Sunrise for panjika

[Guest guest]

Dear, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

 

In present moment I'm working on programming vaishnava's calendar

for Gaudiya Math.

 

Please tell me, what kind of sunrise using in vedic traditional

astrology system. True or apparent, with use refraction

or without it and etc.?

 

It's very important and I hope that you can help me in my service.

 

Your servant,

Janardan das

[Guest guest]

Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya

Dear Janardana das

Hare krishna. I follow varahamihira - tip of the suns disc is visible i.e.

first visibility this should take into account the semi diameter of the Sun

and the refraction etc of the atmosphere.

With best wishes

Sanjay Rath

http://sanjayrath.tripod.com <http://sanjayrath.tripod.com>

 

 

 

Janardan das [janardan_sjvc]

Friday, August 02, 2002 12:00 PM

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

[vedic astrology] Sunrise for panjika

 

 

Dear, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

 

In present moment I'm working on programming vaishnava's calendar

for Gaudiya Math.

 

Please tell me, what kind of sunrise using in vedic traditional

astrology system. True or apparent, with use refraction

or without it and etc.?

 

It's very important and I hope that you can help me in my service.

 

Your servant,

Janardan das

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Pranaam Sanjay,

 

This is what you taught me, but there are a few questions in my mind.

 

Refraction of the atmosphere is UNPREDICTABLE. It depends on the

temperature, air pressure etc random (kind of) variables. Moreover,

Sunrise may not be visible at all on a cloudy day.

 

I am not talking about sunrise for the purpose of rites etc. I am

talking about finding sunrise for the purpose of determining ghati

lagna, hora lagna etc. If we do not see Sun on a morning, is ghatika

lagna undefined? If it is defined, how? After all, our definition

involved the visibility of upper disk and it wasn't visible at all on

the day!

 

Taking visibility into consideratopn leaves these questions.

 

Your sishya,

Narasimha

 

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya

> Dear Janardana das

> Hare krishna. I follow varahamihira - tip of the suns disc is

visible i.e.

> first visibility this should take into account the semi diameter of

the Sun

> and the refraction etc of the atmosphere.

> With best wishes

> Sanjay Rath

> http://sanjayrath.tripod.com <http://sanjayrath.tripod.com>

>

>

> Janardan das [janardan_sjvc@u...]

> Friday, August 02, 2002 12:00 PM

> Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

> [vedic astrology] Sunrise for panjika

>

>

> Dear, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

>

> In present moment I'm working on programming vaishnava's calendar

> for Gaudiya Math.

>

> Please tell me, what kind of sunrise using in vedic traditional

> astrology system. True or apparent, with use refraction

> or without it and etc.?

>

> It's very important and I hope that you can help me in my service.

>

> Your servant,

> Janardan das

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-@e...

>

> ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

 

[Guest guest]

Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya

Dear Narasimha,

What is the impact of a change in air pressure or temperature? There are

standard fornula for calculating these and this has been used in most

ephemeris. If the impact of the changes in pressure and temperature will not

wary more than a few seconds or fraction thereof, will the approximation not

be fine for our purpose? When we are not sure about ayanamsa and this can

vary upto 7 minutes at least!!, then, I think till such time we have more

sophisticated mesuring instruments, we use the available info.

With best wishes

Sanjay Rath

http://sanjayrath.tripod.com <http://sanjayrath.tripod.com>

 

 

 

pvr108 [pvr]

Friday, August 02, 2002 7:32 PM

vedic astrology

[vedic astrology] Re: Sunrise for panjika

 

 

Pranaam Sanjay,

 

This is what you taught me, but there are a few questions in my mind.

 

Refraction of the atmosphere is UNPREDICTABLE. It depends on the

temperature, air pressure etc random (kind of) variables. Moreover,

Sunrise may not be visible at all on a cloudy day.

 

I am not talking about sunrise for the purpose of rites etc. I am

talking about finding sunrise for the purpose of determining ghati

lagna, hora lagna etc. If we do not see Sun on a morning, is ghatika

lagna undefined? If it is defined, how? After all, our definition

involved the visibility of upper disk and it wasn't visible at all on

the day!

 

Taking visibility into consideratopn leaves these questions.

 

Your sishya,

Narasimha

 

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya

> Dear Janardana das

> Hare krishna. I follow varahamihira - tip of the suns disc is

visible i.e.

> first visibility this should take into account the semi diameter of

the Sun

> and the refraction etc of the atmosphere.

> With best wishes

> Sanjay Rath

> http://sanjayrath.tripod.com <http://sanjayrath.tripod.com>

>

>

> Janardan das [janardan_sjvc@u...]

> Friday, August 02, 2002 12:00 PM

> Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

> [vedic astrology] Sunrise for panjika

>

>

> Dear, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

>

> In present moment I'm working on programming vaishnava's calendar

> for Gaudiya Math.

>

> Please tell me, what kind of sunrise using in vedic traditional

> astrology system. True or apparent, with use refraction

> or without it and etc.?

>

> It's very important and I hope that you can help me in my service.

>

> Your servant,

> Janardan das

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-@e...

>

> ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Pranaam Sanjay,

 

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya

> Dear Narasimha,

> What is the impact of a change in air pressure or temperature?

There are

> standard fornula for calculating these and this has been used in

most

 

There isn't any standard formula for calculating air pressure and

temperature. They can only be measured and not quite predicted

accurately.

 

Most ephemeris programs (including my own Jagannatha Hora) that take

the atmospheric refraction into consideration only take an average

value. This is an approximation.

 

> ephemeris. If the impact of the changes in pressure and temperature

will not

> wary more than a few seconds or fraction thereof, will the

approximation not

 

No, the difference is not just seconds. It can be a couple of arc-

minutes too.

 

> be fine for our purpose? When we are not sure about ayanamsa and

this can

 

Yes, the potential inaccuracy we have in ayanamsa is larger.

 

But, in the case of ayanamsa, there is an exact value. It is just a

matter of finding it. In the case of atmospheric refraction, it is

more or less a random variation. How can such a random thing affect

our charts and lives??

 

Moreover, refer to my point about sunrise not being visible on a day.

If Sun is not visible on a day due to clouds, when would you take the

sunrise?

 

You might say that you would still make the calculations as usual and

take the time of Sun's apparent rise as the time when we would've

seen Sun had clouds not been there. If you say "the time when Sun

would've been visible had clouds not been there", why can't you

say "the time when Sun would've been visible had the temperature been

10 degrees more or pressure been less". I don't see any difference

between the two considerations. Clouds, atmospheric pressure,

temperature are all part of the same random atmospheric behavior.

 

Sanjay, as I think about it, it seems more and more illogical to me

to find GL, HL from the sunrise measured based on visibility.

 

> vary upto 7 minutes at least!!, then, I think till such time we

have more

 

Now, where does this "7 minutes" figure come from?? Especially the

two exclamation marks you put here suggest that you have some point

to make, but chose to suppress it. Please reply to this point either

to the list or in private.

 

> sophisticated mesuring instruments, we use the available info.

> With best wishes

> Sanjay Rath

> http://sanjayrath.tripod.com <http://sanjayrath.tripod.com>

 

You should seriously reconsider this. Visibility is a poor criterion.

 

Your sishya,

Narasimha

[Guest guest]

Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya

Dear Narasimha,

most points are right. In fact some time back you will recall we discussed

Hora calculations and how I was emphasising about using time as a starting

point using the midday and going back 6 hours, as the sunrise would vary

considerably over latitudes. In fatc in the artic circle, we can be amiss by

many hours and the word HORA means hOUR, so here we are at the same prolem

again trying to define something that is avoiding definition. Sun rise means

visibility of the Sun , and if this is not visible in a day, then the

average between the previous and succeeding days is taken as the sunrise.

If dark clouds cover the face of the sun, then the rig veda explains how the

essence of the light pieerces thee clouds and gives rain, and that the light

is still reaching us even if it does not cause visibility. Perhaps the

reference is to certain frequencies beyond the visible range that are

reaching the earth. Secondly the non visibility is a local phenomena for a

day or so and not universal. The sun will rise in other places and this can

be taken for the same latitude. So, non visibility of the Sun simply means

that VEDIC POOJAS & FIRE SACRIFICES CANNOT BE DONE and some ceremonies have

to be deferred, yet the HL, GL etc will contine. Let us say that there is

some other artificial blockage like say a man in a lockup without any

opening for light..no windows etc and such a person is in total darkness,

yet sunrise did occur for the place even if he was unable to see it. In a

similar way just because the sun could not be physically seen doe to clouds,

it has risen for all Jyotish purposes and the day shall be counted as a full

day in the calendar, yet it will not e good enough for pooja etc.

 

With best wishes

Sanjay Rath

http://sanjayrath.tripod.com <http://sanjayrath.tripod.com>

 

 

 

pvr108 [pvr]

Sunday, August 04, 2002 7:42 AM

vedic astrology

[vedic astrology] Re: Sunrise for panjika

 

 

Pranaam Sanjay,

 

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya

> Dear Narasimha,

> What is the impact of a change in air pressure or temperature?

There are

> standard fornula for calculating these and this has been used in

most

 

There isn't any standard formula for calculating air pressure and

temperature. They can only be measured and not quite predicted

accurately.

 

Most ephemeris programs (including my own Jagannatha Hora) that take

the atmospheric refraction into consideration only take an average

value. This is an approximation.

 

> ephemeris. If the impact of the changes in pressure and temperature

will not

> wary more than a few seconds or fraction thereof, will the

approximation not

 

No, the difference is not just seconds. It can be a couple of arc-

minutes too.

 

> be fine for our purpose? When we are not sure about ayanamsa and

this can

 

Yes, the potential inaccuracy we have in ayanamsa is larger.

 

But, in the case of ayanamsa, there is an exact value. It is just a

matter of finding it. In the case of atmospheric refraction, it is

more or less a random variation. How can such a random thing affect

our charts and lives??

 

Moreover, refer to my point about sunrise not being visible on a day.

If Sun is not visible on a day due to clouds, when would you take the

sunrise?

 

You might say that you would still make the calculations as usual and

take the time of Sun's apparent rise as the time when we would've

seen Sun had clouds not been there. If you say "the time when Sun

would've been visible had clouds not been there", why can't you

say "the time when Sun would've been visible had the temperature been

10 degrees more or pressure been less". I don't see any difference

between the two considerations. Clouds, atmospheric pressure,

temperature are all part of the same random atmospheric behavior.

 

Sanjay, as I think about it, it seems more and more illogical to me

to find GL, HL from the sunrise measured based on visibility.

 

> vary upto 7 minutes at least!!, then, I think till such time we

have more

 

Now, where does this "7 minutes" figure come from?? Especially the

two exclamation marks you put here suggest that you have some point

to make, but chose to suppress it. Please reply to this point either

to the list or in private.

 

> sophisticated mesuring instruments, we use the available info.

> With best wishes

> Sanjay Rath

> http://sanjayrath.tripod.com <http://sanjayrath.tripod.com>

 

You should seriously reconsider this. Visibility is a poor criterion.

 

Your sishya,

Narasimha

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Pranaam Sanjay,

 

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya

> Dear Narasimha,

> most points are right. In fact some time back you will recall we

discussed

> Hora calculations and how I was emphasising about using time as a

starting

> point using the midday and going back 6 hours, as the sunrise would

vary

> considerably over latitudes. In fatc in the artic circle, we can be

amiss by

> many hours and the word HORA means hOUR, so here we are at the same

prolem

> again trying to define something that is avoiding definition. Sun

rise means

 

I get your point. So, what is the definition?

 

I meant to ask you this for a long time: At the north pole, sun rises

once every 6 months. How do we find hora lagna, ghatika lagna etc

there?

 

> visibility of the Sun , and if this is not visible in a day, then

the

> average between the previous and succeeding days is taken as the

sunrise.

> If dark clouds cover the face of the sun, then the rig veda

explains how the

> essence of the light pieerces thee clouds and gives rain, and that

the light

> is still reaching us even if it does not cause visibility. Perhaps

the

> reference is to certain frequencies beyond the visible range that

are

> reaching the earth. Secondly the non visibility is a local

phenomena for a

> day or so and not universal. The sun will rise in other places and

this can

> be taken for the same latitude.

 

Sunrise time varies with longitude AND latitude. In any case, what do

we do with sunrise time at place X if we want sunrise time at place

Y? When we insist on involving the refraction angle, how can we

simply find it for some other place.

 

See, my problem is not so much related to accuracy of calculations.

It has more to do with well-definedness (as opposed to ill-

definedness) of key astrological concepts like HL, GL etc.

 

> So, non visibility of the Sun simply means

> that VEDIC POOJAS & FIRE SACRIFICES CANNOT BE DONE and some

ceremonies have

> to be deferred, yet the HL, GL etc will contine.

 

That is exactly why I am wondering if the same sunrise definition can

be used for the two! Perhaps HL, GL etc are based on a different

sunrise that has nothing to do with visibility.

 

An important issue here is: How do planets influence us? Is their

influence due to their light? If not and if their influence is due to

something else, then visibility should not matter in astrological

calculations.

 

> Let us say that there is

> some other artificial blockage like say a man in a lockup without

any

> opening for light..no windows etc and such a person is in total

darkness,

> yet sunrise did occur for the place even if he was unable to see

it. In a

> similar way just because the sun could not be physically seen doe

to clouds,

> it has risen for all Jyotish purposes and the day shall be counted

as a full

> day in the calendar, yet it will not e good enough for pooja etc.

>

> With best wishes

> Sanjay Rath

> http://sanjayrath.tripod.com <http://sanjayrath.tripod.com>

 

Your sishya,

Narasimha

[Guest guest]

dear gurus

I feel the question of Sunrise, is not so much of visibility, as to yhe choice

between the Tip of the Sun, and the center of the sun. Some take the view that

Sunrise should be taken as the time, when Sun's centre is at the horizon,

others the time when Sun's top just appears at the the horizon. Most Panchangs

take the view that sunrise is at the time when Sun's disc is just visible on

the horizon, It may or may not be seen, but can be calculted. Actual sighting

is not important. It is only in ISLAM that actual sighting of the Moon is

important for their festivals.

 

--- pvr108 <pvr wrote:

> Pranaam Sanjay,

>

> > Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya

> > Dear Narasimha,

> > most points are right. In fact some time back you will recall we

> discussed

> > Hora calculations and how I was emphasising about using time as a

> starting

> > point using the midday and going back 6 hours, as the sunrise would

> vary

> > considerably over latitudes. In fatc in the artic circle, we can be

> amiss by

> > many hours and the word HORA means hOUR, so here we are at the same

> prolem

> > again trying to define something that is avoiding definition. Sun

> rise means

>

> I get your point. So, what is the definition?

>

> I meant to ask you this for a long time: At the north pole, sun rises

> once every 6 months. How do we find hora lagna, ghatika lagna etc

> there?

>

> > visibility of the Sun , and if this is not visible in a day, then

> the

> > average between the previous and succeeding days is taken as the

> sunrise.

> > If dark clouds cover the face of the sun, then the rig veda

> explains how the

> > essence of the light pieerces thee clouds and gives rain, and that

> the light

> > is still reaching us even if it does not cause visibility. Perhaps

> the

> > reference is to certain frequencies beyond the visible range that

> are

> > reaching the earth. Secondly the non visibility is a local

> phenomena for a

> > day or so and not universal. The sun will rise in other places and

> this can

> > be taken for the same latitude.

>

> Sunrise time varies with longitude AND latitude. In any case, what do

> we do with sunrise time at place X if we want sunrise time at place

> Y? When we insist on involving the refraction angle, how can we

> simply find it for some other place.

>

> See, my problem is not so much related to accuracy of calculations.

> It has more to do with well-definedness (as opposed to ill-

> definedness) of key astrological concepts like HL, GL etc.

>

> > So, non visibility of the Sun simply means

> > that VEDIC POOJAS & FIRE SACRIFICES CANNOT BE DONE and some

> ceremonies have

> > to be deferred, yet the HL, GL etc will contine.

>

> That is exactly why I am wondering if the same sunrise definition can

> be used for the two! Perhaps HL, GL etc are based on a different

> sunrise that has nothing to do with visibility.

>

> An important issue here is: How do planets influence us? Is their

> influence due to their light? If not and if their influence is due to

> something else, then visibility should not matter in astrological

> calculations.

>

> > Let us say that there is

> > some other artificial blockage like say a man in a lockup without

> any

> > opening for light..no windows etc and such a person is in total

> darkness,

> > yet sunrise did occur for the place even if he was unable to see

> it. In a

> > similar way just because the sun could not be physically seen doe

> to clouds,

> > it has risen for all Jyotish purposes and the day shall be counted

> as a full

> > day in the calendar, yet it will not e good enough for pooja etc.

> >

> > With best wishes

> > Sanjay Rath

> > http://sanjayrath.tripod.com <http://sanjayrath.tripod.com>

>

> Your sishya,

> Narasimha

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

There are actually 3 views: (1) when Sun's center is exactly on the

eastern horizon, (2) when Sun's tip is exactly on the eastern

horizon, (3) when Sun's tip is visible on the eastern horizon.

 

Obviously (2) comes before (1). And, due to the atmospheric

refraction of sunrays, (3) comes a few minutes before (2). Those who

accept (3), like Pt. Sanjay Rath, are taking the atmospheric

conditions into account. These are not quite predictable. Thus,

strictly speaking, (3) is only measurable and not predictable.

 

If Sun is not visible due to clouds, you may say "ok, I'll take the

time when Sun would've been visible had clouds not been there". But,

if clouds had not been there, the refraction angle would've changed a

bit too.

 

Thus, definition (3) is running into problems that make it ill-

defined. I wonder if maharshis wanted us to find HL, GL etc from such

an ill-defined construct.

 

However, it is possible that there is something reaching us from Sun,

which is not obstructed by clouds. It need not only be ultraviolet or

infrared (unseeable) frequencies as Sanjay ji hinted at. It may be

some other form of energy that we don't yet understand. The reaching

of Sun's rays is probably to be defined in terms of that energy field

(instead of just the light that we know). In that case, we don't know

what refraction model applies to it. In case of ultraviolet and

infrared frequencies also, I don't know if the refraction model

changes. In any cases, such changed have to be made to the definition

to make it well-defined.

 

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

 

> dear gurus

> I feel the question of Sunrise, is not so much of visibility, as to

yhe choice

> between the Tip of the Sun, and the center of the sun. Some take

the view that

> Sunrise should be taken as the time, when Sun's centre is at the

horizon,

> others the time when Sun's top just appears at the the horizon.

Most Panchangs

> take the view that sunrise is at the time when Sun's disc is just

visible on

> the horizon, It may or may not be seen, but can be calculted.

Actual sighting

> is not important. It is only in ISLAM that actual sighting of the

Moon is

> important for their festivals.

>

> --- pvr108 <pvr@c...> wrote:

> > Pranaam Sanjay,

> >

> > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya

> > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > most points are right. In fact some time back you will recall

we

> > discussed

> > > Hora calculations and how I was emphasising about using time as

a

> > starting

> > > point using the midday and going back 6 hours, as the sunrise

would

> > vary

> > > considerably over latitudes. In fatc in the artic circle, we

can be

> > amiss by

> > > many hours and the word HORA means hOUR, so here we are at the

same

> > prolem

> > > again trying to define something that is avoiding definition.

Sun

> > rise means

> >

> > I get your point. So, what is the definition?

> >

> > I meant to ask you this for a long time: At the north pole, sun

rises

> > once every 6 months. How do we find hora lagna, ghatika lagna etc

> > there?

> >

> > > visibility of the Sun , and if this is not visible in a day,

then

> > the

> > > average between the previous and succeeding days is taken as

the

> > sunrise.

> > > If dark clouds cover the face of the sun, then the rig veda

> > explains how the

> > > essence of the light pieerces thee clouds and gives rain, and

that

> > the light

> > > is still reaching us even if it does not cause visibility.

Perhaps

> > the

> > > reference is to certain frequencies beyond the visible range

that

> > are

> > > reaching the earth. Secondly the non visibility is a local

> > phenomena for a

> > > day or so and not universal. The sun will rise in other places

and

> > this can

> > > be taken for the same latitude.

> >

> > Sunrise time varies with longitude AND latitude. In any case,

what do

> > we do with sunrise time at place X if we want sunrise time at

place

> > Y? When we insist on involving the refraction angle, how can we

> > simply find it for some other place.

> >

> > See, my problem is not so much related to accuracy of

calculations.

> > It has more to do with well-definedness (as opposed to ill-

> > definedness) of key astrological concepts like HL, GL etc.

> >

> > > So, non visibility of the Sun simply means

> > > that VEDIC POOJAS & FIRE SACRIFICES CANNOT BE DONE and some

> > ceremonies have

> > > to be deferred, yet the HL, GL etc will contine.

> >

> > That is exactly why I am wondering if the same sunrise definition

can

> > be used for the two! Perhaps HL, GL etc are based on a different

> > sunrise that has nothing to do with visibility.

> >

> > An important issue here is: How do planets influence us? Is their

> > influence due to their light? If not and if their influence is

due to

> > something else, then visibility should not matter in astrological

> > calculations.

> >

> > > Let us say that there is

> > > some other artificial blockage like say a man in a lockup

without

> > any

> > > opening for light..no windows etc and such a person is in total

> > darkness,

> > > yet sunrise did occur for the place even if he was unable to

see

> > it. In a

> > > similar way just because the sun could not be physically seen

doe

> > to clouds,

> > > it has risen for all Jyotish purposes and the day shall be

counted

> > as a full

> > > day in the calendar, yet it will not e good enough for pooja

etc.

> > >

> > > With best wishes

> > > Sanjay Rath

> > > http://sanjayrath.tripod.com <http://sanjayrath.tripod.com>

> >

> > Your sishya,

> > Narasimha