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Plants and Jivas

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Plants have "souls" too we learn. So, with plants like redwood trees who live for hundreds of years, does that mean the same soul is associated with that plant for all those years? wouldn't killing a plant be releasing the soul to progress to higher births?

 

The other plant thread brought up these questions in my mind. To kill a tree senselessly seems like such a shame, and I always am saddened to see forest fires and the destruction of beautiful forests: yet considering that plants have souls associated with them, it would seem like a release from a long incarnation for big trees to be cut down.

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Dear Guest,

I dont think that killing a living thing help in the progression to a higher birth. Im not too sure about this point, but I think the soul has to retake birth in the same species again. Moreover, in previous yuga, we did have animal sacrifices and during which, the soul would indeed get into a higher level if not liberated.However such sacrifices were conducted by highly learned brahmins (and the proper way of conducting these sacrifices in this kali age is no longer possible, hence sacrifices are prohibited). So, yes there is higher birth, but such process of releasing the soul has to be conducted by authorised brahmins with specific mantras.

In the same line, I could argue that why not mass extermination of animals and allow them to take higher birth? Or may be kill our mum,dad and thus give them the opportunity to take an even "higher" birth and later on let us commit suicide for the sake of higher birth. I dont think these sound logic.

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Souls are destined to enjoy and suffer for a specified term in a particular species. By cutting the tree, you just force it to take birth again as the same tree to finish off the remaining years. With humans you get the added factor of becoming a ghost and waiting for their next body to develop.

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Dear Yegan,

Yes you made good points. I thought of how someone could make that same argument with animals. And saw the error in the argument.

 

Plants are a little different than animals though, in that we must kill plants to eat and survive. And plants also must be killed sometimes for maitenance reasons, such as unsightly weeds and such in our yard. Also, of course to get paper from trees and wood supplies we must kill trees. So killing plants can't be 100% avoided.

 

I was just thinking how long souls with large trees must be incarnate; far longer than any man or animal. Assuming there is only one soul associated with each tree for its entire lifetime - it would seem like quite a relief to be finally released from the incarnation.

 

Didn't Krsna release a couple souls from trees who were being punished with their incarnation in that form?

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Prabhupada was very unhappy when devotees had cut down a tree on one of his temple lands. He said the tree had been there for hundreds of years, and in a matter of seconds foolish people had cut it down.

 

To make up for our many sins towards plants, worship tulasi.

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Dear Yegan,

Yes you made good points. I thought of how someone could make that same argument with animals. And saw the error in the argument.

 

Plants are a little different than animals though, in that we must kill plants to eat and survive. And plants also must be killed sometimes for maitenance reasons, such as unsightly weeds and such in our yard. Also, of course to get paper from trees and wood supplies we must kill trees. So killing plants can't be 100% avoided.

 

I was just thinking how long souls with large trees must be incarnate; far longer than any man or animal. Assuming there is only one soul associated with each tree for its entire lifetime - it would seem like quite a relief to be finally released from the incarnation.

 

Didn't Krsna release a couple souls from trees who were being punished with their incarnation in that form?

 

Dear guest,

 

Im currently in the dilema of whether uprooting the weeds in my backyard . I eventually must do it. As such I would have to account later on for the bad karma I would be doing in killing the plants. I would cause suffering and hence break the law of ahimsa.

I think there is no difference between plants and animals except for the level of conciousness. As jndas has said cutting the trees WOULD NOT liberate them but instead force them back into the plant species again. By cutting down trees, we are violating the law of ahimsa and as such not only we are forcing the soul back into plant species but also accumulating bad karma due to suffering caused on the trees.

Souls get into plant species because of their karma. And they must live in that form of life for certain amount of time. If we cut them down, then these souls still have to take the plant form again to finish off the remaining karma.

The scriptures do say that killing plants is sinful. In Gita, Krsna mentioned that vegetarian food (plants) is sinful unless offered to him first.

I do not think that if killing plants were an act of liberation krishna would have said such activities are sinful.

I also have never heard that killing of plants is an act of liberation as far as scriptures are concerned (Such verses might exist, but never heard of them)

As for Krsna liberating couple of souls from trees, yes agree. He is GOD. We are not.

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Dear guest,

The scriptures do say that killing plants is sinful. In Gita, Krsna mentioned that vegetarian food (plants) is sinful unless offered to him first.

 

 

How can vegetarian food be sinful, when we would die without eating? isn't it a sin to starve to death?

 

I believe I know what verse you are referencing, but most people around the world have never read that verse. Most people in America have never read the Bhagavad Gita and know next to nothing about Krishna. Some of these same people who have never read the Bhagavad Gita and have never heard about Krishna may even be vegetarian. So are these non-Vaisnava vegetarians committing sin by eating vegetarian? Even though they are doing their best to be compassionate to animal life?

 

I did not know it was a sin to cut weeds. No one has ever told me this before. Where I live we have a homeowners association, and if we have weeds growing in our frontyard, we will be fined or worse. How am I accruing bad karma by plucking the weeds in my front yard? My neighbors do not want to live nextdoor to a house with unsightly weeds. It causes the value of their home to go down and its an eyesore to see a yard overgrown with weeds.

 

Somethings must be killed in this world? like bugs and weeds and plants for food?

 

Am I adding up bad karma if I have termite problem and call someone to come out and kill the termites? or should I let my house be destroyed by termites?

 

And what if I spray the ants in my backyard, so the little ones don't get bit by ants. Am I going to get bad karma?

 

It seems killing bugs and plants cannot be avoided. :(

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How can vegetarian food be sinful, when we would die without eating? isn't it a sin to starve to death?

 

There is a serious defect in this line of logic, as it is trying to judge sin based on our own comforts, needs, etc. What is sinful has nothing to do with whether or not it makes us comfortable, nor whether it assists us in any way.

 

 

So are these non-Vaisnava vegetarians committing sin by eating vegetarian? Even though they are doing their best to be compassionate to animal life?

They are certainly noble souls for trying to act in a nonviolent manner. What is being described here is levels of sinful actions. It is much more sinful to kill a human or animal then it is to kill a blade of grass, but still some sin is involved. To absolve ourselves from these sins we have to offer all of our actions to God as a sacrifice.

 

 

Where I live we have a homeowners association, and if we have weeds growing in our frontyard, we will be fined or worse. How am I accruing bad karma by plucking the weeds in my front yard? My neighbors do not want to live nextdoor to a house with unsightly weeds. It causes the value of their home to go down and its an eyesore to see a yard overgrown with weeds.

 

Home value going down doesn't determine sinless action, neither does the fact that you will be fined if you don't do a particular action.

 

Somethings must be killed in this world? like bugs and weeds and plants for food?

...and some other people will extend that list to include fish, and chicken and cows, and jews, and blacks, and nonbelievers... the list can go on according to someone's likes and dislikes. It is true that it is impossible to be 100% nonviolent, and thus it is impossible to be sinless. But we try our best and engage in devotional service to purify ourselves.

 

 

And what if I spray the ants in my backyard, so the little ones don't get bit by ants. Am I going to get bad karma?

 

According to the Vedas all living entities in our house or property are our children, and we are responsible for feeding them and protecting them. There are ants everywhere in India, but they rarely bite anyone; and if one does bite, it's not a serious matter. It really doesn't justify killing thousands of ants simply because we don't like them. Some people have tried the same thing with other races.

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There is a serious defect in this line of logic, as it is trying to judge sin based on our own comforts, needs, etc. What is sinful has nothing to do with whether or not it makes us comfortable, nor whether it assists us in any way.

 

I thought fruits and vegetables were given by God for us to eat. This thinking I guess comes from the Biblical tradition of the Garden of Eden, and not the vedic tradition.

 

This is all new info to me. I knew about not eating animals, but I did not know eat plants was sinful. Honestly, I have not read this in the Gita or from any Gurus. Do all Hindu sects teach this?

 

 

According to the Vedas all living entities in our house or property are our children, and we are responsible for feeding them and protecting them. There are ants everywhere in India, but they rarely bite anyone; and if one does bite, it's not a serious matter. It really doesn't justify killing thousands of ants simply because we don't like them. Some people have tried the same thing with other races.

 

Thanks for this info. Again, I did not know that I was responsible for bugs in my house. Normally I just shew flies outside, but if its a roach or a scorpion I kill it because I do not want these around. Some scorpions are poisonous.

 

I have never been to India, so I did not know how bugs were treated there. In America bug problems around the house are usually exterminated. I guess thats because Americans do not believe animals have souls, let alone bugs.

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those of us raised in the west, really have to readjust our worldview and the way we look at things. I guess in India most of the people are accustomed at looking at the soul in all lifeforms.. so it's natural for them to look at lower lifeforms as having the right to live.

 

In the west, Ahimsa is not taught, and is often looked down upon as a "sissy" way of living.. Ahimsa is especially not taught in regards toward animals. And vegetarians are often labeled animal right extremists. So we have to totally disconnect ourselves from the shallow western worldview.

 

In the west, even in religious circles that believe in a soul, we have been so engrained to believe God only gave human beings souls. And that lower lifeforms are not to be looked at as that important in the grand scheme of things.

 

So when we come to a vedic tradition, we must totally readjust our thinking and burn up our past limited-ideas and concepts. And we need to start looking at all living beings in this world as spirit souls. And readjust our behaviour toward these living beings. Thanks to this thread, I am learning this also includes how we treat plants and bugs. :)

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This is all new info to me. I knew about not eating animals, but I did not know eat plants was sinful.

But do not worry too much about these things in the beginning. It is most important to avoid killing animals, and then slowly work our way up.

 

It is impossible to live without killing something (plants, bacteria, etc.), so we have to offer all our food to God before eating to free us from the sinful reactions. Krishna says in the Gita that those who prepare food for themselves eat sin, but those who first offer it to Him become freed from all sorts of sinful reactions:

 

yajna-sistasinah santo

mucyante sarva-kilbisaih

bhunjate te tv agham papa

ye pacanty atma-karanat

"The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin."

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How can vegetarian food be sinful, when we would die without eating? isn't it a sin to starve to death?

NO, there is absolutely NO starving at all.

We can eat vegetarian food till our stomach cant hold any more without incuring any bad karma PROVIDED the vegetarian food is first offered to the Lord. This has been explicitely said in the Gita.

Eating vegetarian food without offering to GOD first is eating sin because the plants have consciousness (conciousness is an indication of the presence of soul) and as such suffer pain when being killed/harmed. The Lord would take up these sins unto him only if the vegetarian food is first offered to him.

Vegetarian foods when offered to the lord become purified, clean our conciousness and are karma free. In short food for life!

 

I believe I know what verse you are referencing, but most people around the world have never read that verse. Most people in America have never read the Bhagavad Gita and know next to nothing about Krishna. Some of these same people who have never read the Bhagavad Gita and have never heard about Krishna may even be vegetarian. So are these non-Vaisnava vegetarians committing sin by eating vegetarian? Even though they are doing their best to be compassionate to animal life?

These are indeed compassionate souls. The law of karma (action and reaction) applies to everyone, independent of race, sex, religion, time and place. These souls would need to pay off that little bit of bad karma they acquired in causing pain/suffering while killing plants.

Lets suppose for one moment some of these people die and didnt attain liberation specifically because of killing plants for survival (Just for argument sake). Im very sure that GOD in his infinite compassion, would ENSURE that these souls not only would be vegetarian in their next life but also would have complete knowledge that plants have souls and thus the vegetarian food must be offered to him (GOD) first before consumption. No one would burn eternally in hell.

 

 

I did not know it was a sin to cut weeds. No one has ever told me this before. Where I live we have a homeowners association, and if we have weeds growing in our frontyard, we will be fined or worse. How am I accruing bad karma by plucking the weeds in my front yard? My neighbors do not want to live nextdoor to a house with unsightly weeds. It causes the value of their home to go down and its an eyesore to see a yard overgrown with weeds.

Somethings must be killed in this world? like bugs and weeds and plants for food?

Anything which is living (having consciousness thus soul) suffer pain. In killing them we do incur sin, be it weeds or animals. However killing plants results in much lesser bad karma than killing a cow for example.

I am also facing this problem. I would need to weed out my backyard or else my landlord would kick me out.

Certain of our action inevitably violates the law of ahimsa (law of non violence) and thus we commit sins. Removing weeds from our yard is an excellent exmple.

In the Gita it is mentioned that if actions are in connection to GOD then those actions are in the transcedental platform and thus karma free (sinless). As jndas states in one post, if the action of weeding out the backyard is to principally make the backyard looks nice and beautiful so that GOD can enjoy it, then weeding the backyard becomes karma free even if killing is involved. If we weed out the yard for our own sake or that of our neighbour then the same action result in sin.

If we can SINCRELY weed out the yard for God to enjoy, then that action is sinless.

 

 

Am I adding up bad karma if I have termite problem and call someone to come out and kill the termites? or should I let my house be destroyed by termites?

Ok, lets have a little story here.

Lets say that a new species has evolved on earth which is much much bigger, smarter and technologically much more advanced than human beings. Lets refer this new creature as Giant. However the problem with Giant is that they donot understand the human language despite of their great technological advancement.

One day, one of these Giants happens to be interested with your neighbouring environment. So he went to the Giant government and legally purchased the land where you have build your house.

Now after some times, the Giant decides to build his own house on his land. The thing now is he has to get rid of all the bugs, (you , your family along with your house) on his land. So he starts to clear his land (destroy you, your family along with your house) in order to build his beautiful house. How would you feel? Would you not ask under which authority he has done such sinful activities?

Now think, that the Giant is us(human beings) and you as the termites.

Before you bought "your land", there might have been lots of termites' nests and other living creatures already living in there. So under which authority can you destroy/kill them to build your house at the first place?

Unless the place you are constructing in meant to "house" the Lord then that activity is sinful.

Concerning the termites, I think there could be other ways to get rid of them (i.e spray them so that they vacate our place but not killing them). This is still sinful but at least we are not killing them.

And what if I spray the ants in my backyard, so the little ones don't get bit by ants. Am I going to get bad karma?

Few bites wont kill our kids. We should not be too selfish and think of our kids only. What about the thousands of kids we are killing(in the form of ants) to just save our kids from minor suffering.

However if there is a poisonous snake or a poisonous scorpion in my house, I wont feed them. Some people do feed the cobra in their house with milk. Im not spiritual enough to do that. If in case you are like me, I would suggest that you ask for experts to catch them and leave them in the wild far from human beings(This is only my opinion)

 

It seems killing bugs and plants cannot be avoided. :(

No we cannot avoid activities and hence some killing is inevitable. However if our activities are in connection to GOD, then those activities even if they involved killing are karma free.

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