Questions on poll results- Iskcon initiations

[theist 1]

The poll thus far shows that the majority of respondants see the Iskcon system as the right one but that the gurus must be liberated. This means the Iskcon model has the GBC with the final say in who is recognized as a liberated guru and who isn't.

 

So wouldn't that mean that the GBC must also be liberated to tell who is a liberated guru?

 

So you devotees that voted that way on the poll must believe the GBC are already on the liberated platform. Do you really have that realization and faith? If so ..why?

 

These are just some pertinent questions I have and not meant as an interrogation, so let's keep it friendly.

[vijay 0]

Well I voted for the iskcon liberated guru, for me that choice means that the guru that i get initited by is approved to work in iskcon and is liberated. That doesnt mean that all gurus in iskcon are liberated. The GBC cant know who is liberated or not, all they can do is make sure the person who wants to give diksha meet the critieria of working in iskocn else they have to iniitate outside of iskcon. The other choice iskcon and not liberated to me meant that the person who one choses to get linitiated by is in iskcon but doesnt have to be liberated (ie can be a madhayama).

 

Maybe we need definition of each category.

[vijay 0]

Heres the clarification that JND prabhu gave.

 

ISKCON System, Gurus must be liberated souls

ISKCON System, Gurus do not need to be liberated souls

 

 

First case is if you agree with current ISKCON system, but believe one must be initiated by a liberated soul. Second case if you believe ISKCON system, but feel a conditioned soul can also act as guru.

 

Definition of liberated soul is in regards to Prabhupada's regular usage, mahabhagavata, etc.

 

Another point to consider is if you agree with the last option ("Initiation not essential, following Prabhupada is primary"), then what system did Prabhupada want followed after his departure? Because many people will agree with this, but still some system must have been intended by Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

Given that we know that the vast majority are not liberated souls (history and actions have proven this) then doesn't that mean most devotees are being lead down a wrong path by those that voted they must be initiated by liberated souls.

 

To give an example, one ex-guru used to send his socks to his disciples to worship in his abscense. Said guru fell down a few years ago. Now imagine you were a young devotee, say 20 years old, and you decided after reading Srila Prabhupada's book, and associating through the network of temple communities he built, that you wanted to join full time. Perhaps you take initiation from the local guru you have access to. You spend the next 10 or 15 years worshiping this guru, only to see him fall down.

 

The conclusion you'd have to come to is "Did I just waste 15 years of my life? I gave up getting an education, I gave up getting a job, saving money for my retirement, I gave up getting married and having children, to worship someone's smelly socks? I'm 35 now where do I turn?" You want to bet you'd be burned out on the whole system?

 

So you end up with an unstable system where conditioned souls are worshipped as God, where you give up everything and get nothing. On the other hand, if they weren't worshipped, but were just seen as "good guys who are more advanced than I am" then you have a more stable system. You don't have to worship his socks. You can be part of the community, participate to the extent that you can, and after 15 years, if the guy falls down you can be the one who goes over and picks him up.

 

Literally thousands of people have been burned out on these gurus who pose as liberated and then fall down. This isn't a hypothetical situation. The GBC was going to ban Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj because he said the Jiva never falls down from Vaikuntha. Being a liberated soul he could choose the time to leave his body at will. He left on the day the GBC was to vote, so that he wouldn't have to offend his guru by leaving his institution and wouldn't have to be banned thus hurting his disciples and allowing the GBC to create greater offenses. Srila Gour Govinda was banned from going to the former USSR states by that local guru, who eventually fell down. And we saw the results. Yet the GBC sees no problem with gurus writing books on UFOs and Atlantis, sending smelly socks to be worshipped, making insane finger paint paintings published in the BTG, supporting deviations in marriage contrary to Srila Prabhupada's teachings, and yet they never got banned. It was the one liberated soul they tried to ban the rest were left to do as they wanted.

[Kulapavana 0]

I voted: "ISKCON System, Gurus do not need to be liberated souls"

 

because there is no good and practical way to verify whether someone is liberated or not. let the prospective disciples decide for themselves.

[Yegan 0]

 

So you devotees that voted that way on the poll must believe the GBC are already on the liberated platform. Do you really have that realization and faith? If so ..why?

I havent voted but I just want to point out something in general.

How can we be sure that our "realisation" and our "faith" are initially right when first off we are not liberated soul?

Can we say that ISKCON(Gaudiya Vaishnava line) is the way and others branches like saivism, swaminarayan or Sri vaisnava line are not?

In saivism for example, they also have their own gurus who they believed to be liberated as well.

The question then arise, what is the exact definition of "liberated soul" and how can a non liberated soul identify these liberated souls( if ever possible to do so)?

[vijay 0]

 

Given that we know that the vast majority are not liberated souls (history and actions have proven this) then doesn't that mean most devotees are being lead down a wrong path by those that voted they must be initiated by liberated souls.

 

The problem is that people assume that 99% are liberated. The point is you worship elevated vaishnava's that can help you and fits the criteria described in the scriptures to discriminate what is what. The fact is that we will not know who is liberated and who is not until we are at a high stage, until then we take guidance from whoever fits the bill according to sastra to guide us towards krishna, if he bloops then, you find someone else that can help you get to krishna, that may be another elevated vaishnava(s) or books or both depending on the needs of the disciples, the spitual masters (siksa/diksa gurus) are a transparent means to get to krishna. The onus to find someone to guide you is the responsibility of the disciple (through sincerity krishna awards guru). If the guru falls its the disciples full responsibility ultimately, we dont live in a nanny welfare state where we should have guru on a plate and if he's not correct demand compensation from someone.

If someone believes someone is pure and he is not then its not the pretenders problem its the guy that fell for it. If we are foolish enough to take purity cheaply and arrogant enough to think we can spot purity then maya awards us accordingly.

 

Krishna guides the sincere and even when things fall apart the humble sincere soul continues in his quest undisturbed. A bonifide disciple is awarded a bonifide guru (that guru(s) can take many forms, for some reason people assume the guru has to be a diksa guru which is the first major problem). Krishna does not cheat us.

 

How does anyone know for definate that prabhupada is pure, or Gaur govinda maharaj is pure? No one on the conditioned platform can know unless krishna reveals it to us through the heart. He only reveals to sincere humble souls. If we dont know who is pure the best we can do is follow those more advanced than us worshipping the advanced vaishnavas and submissively humbley taking guidance as well as keeping our intelligence tuned in to scripture to spot any discrepencies in a humble way. Fools will always continue to be cheated no point blaming the cheaters for that.

 

Its obvious there are many different types of gurus in iskcon, i cant say who is liberated or not but i can see that some clearly are not. If I choose to listen to foolish guys that say they are all liberated and not listen to what prabhupada and scriptures say then im the fool.

 

You'll always have people pretending to be higher than they are, prabhupada already warns us about this, the responsibiltiy is always the disciples, ive never read prabhuapda say anywhere that our advancement in krishna conciousness and our spiritual master is someone elses responsibility or the instituations responsibility. If you feel no one in iskcon is capable of guiding you then there are plenty of other vaishnavas outside the institution and even outside the sampradaya. The responsibility is ours to get to krishna no one elses, where ever you end up in your next life you cant say o it was so and so's fault i got the wrong guru.

 

There are plenty of differnt types of gurus for the mentalitys of differnt types of disciples, some going down the garden path some getting some elevation and some getting to krishna. And its true most people are just getting some form of elevation at best, firstly as they may have taken on guidance which is not the best, and secondly even if they have taken on the best guidance they are not the highest level of disciple, they have not really surendered to the guru, how many of prabhupadas disciples have taken his words to heart? What disciple really see the words of guru as their life and soul? Even the words of Krishna in the gita how many even take that seriously?

 

Sure there are cheaters and many things wrong with so many devotees in and outside of iskcon (its the nature of the material world and condioned souls) we should try and rectify these things to our capability and we can only do that to the level we are advanced ourselves, other wise its just noise of empty botlles hitting each other. Gaur govinda maharaj left out of disgust but he never went around blaming others he just tried his best by his words and example to rectify things. He was humble and tolerant knowing that there are defects in everyone. Because of his example we are still learning from him today if all he did was take about the defects of others who would of listened, but because of his example his words still have value today.

[Guest guest]

the vast majority of Iskcon members are being cheated. The solution? Worship God, don't worship man.

 

By the way, while most think Iskcon system with liberated gurus is the way, this is only like 43%, so the other 57% believe a different system.

[Guest guest]

could attract followers on their own? Hardly any. And the proof is to see how these gurus do when they leave Iskcon.

 

The fact is they are using Srila Prabhupada's structure and institution to draw people in to then worship them. On their own they couldn't get even 1 or 2 followers. But with the books, the temples, the entire support structure built in place, they can skim a few here and there and be "big gurus". Let them go on their own and see if they have the shakti to actually attract people to Krsna Consciousness. 99% will flounder.

[Guest guest]

 

Let them go on their own and see if they have the shakti to actually attract people to Krsna Consciousness. 99% will flounder.

 

Perhaps. Then we should simply focus on the 1%, rather than look for the 99%.

 

The Brahmara vs Maksika example that Srila Prabhupada gave. Let's assume the attitude of the Brahmara (honey bee) that looks for honey and not the maksika(fly) looking for rotten things.

 

You seem bent on focussing only on the 99% (assuming your 'opinion' of 99% being unqualified is correct, which it isn't). More a fault finding mentality than anything else.

[theist 1]

 

To give an example, one ex-guru used to send his socks to his disciples to worship in his abscense. Said guru fell down a few years ago. Now imagine you were a young devotee, say 20 years old, and you decided after reading Srila Prabhupada's book, and associating through the network of temple communities he built, that you wanted to join full time. Perhaps you take initiation from the local guru you have access to. You spend the next 10 or 15 years worshiping this guru, only to see him fall down.

 

The conclusion you'd have to come to is "Did I just waste 15 years of my life? I gave up getting an education, I gave up getting a job, saving money for my retirement, I gave up getting married and having children, to worship someone's smelly socks? I'm 35 now where do I turn?" You want to bet you'd be burned out on the whole system?

 

So you end up with an unstable system where conditioned souls are worshipped as God, where you give up everything and get nothing. On the other hand, if they weren't worshipped, but were just seen as "good guys who are more advanced than I am" then you have a more stable system. You don't have to worship his socks. You can be part of the community, participate to the extent that you can, and after 15 years, if the guy falls down you can be the one who goes over and picks him up.

 

Here it is. No need for anything formal. Those that are more inspirational as siksa gurus will naturally rise to the top and attract more sincere hearers. No need even to formally declare anyone as a "diksa" disciple of Srila Prabhupada even like the ritviks. That will be taken care of as people apply themselves to the serious following of his teachings.

 

And if and when someone does become liberated themselves and accept formal disciples no need to criticize as that is what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Rather they are working in or out of Iskcon is of no importance.

 

Let Iskcon handle how they give second intiation necessary for Deity worship in whatever manner the GBC sees fit. But their jurisdiction ends there. Their votes and resolutions have no barring on the transcendental system one way or the other.

[Guest guest]

I'm not saying 99% are bad people (though a number are). I'm saying that 99% are just people. Like you or I. They aren't liberated souls. We have created an institution that worships men. Just regular, plain men. This is not like having a priest. If it was simply a matter of being respectful to a priest like figure that would be fine. But that is not the system we have. A priest can be a good man, but you don't worship him, you don't dedicate your life to him. If he falls down your life isn't harmed and you can pick him up and help him back.

 

Worship God, don't worship man.

 

But within those regular men, who have the same faults you and I have, they are creating great destruction in the actual lives of people. They create their destructive cults. When a person's life is harmed then we need to draw a line. And thousands of lives have been harmed. They dedicate EVERYTHING to a regular guy.

 

Its all fine and good to say "Look at the honey". But what of the THOUSANDS of destroyed lives? When someone gives EVERYTHING to an institution, and then burns out, gets destroyed, has no money, no family, no security (yes, material security is important), while regular men posing as God's worshipful representative, take their money, their time, their energy, and then fall down (truth be told they never fell, they were never up in the first place), then we have to question such a system.

 

We need to stop the destructive element of dedicating lives to regular men. That 1% doesn't make up for the THOUSANDS of lives harmed. We have institutionalized the worship of man.

 

Worship God, don't worship man.

[Guest guest]

Worship God, don't worship man may sound like a good formula but it isn't backed by God - in other words - that is not what the scriptures tell us.

 

Where will we find God? How shall we worship him?

 

Actually, in Gaudiya Vaishnavism we worship love of God and that love is found in the heart of the vaishnava. You cannot seperate God from his devotees.

 

What will the vaishnava tell you? He/she will tell you to chant Krsna nama and to follow in the footsteps of our Istha devata - Gaura Krsna. Will that be a waste of time? Will you later regret that you don't have material security and that the time you spent developing your heart could have been better spent accumulating a bank balance? When you leave the mortal frame what will you take with you?

[Guest guest]

Tell that to the thousands of devotees who were sincere and had their lives destroyed. I'll support people over philosophy any day. Those who say you must take initiation from a liberated guru, then those who didn't did in fact waste their time.

 

"When you leave the mortal frame what will you take with you?"

 

How about when you leave Gaudiya Vaisnavism what will you take with you? Answer: Nothing. I guarantee you there are thousands of devotees who wish they had some material security now that they are old and barely able to get by, while they are shunned by devotees for having "fallen down" and their man-God gurus are living comfortably.

 

The arrogance of devotees to say that when a guru falls down it was the devotee's fault for not being sincere enough. Absolute garbage. There were plenty of sincere devotees who gave decades of their lives and they are now told "Sorry, it was all fake. Your sincerity was fake so you got a fake guru. You've wasted your time and got nothing from it because unless you have a liberated guru you've just wasted your time."

 

Stay away from all "man-Gods". Worship God not man.

[theist 1]

 

I'm not saying 99% are bad people (though a number are). I'm saying that 99% are just people. Like you or I. They aren't liberated souls. We have created an institution that worships men. Just regular, plain men. This is not like having a priest. If it was simply a matter of being respectful to a priest like figure that would be fine. But that is not the system we have. A priest can be a good man, but you don't worship him, you don't dedicate your life to him. If he falls down your life isn't harmed and you can pick him up and help him back.

 

Worship God, don't worship man.

 

But within those regular men, who have the same faults you and I have, they are creating great destruction in the actual lives of people. They create their destructive cults. When a person's life is harmed then we need to draw a line. And thousands of lives have been harmed. They dedicate EVERYTHING to a regular guy.

 

 

 

Guest,

 

I am in agreement with what I hear you saying and I am also in agreement with what I believe Audarya-lila is saying. So let me make sure I understand you and please correct me if I am not.

 

You are addressing what you say is the 99% of those gurus who are not liberated but nonetheless people are told they must worship them as good as God. You are not speaking of the 1% who are liberated Vaisnavas. Correct?

 

In your quote, "Worship God, don't worship man." you are simply saying that unless someone is IN FACT one with Krsna he should not be worshiped as though he were. Respected? Yes. Honored? Yes. But not worshipped as good as God. Correct?

 

Now to the 1%. I do not consider a liberated Vaisnava to be in classification as "man." Do you? At that level he is not seperate from Krsna(in the Vaisnava sense of oneness). So by worshiping such a person in that light we would not be worshipping man but we would be worshiping God, The Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead.

 

Are we trackin' on this?

[gHari 0]

It is Krsna's mercy. Then perhaps this is the place to start.

[Guest guest]

Yes Theist we are in agreement. I want to add two more things. First, I despise the idea that devotees who have dedicated their lives for decades and literally gave EVERYTHING they had just weren't sincere enough when their guru falls down. No one know's their hearts yet they put the blame on them for the failings of an unqualified person. Thats Vaisnava love for you. Second, the other thing that really grates on me is the idea that since one's guru fell down that one starts from ground zero, that those two decades of service, cleaning temple floors, worshiping the deities, distributing books, bringing others to Krsna Consciousness, cutting up vegetables in the kitchen, all done with NO PAY and no material security, that these individuals not only weren't sincere (any devotee who says this should be kicked for his arrogance) but also got no spiritual benefit because their guru fell down. Again, Vaisnava love for you.

[SishirSaha 0]

If someone is prepared to accept someone as their Guru when they know he is not liberated or a pure Vaisnava, then IT IS their own decision that causes them to get into this sort of difficulty.

 

A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master. NOI - Purport to verse 5

[theist 1]

The disciples were blamed?!?! That is mind-blowing. But I know that sincere service never goes in vain. Krsna takes note of everything. He also arranges the connection between the cheater and the cheated. That can't be denied even though we may not know the details. But pity the pretender to the seat of Vyasadeva who cheats others into believing he is God's representative. From my perspective I can't see equal fault here. Just like a con man who preys on the innocent in some fashion (exactly like that) the innocent may have some culpablity but not to match the con man's. The innocent learns a hard lesson in life but the con man goes to prision.

 

And think about it. From day one when someone first goes to an Iskcon temple they here "you must have a guru." Once they move in the real pressure is on. "You must accept a guru and he must be from Iskcon." Sheesh...That is hard to go against since you enter basically with no prior knowledge. Yeah the disciples of these guys need a lot of support and encouragement.

[vijay 0]

 

From my perspective I can't see equal fault here. Just like a con man who preys on the innocent in some fashion (exactly like that) the innocent may have some culpablity but not to match the con man's. The innocent learns a hard lesson in life but the con man goes to prision.

 

And think about it. From day one when someone first goes to an Iskcon temple they here "you must have a guru." Once they move in the real pressure is on. "You must accept a guru and he must be from Iskcon." Sheesh...That is hard to go against since you enter basically with no prior knowledge. Yeah the disciples of these guys need a lot of support and encouragement.

 

Without sounding uncompassionate, its equal fault. The problem is most of us dont believe the law of karma, we love to blame others rather than learn the lessons. We get what we give out EXACTLY. Those that dont humbly learn the lessons will continue to protest at the so-called injustice life after life. Karma is a rectification facility to make us humble and sincere. If we arent humble and sincere we will blindly listen to so many people, go with the flow, surrender in an escaping sort of way with the wrong mood, then get smashed, we either learn from that smashing or continue to cry. There is no 2 ways about it. Most of us need to be smashed in many ways as we are too stupid/conditioned to learn in the simple way. Simple for the simple complicated for the complicated. As theist prabhu says in devotional service krishna notes our mood and services, there is no loss in this regard whether guru's or other vaishnavas notice or not.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

The problem is that people assume that 99% are liberated. If someone believes someone is pure and he is not then its not the pretenders problem its the guy that fell for it.

 

This is what they are fed from when they join ISKCON. It is an institutional system where new recruits are trained in the belief that the GBC approved gurus are as good as God. When you are new and you go to a temple, and you see all the temple devotees worshipping Guru X every single day with the same things that they worship God, then it is only natural to conclude that Guru X is a liberated person. In South India this is a fact of ISKCON. Everyone is taught that the GURU is as good as God. Another example, in Mumbai, everyone is systematically taught that Radhanath Maharaja is a pure devotee and as good as God. These are just facts of ISKCON today. There is absolutely no room or allowance for anyone to believe anything else while still being allowed to participate within ISKCON. The real fault lies in these people who know they are not liberated, but allow people to project them as liberated souls.

 

 

Krishna guides the sincere and even when things fall apart the humble sincere soul continues in his quest undisturbed.

 

And from what I have seen, the sincere souls are guided to reject these useless initiations by conditioned souls posing as liberated, and instead put prominence on following Prabhupada's teachings.

 

 

If you feel no one in iskcon is capable of guiding you then there are plenty of other vaishnavas outside the institution and even outside the sampradaya.

But the problem is many, many people feel there is someone in ISKCON capable of guiding them, and that person is Srila Prabhupada. But if they believe this, they are banned, beaten and thrown out. This is again historical fact.

[vijay 0]

 

This is what they are fed from when they join ISKCON. It is an institutional system where new recruits are trained in the belief that the GBC approved gurus are as good as God.

 

This is not true. The GBC make no claim on whether he is liberated or not. Only a check on track record to allow or not to allow initiatians in iskcon. The responsibility of finding a guru is the diciples. I've been on a number of guru disciple courses and this is made clear. This claim of all of them are liberated is made by fanatical neophytes

 

 

When you are new and you go to a temple, and you see all the temple devotees worshipping Guru X every single day with the same things that they worship God, then it is only natural to conclude that Guru X is a liberated person. In South India this is a fact of ISKCON. Everyone is taught that the GURU is as good as God. Another example, in Mumbai, everyone is systematically taught that Radhanath Maharaja is a pure devotee and as good as God. These are just facts of ISKCON today.

If devotees come to a situation where a guru is seen as liberated, then its that person who has to decide who is liberated or not, if he accepts blindly thats his problem, he has prabhupadas books he has sastra. Read it. When prabhupada was around everyone was systematically told prabhupada is liberated accept him as guru. Howver prabhupada could have been bogus, would you blame the society? The personal responsibility stands. Same thing with sai baba followers, cheaters get cheated. You can go on blaiming your sitation etc until your blue in the face but our sitaution is formed by our desires, whether favorable as in the case of everyone thinking prabhupada is pure, or unvaorable when everyone things sai is god.

 

 

There is absolutely no room or allowance for anyone to believe anything else while still being allowed to participate within ISKCON. The real fault lies in these people who know they are not liberated, but allow people to project them as liberated souls.

 

Again there maybe cheaters in the society or thoses who do not know what the meaning of a liberated soul is. Are you on the level to know who is liberated? People have to learn to follow what prabhupada has said, not to be blind but at the same time not to be arrogant. You maybe a scholor but not humble enough to see a pure devotee, or you may not be so clever but humble enough to see purity. How can anyone else decide for us?

 

 

And from what I have seen, the sincere souls are guided to reject these useless initiations by conditioned souls posing as liberated, and instead put prominence on following Prabhupada's teachings.

 

 

If someone thinks there are no liberated souls nor anyone they can take guidance from then they have to do the best they can.

 

 

But the problem is many, many people feel there is someone in ISKCON capable of guiding them, and that person is Srila Prabhupada. But if they believe this, they are banned, beaten and thrown out. This is again historical fact.

 

 

Maybe a historical fact, but a bit of an exageration today. If someone believes in prabhupadas teachings and doesnt get initiated are you telling me they will get beaten and banned? From what i've seens it is those on a crusade to tell everyone how such and such gurus are bogus and not liberated, twisting to show how they are all after money and fame etc they are the ones that are banned. I personally know bramhacharis that have lived at temples for at a few years still not considering initiation.

[vijay 0]

 

But the problem is many, many people feel there is someone in ISKCON capable of guiding them, and that person is Srila Prabhupada. But if they believe this, they are banned, beaten and thrown out. This is again historical fact.

 

Just to add I even know a few families that believe that prabhupada is all we need, however who are not offensive to any other vaishnava, who do not claim to know who is liberated but just know prabhupada can help them, neither do they use or propgate the concoted black book temple president ritvik intitiation system to be called a diciple of prabhupada they are doing fine, working in iskcon nicely. Im sure there are a few places that are fanatical but i dont see that as the norm.

[Guest guest]

 

When you are new and you go to a temple, and you see all the temple devotees worshipping Guru X every single day with the same things that they worship God, then it is only natural to conclude that Guru X is a liberated person. In South India this is a fact of ISKCON. Everyone is taught that the GURU is as good as God.

 

And how long have you lived in South India to claim something like this? You do post some funny stuff!

 

 

Another example, in Mumbai, everyone is systematically taught that Radhanath Maharaja is a pure devotee and as good as God. These are just facts of ISKCON today. There is absolutely no room or allowance for anyone to believe anything else while still being allowed to participate within ISKCON. The real fault lies in these people who know they are not liberated, but allow people to project them as liberated souls.

 

Again, how long have you lived in Mumbai to make this claim? I have several friends that are disciples of Radhanatha Swami Maharaja and NOT ONE ever told me he was as good as god or anything to that effect. Strange.

 

As Vijay said in his response, the GBC don't make any claim whether one is liberated or not. It's the Shastra's verdict that by the mercy of Krsna, one attains Guru and by the mercy of Guru one attains Krsna. Unless Shastra is wrong, I have to believe that according to the sincerity of a person, Krishna directs to him an appropriate Guru.

[Guest guest]

Extract from the thread "Sabda-brahma will never descend through a tape. One must hear from a physically prese"

 

Devotee #3: Because guru is non-different from Krishna we understand that to be a guru is not an easy thing. So why is it said that someone maybe on the level of kanistha or madhyama and be guru?

 

Gour Govinda Swami: All are gurus. There is kanistha-guru, madhyama-guru, uttama-gurus. Divisions are there. What you deserve you get. Krishna knows what you deserve so He makes an appropriate arrangement for you.

 

 

This is what they are fed from when they join ISKCON. It is an institutional system where new recruits are trained in the belief that the GBC approved gurus are as good as God. When you are new and you go to a temple, and you see all the temple devotees worshipping Guru X every single day with the same things that they worship God, then it is only natural to conclude that Guru X is a liberated person. In South India this is a fact of ISKCON. Everyone is taught that the GURU is as good as God. Another example, in Mumbai, everyone is systematically taught that Radhanath Maharaja is a pure devotee and as good as God. These are just facts of ISKCON today. There is absolutely no room or allowance for anyone to believe anything else while still being allowed to participate within ISKCON. The real fault lies in these people who know they are not liberated, but allow people to project them as liberated souls.

 

 

 

And from what I have seen, the sincere souls are guided to reject these useless initiations by conditioned souls posing as liberated, and instead put prominence on following Prabhupada's teachings.

 

 

But the problem is many, many people feel there is someone in ISKCON capable of guiding them, and that person is Srila Prabhupada. But if they believe this, they are banned, beaten and thrown out. This is again historical fact.