The Prabhupada Incarnation

[pranay2 0]

Naturally the opulence of Bhakti and following Srila Prabhupad Ji displayed is not at all possible by a human being.

When Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu desends or any avatar of God Avatars do accompany him.

I have heard Srila Prabhupad Ji is a Sakhi of Sri Raadhe is it true?

[Guest guest]

Haribol. If one really accepts Srila Prabhupada as shaktivesa avatar, then one must also accept different relationships (rasas) he enjoys with different personalities. While awe and reverence is certainly indicated, there are others that relate to him in a different manner, such as various godbrothers and even disciples. The service attitude gradually lessens when friendshipo increases, so perhaps the awe and reverence is lessened, yet, when others see and comment on such factual relationships, they imagive offensive behavior when there is none. It is best to not even comment. Many of Srila Prabhupada's early disciples called him "swamiji", and this name was accepted by Srila Prabhupada. If we dont accept this, it is of no consequence whatsoever.

 

Concerning Srila Prabhupadas swarupa-siddhi, once, a dear friend and early disciple and personal caretaker of Srila Prabhupada made him a shirt. Some of His attendants laughed at her creation, scoffing that it looked like a cowboy shirt (my friend was from Texas). Srila Prabhupada glared at them, saying "How do you know Im not a cowboy?" I have heard from other sources that Srila Prabhupada was indeed an intimate friend of Krsna at the level of sudama and subala. His love for cows demonstrates such flavor as well.

 

Please dont follow this with ignorant items of how the gopis are better than gopas, that madurya rasa cannot be taught by those in vatsalya rasa, because it wont fly or be responded to. The greatest authority on madurya rasa is Sri Ramananda Raya, who was Arjuna, and if anyone should know, Arjuna should.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[stonehearted 0]

Srila Prabhupada wore several of those cowboy shirts for a while, and Govinda made some for the brahmacharis in Honolulu as well.

 

With regard to his svarupa, this is not the proper place to discuss it any further than mahak has already. Srila Sridhar Maharaja has found hints in Srila Prabhupada's prayer to Krishna on the Jaladuta, and there are other tidbits here and there. But they don't have any meaning to those who aren't his disciples, nor to those of us whose surrender is lacking. Whatever we need to know will be revealed to us naturally as our surrender progresses.

 

And I'll join mahak in not responding at all to those who want to argue this point, whichever "side" they decide to take.

[Guest guest]

For what it's worth, I would like to post something from Srila Prabhupada which explains something about his devotional mood and ideal.

This is found as the concluding words to the Nectar of Devotion.

 

 

Srila Rupa Gosvami concludes by saying that Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu is very difficult for ordinary men to understand, yet he hopes that Lord Krsna, the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead, will be pleased with his presentation of this book. By rough calculation it is estimated that Srila Rupa Gosvami finished Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu in Gokula Vrndavana in the year 1552. While physically present, Srila Rupa Gosvami was living in different parts of Vrndavana, and his headquarters were in the temple of Radha-Damodara in the present city of Vrndavana. The place of Rupa Gosvami's bhajana, execution of devotional service, is commemorated still. There are two different tomblike structures in the Radha-Damodara temple; one structure is called his place of bhajana, and in the other his body is entombed. BEHIND THIS VERY TOMB I HAVE MY PLACE OF BHAJAN, but since 1965 I have been away. The place, however, is being taken care of by my disciples. By Krsna's will, I am now residing at the Los Angeles temple of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. This purport is finished today, the 30th of June, 1969.

 

Sridhar Maharaja had an opinion based upon something he found in the song of Srila Prabhupada written on the Jaladuta on his way to America.

Srila Prabhupada's books also contain clues and information that can, for some people, give them their own idea about the mood and the devotional ideal of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I think that Srila Prabhupada, having his place of bhajan behind the tomb of Srila Rupa Goswami, says something.

He said that "I have been away since 1965". His disciples were caring for that place of Srila Prabhupada's bhajan for him while he was away.

 

Anyway, that is just my own feeling and I know that others don't share that.

 

I am far from convinced that Srila Prabhupada's eternal relationship with Krishna is sakhya-rasa.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja also explained that the sakhya sentiments that Srila Prabhupada expressed in that song could have been an upsurge of emotions that were inspired by the presence of Lord Nityananda in the heart of Srila Prabhupada and that Srila Prabhupada could have shown those feelings in deference to Lod Nityananda to invoke his pleasure and blessing for the mission he was embarking on.

 

Sridhar Maharaja explained that these feelings of Lord Nityananda could have eclipsed the personal feelings of Srila Prabhupada as the shaktyavesha of Lord Nityananda descended upon him.

[Guest guest]

 

The greatest authority on madurya rasa is Sri Ramananda Raya, who was Arjuna

 

I have also read that Sri Ramananda Raya is Vishaka devi. Perhaps both statements are true?

[Guest guest]

Raya Ramananda is more known to us as Visakha Sakhi. But superficially he had some aspect of Arjuna, and Mahaprabhu could detect that...Ramananda is a very close and intimate friend, like Arjuna. That external impression of Mahaprabhu was given, but Ramananda's internal mood is really that of Visakha. To see Ramananda as Arjuna is temporary and external, a fleeting sentiment of Mahaprabhu. Arjuna is in sakhya-rasa. Outwardly Mahaprabhu dealt with Ramananda a little respectfully. Outwardly He used to see him with some respect, some deference. But internally He saw him as a sakhi. Svarupa Damodara and Raya Ramananda both would console Him when the great inevitable flow of love in separation arose in the heart of Mahaprabhu, ostentatiously disturbing Him.

 

Follow the Angels by Swami B.R. Srila Sridhara Maharaja

[Guest guest]

TEXT 83

 

kintu yanra yei rasa, sei sarvottama

tata-stha hana vicarile, ache tara-tama

 

SYNONYMS

 

kintu--nevertheless; yanra--of some devotees; yei rasa--whatever the mellow of exchanges of love; sei--that; sarva-uttama--the best; tata-stha--neutral; hana--being; vicarile--if considering; ache--there is; tara-tama--lower and higher levels.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"It is true that whatever relationship a particular devotee has with the Lord is the best for him; still, when we study all the different methods from a neutral position, we can understand that there are higher and lower degrees of love.

 

TEXT 84

 

yathottaram asau svada-

visesollasa-mayy api

ratir vasanaya svadvi

bhasate kapi kasyacit

 

SYNONYMS

 

yatha uttaram--one after another; asau--that; svada-visesa--of particular tastes; ullasa--pleasing; mayi--empowered with; api--although; ratih--love; vasanaya--by desire; svadvi--sweet; bhasate--appears; ka api--someone; kasyacit--one of them.

 

TRANSLATION

 

" 'Increasing love is experienced in various tastes, one above another. But that love which has the highest taste in the gradual succession of desires manifests itself in the form of conjugal love.'

 

PURPORT

 

This verse is from Srila Rupa Gosvami's Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (2.5.38), and it also appears in the Adi-lila, Chapter Four, verse 45.

 

TEXT 85

 

purva-purva-rasera guna----pare pare haya

dui-tina ganane panca paryanta badaya

 

SYNONYMS

 

purva-purva--of each previous; rasera--of the mellow; guna--the qualities; pare pare--in each subsequent; haya--there are; dui-tina--two and then three; ganane--in counting; panca--five; paryanta--up to; badaya--increases.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"There is a gradual order of improvement in transcendental mellows from the initial ones to the later ones. In each subsequent mellow the qualities of the previous mellows are manifest, counting from two, then three, and up to the point of five complete qualities.

 

TEXT 86

 

gunadhikye svadadhikya bade prati-rase

santa-dasya-sakhya-vatsalyera guna madhurete vaise

 

SYNONYMS

 

guna-adhikye--by the increase of transcendental qualities; svada-adhikya--increase of taste; bade--increases; prati-rase--in each mellow; santa--of neutrality; dasya--of servitude; sakhya--of fraternity; vatsalyera--and of paternal affection; guna--the qualities; madhurete--in the conjugal mellow; vaise--appear.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"As the qualities increase, so the taste also increases in each and every mellow. Therefore the qualities found in santa-rasa, dasya-rasa, sakhya-rasa and vatsalya-rasa are all manifest in conjugal love [madhurya-rasa].

 

TEXT 87

 

akasadira guna yena para-para bhute

dui-tina krame bade panca prthivite

 

SYNONYMS

 

akasa-adira--of the sky, air and so on; guna--the qualities; yena--just as; para-para--one after another; bhute--in the material elements; dui-tina--two and then three; krame--by gradations; bade--increase; panca--all five; prthivite--in earth.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"The qualities in the material elements--sky, air, fire, water and earth--increase one after another by a gradual process of one, two and three, and at the last stage, in the element earth, all five qualities are completely visible.

 

TEXT 88

 

paripurna-krsna-prapti ei 'prema' haite

ei premara vasa krsna----kahe bhagavate

 

SYNONYMS

 

paripurna--completely full; krsna-prapti--achievement of the lotus feet of Lord Krsna; ei--this; prema--love of Godhead; haite--from; ei premara--of this type of love of Godhead; vasa--under the control; krsna--Lord Krsna; kahe--it is said; bhagavate--in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"Complete attainment of the lotus feet of Lord Krsna is made possible by love of Godhead, specifically madhurya-rasa, or conjugal love. Lord Krsna is indeed captivated by this standard of love. This is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

PURPORT

 

To explain the topmost quality of conjugal love, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami gives the example of the material elements--sky, air, fire, water and earth. In the sky (space) there is the quality of sound. Similarly, in air there are the qualities of sound and touch. In fire, there are three qualities--sound, touch and form. In water there are four qualities--sound, touch, form and taste. Finally, in earth there are all five qualities--sound, touch, form, taste and also smell. Now, one can see that the quality of the sky is in all--namely in air, fire, water and earth. In earth we can find all the qualities of material nature. The same can be applied to the rasa known as madhurya-rasa, or conjugal love. In conjugal love there are the qualities of neutrality, servitorship, fraternity and paternal affection, as well as conjugal love itself. The conclusion is that through conjugal love the Lord is completely satisfied.

Conjugal love (madhurya-rasa) is also known as srngara-rasa. It is the conclusion of Srimad-Bhagavatam that in the complete combination of loving service to the Lord--namely in conjugal love--the Supreme Lord fully agrees to be under the control of the devotee. The highest form of conjugal love is represented by Srimati Radharani; therefore in the pastimes of Radha and Krsna we can see that Krsna is always subjugated by Srimati Radharani's influence.

[Guest guest]

Concerning Ramananda raya, it is true that he is also described as Vishaka. There is a controversy between Gaura Ganodesa Dapika and another Viasnava Acarya concerning Prahladas appearance to take part in the Samkirtana movement.

 

These are not issues to destroy one's faith, rather to enhance the reasl love of God.

 

Mixed mellows allows great personalities like Bhisma and Queen Kunti to experiance madurya rasas while clearly and eternally of the parental mellow. Sri Uddhava also fully experiances madurya rasa while clearly a friend of Krsna.

 

The secret in mixed mellows is that by engaging in devotional service of hearing, chanting, remembering, etc, we are not bereft of any so-called higher mellow, even though our swarupa may be different.

 

I alwayas appreciated the cover of the early bhagavatams where the goloka vrndavan is shown. The samkirtana party is also fully absorbed in madurya rasa by appreciation thriough the samkirtana movement. There are also mixed mellows. Some say that Srimati Tulasi devi is servant, and that surabhi is santa rasa, but both can be looked at in another way. Surabhi is the mother of Krsna, His friend, and servant. Srimati Tulasi is in the hands of Srimati Radharani and at the feet of Lord Krsna simultaneously, therefore, Srimati Tulasi is manjari, fully absorbed in non-envious spiritual love of a conjugal nature, as are all the gopis. As are the wives of the brahmanas. There is no rasa bhasa involved in the compatible exchanges of transcendental love, nor is there rasa bhasa involved in King Bhisma, Arjuna, or queen kuntis descriptions of the loving affairs in madurya rasa.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

I am always concerned when I hear Krsnas flute being described in santa rasa. When viewed in another way, this living entity always has Krsnas lotus lips connected, therefore, madurya rasa is evident as well. Only in mundane perception do we see His flute as inanimate, non-alive, or unable to have full consciousness and reciprocation.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

 

I am far from convinced that Srila Prabhupada's eternal relationship with Krishna is sakhya-rasa.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja also explained that the sakhya sentiments that Srila Prabhupada expressed in that song could have been an upsurge of emotions that were inspired by the presence of Lord Nityananda in the heart of Srila Prabhupada and that Srila Prabhupada could have shown those feelings in deference to Lod Nityananda to invoke his pleasure and blessing for the mission he was embarking on.

 

Sridhar Maharaja explained that these feelings of Lord Nityananda could have eclipsed the personal feelings of Srila Prabhupada as the shaktyavesha of Lord Nityananda descended upon him.[/quote

I remember Srila Sridhar Maharaja said also, "perhaps he was just posing". Then he said that Srila Prabhupada may have been only showing sakhya-rasa because it was all his followers could handle at that time. The he expained how sakhya-rasa is contained within madhurya-rasa because madhurya is the adi-rasa. Further, he gave as an example of the lila where Subal takes on the dress of Srimati Radharani in order to decieve Krsna. Then he explained how Subal and Radharani look very similar in complexion. This was to illustrate how sakhya and madhurya are related. There was also more, and some very subtle points about how the cowherd boys were serving the gopis and related to madhurya. Does anyone have an online version of this transcript?

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

I remember Srila Sridhar Maharaja said also, "perhaps he was just posing". Then he said that Srila Prabhupada may have been only showing sakhya-rasa because it was all his followers could handle at that time. The he expained how sakhya-rasa is contained within madhurya-rasa because madhurya is the adi-rasa. Further, he gave as an example of the lila where Subal takes on the dress of Srimati Radharani in order to decieve Krsna. Then he explained how Subal and Radharani look very similar in complexion. This was to illustrate how sakhya and madhurya are related. There was also more, and some very subtle points about how the cowherd boys were serving the gopis and related to madhurya. Does anyone have an online version of this transcript?

Yes, perhaps everyone has not heard everything. There is also the case of selective hearing, reading and memory. If Sridhar Maharaja said these other things about Prabhupada's eternal rasa, then why would so many or his "followers" pick up on the sakhya rasa part and neglect the rest? pashyan ap na pashyati. We see but we do not see.

[Guest guest]

Shakti-fan, when people came to Srila Sridhar Maharaj because they were trying to understand contradictory statements about various topics, Srila Sridhar Maharaj usually gave the devotees clear and unambiguous answers. He wanted to clear up their confusion. It may suit some people's agenda to suggest that Srila Sridhar Maharaj's gave answers on various topics that were ambiguous. But with my own ears I heard Srila Sridhar Maharaj say that Srila Prabhupada was in sakhya rasa. And if you consider that at his main temple in Vrindaban Prabhupada installed Krsna-Balarama in the centre and Radha-Govinda on the side, doesn't that proclaim to the world what Form of the Deity has centre-stage in his heart? It does for me. And Srila Sridhar Maharaj said it was so too.

[Guest guest]

 

Shakti-fan, when people came to Srila Sridhar Maharaj because they were trying to understand contradictory statements about various topics, Srila Sridhar Maharaj usually gave the devotees clear and unambiguous answers. He wanted to clear up their confusion. It may suit some people's agenda to suggest that Srila Sridhar Maharaj's gave answers on various topics that were ambiguous. But with my own ears I heard Srila Sridhar Maharaj say that Srila Prabhupada was in sakhya rasa. And if you consider that at his main temple in Vrindaban Prabhupada installed Krsna-Balarama in the centre and Radha-Govinda on the side, doesn't that proclaim to the world what Form of the Deity has centre-stage in his heart? It does for me. And Srila Sridhar Maharaj said it was so too.

 

Your own ears are not proper authority.

If you cannot present documented reference to what you have said, then it is best you don't say such things.

 

99% of Srila Prabhupada's disciples would disagree with you and Sridhar Maharaja on the rasa of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Those who read his books it total are in a bettter position to judge these things that are his Godbrothers who just look in from the outside and pass judgement on the basis of a very limited foundation in the teachings and writings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

You are doing a great disservice to Sridhar Maharaja by making such outragious claims about that which Srila Prabhupada himself kept as a great secret and a great mystery.

 

Srila Prabhupada is no less than Rupa Goswami.

He is in the same league as far as his disciples are concerned.

 

Disciples of Sridhar Maharaja shouldn't be in the business of telling the disciples of Srila Prabhupada what the rasa of Srila Prabhupada is.

 

If Prabhupada kept it a secret, then you certainly don't have the right to try and make some claim to know.

you don't know.

 

nobody knows.....

 

Why?

Because Srila Rupa Goswami has ordered that one should not reveal himself even after he attains perfection.

[Guest guest]

 

But with my own ears I heard Srila Sridhar Maharaj say that Srila Prabhupada was in sakhya rasa.

 

I previously had some regard and appreciation for the camp of Sridhar Maharaja, but if you devotees are going to start making this sort of propaganda then I don't want anything to do with any of you.

 

I think you need to shut-up and quit talking about things you don't know.

[Guest guest]

to say that Srila Prabhupada was in sakhya-rasa is like saying that Mahaprabhu was in sakhya-rasa.

 

Mahaprabhu Sri Caitanya is the ONLY ONE who can spread Krishna consciousness all over the world.

 

Sridhar Maharaja was about denying the whole movement raga bhakti and madhurya rasa and part of that plan was to say that Srila Prabhupada was in sakhya rasa.

 

The Guardian of Devotion was more like the bouncer at the gates of madhurya rasa.

 

He said "I am not letting anybody in".

 

that's ok, Srila Prabhupada was letting thousands and millions in.

[Guest guest]

I think that when Sridhar Maharaja said Srila Prabhupada was a shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Nityananda he should have been saying that he was a shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Personally, I see Srila Prabhupada as a shaktyavesha avatar of Sri Caitanya - not Lord Nityananda.

 

I have found evidence for such thinking in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

that's the difference between me and Sridhar Maharaja - I read the books of Srila Prabhupada.

I don't simply hear one song he wrote and pass judgement on him on the basis of Krishna-Balarama in Vrindavan.

 

What deity configuration did Srila Prabhupada establish on the central altar in Mayapura?

 

It wasn't Krishna-Balarama or even Gaura-Nitai.

[Guest guest]

To make comments like Lord Nityananda is som kind of lowlife. Fact is, Srila Prabhupada, as bonafide spiritual master, is direct representative of Lord Nityananda Prabhu. Shastra confirms that Guru is plenary shaktivesa incarnation of Lord Nityananda.

 

This silly rasa debate has the same tone, as if any of the four reciprocal rasas, servitude, friendship, parental, or conjugal, have some kind of limitation.

 

By some logic in interpreting, If my swarup happens to be shakya, should I go out and commit suicide because I have such a lowlife constitutional position?

 

What silly nonsense, and I knew it would happen. It is borderline offensive, just the same as those who get on the diksa-siksa debate, thinking that diksa is really guru, while siksas are a dime a dozen.

 

Now I understand why guest debates guest in this regard, cause such foolishness should never be owned up to.

 

Babhru, brother, I said too much, and you are so correct. Some confidential matters should never be aired to the masses.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

Re: Lord Balarama. Correct me if Im mistaken, but I remember somewhere in the krsna book, near the time when Balarama was on tour while others were involved in Kuruksetra, that he actually acted just as Lord Krsna in regard to Madurya rasa. Ill look it up when I got time, and get back to yall.

 

ys, mahaksadasa

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Shakti-fan, when people came to Srila Sridhar Maharaj because they were trying to understand contradictory statements about various topics, Srila Sridhar Maharaj usually gave the devotees clear and unambiguous answers. He wanted to clear up their confusion. It may suit some people's agenda to suggest that Srila Sridhar Maharaj's gave answers on various topics that were ambiguous. But with my own ears I heard Srila Sridhar Maharaj say that Srila Prabhupada was in sakhya rasa. And if you consider that at his main temple in Vrindaban Prabhupada installed Krsna-Balarama in the centre and Radha-Govinda on the side, doesn't that proclaim to the world what Form of the Deity has centre-stage in his heart? It does for me. And Srila Sridhar Maharaj said it was so too.

Sri Balaramaji also appears as Anaga Manjari. So he is also represented there. "Perhaps he was only posing". Find it if you can. I've heard it at least ten times. This philosophy has more twist and turns than you can imagine. "Srila Sridhar Maharaj usually gave the devotees clear and unambiguous answers. He wanted to clear up their confusion". Yes, there confusion that you can hold the knowledge of Krsna in your fist, like as sweet ball. Not so. Jnane prayasam udapasya namanata eva. Srila Sridhar Maharaja has said:

An example of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva is found in the way Krsna deals with his devotees. Krsna himself is independent of everything. Still, sometimes he shows himself to be completely subordinate to his servants and must do whatever they want him to. Then again, sometimes he completely ignores them. These are the spontaneous pastimes of the Sweet Absolute. Sometimes He shows absolute submission to Srimati Radharani, and again, sometimes he ignores her. This is the very nature of Krsna'slila.

 

God works wonders. His ways are filled with miracles. We should be prepared for that. We should be prepared that all the knowledge of this world, all our experience, will prove to be wrong. So it is said, jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva: Be clear of your past experiences, what you have drawn from the world of the senses, empirical knowledge (pratyaksa-jnana). Your tendency will always be to try to push your way into the transcendental world on the strength of mundane knowledge. But this verse is saying, "You fallen people, your capital is the experience of this world, of the senses. But it won't do, it won't have any value in that higher plane. What is found there is a new thing, so approach that world with an open mind; understand that everything is possible with the infinite. All your expectations, your past experience, has no value. Why don't you give up trying to dodge this point?"

 

[stonehearted 0]

I'm done with this thread. It serves no constructive purpose, and I sure wouldn't object if it were closed.

[Guest guest]

 

To make comments like Lord Nityananda is som kind of lowlife. Fact is, Srila Prabhupada, as bonafide spiritual master, is direct representative of Lord Nityananda Prabhu. mahaksadasa

 

it's aint' got nothing to do with that kind of extreme over-exageration.

 

Most of all the followers of Nityananda were in sakhya rasa - you know......

the dwadasha-gopal?

 

How can can screw some meaning of "lowlife" out of a reference to sakhya-rasa is quite bizarre.