking at or talking to women.

 

Many are graduates from IITs, IIMs and even Cambridge. Such assurance of bearing is partly responsible for its popularity. Raymond Brady Williams, professor of religion, Wabash College, Cambridge, writes in his book, A New Face of Hinduism: the Swaminarayan Religion, that it is one of the fastest growing Hindu movement in the subcontinent. Williams was referring to the Swaminarayan Sampardaya as a whole.

 

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swami1.gifThe group we are concerned with a breakaway from the parent organization, called the Bochasanwasi Sri Akshar Purushottam Sanstha (BAPS). But Williams' observation applies more acutely to the BAPS. It has over a million members all over the world, 350 temples, 1,100 centers, 1,700 youth forums, 2,300 child forums, 625 centers for women and a network of socially relevant activities. These include educational projects, medical camps and subsidized medicare. Other initiatives include dowry free marriages, well-recharging, de-addiction drives and disaster management.

The momentum keeps increasing. Another Akshardham is being planned in Nairobi and New Delhi. Temples like the one in London are coming up in Chicago and Nairobi. By Indian standards, the Swaminarayan faith is new, only 200 years old. Its greater concern for social up-lift, considerable relaxation of the caste system, and the relative sincerity with which it is practiced can all be attributed to its newness.

But the movement's life force lies in its overwhelming devotion to the guru. The Swaminarayan faith is cast in the classic Vaishnava bhakti mould. Salvation is through the worship of God in human form; the modes include rituals, prayer, pilgrimages, and above all surrender. Among the BAPS, the focus on avatars is further strengthened by the belief that Swaminarayan, the founder, is Parabrahman (the ultimate reality, Godhead).

Furthermore, it is believed that he had promised to always be present to his followers in the person of his successors. Each spiritual head, therefore, is the abode of God. It is impossible to miss the fervent devotion directed towards the present spiritual head of BAPS, Pramukh Swami Maharaj." There was much excitement in the BAPS' temple at Dadar, Mumbai. Pramukh Swami was here, back from a long trip to Nairobi, and the devotees were eager for darshan.

Swamishri or Swamibapa, as he is referred to, was expected at the temple to pay his respects to the deities. While images of Radha, Krishna, Hanuman and Ganesha appear within the temple pride of place is given to Lord Swaminarayan, always portrayed in resplendent clothes, and his perfect devotee, Gunatitanand Swami. As the tiny temple bulges with devotees, the men sitting in front, the women well at the back and the sadhus immediately in front of the deities, Pramukh Swami Maharaj walks in. He is a slightly pudgy 75-year-old. Despite a bypass operation four months ago in America, he looks tranquil.

The crowds greet him with folded hands. A few boys cry "Pramukh Swami ki Jai" but are hastily silenced by their parents. Upstairs, Pramukh Swami gives a small discourse, beginning with a ritual veneration of the line of spiritual heads starting from Swaminarayan. He stops after mentioning his predecessor, Yogiji Maharaj, but the crowd roars: "Pramukh Swami Ki Jai!" He takes the acclaim in his stride, moving on impassively to an address on God's indiscriminate regard for rich and poor.

"A poor man's house may be small and unfurnished but God takes even greater pleasure from a visit there than to a rich man's house," he tells his devotees. The message may have been a mild reproof to one of the devotees from Nairobi who had just addressed the crowd on his handsome donation for the forthcoming temple.

Earlier, during a discourse by a sadhu, Pramukh Swami saton his richly decorated armchair, intently reading a letter. This is one of his ways of keeping in touch with his flock. They write to him, and he writes back. The BAPS proudly notes that he has written 4,35,000 letters and visited over 2,50,000 homes. His concentration on the task is unremitting. Never once does he lift his eyes from the pages, until the swami stops the discourse and approaches him. With that same air of attention, he then turns upon the subject under discussion.

Is he God-realized? How hard it is to tell. All you can say is that there is a total lack of self-consciousness, a complete genuineness and focus on the moment. Kalpesh Bhatt, a young computer engineer who chucked a lucrative job in the USA to take up an honorary job with the group, recalls what brought him within the flock. As a youngster living in the vicinity, he often spent time with the sadhus.

 

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One summer, he was asked to accompany Pramukh Swami on one of his rural visits. Seizing the opportunity for a holiday, he went along, only to discover that the holiday required him to sweep the place, cut vegetables, and do other menial work. Weary of the slog, Bhatt and his friend conspired to sneak away. However, unable to procure any tickets, they returned.

"When I came back," he recalls, "Pramukh Swami looked at me and smiled. Although all he said was `Jai Swaminarayan', I felt he knew everything. At that point I told myself that I shouldn't cheat this man." Even others devotees attribute Pramukh Swami with omniscience. Since sadhus are not allowed to meet or talk to women, female devotees to not have direct access to him.

Nevertheless, says 23-year-old Meghna, a computer student: "I don't feel deprived. When in trouble, I close my eyes, remember him and the problem disappears." There is a singular sincerity about the devotees of this faith. For those actively involved, Swaminarayan is a living faith, untouched by the cynicism or indifference that overtakes inheritors of older faiths, who lack a direct relationship with it.

Devotees attribute this to the devotion, large-heartedness and humility of the sadhus and, above all, Pramukh Swami himself. "These are really true saints," exclaims entrepreneur Tushar Bambhatt. "They don't touch money or women. They are so open hearted and friendly, I fell in love with them!"

The temple complex in Ahmedabad, the group's headquarters, is vast. The architecture, one again, is filigreed pink sandstone. Frantic construction is on, signs of the movement's growing size. The complex houses a bookshop, a printing press, offices, accommodation for the sadhus, dining halls and a gues house. There is also a hospital offering subsidized medical care, plus the headquarters for child, youth and women activities. Women constitute 60 per cent of the fellowship.

This is ironic, for if there is anything that you would dispute about the movement, it is the injunction that the sadhus observe eight-fold celibacy. This forbids any contact, including speech, with women. The rule can only be relaxed in matters of life or death. Women sit well at the back at all function and gatherings. They don't approach any area likely to have sadhus.

If there is an inadvertent meeting, either the sadhu or the woman backs away hastily, eyes to the ground. As a woman, I had no access to the sadhus and had to be content with written answers to my questions. Everywhere, I had to keep an eye open to ensure that no ascetic crossed my path or I his. Used to discoursing freely with members of the opposite sex, it was a novel experience to see myself cast in the role of a Mata Hari, out to ensnare unwary adepts.

"But that's not the reason for the injunction," protests Ritesh Gadhia. A former alumni of IIM Ahmedabad, Gadhia is an aspiring sadhu. He explains that during Swaminarayan's ministry in the 18th Century, many ascetics and spiritual leaders abused their positions to molest women. The injunction is for the protection of women rather than the reverse.

Adds Vivekjivandas Swami: "The motive for observing celibacy is self-discipline and elevation, not harming or breeding aversion for women." This may be true but it reinforces the society's existing tendency to marginalize them. But the women express no resentment. Neeta Shah is deputy general manager in a public sector company. She is also one of the chief organizers of the women's wing. Gentle and enthusiastic, she brushes away all apprehensions of mariginalization.

"The non-interference of the swamis has given us an opportunity to learn to do everything ourselves," she says. "Even a five-year-old girl knows how to manage and organize an assembly." The women's center buzzes with activity. The youth center is convening a meeting in one room, while tiny tots of five and below have their own assembly. In another room, women are busy sorting out answers to a mandatory bi-annual examination on spirituality. Women are responsible for correcting, grading and allotting certificates.

 

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The process is computerized to make sense of the thousands of entries. Most activities are planned by the Ahmedabad headquarters and intimated to other centers. The center is currently organizing a six-month self-development program that includes effective communication and learning. Family harmony is the specific mission assigned by Prakukh Swami, who initiated the concept of the ghar sabha. Members of the family are required to sit together for at least half-an-hour every evening, exchange news of the day, resolve contentious issues, and have fun.

A striking aspect about the group is its relentless focus on social activity. The movement calls itself a socio-spiritual organization and takes as its motto Pramukh Swami's oft-quoted statement: "In the joy of other lies our own. In the progress of others rests our own. In the good of others is our own." This interface between individual and collective welfare is akin to Buddhist philosophy and is somewhat unusual in a Hindu organization that traditionally highlights individual transformation.

The group's activities are wide ranging. At the Ahmedabad temple, the adjoining hospital was conducting a free blood pressure, ECG and diabetes camp. All visitor were given tests while doctors analysed the patient. Educational activities include schools in London, Gondal, Ahmedabad, aids for many other schools, and a range of hostels for young college students. We went to one such hostel, situated in the university town of Vidyanagar, two hours from Ahmedabad. Beautifully neat and clean as with all their properties, the place is verdant with greenery.

The spacious six-acre campus accommodates three residential buildings for 375 students, an administration block, a sant nivas for the 16 sadhus who administer the place, a large temple, a dining hall and a book shop. Women are conspicuous by their absence, though they are allowed to come as far as the temple. I am asked to sit at the reception, where I am sent students to be interviewed. One such is Chinti Dave, a final year engineering student at BVM engineering college.

He waxes eloquent on the campus which is the best in Vidyanagar: "We get all luxuries like hot water, uninterrupted power supply, and spacious rooms. And the saints give us good guidance." Student are introduced to a range of activities such as karate, quizzes, debates and music classes. Participation in the administration is encouraged. There is regular arati and nightly discourses. This exposure to religious thought and close contact with sadhus makes the campuses a prime recruitment spot for future ascetics.

The Vidyanagar campus, among eight hostels in Gujarat and one in Maharashtra, has alone provided 60 sadhus to the organization. Charges here are lower than at other similar institutions, with a monthly food bill of Rs 750 and boarding of Rs 1,200. The food consists of chappatis, rice, curd, dal, two vegetables and a tall glass of buttermilk.

The BAPS record for relief work is remarkable. Largely centred around Gujarat, BAPS had a large contribution in rehabilitating Latur quake victims. The cyclone that ripped through Kandla port last year, also prompted speedy relief measures by the group. Currently BAPS is rebuilding 10 schools within the cyclone-affected region. The prime movers of the relief measures are the sadhus and youth volunteers.

The accent on social work dates back to the founder of the faith, Sahajanand Swami (later called Swaminarayan), himself a social reformer. Born in Chapaiya in northern India on April 3, 1781, he was called Ghanshyam, Swaminarayan annals credit him with a miraculous youth, the highlight of which was his leaving home at age 11 to wander through India.

His rigorous penance and pilgrimages included a trek to the snowbound Mansarovar lake, clad only in loincloth. There is a whole section in the exhibition are of Akshardham relating his perilous journeys through India. It was in the South that he developed his philosophy, based on the Vishishtadvaita (qualified nondualism) of Ramanujacharya.

Seven years and 13,000 km later, he arrived in Kathiawad, Gujarat and joined the ashram of Ramanand Swami where he was renamed Swami Sahajanand. In time, he was chosen to succeed the latter. Among the social reforms he implemented was stopping animal sacrifices and relaxing caste structure by allowing entry to all members.

 

 

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There remain some caste distinctions: the sadhus are supposed to eat food cooked only by brahmins. Harijans are also not meant to eat in the temple premises. However, such rules are apparently only on paper. Swami Sahahanand also succeeded in putting a stop to sati and female foeticide. He offered to pay the dowry of any girl if her parents could not. He also furthered the cause of education both among men and women, by setting up schools for both sexes.

The essence of Swami Sahajanand's philosophy revolved around the existence of five eternal entities: jiva (self), ishwara (deities), maya (flux), akshar (abode of God) and purushottam or parabrahaman (the supreme person). Of these, only the last is the ultimate reality that causes the existence of the rest. Within the group, akshar is seen as the perfect devotee who, according to Swaminarayan, would be his abode in life after life. Each spiritual head in turn becomes the abode of the Lord, hence worthy of worship.

It was on the point of the right of the akshar to be worthy of worship that the rifts occurred. The original group does not install the icon of the akshar, unlike the BAPS which installs the image of Gunatitanand Swami. This gave rise to the BAPS name—Akshar Purushottam Sanstha. A new religion, the Swaminarayan faith included the Vedas, the Gita, and the Srimad Bhagvatam as scriptures.

But it also bequeathed its own doctrines: the Shikshapatri and the Vachinam Amritam. Renunciates have a rigorous code of conduct, comprising five vows: nishkam (ego-lessness), niswad (beyond taste) nissneh (non-attachment). The devotees have their vows, such as vegetarianism, not to take intoxicants, not to commit adultery, not to steal or defile oneself or others.

Such is the weightage given to these injunctions that serious devotees go to any length to obey them. Bambhatt, for instance, travels all other the world, but remains true to his vegetarian vow. Bambhatt has tried to solve this problem by opening a restaurant in Ahmedabad called Ras Bas. Serving pure vegetarian food, the staff conducts pujas and food is offered to Lord Swaminarayan before serving. Says Bhupendra Solanki: "We feel that God and our guru are watching us every moment, therefore our concept is not commercial."

With such spiritual guides on call, can one wonder that the organization prospers?

 

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"My interest in socialism is borne of the fact that socialists understand exactly what is wrong with capitalism. They understand how it permeates and destroys all that is good in human nature. It pitches brother against sister, black against white. Dividium et imperium."

 

Yet all these socialists can only sit and gripe. There are evils in both systems the only way to escape evil is to live outside these man made systems and serve god. It is amazing the amount of good people that come forward under capitalism to work good in the world, the same can`t be said of most proclaimed socialists. The only way to make any good change is to abandon lables and blame and go out and do what you can for your fellow man don`t worry about what the next person is doing nor try and force them to do things your way.

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Well there's a well informed and illuminating posting for you folks. That really reorientated my beliefs. Why bother putting a posting on like that? It wastes your time, my time and anybody who chooses to read it. You obviously haven't assessed any of the previous information disucussed or added anything of value to the debate. Sounds to me like someone who likes sitting and griping and criticising others. To become spiritually aware you must first become materially aware. Prabhupada's dictum, not mine.

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Was simply responding to your words, nice of you to decide I am wasting everyones time ( quite socialist of you ). I read through this thread and chose to address the one part of it that irritated me the most the whole blame the system attitude you have. The system has little to do with the choices MOST people make, however it offers an excuse for people who want to have a villian. People need to do gods work regardless and " fighting the system " is nothing but a distraction to make some people feel good. How much time have you and your friends spent " educating " people vs feeding and housing people ? How many went to march at the G8 ? How many have spent time out of country building shelter/wells ?

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You wish to speak of Prabhupada's dictum lets see then as I simplified for you here is Isopanishad Text 2 with Prabhupada's Purport.

 

"kurvann eveha karmani

jijivisec chatam samah

evam tvayi nanyatheto 'sti

na karma lipyate nare

 

kurvan--doing continuously; eva--thus; iha--during this span of life; karmani--work; jijiviset--one should desire to live; satam--one hundred; samah--years; evam--so living; tvayi--unto you; na--no; anyatha--alternative; itah--from this path; asti--there is; na--not; karma--work; lipyate--can be bound; nare--unto a man.

 

TRANSLATION

 

One may aspire to live for hundreds of years if he continuously goes on working in that way, for that sort of work will not bind him to the law of karma. There is no alternative to this way for man.

 

PURPORT

 

No one wants to die, and everyone wants to live as long as he can drag on. This tendency is not only visible individually but also collectively in the community, society and nation. There is a hard struggle for life by all kinds of living entities, and the Vedas say that this is quite natural. The living being is eternal by nature, but due to his bondage in material existence he has to change his body over and over. This process is called the transmigration of the soul, and this transmigration is due to karma-bandhana, or bondage to one's work. The living entity has to work for his livelihood because that is the law of material nature, and if he does not act according to his prescribed duties, he transgresses the law of nature and binds himself more and more to the cycle of birth and death.

 

Other life forms are also subject to the cycle of birth and death, but when the living entity attains a human life, he gets a chance to get free from the law of karma. Karma, akarma and vikarma are very clearly described in Bhagavad-gita. Actions which are performed in terms of one's prescribed duties, as mentioned in the revealed scriptures, are called karma. Actions which free one from the cycle of birth and death are called akarma. And actions which are performed by the misuse of one's freedom and which direct one to the lower life forms are called vikarma. Of these three types of action, that which frees one from the bondage to karma is preferred by intelligent men. Ordinary men wish to perform good works in order to be recognized and achieve some higher status of life in this world or in heaven, but more advanced men want to be free altogether from the actions and reactions of work. Intelligent men well know that both good and bad works equally bind one to the material miseries. Consequently they seek that work which will free them from the reactions of both good and bad work.

 

The instructions of Sri Isopanisad are more elaborately explained in Bhagavad-gita, sometimes called Gitopanisad, the cream of all the Upanisads. In Bhagavad-gita the Personality of Godhead says that one cannot attain the state of naiskarma or akarma without executing the prescribed duties mentioned in Vedic literatures (Bg. 3.9-16). The Vedas can regulate the working energy of a human being in such a way that one can gradually realize the authority of the Supreme Being. When one realizes the authority of the Personality of Godhead, it is to be understood that he has attained the stage of positive knowledge. On this purified stage the modes of nature--namely goodness, passion and ignorance--cannot act, and one is enabled to work on the basis of naiskarma. Such work does not bind one to the cycle of birth and death.

 

Factually no one has to do anything more than render devotional service to the Lord. However, in the lower stages of life one cannot immediately adopt the activities of devotional service, nor can one completely stop fruitive work. A conditioned soul is accustomed to working for sense gratification, for his own selfish interest, immediate or extended. An ordinary man works for his own sense enjoyment, and when this principle of sense enjoyment is extended to include his society, nation or humanity in general, it assumes various attractive names such as altruism, socialism, communism, nationalism, humanitarianism, etc. These "isms" are certainly very attractive forms of karma-bandhana (work which binds), but the Vedic instruction of Isopanisad is that if one actually wants to live for any of the above "isms," he should make them God-centered. There is no harm in becoming a family man, or an altruist, socialist, communist, nationalist, or humanitarian provided that one executes his activities in relation with isavasya, the God-centered conception.

 

Bhagavad-gita states (Bg. 2.40) that God-centered activities are so valuable that just a few of them can save a person from the greatest danger. The greatest danger of life is the danger of gliding down again into the evolutionary cycle of birth and death. If some way or another a man misses the spiritual opportunity afforded by his human form of life and falls down again into the evolutionary cycle, he must be considered most unfortunate. Due to his defective senses, a foolish man cannot see that this is happening. Consequently Sri Isopanisad advises us to exert our energy in the spirit of isavasya. Being so engaged in that spirit, we may wish to live for many, many years; otherwise a long life in itself has no value. A tree lives for hundreds and perhaps thousands of years, but there is no point in living a long time like trees, or breathing like bellows, or begetting children like hogs and dogs, or eating like a camel. A humble God-centered life is more valuable than a colossal hoax of a life dedicated to godless altruism or socialism.

 

When altruistic activities are executed in the spirit of Sri Isopanisad, they become a form of karma-yoga. Such activities are recommended in Bhagavad-gita (Bg. 18.5-9), for they guarantee their executor protection from the dangers of sliding down into the evolutionary process of birth and death. Even though such God-centered activities may be half-finished, they are still good for the executor because they will guarantee him a human form in his next birth. In this way one can have another chance to improve his position on the path of liberation. "

 

 

Would you look at that Prabhupada states exactly what I told you so are you going to attack his words now ?

 

"There is no harm in becoming a family man, or an altruist, socialist, communist, nationalist, or humanitarian provided that one executes his activities in relation with isavasya, the God-centered conception."

 

There ya go, so have fun playing socialist just help feed or house some people and I will enjoy my life as a capitalist feeding and helping people.

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At which point did I argue for a socialism that wasn't God centred? You're not very thorough are you? I own and read the Isopanishad and nothing in the extract above actively contradicts what I am arguing for here. I am not arguing for socialism in and of itself because socialism isn't God centred but there is more place for sacred values to develop and flourish in a socialist society than a capitalist one.

 

Labour is sacred. It is a devotional act. It is the way in which the spirit soul achieves communion with Krishna not only in the material world but beyond into the spiritual world. Labour/service is our dharma. We agree so far? Yes?

 

Labour in a capitalist economy is not orientated around the principle of spiritual emanciapation, rather it is orientated around the principle of profit. People's spiritual emancipation through their labour has no place in a capitalist society. Tasks are broken down and made meaningless and monotonous. Social care isn't remunerated highly whereas vicious market traders can make millions in minutes through gambling and cheating.

 

Labour shouldn't be alienating and Prabhupada explains in the very verse in the Isopanishad that you have selected why labour itself is and should be liberating. We should be able to engage in those activities that enable us to live simple devotional lives whilst meditating on our spiritual goals. This society does not advocate that.

 

Marx exposed how the prinicples of capitalism sit entiriely in contradiction to human need for stability, security and productive mental and spiritual engagement. Yes Marx spoke about spirituality, a secular spirituality, but spirituality none the less. Marx argued that the reason labour has become so alienating is because it is not orientated first and foremost around the need for spiritual and physical nourishment. The mode of production we currently adhere to in this world treats human beings as cumbersome and expensive machinery. As Henry Ford once bemoaned "why do people keep sending me human beings when all I need is a pair of hands?"

 

Basic community services have been sacrificed for profit. The elderly and disabled are shored up in homes away from society due to their lack of economic value. As a socialist I am fighting against a system that fails to treat human beings and all life for that matter, as sacred. I am fighting a system that fails to feed and clothe the majority of the world's population when we have never lived in times more plentiful.

 

Yes I did march at the G8 summit and I am engaged in a variety of coalition campaigns such as Make Poverty History and Stop The War as part of my work as a socialist to bring peace to this earth to make it fit for human habitation and development. What on earth have I said that has suggested to you in any way that I would not wish to engage in such activities? Is it that I haven't said them and your predjudice has led you to assume what I am thinking? If I were a great devotee I may have taken offence. Vaishnava aparadha, best to be cautious, huh?

 

Prabhupada's vision of a golden age on earth was oriented around a return to a feudal way of life. Indeed varnashrama dhama is essentially a feudal system with gradations of class determined according to nature. Capitalism is not a feudal system, nor is socialism. In that sense neither of us are actually arguing to implement what Prabhupada ordered. My concern is that Iskcon has stopped acting as a revolutionary organisation and has thereby aligned itself with capitalist interests. As such I feel the need to invigorate Iskcon with revolutionary thinking. Studying socialist ideas has given me some insight into how and why revolutions are necessary and why as Prabhupada's army we should not be so squeamish about social change.

 

You wish to maintain the status quo? Why when this is demon society? I am arguing for a revolutionary change to society because we need it and Prabhupada demanded it. This society was produced through revolution and all major shifts in the economic order are achieved this way. Capitilism is an abberation that was born in the blood of the slave trade. It is hellish economic order. We should be fighting capitalism to bring about varnashrama dhama, any suggestions?

 

One possible and in many ways most probable solution to this quandry is that a massive cataclysm will hit the earth and massively reduce the earth's population. This would force us back into a feudal mode of production. If that doesn't happen, though, and we manage to stop capitalism gorging itself on the subtle forces that keep this world turning then the only way that is going to be achieved is through the workers overthrowing their wanton rulers. They are the only class in society with the numbers and the power to do it.

 

Your argument is that this society doesn't need to change, therefore you are not offering any insight as to how we can reinvigorate Prabhupada's movement. Prabhupada came to save the world not just a few well meaning individuals. Saving the world means changing the world.

 

Prabhupada Jagat Guru ki jai!

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Yes I did march at the G8 summit and I am engaged in a variety of coalition campaigns such as Make Poverty History and Stop The War as part of my work as a socialist to bring peace to this earth to make it fit for human habitation and development.

 

 

So how much money did you spend to get and stay at G8 ? You made my point very easily you march and " make people aware " but fail to do any real works. Did you serve any food to hungry and disadvantaged people there or just your comrads ? Have you built any homes or brought food to the hungry where you live ? Deeds not words.

 

 

 

Your argument is that this society doesn't need to change, therefore you are not offering any insight as to how we can reinvigorate Prabhupada's movement.

 

 

No my argument is that focusing on systems and blaming systems for the state of things is a waste of time and will NEVER I repeat NEVER bring about a change. Change is accomplished 1 soul at a time 1 act ( see that ACT not word ) at a time. Rather than spending money on stupid banners and travel and pamphlets why not spend that money on starting a small food collective, buy a plot of land and grow food for local food banks. Then you will see REAL change, 2 or 3 will work the garden and before you know it 5 or 6 will be helping. That is changing the world, that is serving god.

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You are so judgemental. You are an incredibly critical and rude person and you are not adding anything of value to the debate by attacking me personally. I am not telling you to give up your devotional service to become a revolutionary. I am not telling you to become a socialist and calling you an idiot for not being and yet you seem to think its free season on me. Well it isn't and you should know better. Vaishnavas are armed with the etiquette to debate with reason. You are clearly someone who is just so inimical to socialism that you cannot reason successfully and resort to hair pulling and name calling.

 

If you had any intention of taking this debate seriously your postings would not be so short, abusive and incoherent. This debate has run on for 5 pages and began with a sincere inquiry by myself to find out what if any contradictions there are with my being a socialist and a vaishnava. Periodically someone such as your self crops up and just spits venom without actually helping me understand this situation. I am not so conceited that I think everyone must accept my point of view and so I do not understand what possesses you to be so dismissive and uncooperative.

 

Socialism doesn't bring love of godhead, I am aware of that. Only vaishnava seva can do that. However, if you'd read my responses respectfully you would understand that. I request that you familiarise yourself with the information being presented and respond respectfully or go and find someone who is interested in spatting with you. This is not a game and it is very frustrating for me as I sincerely want to engage in this debate with serious people.

 

I started this debate because I am interested in socialism and particularly spiritual communism. There is no such thing as spiritual capitalism and I would beg that you bear that in mind before you put finger to keyboard again.

 

If you think I am wrong that is fine, many people if not most do. I am used to it. That does not mean that it is ok for you to be so disrespectful to me. I am not an abusive person and am sincere in my objectives. Why are you so inimical to me that you are not even prepared to reason with me respectfully? Many people on this site have disagreed with me and that is fine but I will not tolerate this aggressive and unrepentant abuse from you. You are not attacking socialism right now you are attacking an aspirant vaishnava who is feeling a strong desire for direction and guidance. If you cannot offer that then why do you wish to speak?

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There is no such thing as spiritual capitalism and I would beg that you bear that in mind before you put finger to keyboard again.

 

 

Actually there is and it is called free will. I, not the community, decide what to do with the fruits of my labor.

 

As far as respect, all I have done is ask you what you and your socalist friends have done to help your fellow man other than march and complain. I do write in anger because I hate copouts which is all the whole blame the system game is one giant copout. If you find it to be disrespectful to ask what you have actually done I guess I have my answer.

 

I have also politely told you as guidence to not focus on systems and to focus on deeds and what true change comes from deeds and how marching does nothing to feed the people hungry today.

 

Funny that you whine about being attacked yet in the same paragraph attack me. So my postings are short and incoherent to you perhaps but the people I write with daily take no issue with it, not all of us had the privlage of going to advanced educations some of us had to help feed our families.

 

Still wondering what actual works you have done though ...

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At which point did I argue for a socialism that wasn't God centred? You're not very thorough are you? I own and read the Isopanishad and nothing in the extract above actively contradicts what I am arguing for here. I am not arguing for socialism in and of itself because socialism isn't God centred but there is more place for sacred values to develop and flourish in a socialist society than a capitalist one.

 

Labour is sacred. It is a devotional act. It is the way in which the spirit soul achieves communion with Krishna not only in the material world but beyond into the spiritual world. Labour/service is our dharma. We agree so far? Yes?

 

Labour in a capitalist economy is not orientated around the principle of spiritual emanciapation, rather it is orientated around the principle of profit. People's spiritual emancipation through their labour has no place in a capitalist society. Tasks are broken down and made meaningless and monotonous. Social care isn't remunerated highly whereas vicious market traders can make millions in minutes through gambling and cheating.

 

Labour shouldn't be alienating and Prabhupada explains in the very verse in the Isopanishad that you have selected why labour itself is and should be liberating. We should be able to engage in those activities that enable us to live simple devotional lives whilst meditating on our spiritual goals. This society does not advocate that.

 

Marx exposed how the prinicples of capitalism sit entiriely in contradiction to human need for stability, security and productive mental and spiritual engagement. Yes Marx spoke about spirituality, a secular spirituality, but spirituality none the less. Marx argued that the reason labour has become so alienating is because it is not orientated first and foremost around the need for spiritual and physical nourishment. The mode of production we currently adhere to in this world treats human beings as cumbersome and expensive machinery. As Henry Ford once bemoaned "why do people keep sending me human beings when all I need is a pair of hands?"

 

Basic community services have been sacrificed for profit. The elderly and disabled are shored up in homes away from society due to their lack of economic value. As a socialist I am fighting against a system that fails to treat human beings and all life for that matter, as sacred. I am fighting a system that fails to feed and clothe the majority of the world's population when we have never lived in times more plentiful.

 

Yes I did march at the G8 summit and I am engaged in a variety of coalition campaigns such as Make Poverty History and Stop The War as part of my work as a socialist to bring peace to this earth to make it fit for human habitation and development. What on earth have I said that has suggested to you in any way that I would not wish to engage in such activities? Is it that I haven't said them and your predjudice has led you to assume what I am thinking? If I were a great devotee I may have taken offence. Vaishnava aparadha, best to be cautious, huh?

 

Prabhupada's vision of a golden age on earth was oriented around a return to a feudal way of life. Indeed varnashrama dhama is essentially a feudal system with gradations of class determined according to nature. Capitalism is not a feudal system, nor is socialism. In that sense neither of us are actually arguing to implement what Prabhupada ordered. My concern is that Iskcon has stopped acting as a revolutionary organisation and has thereby aligned itself with capitalist interests. As such I feel the need to invigorate Iskcon with revolutionary thinking. Studying socialist ideas has given me some insight into how and why revolutions are necessary and why as Prabhupada's army we should not be so squeamish about social change.

 

You wish to maintain the status quo? Why when this is demon society? I am arguing for a revolutionary change to society because we need it and Prabhupada demanded it. This society was produced through revolution and all major shifts in the economic order are achieved this way. Capitilism is an abberation that was born in the blood of the slave trade. It is hellish economic order. We should be fighting capitalism to bring about varnashrama dhama, any suggestions?

 

One possible and in many ways most probable solution to this quandry is that a massive cataclysm will hit the earth and massively reduce the earth's population. This would force us back into a feudal mode of production. If that doesn't happen, though, and we manage to stop capitalism gorging itself on the subtle forces that keep this world turning then the only way that is going to be achieved is through the workers overthrowing their wanton rulers. They are the only class in society with the numbers and the power to do it.

 

Your argument is that this society doesn't need to change, therefore you are not offering any insight as to how we can reinvigorate Prabhupada's movement. Prabhupada came to save the world not just a few well meaning individuals. Saving the world means changing the world.

 

Prabhupada Jagat Guru ki jai!

 

I like some of your ideas, but what are you long term plans?

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I haven't got much access to the internet, thats why I got so frustrated with you. I had a good run there because of my job and it got totally consumed in going over stuff that I've already written about here. I think you do not understand what a socialist really is and therefore you are attacking my position without really understanding it. Mao said change must come through the barrel of a gun but I am not a Maoist so I don't believe that. I do know, however, that the ruling class are armed and are not going to give up there position without a fight.

 

Stalin said that one death is a tragedy but 100,000 is a statistic. Thats because he was a psychopath. I am neither a psychopath nor a Stalinist. Marx was a very wise man despite the constant attacks he suffered at the hands of the establishment. He never prescribed what a socialist society would look like because he believed it was beyond the scope of a single individual to orchestrate the whole of society without that society becoming a tyranny. As such every dictator who has ever espoused socialist ideas have fundamentally misunderstood and perverted Marx's principle teachings.

 

My plan is to do whatever I can to empower people to overcome the drug of illusion. I believe that awakening people to the corruption of the current system is a fantastic way to do that. This doesn't detract from the importance of telling people about the truth of God as it is intrinsically linked with that project. Today's rulers are demonic and they degrade the consciousness of the whole planet. If we change the current system to one that doesn't favour demons and despots more people would feel the power to express their true consciousness as spirit souls.

 

From some of your exerpts I would say that you are of the school of belief that says that it is human nature to be selfish and that we have to fight against this on an individual basis. While I believe that the instinct of survival is a localised one within every individual I believe that the current economic system actively encourages and rewards selfish behaviour and that without changing that system most people in the world are never going to have the opportunity or the inclination to explore their higher nature.

 

thats all I've got time for now. Hope that puts us on better terms. I'm really not here to fight even though I know a lot of what I say is incredibly contentious.

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all the problems we face now in this world are not due to modern capitalism. it is just evil people behaving just evil. and then we have muslims who don't have decent normal lives and keep bashing capitalism b/c it has not done good for them. this chaos could happen in socialism anyday with the evil people present on this earth in that system.

 

pure capitalism is possible when everyone can compete adequately in this super-competitive world. it is not like that and we have socialism with capitalism in america. everyone has to provide $ for poor folks who can't make it.

 

this is more of a geo-politics and governments issue and not economics.

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Danielle,

Thank you for your latest post it really does show a deeper motivation than the posts where you seemed ( to me ) to be reciting slogans and I can respect that. I do understand what socialism is, I grew up in an area where you couldn`t avoid the teachings and I have several friends that worked with several groups including Food not Bombs.

 

You are correct, I do believe man is selfish by nature and I believe that it is right to decide to continue to be selfish. However I made the choice to be a man that shares and works to help his brothers and sisters when they need it. I believe that change is possible and I believe that at a heart and soul level we both want the same world. I also happen to believe that the world changes one person/soul at a time and so many people waste so much energy when the solution is really just so simple.

 

The main reason I went after you as I said here was your barking of slogans, I know the people who bark those slogans too well, I went to the G8 years back with these type of people. Not a single moment was spent on solutions, just concerts, planning for street action ( vandalism ) and drugs/sex. It was almost surreal to be hitting the streets marching ( right past the homeless begging for change ) engaging in taunting the police and light vandalism, then heading back to the hotels to drink/smoke and laugh about how we showed them. Not a single enlightining act took place, no work in soupkitchens, no time talking to everyday people on the streets, nothing. That is where my anger comes from, such a waste of energy, such a creation of bad energy. If all these thousands would have saved their money and help a volunteerism day to protest the G8 the went out banners in tow and cleaned up a park , had a picknic for peace or delivered food to the hungry that would have shown something.

 

Again thank you for your last post and I will try and tune myself down in my responses.

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