The Manifest Presence of Sound

Beggar · May 26, 2006

BY: Bhagavat Das ACBSP

May 18, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">ALACHUA</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">FLORIDA</st1:state></st1:place> (SUN) — Recently Dhira Govinda Prabhu wrote an article called “Sound and Presence” which appeared here on Sampradaya Sun. The article is in my opinion a veiled attempt at trying to promote the idea that Srila Prabhupada can still be the initiating spiritual master of an aspiring devotee today. His quotes from Srila Prabhupada’s letters and books are truths which tell only part of the process of diksha. I have made an examination of the quotes and his conclusions and I have given quotes from Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, to show that the view I am presenting with these quotes is the view of the entire Parampara. I did him the courtesy of discussing this very article you are about to read with him personally before I put it on the web. I see that he has written another article presenting the most absurd conclusion that it is clear that Srila Prabhupada wanted to be the last Acharya in the Parampara and the most prominent link. I will address this article later for now here is my response to his first article.

Let us remember that Srila Prabhupada gave us very clear instructions to study his books. He encouraged us in his books and lectures to read the books of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura and the six Goswamis. And he expected us to become thoroughly knowledgeable about the process of devotional service. The process of how we study his books is of utmost importance and that is what I intend to explain in this article. I will present excerpts from Dhira Govinda Prabhu’s first article followed by my critique with quotes. I will start with the following paragraph which quotes a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Rupanuga Prabhu.

Dhira Govinda Prabhu wrote: We receive mercy from the parampara in the opportunity to hear from the members of the parampara. Hearing from the disciplic succession intrinsically implies transcendental sound vibration. Srila Prabhupada wrote to Rupanuga Prabhu “Anyone who reads the books that is also chanting and hearing. Why distinguish between chanting and book distribution? These books I have recorded and chanted, and they are transcribed. It is spoken kirtanas. So book distribution is also chanting. These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing.” (Oct. 19, 1974)

This is an interesting quote because it almost exactly mirrors, as many of Srila Prabhupada’s quotes do, a passage written by his Spiritual Master Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura in his article “Thakura Bhaktivinode”. Srila Saraswati Thakura says:

“What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures.”

This quote is very clearly in complete harmony with the letter to Rupanuga Prabhu. However, the following sentence raises an important question about how one can access the hidden mysteries of the scriptures, the sentence follows:

“Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard.” Thakura Bhaktivinode By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

If a person believes that they can study and understand the scriptures independent of the guidance of the manifest pure devotee through hearing the transcendental sound vibration from his lotus lips, than that interpretation of the scriptures contradicts its own claim to even be heard. Let’s see if this is where Dhira Govinda Prabhu is going with this. Let’s see if he is really proposing that one can connect to the spiritual master through his books after he is no longer manifest on the planet.

Dhira Govinda Prabhu wrote: “In Vaisnava societies the question has arisen whether the relationship between spiritual master and disciple necessitates physical presence. Of course there are numerous quotes from Srila Prabhupada regarding the primary importance of vani compared to vapu. Still, the controversy is there, with regards to the continuation of the disciplic succession, regarding the role of physical presence.”

It appears that this is the direction he is headed in so lets see what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura has to say in this regard when he faced a similar situation after Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur wound up his manifest pastimes. In a quote from the same article:

“There have, however, already arisen serious misunderstandings regarding the proper interpretation of the life and teachings of Srila Thakura Bhaktivinoda. Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya are disposed to unduly favor the methods of empiric study of his writings. There are persons who have got by heart almost everything that he wrote without being able to catch the least particle of his meaning. Such study cannot benefit those who are not prepared to act up to the instructions lucidly conveyed by his words. There is no honest chance of missing the warnings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda. Those, therefore, who are misled by the perusal of his writings are led astray by their own obstinate perversity in sticking to the empiric course which they prefer to cherish against his explicit warnings. Let these unfortunate persons look more carefully into their own hearts for the cause of their misfortunes. The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakura Bhaktivinoda.” Thakura Bhaktivinode By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

Now Srila Saraswati Thakura is pointing out that after the winding up of the manifest pastimes of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura there has been some serious misunderstandings regarding the proper interpretation of his life and teachings. SOUND FAMILIAR? Srila Saraswati Thakura states that without the guiding grace of the manifest acharya and the personal service to his lotus feet the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakura Bhaktivinode cannot be understood. Some may try to misinterpret the meaning of these words to say that the pure devotee can be served even after his manifest pastimes and this is indeed true. However why then is Srila Saraswati Thakura making an issue of the fact that even those who memorize the books of the Thakura cannot understanding their meaning without being under the guidance of the Acharya? If the acahrya he is talking about is the one who is not manifest at present than what guidance would he give accept that which is in his books which Srila Saraswati Thakura is saying one cannot understand without the guiding grace of the Acharya. Which acharya? Obviously the present manifest acharya, himself. Let’s see if Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura agrees with this assessment. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura states as follows:

“What can we gather from the words of this Mahajana Srila Ragunatha Das Goswami? We understand that the desire for pratistha can never be removed by studying and discussing shastra, by hearing instructions from those who have not attained prema, nor by practicing various bodily processes of yoga. It can only be removed by associating with and serving visuddha vaisnavas. Having searched for and found such vaisnavas, it is our ultimate goal to associate with and serve them.” Pratistha Parivarjana By Thakura Bhaktivinode

Here Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura is very direct, You cannot remove the false egotistical covering (pratistha) and realize your true spiritual form by studying books, discussing books, hearing books being recited by those who are not Prema Bhaktas, or by doing yoga exercise. Only by direct association of vishuddha vaishnava’s which are presently manifesting their pastimes on the planet. If you were to interpret this association with the pure devotees to include those who were not manifest on the planet at this time then you would have to associate through the books which have already been rejected as a way for the condition soul to remove pratistha by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura. One may ask does Srila Prabhupada teach this. Let’s look at the following purport by Srila Prabhupada.

“One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava.” Purport to CC Antya 7:53 By Srila Prabhupada

Srila Prabhupada repeats the same concept as Thakura Bhaktivinode by saying if one is full of pratistha (pride) and thinks he can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books then his conclusion is wrong. One must become the servant of a manifest Vaishnava. Now if Srila Prabhupada were indicating that one could associate with a pure devotee who had already wrapped up his manifest pastimes than he would be contradicting himself because the only association would be through his books and Srila Prabhupada just said to think you can understand transcendental loving service through reading books is false egotistical pride.

This conclusion of Srila Prabhupada’s must be the correct conclusion because it is the conclusion of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur his GURU. In Srila Saraswati Thakur’s Upadeshavali, the word Upadesavali means the ultimate advice, we shall see what the ultimate advice of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur is on hearing?

“Krsna's darsan can only be attained through the medium of the ear as one hears Hari-katha from pure Vaisnavas; there is no other way.”

Here Srila Saraswati Thakura expresses in the most concise and unambiguous manner that hearing Hari-katha through the medium of the ear from the lips of the Pure Vaishnava who is manifest on the planet is the only process for getting Krishna’s Darshan. This is the goal of Krishna Consciousness and since books don’t have lips he could not possibly be referring to books but the manifest pure devotee. Next Dhira Govinda will begin a kind of smoke and mirrors game by presenting and then misinterpreting a verse from Srimad Bhagavatam. Perhaps it is because he does not have the association of the manifest pure devotee to guide him in his study of scripture that he has come to this wrong conclusion.

Dhira Govinda Prabhu wrote: “Srimad-Bhagavatam explains "Persons who are learned and who have true knowledge define sound as that which conveys the idea of an object, indicates the presence of a speaker screened from our view and constitutes the subtle form of ether." (SB 3.26.33)

I invite us to consider this verse with respect to the question of presence. Sound vibration indicates the presence of a speaker screened from view. So, when we hear Srila Prabhupada’s sound vibration, might we understand that he is, with reference to the above definition, present and screened from our view. This screening, of course, is a reflection of our limitations and not of Srila Prabhupada’s lack of full presence.”

Well if Dhira Govinda Prabhu had bothered to read the purport he would find that Srila Prabhupada does not agree with his conclusion. Here is a quote from the purport of the above mentioned verse:

“The science of God has to be understood in disciplic succession from Brahmä, who was first instructed about knowledge of God by God Himself. We can understand the knowledge of God by hearing Bhagavad-gétä from a person authorized in the disciplic succession.” Purport SB 3.26.33 by Srila Prabhupada

Srila Prabhupada says by hearing, with your ears, from a person authorized in disciplic succession, the manifest pure devotee, one can understand Bhagavad Gita not just by reading the book. This is exactly the same point made by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura. Srila Prabhupada makes this same point again in another purport of Srimad Bhagavatam as follows:

“A complete progressive march on the return path home, back to Godhead, will depend on the instructions of the revealed scriptures directed by a realized devotee.” Purport SB 2.3.24 by Srila Prabhupada

We must be directed by a realized devotee who is manifest on the planet, with lips to speak the truth to our spiritually deaf ears. Or as Srila Saraswati Thakura says securing the guiding grace of the acharya, Otherwise reading the books on our own will be false pride and bear no fruit. Srila Prabhupada further elucidates this in the following conversation:

Madhudviña: ...cannot become a medical practitioner by simply reading the books. He must study under a medical practitioner. So in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?

Prabhupäda: No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you have to contact with the author always.

Devotee: Just like the textbooks are not written by the teachers; they’re written by other professors.

Devotee: Usually you don’t even meet the author.

Prabhupäda: Simply one who knows the subject matter, he can explain.

Madhudviña: But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides...

Prabhupäda: No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain. Not necessarily the author is required to be present there.

Morning Walk May 21, 1975 <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Melbourne</st1:city></st1:place>

It is true that the presence of the author, Srila Prabhupada, is not required to understand the books. However to understand his books properly not even Srila Prabhupada’s purports will serve to fully explain their real meaning. The manifest presence of someone who knows the subject matter is absolutely required. Could this be any person who has read the books? Well if we follow the analogy that Srila Prabhupada has given then we can understand that a qualified medical doctor writes the text books and a qualified medical doctor must teach them to the students even if he is not the author of the medical textbooks. As long as he is a qualified medical practitioner he can explain them. If one does not go to medical school and learn the process by hearing the medical doctor explain the books but he reads them on his own he will not become qualified.

In the same way Srila Prabhupada is a pure devotee and the author of the books. Anyone who is a pure devotee who is presently manifesting his pastimes on the planet can explain the subject matter. This is the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada in this conversation. You cannot become a medical practitioner simply by reading books and you cannot understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading the books.

Since Dhira Govinda Prabhu is not following the advice of Srila Prabhupada in understanding his books he makes another mistake in his interpretation of the Srimad Bhagavatam as follows:

Dhira Govinda Prabhu wrote: Lord Brahma received knowledge, was initiated into knowledge, from a Speaker screened from view. Does that indicate that the initiation was not valid, because the speaker remained concealed? Did Lord Brahma not have a living spiritual master, because the Speaker was screened from view? We understand from Srila Prabhupada that Lord Brahma received knowledge from within the heart. I think it’s important to realize that this is the case not just with Brahma. In any authentic relationship between guru and disciple, knowledge is received within the heart. "Divya jnan hrde prokoshito."

Lord Brahma is initiated by the goal of his worship. The Supreme Lord is both Via Media and Ultimate Goal for Lord Brahma. The ultimate goal of worship cannot reveal himself while he is taking the role of the via media. Hence what was applicable to Lord Brahma is not applicable to anyone else in the Sampradaya since all the other Gurus in the Sampradaya are not the ultimate goal of worship but the via media to getting darshan of the ultimate goal. This does not mean that we do not worship the Guru as good as God but we also understand that he is not God and that he is teaching us to accept <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> as the Supreme Lord not himself. Hence using Lord Brahma as an example is inapplicable to everyone else. What we learn in fact is that everyone else in the Sampradaya is initiated by the manifest acharya in the Sampradaya. That is the Guru who is manifesting his pastimes on the planet at the time becomes the person who performs the initiations into the Sampradaya not the one who has wrapped up his manifest pastimes on the planet. This is the process and there has never been and there will never be another way. Dhira Govinda Prabhu, lacking the association of the manifest pure devotee, unfortunately continues to flounder in his attempts to explain this untenable and unauthorized concept as follows.

Dhira Govinda Prabhu wrote: Genuine disciplic succession is based on sound, and it is also based on presence, though this presence is not mundane. My understanding is that even if the spiritual master, in the common sense of the term, is “physically present”, still he is screened from the view of conditioned souls. That is, his transcendental position is not seen, or understood. And, transcendental knowledge is conveyed through the heart. In a consciousness of receiving this knowledge, we open a direct relationship with the guru. His presence is manifest, and the essential process of diksa is alive within us. This consciousness that allows us to enter this relationship entails a conscious choice to serve our spiritual master.

Unfortunately Dhira Govinda Prabhu fails to explain that the Spiritual Master has to make a conscious choice to accept the service of the disciple. This is done when the particular guru who is representing the Sampradaya is manifesting his pastimes on this planet. When he winds up those pastimes on this planet he then ceases to initiate on this planet. Srila Prabhupada is presently preparing to initiate on another planet in another universe and is no longer making conscious decisions to accept disciples on this planet in this universe. He has left explicit instructions in his books and lectures that if you want to understand his books you have to hear and learn them from another manifest pure devotee. These are the exact same instructions of his predecessor acharya’s as I will again demonstrate by the following quotes:

“To hear and explain them (the revealed scriptures) is more important than reading them. One can assimilate the knowledge of the revealed scriptures only by hearing and explaining”. Srila Prabhupada’s purport to 1:1:6 of the Srimad Bhagavatam

Notice here how Srila Prabhupada very deliberately elevates the process of hearing above the process of reading and makes the process of reading subservient to the process of hearing. He also uses a very significant word here “assimilate”. Srila Prabhupada could have used the words “realize, or understand, or learn, the knowledge but these words would have been more indicative of the process of obtaining materiel knowledge. The word assimilate is explained in the dictionary as “the transformation of food into living tissue” what Srila Prabhupada is trying to do when he uses this word is explain the process of the transformation of the consciousness of the jiva through the process of hearing. That our mundane consciousness becomes transformed into living spiritual consciousness by the process of hearing from the lotus lips of the pure devotee. The following verse from the Srimad Bhagavatam 3rd Canto, 25th Chapter, 33rd verse, sheds further light on this subject.

TRANSLATION

“Bhakti, devotional service, dissolves the subtle body of the living entity without separate effort, just as fire in the stomach digests all that we eat.”

The subtle body becomes digested by the process of devotional service. When this happens one becomes Mukta Purusha, liberated within the body. What is this liberation? The eternal spiritual form of the jiva now directly animates the senses of the body without the materiel false ego, mind, and intelligence as a filter between the soul and the body. One attains their real spiritual ego, mind, and intelligence, and senses as well. Hence the body also becomes purified and spiritualized.

To assimilate “the transformation of food into living tissue”, to dissolve and digest our subtle body is to have our mundane consciousness transformed into living spiritual consciousness by the process of hearing from the lotus lips of the pure devotee. This transformation process is explained in the Bhagavad Gita 4th chapter 24th verse in the purport by Srila Prabhupada.

“This material veil can be removed at once by Kåñëa consciousness; thus the offering for the sake of Kåñëa consciousness, the consuming agent of such an offering or contribution; the process of consumption, the contributor, and the result are-all combined together-Brahman, or the Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth covered by mäyä is called matter. Matter dovetailed for the cause of the Absolute Truth regains its spiritual quality. Kåñëa consciousness is the process of converting the illusory consciousness into Brahman, or the Supreme.”

This is further explained in the Caitanya Caritamrta Antya Lila 4th Chapter verses 192 and 193.

"At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Kåñëa accepts him to be as good as Himself."

"When the devotee's body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord."

When it says in the Srimad Bhagavatam Verse that the process of Bhakti, devotional service, dissolves the subtle body does it mean that this transformation take place through the performance of any of the 9 processes of devotional service? Srila Prabhupada explains the first and foremost process of devotional service in his purport to the 2nd Canto, 2nd Chapter, 36th verse of the Srimad Bhagavatam as follows:

“The bhakti-yoga process is practiced by the devotees in different methods like hearing, chanting, remembering, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, worshiping, praying, rendering service in love, becoming friendly, and offering all that one may possess. All nine methods are bona fide methods, and either all of them, some of them or even one of them can bring about the desired result for the sincere devotee. But out of all the nine different methods, the first one, namely hearing, is the most important function in the process of bhakti-yoga. Without hearing sufficiently and properly, no one can make any progress by any of the methods of practice. And for hearing only, all the Vedic literatures are there, compiled by authorized persons like Vyäsadeva, who is the powerful incarnation of Godhead.”

The Vedic literatures are there for hearing not reading. <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Reading</st1:place></st1:city> alone will not bring about the desired transformation as Srila Prabhupada says:

“To hear and explain them (the revealed scriptures) is more important than reading them. One can assimilate the knowledge of the revealed scriptures only by hearing and explaining”. Srila Prabhupada’s purport to 1:1:6 of the Srimad Bhagavatam

What are the different stages of the development of devotional service and when does one assimilate the knowledge of the revealed scriptures? Srila Prabhupada explains this in the 3rd Canto, 2nd Chapter, 5th verse as follows:

TRANSLATION

It was so observed by Vidura that Uddhava had all the transcendental bodily changes due to total ecstasy, and he was trying to wipe away tears of separation from his eyes. Thus Vidura could understand that Uddhava had completely assimilated extensive love for the Lord.

PURPORT

There are three different stages of development in devotional service. The first stage is that of following the regulative principles prescribed in the codes of devotional service, the second stage is that of assimilation and realization of the steady condition of devotional service, and the last stage is that of ecstasy symptomized by transcendental bodily expression.

In this purport Srila Prabhupada breaks down the stages of development in Bhakti Yoga. The first stage is vaidhi bhakti in which one strictly follows the regulative principles of devotional service. The second stage is Raganuga Bhakti spontaneous devotional service where one begins the real process of assimilation or transformation of the materiel to the spiritual and Bhava Bhakti where one becomes steady in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness and has almost zero interest in materiel nature. When one reaches the right stage in the assimilation process by the mercy of the sadhu then one is transformed and achieves the final stage of devotional service Prema Bhakti or ecstatic love of God. Dhira Govinda Prabhu is correct when he says that the divine knowledge received at initiation is received through the heart just as Lord Brahma received it just as the song says you will receive it. However, This transfer of ecstatic love, which is the real process of diksha, cannot take place if the sadhu is not manifest before you as will be explained in the following quotes from Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura:

“By associating with Vaisnavas, saintliness (sadhuta) will manifest in our hearts and sinfulness will completely be removed. When our hearts are clean a ray from the sun of prema will enter. This ray, which enriches our hearts with prema, comes from the heart of a saintly Vaisnava. This is the only way to attain prema and give up pratistha. It is the natural method to become a sadhu. All other ways are fruitless labor. In conclusion attaining ones transcendental nature is non-different from removing one’s temporary material nature.” Pratistha Parivarjana By Thakura Bhaktivinode

“The nature of Krsna Prema is such that it is only entrusted into the heart, of visuddha bhakta’s of Krsna and it has no other dwelling place. It is passed from one atma to another, just as lightning passes from one cloud to another. Gradually, by associating with Vaisnavas, the prema in the Vaisnava’s heart is naturally transmitted to the heart of the jiva. At that time wicked tendencies are removed from the heart of that jiva and a saintly nature manifests in him. All the exalted qualities that purify the heart and that accompany prema, become manifest. It is therefore our duty to remove the desire for pratistha by taking Sadhu Sanga.” Pratistha Parivarjana By Thakura Bhaktivinode

These two paragraphs follow the paragraph I quoted above in which Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura states that one cannot obtain prema by studying or discussing shastra, hearing shastra from persons who have not attained prema, nor by performing yoga exercises. It can only come by associating with and hearing the transcendental sound vibration from the lotus lips of the pure devotee. This kind of association and transformation can only happen if the pure devotee is manifesting his pastimes on the planet. If he is not then one cannot get that kind of personal association that will bring about assimilation of transcendental knowledge and transformation of the materiel body into a spiritual body. Taking Sadhu Sangha to remove pratistha or the false egotistical body can only be performed if the sadhu is manifest on the planet at the time you are taking his personal sangha. To think that you can get that kind of transformative sangha without the manifest presence of the sadhu on the planet is in itself false pride and disqualifies one from making any progress on the spiritual path. Srila Prabhupada concurs with this process of diksha as given by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura in the following verse and purport from the 10th Canto.

TRANSLATION

Thereafter, accompanied by plenary expansions, the fully opulent Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-auspicious for the entire universe, was transferred from the mind of Vasudeva to the mind of Devaké. Devaké, having thus been initiated by Vasudeva, became beautiful by carrying Lord Kåñëa, the original consciousness for everyone, the cause of all causes, within the core of her heart, just as the east becomes beautiful by carrying the rising moon.

PURPORT

As indicated here by the word manastaù, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaké. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaké not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by dékñä, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one’s own heart”.

10th Canto, 2nd Chapter, and 18th verse and purport by Srila Prabhupada

Devaki and Vasudeva are sitting in front of each other. Devaki is getting the personal sangha of her diksha guru who is now transferring the ray of Prema the Supreme Personality of Godhead directly into her heart from his heart. This is the real process of diksha, in person, person to person not from a million miles away. Here is an important example that should shed some more light on this point. Narada Muni is Tri Kala Jna. He knows past, present, and future. When Dhruva is looking for Krsna Narada knows it and he goes to that place and initiates him. When Pralahad needs a guru he goes to that place and recites scripture to him. When Vyasadeva is in despair Narada Muni goes there and instructs him. If this transcendental wisdom could be transmitted from a million miles away why didn’t Narada Muni do that? He could already see within his heart what was going on why did he not just send a ray of prema across the universe? Why is he personally flying all over the universe to be personally manifest before the disciple when he initiates and instructs them? Because that is the way that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is transferred from the heart of the sadhu to the heart of the disciple IN PERSON! Both parties have to be manifest before each other to consummate the process otherwise Narada Muni would not be flying all over the universe he would do it from a distance. One must hear the transcendental sound vibration from the lotus lips of the pure devotee when they are manifest before you in your personal presence then you can assimilate the knowledge of scripture and receive diksha otherwise not. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura sums it up best at the end of his article Thakura Bhaktivinode that we have previously quoted in the article as follows:

“In order to be put on the track of the Absolute, listening to the words of the pure devotee is absolutely necessary. The spoken word of the Absolute is the Absolute. It is only the Absolute Who can give Himself away to the constituents of His power. The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the conditioned soul in the form of the Name on the lips of the sadhu. This is the key to the whole position. The words of Thakura Bhaktivinoda direct the empiric pedant to discard his wrong method and inclination on the threshold of the real quest of the Absolute. If the pedant still chooses to carry his errors into the Realm of the Absolute Truth he only marches by a deceptive bye-path into the regions of darker ignorance by his arrogant study of the scriptures. The method offered by Thakura Bhaktivinoda is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krsna, the concrete Personal Absolute.” Thakura Bhaktivinode By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

“THE ABSOLUTE APPEARS TO THE LISTENING EAR OF THE CONDITIONED SOUL IN THE FORM OF THE NAME ON THE LIPS OF THE SADHU. THIS IS THE KEY TO THE WHOLE POSITION.”

“KRSNA'S DARSAN CAN ONLY BE ATTAINED THROUGH THE MEDIUM OF THE EAR AS ONE HEARS HARI-KATHA FROM PURE VAISNAVAS; THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.”

If the goal of initiation into Krishna Consciousness is to achieve Krishna Prema and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Darshan then this is the method, hearing the transcendental sound vibration from the lotus lips of the pure devotee through Personal Sadhu Sangha. There is no other way, There is no other way, There is no other way!

Now I did not want to increase the size of this article so I did not include the answers to your questions about the audio tapes, the video tapes, the initiations by mail, and the devotees who were initiated by Srila Prabhupada and never met Srila Prabhupada etc. I have answers to all of those questions and I will answer them as they are asked so as not to increase the bulk of this present article.

Shakti-Fan · May 26, 2006

Sound and Presence

BY: DHIRA GOVINDA DASA

May 16, ALACHUA, FLORIDA (SUN) —

The disciplic succession in the line of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is based on sound vibration, not on the formal initiation ceremony. Through sound vibration transcendental knowledge is conveyed. This is the essential aspect of the process of initiation. And this essential aspect is not dependent on formal initiation, though the processes of formal initiation are meant to serve and support the essential component of the initiation process, receiving transcendental knowledge. This knowledge of course inspires and drives devotional service. The process of formal initiation is generally recommended for conditioned souls, and should not be minimized or avoided. At the same time we don’t want to confuse the essence with externals that are meant to serve the spirit of the process.

We receive mercy from the parampara in the opportunity to hear from the members of the parampara. Hearing from the disciplic succession intrinsically implies transcendental sound vibration. Srila Prabhupada wrote to Rupanuga Prabhu “Anyone who reads the books that is also chanting and hearing. Why distinguish between chanting and book distribution? These books I have recorded and chanted, and they are transcribed. It is spoken kirtanas. So book distribution is also chanting. These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing.” (Oct. 19, 1974)

In Vaisnava societies the question has arisen whether the relationship between spiritual master and disciple necessitates physical presence. Of course there are numerous quotes from Srila Prabhupada regarding the primary importance of vani compared to vapu. Still, the controversy is there, with regards to the continuation of the disciplic succession, regarding the role of physical presence.

Srimad-Bhagavatam explains "Persons who are learned and who have true knowledge define sound as that which conveys the idea of an object, indicates the presence of a speaker screened from our view and constitutes the subtle form of ether." (SB 3.26.33)

I invite us to consider this verse with respect to the question of presence. Sound vibration indicates the presence of a speaker screened from view. So, when we hear Srila Prabhupada’s sound vibration, might we understand that he is, with reference to the above definition, present and screened from our view. This screening, of course, is a reflection of our limitations and not of Srila Prabhupada’s lack of full presence.

Lord Brahma received knowledge, was initiated into knowledge, from a Speaker screened from view. Does that indicate that the initiation was not valid, because the speaker remained concealed? Did Lord Brahma not have a living spiritual master, because the Speaker was screened from view? We understand from Srila Prabhupada that Lord Brahma received knowledge from within the heart. I think it’s important to realize that this is the case not just with Brahma. In any authentic relationship between guru and disciple, knowledge is received within the heart. "Divya jnan hrde prokoshito."

Genuine disciplic succession is based on sound, and it is also based on presence, though this presence is not mundane. My understanding is that even if the spiritual master, in the common sense of the term, is “physically present”, still he is screened from the view of conditioned souls. That is, his transcendental position is not seen, or understood. And, transcendental knowledge is conveyed through the heart. In a consciousness of receiving this knowledge, we open a direct relationship with the guru. His presence is manifest, and the essential process of diksa is alive within us. This consciousness that allows us to enter this relationship entails a conscious choice to serve our spiritual master.

Dhira Govinda dasa

April 21st, 2006

Beggar · May 26, 2006

With 14.56% of the vote for the "Prominent Link" theory, why should Dhira Govinda Prabhu admit defeat and quit? Maybe vox populi will prevail and the Democratic Republic of K.C. will come to pass.

bija · May 26, 2006

Beggar, thank you for your time and efforts in this. Hopefully we can utilize and scrutinize this to make the path clearer, amongst all the opinions that are appearing in recent discussions. I say this also on a personal level as I am aware of my position - neophyte. It is a real jungle out here!

I appreciate what you have to say, but have some questions.

You say that the personal presence of sadhu is necessary. Let me explain my situation. I have contact with Guru through modern technology. We use email, his website, chat, and occasionaly internet google talk (like a phone on the net). And hopefully oneday live video technology as in conference. I probably will not have the oppurtunity in this life to go to India to personally meet Gurudeva, due to financial and health reasons. More or less he is a "million miles away". Or is he?

What are your understandings on this? Is this personal association? Or are you saying something more fundamental? That we actually need to be in close proximity, not through use of technology.

Much looking forward to your comments.

Beggar · May 26, 2006

First of all I am not Bhagavat Prabhu. I saw his article on the Sampradaya Sun and posted it here. Here is a quote from another thread on this forum by Pakaja Prabhu. Many consider that the late Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was (is) a pure devotee:

Devotee #1: Sabda-brahma is Krishna in sound vibration?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. One has to hear. It is not that, "All right, tapes are there, I'll hear the recorded tapes." Sabda-brahma will never descend.

Devotee #2: It doesn't descend through transmission of tape?

Gour Govinda Swami: No, no.

Devotee #2: Only when you are personally sitting there with a pure vaisnava?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. Now in this material scientific age so many techniques are there. People, say, "No more teacher are required. We'll teach through television." Nonsense. Sabda-brahma will never descend.

Devotee #3: What if one is a disciple of a bonafide guru, then later on that guru stops his lila. What should one do?

Gour Govinda Swami: Lila is always there

Shakti-Fan · May 26, 2006

Anyone can say, "I am guru, he is not guru." Imitation is always possible, but the scriptures give the criterion for the selection of a real guru, and the real guru will extract the meaning of the scripture. Guru and sastra are interdependent. One will help another for our edification. The

Shakti-Fan · May 26, 2006

The scriptures say we must read the scripture under the guidance of a proper professor, a Vaisnava guru (acaryavan puruso veda). So, the scripture is dependent on the spiritual master. And who is a spiritual master? The scriptures will explain. So they are interdependent: sadhu and sastra are both necessary. They are the active and the passive agents.

bija · May 26, 2006

Beggar and Shakti-fan please assist me in understanding. What point are you trying to bring out in posting all this? There has been so much going on in the forum in the last week with all this initiation conversation. I am beginning to wonder whether all this talk is of any benefit really.

So they are interdependent: sadhu and sastra are both necessary. They are the active and the passive agents. quote shakti-fan

Beggar · May 28, 2006

What point are you trying to bring out in posting all this? There has been so much going on in the forum in the last week with all this initiation conversation. I am beginning to wonder whether all this talk is of any benefit really.

Back in '81 Srila Sridhar Maharaja mused about the guru conflict going on in the ISKCON community. He said that he was a "backwards pushing man"; that his nature was to avoid asserting himself and any kind of conflict. He generally advised those who had taken his divine shelter to take the same approach. Then he said ( I am paraphrasing), "actually some will run towards the battle, and that is their nature. Actually all of you are para dukha dukhi, you only care about the sufferring of others. I think that you want others to get what you received during the time of Swami Maharaja (Srila Prabhupada) and that is your concern".

During the time of Srila Prabhupada we all preached about the absolute necessity of a living guru or guide. This would often come up when we were speaking with Christians who claim that Jesus Christ was their guru and that there was no use of a living transendental via media to God. Now many of our godbrothers are preaching the same basic idea of the Protestent Christians and this has been going on in some form or other since 1980.

Over the years I've come across a number of Srila Prabhupada's direct initiated disciples who never had his personal association. Yet I remember that we all yearned to be in the Srila Prabhupada's personal presence and many of us took great risks such as the wrath of our temple president to due just that. We read his books, heard his books read in class and listened to his taped bhajans and lectures. But we also heard from our senior godbrothers and godsisters about the his amazing personal presence and association. When Srila Prabhupada's followers initiated or not, have the good fortune to have him come to them in a dream, what do they dream? That they are seeing him in a video? No, only if the dream is bizzare and distorted and then certainly disappointing. One wishes to dream that they are directly in Srila Prabhupada's presence and that they are directly hearing the nectarean words emanating from his lotus mouth. Whether the dream is real or not and no matter how much illusion we experience in our every day life our subconcious mind pines for his renewed association and it is the chanting of the Holy Names, the reading of the books and the hearing of the tapes etc. that fuels that fire within us, which is really our only hope. It is the same desire within us to serve Sri Krsna in His holy dhama and in His Pastimes. But now in our conditioned state Krsna can appear before us in a most tangible form, that of Sri Guru, His divine representation or representative. Why would Krsna create a situation where the sincere seekers would be bereft of the association of a pure sadhu or saint? Doesn't he say in the Bhagavad Gita yada yada hi dharmasya: Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself. And: acaryam mam vijaniyan navamanyeta karhicitna martya-buddhyasuyeta sarva-devamayo guruh

"Know the acarya, or guru, to be my very self. Never think of him as an ordinary man. Never disrespect him. Never find fault with him. The guru is the embodiment of all the demigods." Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27)

I don't wish to elaborate futher, that is for the real pundits. I don't know if trying to convince others like the so-called Rtviks about these points is "of any benefit" but I am sure that the proper siddhanta (conclusions) and tattva (truths) are most essential.

bija · May 28, 2006

Thank you for sharing Beggar. My feelings on the subject in discussion are similar.

I think what many of us are seeking in life is happiness, a happiness that can be found in loving relationships. This is so natural for us, but in many ways can be so far away. To come in contact with a teacher who is selfless in his endeavour of serving others (and disciples) and serving them for their full wellbeing is a rare treasure. We may be fortunate to find such relationships, and if we can find a spiritual master to reciprocate with in person; I think we are very very fortunate.

This loving example that can be found in guru/disciple relationship has the potential to be extended to the whole sangha. Then we are most fortunate. To nurture this relationship, in guru/disciple, family, extended family, sangha, community and extending onward and onward, is a wonderful ideal.

For this reason I think having the association of a living in the flesh (if I dare to say this in philosophical language of a Gaudiya) guru is a great gift. In person we can discover the nature of real relationship. We can read books, scripture, stories of guru's and saints and also discover this science of relationship. But especially in the presence of (in the flesh) guru we can discover relationship in a most intimate way, and begin to extend this to all we meet.

On the material plane it is most unfortunate that relationship is based on self seeking principles, by this really I think we are all infected. But saying this we all have the greatest potential within us. This potential is our innate, true, original nature. And I feel it is most important that we never lose sight of this. From this foundation we can really begin the work necessary for complete wholeness and healing. What is this innate nature? Yes. It is the nature of a servant.

As we begin to realise that something is fundamentally wrong in our dealings with each other it can be very overwhelming. And I feel that this is why we must not lose sight of our original nature and the nature of service.

Personally coming to this forum has been a matter of necessity for me. In trying to find a loving community. To try and find a way to develop service mentality. I have not yet found such relationships where I live.

After spending much time on this forum over the last months I still have not found this ideal. Why is this? Surely it is my fallen nature, and lack of spiritual maturity. But I have also found that much of the debate on dogma and many other things that have been going on in the forum lately have not been conducive for me in developing a humble state of mind and an inoffensive mindset in my heart. Also due to my ignorance and material consciousness.

For this reason I will be leaving the forum and hopefully try and find like minded souls (in person) where I live. This most likely will not be Hare Krsna's as there is no community where I live. But I so desperately need to find a tangible, in person sanga, where I may learn to be more self honest, humble, and can learn from the more advanced souls who I may meet. True sadhu sanga (to mold your life from the sadhu's example).

Saying this, what a rare gift it must be to have the association of a humble, bonafide, loving spiritual master (in person). Many of us may never find such a rare gift (this is why I have tried my best to be sensitive to some members here), but I pray and hope that one day we may all receive the mercy and association of such a one. And from that relationship, begin to extend the loving principle to all we meet, and be found worthy to live in the atmosphere of Vaikuntha and Navadvipa/Vrindavan dhama.

Thank you everyone for bearing with this most fallen soul over the last months, and may we all truly meet each other fully in the Kingdom one day. :pray:

sincerely.....bija.

Beggar · May 29, 2006

A Response to "The Manifest Presence of Sound"

BY: BALA DASA

May 26, USA (SUN) — Beware of Logic Leaping “Manifest Pure Devotees”.

In a recent rebuttal to Dhira Govinda Prabhu entitled

“The Manifest Presence of Sound”

, Bhagavat Das tacitly requests that we readers suspend our logical faculties as he does that very thing in order to get his illusory points across. I will illuminate his faulty line of reasoning as exemplified in the first ¼ of his article using a few examples among a score of the leaps of logic that characterize his article, and hope that the readers will be able to envision how others employing these methods represent clear and present danger to just waking up to Bhakti yoga. Bhagavat Das’ comments will be indicated by BD.

Bhagavat Das states his purpose: “The process of how we study his (Srila Prabhupada’s) books is of utmost importance and that is what I intend to explain in this article.”

First, he repeats a quotation from Srila Prabhupada as follows.

Srila Prabhupada wrote to Rupanuga Prabhu:

“Anyone who reads the books that is also chanting and hearing. Why distinguish between chanting and book distribution? These books I have recorded and chanted, and they are transcribed. It is spoken kirtanas. So book distribution is also chanting. These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing.” (Oct. 19, 1974)

Key statement to remember here: “Anyone who

reads the books

that is also

chanting and hearing”

Then he quotes Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur: “Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard.”

He claims the above statement “raises an important question about how one can access the hidden mysteries of the scriptures”

So what is his answer to this question?

BD: “If a person believes that they can study and understand the scriptures independent of the guidance of the manifest pure devotee through hearing the transcendental sound vibration from his lotus lips, than that interpretation of the scriptures contradicts its own claim to even be heard.”

So his conclusion is that the incorrect meaning of Scripture which belittles the function of the original communicant is automatically drawn by someone studying the scriptures

independent of the guidance

of a “MANIFEST pure devotee”

He previously defined the parameters of the above premise by defining “Manifest” by writing the following in regards to Dhira Govinda’s beliefs, saying: “Let’s see if he is really proposing that one can connect to the spiritual master through his books after he is no longer manifest on the planet.”

In his first attempt to back up his premise, he uses a statement from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati regarding misinterpretation of Bhaktivinode’s Life and Teachings.

“There have, however, already arisen serious misunderstandings regarding the proper interpretation of the life and teachings of Srila Thakura Bhaktivinoda. Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya are disposed to unduly favor the methods of empiric study of his writings. There are persons who have got by heart almost everything that he wrote without being able to catch the least particle of his meaning. Such study cannot benefit those who are not prepared to act up to the instructions lucidly conveyed by his words. There is no honest chance of missing the warnings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda. Those, therefore, who are misled by the perusal of his writings are led astray by their own obstinate perversity in sticking to the empiric course which they prefer to cherish against his explicit warnings. Let these unfortunate persons look more carefully into their own hearts for the cause of their misfortunes. The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakura Bhaktivinoda.”

Here is how Bhagavat Das uses the above to support his Theory.

BD: “Srila Saraswati Thakura states that without the guiding grace of the manifest acharya and the personal service to his lotus feet the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakura Bhaktivinode cannot be understood. Some may try to misinterpret the meaning of these words to say that the pure devotee can be served even after his manifest pastimes and this is indeed true.”

This was my first hint that he was about to wander astray from logic, or else why does he set up his next statement with a such a contradiction. How can a misinterpretation be true? He plants the seed that he is about to address “Some” who “may try to misinterpret”, and then concedes that it is not really a misinterpretation?? Then he goes on.

BD: “However why then is Srila Saraswati Thakura making an issue of the fact that even those who memorize the books of the Thakura cannot understanding their meaning without being under the guidance of the Acharya?”

There is an answer to this question, but as I will show it is not what Bhagavat Das thinks it is.

If the acahrya he is talking about is the one who is not manifest at present than what guidance would he give accept that which is in his books which Srila Saraswati Thakura is saying one cannot understand without the guiding grace of the Acharya.

Now hearken back to the original full context, and we can see that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta addresses this directly.

“There have, however, already arisen serious misunderstandings regarding the proper interpretation of the life and teachings of Srila Thakura Bhaktivinoda.”

He is addressing those who seek to understand the TEACHINGS of Bhakitvinode.

“Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya are disposed to unduly favor the methods of empiric study of his writings.”

Without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya they favor empiric study and miss Bhaktivinode’s message.

“There are persons who have got by heart almost everything that he wrote without being able to catch the least particle of his meaning.”

They memorized the words only.

“Such study cannot benefit

those who are

not prepared to act up to the instructions lucidly conveyed by his words.”

So here we see it is an inner orientation based on sincerity, or lack thereof which counts. Those who are not prepared to act up to the instructions “lucidly conveyed by his words” are the ones who study superficially, and “are misled by the perusal of his writings (and) are led astray by their own obstinate perversity in sticking to the empiric course”

Bhaktivinode gave LUCID INSTRUCTIONS, that were not obeyed. This is not pleasing to him. Thus such persons are not serving his pleasure. Thus they do not secure the grace of the Acharya or teacher who is instructing them. And they are criticized by Bhaktisiddhanta in order that others who wish to understand Bhaktivinode or any Acharya might get the clue that they need to follow their instructions. Quite Simple.

Now that we have heard from Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu’s own lotus lips as to what he meant, let us see how Bhagavat Das tries to use this to support his premise. First to repeat the question

“However why then is Srila Saraswati Thakura making an issue of the fact that even those who memorize the books of the Thakura cannot understanding their meaning without being under the guidance of the Acharya?”

Bhagavat Das says next…

BD: “If the acahrya he is talking about is the one who is not manifest at present than what guidance would he give accept that which is in his books which Srila Saraswati Thakura is saying one cannot understand without the guiding grace of the Acharya.”

* Remember Guiding Grace is received when the Guidance or instructions are followed and acted on, not memorized as empty words.

BD: “Which acharya? Obviously the present manifest acharya, himself.”

Here Bhagavat Das reveals his agenda. Obviously, he says, the acharya Bhaktisiddhanta is speaking of is himself? The “present manifest acharya”? Not so obvious to me. But he reveals his bias towards the Supreme importance of a so called “present manifest acharya”

He goes on to try to show that Bhaktivinode Thakur agrees with his “assessment” (read speculation).

BD: “Let’s see if Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura agrees with this assessment. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura states as follows:

“What can we gather from the words of this Mahajana Srila Ragunatha Das Goswami? We understand that the desire for pratistha can never be removed by studying and discussing shastra, by hearing instructions from those who have not attained prema, nor by practicing various bodily processes of yoga. It can only be removed by associating with and serving visuddha vaisnavas. Having searched for and found such vaisnavas, it is our ultimate goal to associate with and serve them.” Pratistha Parivarjana By Thakura Bhaktivinode

BD: “Here Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura is very direct, You cannot remove the false egotistical covering (pratistha) and realize your true spiritual form by studying books, discussing books, hearing books being recited by those who are not Prema Bhaktas or by doing yoga exercise…”

I’m sorry, that is not exactly what Bhaktivinode says. Using a Neither/Nor statement (“Neither” implied) he lists three separate processes which cannot remove the desire for paratistha.

by studying and discussing shastra

by hearing instructions from those who have not attained prema

nor by practicing various bodily processes of yoga

So what can remove the desire?

“It can only be removed by

associating

with and

serving

visuddha vaisnavas.”

Of course

serving

my Acharya and Prema Bhakta, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami, INCLUDES studying and discussing shastra, especially as he explained in his purports how he, a pure devotee, understands its meaning. But that alone is not total service, as there were instructions which I HEARD from him, but also need to be FOLLOWED.

And he stressed that

association

is through sound vibration and his physical presence is not necessary. Among dozens of similar statements to that effect is the following.

Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. SP Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67

Unfortunately, here is where Bhagavat Das falls irrevocably into the realm of speculation by next stating that what Bhaktivinode was really saying was that…

BD: “Only by direct association of vishuddha vaishnava’s which

are presently manifesting their pastimes on the planet.”

(can one remove the desire for pratistha).

Obviously equating direct association with one needing to be presently manifesting pastimes on the planet is his own speculative convention, as he fails to back this up with quotes from any Prema Bhakta, but gives his own defense…

BD: “If you were to interpret this association with the pure devotees to include those who were not manifest on the planet at this time then you would have to associate through the books which have already been rejected as a way for the condition soul to remove pratistha by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura.”

Oops. Too bad he didn’t have a time machine so he could have read this article.

Once more though, he uses a quote from A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami in an attempt to justify his position.

BD: “One may ask does Srila Prabhupada teach this. Let’s look at the following purport by Srila Prabhupada.”

“One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava.” Purport to CC Antya 7:53 By Srila Prabhupada

BD: “Srila Prabhupada repeats the same concept as Thakura Bhaktivinode by saying if one is full of pratistha (pride) and thinks he can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books then his conclusion is wrong. One must become the servant of a manifest Vaishnava.”

There is that glaring “Manifest” agenda again, so strongly imposing upon his mind that he hears it where it is not spoken.

Regardless, a proud person thinking they can understand loving service SIMPLY by reading books, cannot, despite all the sophistry at his beck and call, be construed to mean anything but what it “simply” states. My Srila Prabhupada mentions only one method being employed by these proud people. And we know that simply or ONLY reading books will not suffice.

This type of false reasoning continues, and does not bear repeating.

What is important to me to finally convey to anyone reading here who may have initially agreed with the illusory arguments of Bhagavat Das is what causes someone like him to make such mistakes, and what it means to anyone who is initially taken in by his pronouncements and where it could lead for an innocent aspirant.

I will illustrate by asking a question. Why the constant focus on there need for there to be a pure devotee Acharya in a physical body or “manifest” on the planet in order to understand Srila Prabhupada’s books and instructions?

To answer this question, a hint is in the following quote by Bhagavat Das from deeper into the previous article in question.

BD: “It is true that the presence of the author, Srila Prabhupada, is not required to understand the books. However to understand his books properly not even Srila Prabhupada’s purports will serve to fully explain their real meaning. The manifest presence of someone who knows the subject matter is absolutely required.”

Now take into consideration all of the other false arguments he made, and how if you read his article carefully, he constantly puts words into my Srila Prabhupada’s mouth that were not his, like “manifest” and hearing “with your ears” etc.

He continually harps on a need for an acharya or guru “manifesting his pastimes on this planet” like here…

BD: “Unfortunately Dhira Govinda Prabhu fails to explain that the Spiritual Master has to make a conscious choice to accept the service of the disciple. This is done when the particular guru who is representing the Sampradaya is manifesting his pastimes on this planet.”

This even though Srila Prabhupada accepted service of hundreds of disciples BY PROXY WITHOUT EVER MEETING THEM, and that after he was gone officiating acharyas could continue to accept disciples on his behalf.

So Bhagavat Das now says that to understand the books, one needs the manifest presence of someone who knows the subject matter.

So first the acharya is dead and gone. No longer manifest. Unable to receive direct service anymore. As a matter of fact Bhagavat Das goes so far as to propose that he has a direct line on where the Latest great acharya is!

BD: “Srila Prabhupada is presently preparing to initiate on another planet in another universe and is no longer making conscious decisions to accept disciples on this planet in this universe.”

So now it only stands to reason, that parallel to his assumption that only by having the “manifestly present acharya” in the person of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati to reiterate the “LUCID instructions” of dead and gone Bhaktivinode, and serving Bhaktisiddhanta “directly” (giving him massage? Doing his laundry?) can one understand Bhaktivinode’s instructions…

That similarly, today and from here on in, the only way a person can “understand” Srila Prabhupada’s purports and instructions is via a “presently manifest pure devotee acharya???”

Uh-Oh. Who might that be?

Truly, anyone who knows the subject matter of his books can aid someone with questions and help them understand my Srila Prabhupada’s teachings. But to KNOW it requires more than memorization of the words, but “acting up to the instructions” and knowing in their hearts.

MY POINT is that there are Hundreds if not Thousands of people who have not yet taken to HEART and ACTED UPON the INSTRUCTIONS offered by the Great Acharya A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and these same persons, having good MEMORY know the material in his books quite well, and are more than ready to satisfy their natural human need for gratification of the subtle senses of fame and prestige without earning it and will

twist and distort

my Srila Prabhupada’s words and even claim inside knowledge of his current whereabouts and whatever else it takes to gain the attention of naïve and unwitting souls.

Thus by banking on Srila Prabhupada’s charisma and flowery words of his Veda, they are satisfying, in a perverted way, their need for attention, fame, and even YOUR FORTUNE if you are not Careful.

Be especially aware of anyone who claims that you cannot understand my Srila Prabhupada’s books and instructions without another person to interpret them for you!!! If you can read English and can and are willing to follow his instructions, that is good enough, and you will gradually understand the purport of his teachings. Welcome to Bhakti Yoga.

This type of thing makes me angry and sad, and that is why I spent the last 3 hours in this labor of love.

And to Bhagavat Das, I am sorry if my style of writing and exposing your illusion causes you pain and I hope that you yourself will be more careful what you say in public around innocent people.

Hare Krsna

your servant,

Bala Das

Real Process is Hearing

BY: BHAGAVAT DAS ACBSP

May 28, USA (SUN) —

My Dear Bala Dasa, I personally feel no pain from your statements. However, I feel sorry that you are unable to understand the direct and unambiguous statements of the Acharya’s. Please understand that the service of the manifest Acharya does not necessarily have to do with giving massage and doing laundry for him. Although Narottama Das Thakura obtained the mercy of Lokanatha Goswami by cleaning the place where he passed stool everyday. However, if you read my article carefully you would have seen that this type of service is not the focus of what I wrote about. The service that I repeatedly mentioned which is absolutely and ultimately required to achieve Prema is to hear the transcendental sound vibration from the lotus lips of the pure devotee who is manifest in the present in front of you so you can hear with your ears.

You accuse me of putting words in Srila Prabhupada’s mouth as follows:

Bala Dasa Says: Now take into consideration all of the other false arguments he made, and how if you read his article carefully, he constantly puts words into my Srila Prabhupada’s mouth that were not his, like “manifest” and hearing “with your ears” etc.

Did you not read the quote that Srila Saraswati Thakura made which I put in the article? Let me refresh your memory:

“KRSNA'S DARSAN CAN ONLY BE ATTAINED THROUGH THE MEDIUM OF THE EAR AS ONE HEARS HARI-KATHA FROM PURE VAISNAVAS; THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.”

If Krsna’s Darshan (seeing Krishna) is the goal and Srila Saraswati Thakur states that this vision of Krishna is only attained through the medium of the ears as one hears Hari Katha from a pure Vaishnava then how do you interpret this to mean reading a book with your eyes when the pure Vaishnava is not standing there in front of you speaking. Do you think Srila Prabhupada is teaching something different than Srila Saraswati Thakura let me show you some quotes of Srila Prabhupada’s that again mirrors this statement of his guru maharaja:

... “Here is another important point. We have to learn by listening from somebody. We approach guru for hearing from him the truth. Just like child listens from the parents and he learns to speak, he learns to know what is what…….. So hearing is very important. Therefore our bhakti process, bhakti-yoga process is hearing. The more you give aural reception to the transcendental message, more you become expert. Everyone has got God-gifted instrument, this ear. And if we give aural reception, we'll learn”

Srila Prabhupada is giving the example here that the child hears with his ears from the mouth of his parents who are in front of him not from a book. Srila Prabhupada says we have a God-gifted instrument the ear and we learn by listening from somebody who is manifest before you. Srila Prabhupada says by giving aural reception with your ear to the transcendental message from the mouth of the guru before you then you will learn. Srila Prabhupada says this, these are not my words they are his words read what the quote says. Srila Prabhupada says

“bhakti-yoga process is hearing”

welcome to the real process of bhakti yoga Bala dasa. These are Srila Prabhupada’s words please take note of them.

“Simply you lend your ear to the discourses given by realized souls. This is recommended. And when you hear, then you contemplate also. Just like you are hearing me. Sruti means just receiving through the ear”.

Here again Srila Prabhupada says by giving aural reception with your ear to the transcendental message from his mouth.

Just like you are hearing me. Sruti means just receiving through the ear”.

Srila Prabhupada is present before his disciples speaking with his mouth and he tells his disciples who are listening to the words from his mouth with their ears:

“Just like you are hearing me. Sruti means just receiving through the ear”.

These are Srila Prabhupada’s words not mine. He is saying that it is recommended that you lend your ear to the discourses given by realized souls. These are Srila Prabhupada’s words not mine.

“One must hear from those who are in the line of preceptorial succession, or disciplic succession.

Another meaning of the word srotriyam mentioned above is “one who has heard from a guru in the disciplic succession.” And the result of this hearing will be brahma-niñöham,

“The Upaninads inform us that the guru is one who has received knowledge by hearing the Vedas. Srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12]. The Vedas are called sruti, and the bona fide guru is in the line of hearing from the disciplic succession. As stated in Bhagavad-gita (4.2), evam parampara-praptam. A bona fide guru does not impart some self-styled, concocted knowledge; his knowledge is standard and received from the parampara system. He is also firmly fixed in the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (brahma-nistham). These are his two qualifications: he must have heard the Vedic knowledge through the disciplic succession, and he must be established in service to the Supreme Lord. He does not have to be a very learned scholar, but he must have heard from the proper authority. God gives us the ears to hear, and simply by hearing we may become great preachers”. TLK-VS. 4

Over and over Srila Prabhupada emphasizes hearing: The guru receives knowledge by

hearing

. The bona fide guru is in the line of

hearing

. He must have

heard

through the disciplic succession. God gives us ears to

hear

. Simply by

hearing

we may become great preachers. These are all Srila Prabhupada’s words not mine!

What does this have to do with the eyes and reading books? Still not convinced here is some more:

“So hearing is so important. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's preaching work... Caitanya Mahaprabhu's, this propaganda of sankirtana movement, He has given stress on this hearing process.

Regardless of one’s condition of life, if he practices bhakti-yoga, which begins with hearing (sruti-gatam) the transcendental messages of the Lord through the mouths of devotees, he gradually conquers the unconquerable God”.

<CENTER>

VERSE

</CENTER>

My dear Lord, You are glorified by the selected verses uttered by great personalities. Such glorification of Your lotus feet is just like saffron particles. When the transcendental vibration from the mouths of great devotees carries the aroma of the saffron dust of Your lotus feet, the forgetful living entity gradually remembers his eternal relationship with You. Devotees thus gradually come to the right conclusion about the value of life. My dear Lord, I therefore do not need any other benediction but the opportunity to hear from the mouth of Your pure devotee.

<CENTER>

PURPORT

</CENTER>

It is explained in the previous verse that one has to hear glorification of the Lord from the mouth of a pure devotee. This is further explained here. The transcendental vibration from the mouth of a pure devotee is so powerful that it can revive the living entity’s memory of his eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In our material existence, under the influence of illusory mäyä, we have almost forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord, exactly like a man sleeping very deeply who forgets his duties. In the Vedas it is said that every one of us is sleeping under the influence of maya. We must get up from this slumber and engage in the right service, for thus we can properly utilize the facility of this human form of life. As expressed in a song by Öhäkura Bhaktivinoda, Lord Caitanya says, jiva jaga, jiva jaga. The Lord asks every sleeping living entity to get up and engage in devotional service so that his mission in this human form of life may be fulfilled. This awakening voice comes through the mouth of a pure devotee.

A pure devotee always engages in the service of the Lord, taking shelter of His lotus feet, and therefore he has a direct connection with the saffron mercy-particles that are strewn over the lotus feet of the Lord. Although when a pure devotee speaks the articulation of his voice may resemble the sound of this material sky, the voice is spiritually very powerful because it touches the particles of saffron dust on the lotus feet of the Lord. As soon as a sleeping living entity hears the powerful voice emanating from the mouth of a pure devotee, he immediately remembers his eternal relationship with the Lord, although up until that moment he had forgotten everything.

For a conditioned soul, therefore, it is very important to hear from the mouth of a pure devotee, who is fully surrendered to the lotus feet of the Lord without any material desire, speculative knowledge or contamination of the modes of material nature. Every one of us is kuyogi because we have engaged in the service of this material world, forgetting our eternal relationship with the Lord as His eternal loving servants. It is our duty to rise from the kuyoga platform to become suyogis, perfect mystics. The process of hearing from a pure devotee is recommended in all Vedic scriptures, especially by Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu. One may stay in his position of life-it does not matter what it is-but if one hears from the mouth of a pure devotee, he gradually comes to the understanding of his relationship with the Lord and thus engages in His loving service, and his life becomes completely perfect. Therefore, this process of hearing from the mouth of a pure devotee is very important for making progress in the line of spiritual understanding. SB 4-20-25

In order to emphasize the point given in this verse and purport we are going to list and number the phrases that state the importance of hearing from the Lotus Mouth of a Pure Devotee.

1) When the transcendental vibration from the mouths of great devotees

2) I therefore do not need any other benediction but the opportunity to hear from the mouth of Your pure devotee.

3) one has to hear glorification of the Lord from the mouth of a pure devotee.

4) The transcendental vibration from the mouth of a pure devotee.

5) This awakening voice comes through the mouth of a pure devotee.

6) As soon as a sleeping living entity hears the powerful voice emanating from the mouth of a pure devotee.

7) it is very important to hear from the mouth of a pure devotee,

8) The process of hearing from a pure devotee is recommended in all Vedic scriptures,

9) if one hears from the mouth of a pure devotee,

10) This process of hearing from the mouth of a pure devotee is very important

Ten times this same point is being made, to hear from the mouth of the pure devotee. Srila Prabhupada repeats this over and over again for a reason. It is to make it absolutely clear that you must hear from the mouth of a pure devotee who is manifest before you with your ear as mentioned in five previous quotes. Reading alone will not do. The real mercy comes from hearing from the Lotus Mouth of the Pure Devotee with your ears. This is explained in the verse and elaborated on in the purport by Srila Prabhupada.

In the verse Maharaja Prthu explains the importance of hearing from the Lotus Mouth of a pure devotee as follows:

“When the transcendental vibration from the mouths of great devotees carries the aroma of the saffron dust of Your lotus feet, the forgetful living entity gradually remembers his eternal relationship with You.”

In the purport Srila Prabhupada gives us the actual process of how the transcendental vibration from the mouths of great devotees carries the aroma of the saffron particles as follows:

Although when a pure devotee speaks the articulation of his voice may resemble the sound of this material sky, the voice is spiritually very powerful because it touches the particles of saffron dust on the lotus feet of the Lord.

When the voice of the pure devotee emanates from his voice box it is infused with the aroma of saffron particles from the Lotus Feet of the Lord. That is because it has touched those saffron particles on the Lotus Feet of the Lord who resides in the spiritual heart of the spiritual body of the pure devotee within his external spiritualized body. It is the aroma of this saffron dust that acts like transcendental smelling salts to wake up the sleeping living entities from their deep slumber in Maya. This transcendental aroma is not revealed inside the words of the books or tapes when you read them or hear them unless you are reading and hearing them under the direct guidance of a realized soul. Please show me the mechanism on the printing press and the tape recorder that captures the aroma of the saffron particles from the lotus feet of the Lord. No such mechanism exists within an inanimate object. The transcendental aroma of the saffron particles comes from the lotus feet of the Lord within the living spiritual heart of the living spiritual body of the pure devotee who resides within his external spiritualized body while he is manifest on the planet. Life comes from life and spiritual life comes from spiritual life not from inanimate objects. Those objects only become completely animate when they are used directly under the guidance of the manifest pure devotee who speaks the transcendental sound vibration in a spiritualized body with his lotus mouth to our spiritually deaf ears!

HEARING, HEARING, AND MORE HEARING, this is the prescription Srila Prabhupada keeps emphasizing. The process of hearing the transcendental sound vibration from the mouth and the lips of the manifest pure devotee who is manifesting his pastimes on the planet in his human form and the use of the ear to hear that transcendental sound vibration is the method for obtaining Krsnas Darshan and according to Srila Saraswati Thakura and these above quotes of Srila Prabhupada THERE IS NO OTHER WAY!

Still not convinced? Than read the following quotes of Srila Prabhupada:

“Reading or hearing from the realized person there is no difference, but hearing the sound vibration from the realized soul is still more effective, better”.

“Rather, hearing is better reception. If you hear... That Vedas are therefore known as sruti. Sruti means it is received through hearing. Real process is hearing.”

Let’s say that one more time

REAL PROCESS IS HEARING!

Srila Prabhupada has on occasion equated reading with hearing but he never once elevates the reading process above the hearing process in anything he has ever said or written. However Srila Prabhupada has many, many, times elevated the hearing process over the reading process as I have demonstrated in these quotes and now Srila Prabhupada boldly declares

REAL PROCESS IS HEARING

.

The purpose of reading the books is to understand this point only, that Sadhu Sangha (hearing the transcendental sound vibration from the lotus lips of the Sadhu) is the only way to attain the goal of receiving darshan of Krsna and Krsna Prema.

So Bala Das if you have a problem with all of these quotes of Srila Prabhupada and his guru maharaja then argue with them and stop falsely accusing me of putting words into Srila Prabhupada’s mouth. Explain to Srila Prabhupada what the real process of hearing is by writing what you imagine it to be instead of accepting the direct unambiguous meaning of the above mentioned quotes by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada gave me both hari nam and diksha in person by directly speaking the mantras with his lotus mouth into my ear and personally accepted me as his disciple. At my Gayatri diksha initiation He told all the life members assembled there “This is my disciple Bhagavat Das, he is very sincere.” He is also my Srila Prabhupada.

Your Worthless Servant

Bhagavat Das

theist · May 29, 2006

Beggar,

I don't wish to join in any debate but I have one question I would like to ask you and I mean it to require a very straight forwqard yes or no answer with any qualifiers you care to add coming AFTER that. Please indulge me.

Those disciples of Srila Prabhupada who received gayatri mantra from Srila Prabhupada via tape and under his specific direction and intent, are they truly initiated in your opinion? Yes or no please.

Thank you.

theist · May 30, 2006

Bump to top

May 30, 2006

Bala Das' latest reply to Bhagavat Das, Posted on Sampradaya Sun, May 30, 2006.

Sounds of Silence - A Response to Bhagavat Das

BY: BALA DASA

May 30, USA (SUN) — Dear Bhagavat Das, Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to our Srila Prabhuapda, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.

I read your latest article with great interest. I have heard you out.

You have a very advanced understanding, according to your memory or ability to do research. What you write about the process of hearing from a personal presence as being non-different from reading purport or commentary on scripture, but considered to be MORE beneficial is straight from the mind of our Spiritual Master.

In my opinion, you have neglected to take into consideration why Srila Prabhupada felt it a necessity to often emphasize the non-difference in this matter. And as a result, you put yourself in a precarious position emphasizing the “highest” realization on this issue. And you have proved, as I will show, to have stumbled from being perched so precariously and been overly zealous and lacking in care with your presentation. As we share the same love of our Spiritual master, please accept this letter as an effort of teamwork, a helping hand, as I know you would extend to me.

As I hinted at, your latest article was full of good evidence that we must listen to the words of a Pure Devotee, and that hearing from the mouth is ultimately the most effective. This is especially so in the more advanced stages of Bhakti Sadhana, as evidenced by the following quote:

“The influence of the pure devotee is such that if someone comes to associate with him with a little faith, he gets the chance of hearing about the Lord from authoritative scriptures like Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. This is the first stage of association with the pure devotee.”

(Nectar of Devotion, (1982 Ed.), p146)

So considering the fallen nature of his audience, and the leapfrogging nature displayed by so many of his ambitious disciples, and evidence early on in his mission that they were claiming advancement they had not truly gained, Srila Prabhupada was often very careful to advise to take small steps, and gave extra clarification on certain issues so that ambitious disciples could not use his teachings in any justifiable way to point to themselves as the via media (hey I am standing manifest in front of you, that is just Prabhupada’s book) before they had the purity.

Thus quotes like the one above regarding hearing by reading being non-different than hearing and though the first stage, it is ACTUAL ASSOCIATION WITH THE PURE DEVOTEE. And also the following.

“So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association. “

(Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

Paramahamsa: My question is, a pure devotee, when he comments on Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with the commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-Gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty?”

(Morning Walk, Paris 11/6/74)

“These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing.”

(Letter to Rupanuga Das, 19/10/74)

Narayana: So those disciples who don't have the opportunity to see you or speak with you...

Srila Prabhupada: That he was speaking, vani and vapuh. Even if you don't see his body, you take his words, vani.”

(Room conversation, 21/7/75)

So given our Srila Prabhupada’s caution in his instruction in this regard, and to those with the gift of intellectual acuity the obvious reasons for doing so, and given the fact that on the whole we westerners were largely of the same level of spiritual advancement according to sukriti, (about zero), it seems prudent to me to be cautious as well to take his wisdom filled approach as acharya into consideration when preaching, and consider the audience.

I say that you stumbled. I claim that you have been overzealous in your presentation of instruction according to Srila Prabhupada. Here is my reasoning. You have repeated learned words regarding the fine distinctions between hearing and reading. Yet you have resorted to misinterpretations and misquotings as well. In your latest reply to me, where you stridently defend that you did nothing but quote Srila Prabhupada exactly in the last article you wrote, while not actually giving evidence to debunk my specific instances claimed (perhaps because I used keywords in allusion) you also go on to do the same thing again. And this time I will reprint the mistake in entirety.

From “Real Process is Hearing: May 28, USA (SUN) by Bhagavat Das:

First you quote our Srila Prabhupada.

“Here is another important point. We have to learn by listening from somebody. We approach guru for hearing from him the truth. Just like child listens from the parents and he learns to speak, he learns to know what is what…….. So hearing is very important. Therefore our bhakti process, bhakti-yoga process is hearing. The more you give aural reception to the transcendental message, more you become expert. Everyone has got God-gifted instrument, this ear. And if we give aural reception, we'll learn”

Then you interpret.

BD: Srila Prabhupada says we have a God-gifted instrument the ear and we learn by listening from somebody who is manifest before you. Bala Das - He never says manifest before you.

BD: Srila Prabhupada says by giving aural reception with your ear to the transcendental message from the mouth of the guru before you then you will learn.

Bala Das - He never says the Guru before you. Though I concede that is the implication using the analogy of the child learning to speak, he was also in context of his mission careful to point out at other times that the first stage of association is perfectly well established by hearing his books, and that no physical presence is required.

BD: Prabhupada says this, these are not my words they are his words read what the quote says.

Bala Das - here you show you are having a hard time relating to your audience, in this case, me, as you had no feel for the standard I would hold you to. I read what the quote says. They are your words and his mixed. Not as you claimed.

A small thing on some levels but an important indicator of a potentially serious problem which is why I hold this issue to the light.

You originally replied to Dhira Govinda Prabhu’s statements. I happen to know that he provides siksa shelter for a great many souls who have been mislead by miscreants who have insisted that without serving their lotus feet, and HEARING FROM THEIR LOTUS LIPS, that the aspirant has no chance at spiritual progress as Prabhupada’s books are not sufficient even as a “first stage”.

Have you ever thought that he has the same knowledge that you and I do regarding what forms of association are best suited to the advanced stages of bhakti, when the creeper has grown close to the brahmajyoti and there is strong attachment? Are you aware of the particular siksa relationship he has engaged with certain souls and the level of advancement to which he speaks? From what I have read, you were simply engaging in a spirit of philosophical oneupsmanship without considering the context.

As this is an open letter on a public forum, I will not pretend that there are not others reading this as well, and as I said, I am sorry if this stern truth causes you any hard feelings being presented outwardly like this.

If you were taking into consideration the audience, there would be no reason to make any even slight mistake in quoting Srila Prabhupada to convince your point. This means that your memorization of Scriptural truth is not matched by your practice of the instructions within. I have been guilty of this as well, and know of which I speak. You seem sincere so I believe hearing this analysis from me will be of immediate benefit to you and to all Vaisnava’s you instruct in the future.

Best regards,

Bala Das

Beggar · May 30, 2006

Beggar,
I don't wish to join in any debate but I have one question I would like to ask you and I mean it to require a very straight forwqard yes or no answer with any qualifiers you care to add coming AFTER that. Please indulge me.

Those disciples of Srila Prabhupada who received gayatri mantra from Srila Prabhupada via tape and under his specific direction and intent, are they truly initiated in your opinion? Yes or no please.

Thank you.

Yes, because of his status as a mahabhagavat and shaktyavesa avatara of Lord Nityananda. Even if a sincere high madhyama adhikari guru uses such a process then Nityananda Prabhu, who is the akhanda guru, may make up for any apparent lacking, yoga ksemam vahamy aham. I carry what they lack and preserve what they have (BG 9.22) This being said, one disciple of Srila Prabhupada told me that the tape malfunctioned so he actually received the gayatri mantras from the temple president who was unbenownst to him, having an affair with his wife. Given this kind of possibility try to receive the mantras directly by hook or by crook. I think in the final anaysis this is all dependent on ones sukriti.

Kulapavana · May 30, 2006

During the time of Srila Prabhupada we all preached about the absolute necessity of a living guru or guide. This would often come up when we were speaking with Christians who claim that Jesus Christ was their guru and that there was no use of a living transendental via media to God. Now many of our godbrothers are preaching the same basic idea of the Protestent Christians and this has been going on in some form or other since 1980.

in both cases such philosophy was born out of extreme abuse of authority by the "living representatives of God". going from one extreme to another. first Iskcon developed a concept of absolute necessity of a living guru, then it went to the other extreme... both are actually false to one degree or another.

May 30, 2006

in both cases such philosophy was born out of extreme abuse of authority by the "living representatives of God". going from one extreme to another. first Iskcon developed a concept of absolute necessity of a living guru, then it went to the other extreme... both are actually false to one degree or another.

The following essay by Kshamabuddhi Prabhu, posted today on the Sampradaya Sun, in response to the debate which started this thread, shows very concisely that Srila Prabhupada did all he could to set up a system that would serve the purposes of guiding one to attain Love of Krishna, and guarding against abuse of authority by so-called "livingmanifest" or "physically present" Diksa Gurus who are NOT Qualified or Authorized to act as such.

Srila Prabhupada's Living Example Defies Dogma

BY: KSHAMABUDDHI DAS (ACBSP)

May 30, USA (SUN) — In regards to the current discussion and debate concerning the process of hearing from the spiritual master, there are a couple of important points that need to be addressed. On one side we have the argument that reading the books of Srila Prabhupada is the same as hearing from him directly. On the other side we have the argument and subsequent quotes that support the idea that we must hear directly from the mouth of the spiritual master and that reading the books of Srila Prabhupada is in itself an insufficient process.

While arguing theoretical concepts and historical accounts might seem to be a solid foundation for debate, we must ultimately examine the practices and principles that were practically applied by Srila Prabhupada in ISKCON. Theoretical knowledge of tradition and scripture will not give us a complete picture of how Srila Prabhupada practically applied and implemented the principles of devotional service in ISKCON.

The ISKCON model as established by Srila Prabhupada included mantra diksha by tape recording and initiation of disciples that might have never even heard directly or seen directly Srila Prabhupada.

So, according to the position of Sriman Bhagavat Das, Srila Prabhupada did not practice what he preached in regards to hearing directly from the spiritual master. According to Sriman Bhagavat das, Srila Prabhupada violated the rules and laws of disciplic succession by authorizing initiations that contravened the principles of disciplic succession.

If we remember back to the actual practices and principles that Srila Prabhupada employed in ISKCON, we will see that, by his deeds and by his acts, Srila Prabhupada definitely objects to the dogmatic, stereotyped interpretation of parampara that Sriman Bhagavat das has presented in his articles. We will see that Srila Prabhupada accepted disciples that he had never seen, that had never seen him or heard him directly.

So, while Sriman Bhagavat das proudly makes his claim to being a direct disciple of Srila Prabhupada, we are quite surprised that he is overlooking the working model and practical example that Srila Prabhupada set during his presence. Sriman Bhagavat das himself seems to be the one guilty of possessing book knowledge, yet overlooking the actual examples and practices that Srila Prabhupada gave to ISKCON.

Srila Prabhupada himself did not practice disciplic succession in the way that Sriman Bhagavat das has described. He initiated disciples by tape recording and accepted disciples that had never heard from him directly.

We are surprised that someone claiming to be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada directly can just overlook the examples shown by Srila Prabhupada and attempt to pass off some dogma as being the position of Srila Prabhupada. Sriman Bhagavat das appears to be confusing what he is hearing from Narayana Maharaja for what were the practices and precepts of Srila Prabhupada.

Kshamabuddhi das (ACBSP-1975)

theist · May 31, 2006

Yes, because of his status as a mahabhagavat and shaktyavesa avatara of Lord Nityananda. Even if a sincere high madhyama adhikari guru uses such a process then Nityananda Prabhu, who is the akhanda guru, may make up for any apparent lacking, yoga ksemam vahamy aham. I carry what they lack and preserve what they have (BG 9.22) This being said, one disciple of Srila Prabhupada told me that the tape malfunctioned so he actually received the gayatri mantras from the temple president who was unbenownst to him, having an affair with his wife. Given this kind of possibility try to receive the mantras directly by hook or by crook. I think in the final anaysis this is all dependent on ones sukriti.

So in the example you gave do you consider the mantra to have been transfered from Srila Prabhupada to his disciple or not? I do for the simple reason of the presence of Supersoul. He knows the intent and will of His devotee and no machine malfunction or temple president's indiscretion can come between that.

I am sure you realize that your guru is not his body. When he speaks mantra in your ear he is using the yantra of his manifest form to do so. IOW's a machine. How is that different from a tape recorder another machine?

Beggar · May 31, 2006

So in the example you gave do you consider the mantra to have been transfered from Srila Prabhupada to his disciple or not? I do for the simple reason of the presence of Supersoul. He knows the intent and will of His devotee and no machine malfunction or temple president's indiscretion can come between that.
I agree.

I am sure you realize that your guru is not his body. When he speaks mantra in your ear he is using the yantra of his manifest form to do so. IOW's a machine. How is that different from a tape recorder another machine?

From another angle of vision the guru's body is purely spiritual.

Kulapavana · May 31, 2006

The power behind the mantra is purely Krishna. Guru, as the agent of Krishna, distributes the mantra to qualified disciples and Krishna backs it up with His shakti. Whether from a tape yantra or the yantra of vocal chords, the disciple gets the mantra backed by Krishna, who makes it effective for a sincere disciple.

nimbo pani · May 31, 2006

Whether from a tape yantra or the yantra of vocal chords, the disciple gets the mantra backed by Krishna

Being that there are a lot of devotees who believe hearing and reading to be exactly the same, despite evidence to the contrary from Bhagavata prabhu, then why not simply have the mantra written on a piece of paper and hand a photocopy to the initiate for him to read. Engage the photocopier (yukta vairagya.) I would rather receive the mantra in that method rather than hear it from the mouth of a rascal TP who was engaging in illicit sex with my wife.

Kinko's ki jaya!

theist · May 31, 2006

Being that there are a lot of devotees who believe hearing and reading to be exactly the same, despite evidence to the contrary from Bhagavata prabhu, then why not simply have the mantra written on a piece of paper and hand a photocopy to the initiate for him to read. Engage the photocopier (yukta vairagya.) I would rather receive the mantra in that method rather than hear it from the mouth of a rascal TP who was engaging in illicit sex with my wife.

Kinko's ki jaya!

You missed the whole point of my post. Oh well. By just reading mantra from some yoga book or kinko copy you miss the essential ingredient which is the intent and will of the guru to release the power of the mantra into you life. That empowerment is guided by Supersoul. It may be too simple for you. Sorry.

nimbo pani · May 31, 2006

You missed the whole point of my post [...] It may be too simple for you. Sorry.

So you fancy yourself as a mindreader now. I fully understand exactly where you are coming from, whether you believe it or not. After reading your posts for several years, they have become all too repetitive and oh so predictable.

Maybe instead of accusing me of being too simple to understand, why not examine your own heart (with the help of Supersoul) and try to determine if perhaps there is still something yet for you to learn. You come across as if you have a monopoly on the truth, on nearly every issue, and then you are condescending with those who disagree.

You know, it is quite possible that we could have explored this topic further, but if you are going to pass judgement and come across as a know-it-all, then obviously this isn't conducive for further discussion. BTW, I was replying more to Kulapavana prabhu's post than I was to yours. Had you been just a little patient, I would probably have addressed your post directly.

theist · May 31, 2006

So you fancy yourself as a mindreader now. I fully understand exactly where you are coming from, whether you believe it or not. After reading your posts for several years, they have become all too repetitive and oh so predictable.

SishirSaha · May 31, 2006

A Guest put this on another thread. If the Guest who has this tape of His Holiness Jayapataka Swami talking with Sridhara Swami can make it available I can translate the Bengali sections.

Damodara dasa

***********************************************

Guest

In a talk from 1979 between Jaya Pataka Swami and Srila Sridhar Maharaj...

It is half in English and half in bangla....

Jayapataka: (Starts explaining/asking his question in bengali...from what I can make out by my very limited knowlege of Bengali he says: "In the months of june and July in 1977 Srila Prabhupada was in Vrndavan....in gaura Purnima of that year he had stopped giving diksha because he was no longer physically well enogh to do so...then in june july he appointed some ritviks..around this time [i don't know whether it was before or after the appointment of the ritviks] 5 or 8 boys from Bihar came and wanted diksha from him.

Jayapataka: (now speaking english) Prabhupada said to them "You are all my disciples...you are all very good boys....you are all my disciples" but he never gave them any mala or any new name.Then they all went back to their village and gave themselves mala and name.

Srila Guru Maharaja: (In english) Then he has accepted them, he gave admittion, now shiksha guru is necessary. When has accepted them direct, face to face, then they're direct disciple, now siksha guru is necessary to guide them in the details. Acceptance..acceptance is of more value (more value than actual formal initiation..I think this is what is being implied by Guru Maharaja)

Jayapataka: Thats what I thought...that those boys who actually went to him amd Prabhupada said "You are my sisya"..that that acceptance means that they are directly his disciple.(Jayapataka starts speaking in begali again here, I think he says - ...but those who did not go there to him those that remained in there village they are not in the same position)

Srila Guru Maharaja: (In bengali) Yes those that heard directly from Swami Maharaja's mouth, they were directly accepted by him (as his disciples) they got his recognition..but those that did not go to him and hear from him, they will have to go through the proper channel.

The talk goes on in bengali ...but then there is more english from Srila Guru Maharaja:

"Mantra is formal encouched expression but what is embodied there (in the mantra) that is to be opened (revealed) and that tattva jnana is not an easy thing or non important factor...REAL DIKSHA IS THERE in tattva jnana (in the revealing of what is there couched in the mantra..i.e. siksa is the important thing) Then Guru Maharaja (again in Bengali) talks about the jati Gosai giving "bifala mantras" ("fruitless mantras" or as in Sri Guru and his Grace "Dead mantras")..also I think he says how these Jati Gosai will give mantras but don't themselves know what is in that mantra (i.e can't give siksa sufficiently to make diksa fruitful...again pointing to the idea that siksha is the most important thing)

Jayapataka: Yes..that clears up the point.

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