Seshatvam and paratantriyam

October 22, 2004

Dear Sriman Raghavan,

In thennAchArya sampradAyam (Ramanuja Sampradaya),

all those things you have to do, to lead a meaningful life.

Our reaching higher states is His headache (we believe He is there).

How do we try going when we dont even know the address? SrImAn rAjan

has quoted a beautiful ThirumAlai pASuram (verse 38) regarding

righteous (Sishta) people (they keep even mOksham aside).

dAsan

Vishnu

ramanuja, Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan> wrote:

>

> But, let me put my view on reading vedas and leading a life of

righteousness.

>

> All these help one concentrate on HIM. He is showing the way, do

this properly, make your mind rest on ME and ME ALONE, try and try,

that is how you got this Manhood,

> and that is the only way to reach higher states.

>

> Dasan/raghavan

>

October 26, 2004

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Vishnu,

Where did I use the word illusion???? Atleast I know what

mAyA means in shankara's and rAmAnuja's dictionary. Why would I let

any loose word and get caught? All I meant was, all is His grace!

There ends the chapter.

> I disagree with you on one point. If we understand our

> pAratantryam, we attribute it to His grace. If we still dont

> understand even after listening to the learned, that is due to His

> mAyA (wonderful will, not illusion)!

dAsAnu dAsI

October 26, 2004

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear TCA,

So, how do we explain the case of srI kUraththAzhvAn? Why

that Omnipotent,Omniscient... Lord was keeping quiet instead of

coming to the rescue of a bhAgavata??? The Lord had some plans to

prove/show something(AcArya bhakti) to the world thro' AzhvAn's

case. Is it not His grace? AzhvAn disobeyed rAmAnuja in many places

if we refer to our GPP. Even wrt to departing this bhUlOkam,he

wanted to show his AcArya abhimAnam. AzhvAn thought good for nAlUrAn

b'coz AzhvAn was a true bhAgavata.

My question to you is,did rAmAnuja, being another bhAgavata

(he is many thing,for the time being we can ignore other things)wish

bad/curse for nAlUrAn or did he say the Lord was cruel to AzhvAn?

If one doesn't want to consider that as God's grace, AzhvAn

should have taken credit for his own action. Instead he only said

may be he thought some bhAgavata's thirumaN was angled that's why

God took away his eyesight. If somebody tries to denigrate the Lord,

He will/knows to protect Himself. That's the supremacy of our

religion over all other religions. You don't propagate vedas like

the westerners do wrt their scripture. Our scriptures(if you guys

say vedas are the breath of srIman nArAyaNA) are fundamentally

strong that it can exist on its own without our support. Well, the

functioning of our own body is not in our hands! Why the thEpperumAL

of kAnci is keeping His mouth shut witnessing all kinds of nonsense

(instead of using His cakram)? Has anyone found solution to that

problem? That's also His grace. Once I listened to Swami MAV's

upanyAsam on doctrinal differences. He quoted kamban's some verse.

That's a different topic anyways! I will continue this in the next

post and I am going to use your own posts on bhaTTar's to address

this issue. You write wonderfully about bhaTTar's story/anecdotes,

yet ask this kind of question:-) I'm not as erudite as you're but

I'm prepared to wait for that Lord to shower gnyAnam on me b'coz

there is an immense pleasure in that waiting time that one can't

describe!

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

dAsAnu dAsI

> Elsewhere, Nappinnai writes: "Even if another person

> behaves badly, or things go wrong, it will have the

> mindset to think that everything is His grace." This

> is easy to digest when it is directed toward one's

> self. But if we witness an act of misbehaviour by a

> person toward the Lord, or worse, toward a bhAgavata,

> do we say that it is by His grace too?

October 26, 2004

Dear Nappinnai,

I ask these questions because of my concern that you

are all advocating inaction on the part of the jIva -

that is accept everything as the act of the Lord

(which is fine) and that the jIva has no cause to do

anything (which is not). Even in the example you

used, Ramanuja did ask Koorathazhvan to ask Lord

Varadaraja to give him his eyesight back. Why did he

do that? There are so many instances where all these

acharyas took actions instead of simply sitting

back. Why?

If you see certain activities in Kanchi or anywhere,

is it your role to be inactive or is your role to

see how you can serve there - while realizing that

whatever happens and will happen is His will? If you

see that our sampradhayam is getting crushed, is it

your role to try to help restore it or do you leave

that too as the act of the Lord and do nothing about

it.

For eg, the upanyasam you heard from VK Swami happened

because some folks that that they had to do something

to help the sampradhayam. As another eg, why is

Chinna Jeeyar Swami struggling so hard at Thirumalai

to straighten things there.

If you do decide to act in certain ways (propagating

the Vedas or protecting the Lord's divyadesam or

whatever), are you acting on your own will and think

you should not do that; or do you act that way because

you realize that truly it is the Lord who is directing

you to act in that fashion?

After all, he owns you body AND mind right? Since, He

is witness to all your thoughts as well ("uLLuvAr

uLLaththu udan irundhu aRidhi"), why feel that your

thoughts of wishing to do certain actions are separate

from His will?

There is a wonderful story to think about here: A

person was drowning and was waiting for the Lord to

help him survive. A log came by and he did not

catch it; a boat came by and he rejected those who

tried to lift him out of the water, etc. All the

time, he kept waiting for the Lord to come by and

save him. In the end, he drowned. In the other

world, he met the Lord and asked Him why He did

not come to save him. The Lord smiled and asked

him: "I did try to save you. Did I not send the

log, the boat, etc to help resuce you?"

adiyEn

October 26, 2004

Venkatesan swami,

This is what the crux is. We have the seshatvam to do what we think we have to.

But to understand that this is also the will of HIM, and to surrender to his

will is

paratantriyam. When that clarity comes, the sage would have clung to the log!!!

Dasan/Raghavan

October 26, 2004

Sriman,

KARMANYEVAADIKARASTE MAA PALESHU KADACHANA

AHAM TVA

this is what he said. And it will be his duty to do the best for his followers.

He also says NA ME BHAKTA PRANASHYATI

Dasan/raghavan

Vishnu <vsmvishnu wrote:

Dear Sriman Raghavan,

In thennAchArya sampradAyam (Ramanuja Sampradaya),

all those things you have to do, to lead a meaningful life.

Our reaching higher states is His headache (we believe He is there).

How do we try going when we dont even know the address? SrImAn rAjan

has quoted a beautiful ThirumAlai pASuram (verse 38) regarding

righteous (Sishta) people (they keep even mOksham aside).

dAsan

Vishnu

October 26, 2004

Dear Srimathi Vaidehi

I am thankful for your valuable inputs on the above topic.

I refer to the point that you have made in your mail regarding the above.

Lord needing a reason to shower His

grace has no place in TK school of thought if my understanding is right!

You have also added

B'coz there are jIvAtmAs which are totally incapable of even following the

simplest procedures. If we go by

strict procedures, we need to ask "how many brahmins learn and

preach vedas or spend time in DDs instead of sitting abroad(within

the home country as well as outside)?"

This is a very valid argument.

There was a recent mail from another knowledgeable person which I quote.

B does not drive the soul to act in a particular way. If that is

so B can be faulted to be partial and unkind. , since

B makes someone to do good and some other to do bad. B

gives us freedom to take the first step and then

directs us to take further steps accordingly.

I have suggested that the first step can be Bhakthi or prapathi.

As you know ,for prapathi,there is no restriction regarding

location,time,method,eligibility and also the purpose.

In TK school of thought also ,the Lord needs a pretext or a flimsy reason for

the flow of His grace. There are also references of unintentional merit and

imposed merit in Sri vachana Bhushanam.

There was another scholarly thought from Smt. Sumitra Varadarajan.

The narrative of comparing the Lord with a farmer who cultivates the souls is

scholarly. I do not know whether this stream of philosophy regarding the Lord's

eagerness to redeem the souls is different from nirhetuka Krupai according to

our poorvacharyars.

I request to be excused for any inaccuracies.

Adiyen Ramanujadasan

Soundararajan

Azhwar emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

ramanuja/

ramanuja

October 27, 2004

Dear Ms Nappinnai,

I know that u did not use the word illusion! I wanted to bring in the concept of

mAyA, which is bhagavat swarUpa tirOdhAnakarI. To avoid being called a mAyAvAdI,

I gave the SV interpreation of mAyA.

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Vishnu

vaidhehi_nc <nappinnai_nc wrote:

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Vishnu,

Where did I use the word illusion???? Atleast I know what

mAyA means in shankara's and rAmAnuja's dictionary. Why would I let

any loose word and get caught? All I meant was, all is His grace!

There ends the chapter.

> I disagree with you on one point. If we understand our

> pAratantryam, we attribute it to His grace. If we still dont

> understand even after listening to the learned, that is due to His

> mAyA (wonderful will, not illusion)!

dAsAnu dAsI

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

October 27, 2004

Srimathe ramanujaya Namaha,

Dear Sri Venkatesan,

Only to clarify this doubt adiyen quoted the sutras from tattvatrayam of Sri

Pillai lokacharya. Let adiyen explain the same to an extent. First of all this

is a very tough subject to explain and make one understand even by great

Srivaishnava acharyas. It is a very daring effort for adiyen to try explaining

the same in a foreign language through this email forum. Still let me try what

adiyen can, holding on to the divine feet of Sri Parthasarathi emperuman.

There are three terms to be understood at the start,

1. jnAthruthvam

2. karthruthvam

3. bhOkthruthvam

A achetana object doesnt have any knowledge so it cannot do anything and hence

it doesnt enjoy at all. But that is not the case with we jeevatmas. We are

blessed with jnanam. Due to the knowledge we are capable to act and our actions

fetch us either happiness or sorrow. So we find that karthruthvam and

bhOkthruthvam are the resultants of jnAthruthvam. Some (sankyas) started to say

that karthruthvam is only for the gunas/prakruthi and not for the jeevatma. But

we see that the result sorga/nargangal is not for the gunas but only for the

jeevatma. As per the sastras only one who sows ripes the fruit. So the

karthruthvam is only for the chetanas. But while analysing if the karthruthvam

is the jeevatma's svaroopa?

Sri PL answers "sAmsArika pravruththigalil karthruthvam svaroopaprayuktha

mandru"

The vyakhyanam is "sAmsArika pravruthigalAvana-striannapAnAdhi bhOgangalai

uthdEsiththu paNNum vyApArangal, avattril, karthruthvam owpAdhikam AgaiyAlE

svaroopa prayuktha mandrenkai"

Whatever we do for attaining sexual pleasures, food, water etc is for the sake

of the body and hence it is not related with the svaroopa of the jeevatma. Then

how did it come to this atma?

PL answers "gunasamsargakrutham"

It has arised due to the connection of the trigunas-sattvam, rajas, tamas.

"sattvam rajas tama ethi gunA: prakruthi sambhavA: " says geethAcharyan. So

first it has been proved by PL that karthruthvam is not for prakruthi but only

for jeevatma. Then he goes to answer if this karthruthvam is due to svayathyam

(self try) or parAyathyam (insticated by others/emperuman)

PL "karthruthvam thAn eshvarAdheenam"

Whatever the jeevatma does activated by his knowledge is only with the

permission of emperuman. Then can we attribute all the wrong things done by the

jeevatma to be done due to emperuman's wish? Emperuman allows each jeevatma to

act according to his "prathama prayatnam". All jeevatmas are filled with

knowledge and hence it can differentiate between the good and the bad. So

emperuman initially stays as a judge and allows the jeevatma to act according to

his poorvavAsanas. At that time emperuman remains as a neutral person and

leaves the jeevatma in its own way not reacting to any of his acts. Then based

on the prathama prayatnam emperuman allows the jeevatma to continue in the right

or wrong way. So emperuman does give us the chance of act on our own and then

only guides us accordingly. So the act of refusal belongs only to the kid.

Emperuman stays as a sAkshibhoothan like that of the mother. But one thing has

to be kept in mind it is emperuman's wish to leave the jeevatma to act on its

own as prescribed in the sastras by emperuman himself. He always has the power

to act otherwise. So the final conclusion is everything is emperuman's leela,

he is playing a game in this leela vibhooti and if we understand the fine points

of the game and surrender to his feet totally then he makes us the winner and

sends us to the nithya vibhooti since he knows that there is no point in keeping

us still in this game.

All mistakes are due to adiyen's weak understanding of the fine concepts so

adiyen requests bhagavatas to please forgive and correct me appropriately. If

anything is useful in this mail then it is due to the nirheduka krupai of

parthasarathi who is clarifying our doubts through adiyen's hands.

Azhvar emperumAnAr Jeeyer thiruvadigalE sharaNam

Adiyen ramanuja dAsee

Sumithra Varadarajan

-

TCA Venkatesan

ramanuja

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:24 AM

[ramanuja] Re: Seshatvam and paratantriyam

Sri:

Dear Smt Sumithra,

adiyEn's praNAms.

The question here is: "if the kid refuses", is that

refusal an act of the Lord too? If so, how is the

kid responsible for his faulty behaviour? This is

what is being implied by many posts in this group.

Hence my question.

Elsewhere, Nappinnai writes: "Even if another person

behaves badly, or things go wrong, it will have the

mindset to think that everything is His grace." This

is easy to digest when it is directed toward one's

self. But if we witness an act of misbehaviour by a

person toward the Lord, or worse, toward a bhAgavata,

do we say that it is by His grace too?

I think there are lots of questions here on what

exactly is nirhetukam and whether the jIva owns any

act or is it all the Lord's? adiyEn is reading an

article by mahAvidwAn PBA Swami on the concept of

nirhetukam. I will try to translate it as best as

I can and post it here soon.

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

> Like a mother holding the

> hands of a kid and writing a letter on the paper and then

> praising the kid for writing correctly emperuman does

> everything and grants us moksha. But if the kid refuses

> to write at all then the mother either scolds, advices or

> sometimes even beats to make the kid write. That is what

> emperuman also does. The kid has no free will it is

> governed by the mother similar is the case of all

> jeevatmas who are none other than the kids of the divine

> supreme lord.

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

ramanuja/

b..

ramanuja

c..

October 27, 2004

Dear TCAV swamin/Smt. Sumithra

Adiyen is going to attempt an explanation on the term "prathama prayatnam"

quoted by Smt. Sumithra in a literal lay man's terms without touching any of

our Vaishnava pari bashais.

It can be compared to the behaviour of an #Ideal Class teacher# (A Male -

analogy to our emperuman)towards his class students.

When teaching to his students he does not have any bias of one student

should be taught better and the other student should be deprived of the

same. He unilaterally does his best to pass on the knowledge to his students

without any bias.

But what is the result ? Not every student gets first or scores a

distinction. There will be many failures. Why? Is it the mistake of the

Teacher? No it depends on how far a student has concentrated and grasped the

subject from the teacher. He should have shown faith on the teacher and

learned his lessons.

This is what done by our emperuman in parting the rules to the jeevatmas in

terms of the sastras and other scriptures and teachings of various acharyas.

But while an exam is going on, a teacher cannot go and help a student to get

through or get distinction in his exams. He has to silently watch.

This is what exactly done by emperuman. Whoever has the supreme faith in

him, learns his lessons and gets the special credit from him.

Even in the case of a class, a Teacher will have a set of students who will

be in his heart. This is entirely due to the behaviour of the students

towards him. Similar is the case with emperuman also.

Hope this clarifies partly the understanding. Again all mistakes are due to

adiyen's weak understanding of the subtle concepts. so adiyen requests

bhagavatas to correct adiyen appropriately whereever wrong.

Adiyen Varadaraja dasan.

October 27, 2004

very nice explanation by Sriman Varadharajan

Smt. vedavalli Ranganathan.

--- "Varadarajan S (CTC)" <varada wrote:

>

> Dear TCAV swamin/Smt. Sumithra

>

> Adiyen is going to attempt an explanation on the

> term "prathama prayatnam"

> quoted by Smt. Sumithra in a literal lay man's terms

> without touching any of

> our Vaishnava pari bashais.

>

> It can be compared to the behaviour of an #Ideal

> Class teacher# (A Male -

> analogy to our emperuman)towards his class students.

>

> When teaching to his students he does not have any

> bias of one student

> should be taught better and the other student should

> be deprived of the

> same. He unilaterally does his best to pass on the

> knowledge to his students

> without any bias.

>

> But what is the result ? Not every student gets

> first or scores a

> distinction. There will be many failures. Why? Is it

> the mistake of the

> Teacher? No it depends on how far a student has

> concentrated and grasped the

> subject from the teacher. He should have shown faith

> on the teacher and

> learned his lessons.

> This is what done by our emperuman in parting the

> rules to the jeevatmas in

> terms of the sastras and other scriptures and

> teachings of various acharyas.

>

> But while an exam is going on, a teacher cannot go

> and help a student to get

> through or get distinction in his exams. He has to

> silently watch.

>

> This is what exactly done by emperuman. Whoever has

> the supreme faith in

> him, learns his lessons and gets the special credit

> from him.

>

> Even in the case of a class, a Teacher will have a

> set of students who will

> be in his heart. This is entirely due to the

> behaviour of the students

> towards him. Similar is the case with emperuman

> also.

>

> Hope this clarifies partly the understanding. Again

> all mistakes are due to

> adiyen's weak understanding of the subtle concepts.

> so adiyen requests

> bhagavatas to correct adiyen appropriately whereever

> wrong.

>

> Adiyen Varadaraja dasan.

>

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October 27, 2004

real good explanation thanks for teaching

dasan/raghavan

vedavalli ranganathan <vedaranga wrote:

very nice explanation by Sriman Varadharajan

Smt. vedavalli Ranganathan.

October 27, 2004

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear sriman soundararajan,

> B does not drive the soul to act in a particular way. If that is

> so B can be faulted to be partial and unkind. , since

> B makes someone to do good and some other to do bad. B

> gives us freedom to take the first step and then

> directs us to take further steps accordingly.

If I can take that first step on my own, I don't need that God for

making further steps. This one can prove logically.

> In TK school of thought also ,the Lord needs a pretext or a flimsy

> reason for the flow of His grace. There are also references of

> unintentional merit and imposed merit in Sri vachana Bhushanam.

If one reads SVB very closely, it is a complete smack for Ego.

That's why maNavALa mAmunigaL made a statement that if you can find

one person who practises what is said in SVB,that itself is a big

surprise.

As I said in one of the posts that jIvAtmA would blame when it

doesn't realize. Velukkudi Krishnan swami says in tirumantra

upanyAsam "vAli accuses srIrAmA that b'coz sItA is not with You,

Your mind is totally imbalanced and You don't know what You are

doing." SrIrAmA kills vAli and vAli accuses perumAL like this. There

is a purpose behind vAli vadam that vAli doesn't know. In short,

vAli doesn't know the Lord's thought/will. That's why he is blaming

the Lord.

Well, both Sri PL and Sri AMPN defend each other's work. NammAzhvAr

says "I just uttered tirumAlirumsOlai. But what all He has done for

me". AzhvAr makes it very clear that whatever AzhvAr is endowed with

is not b'coz of that uttering "tirumAlirumsOlai or mAdhava" but by

sheer causeless grace of the Lord". If Lord gives merit for some

small act on the jIvAtmA's part, that shows the greatness of the

Lord and not the jIvAtmA. The jIvAtmA's contribution is so

insignificant that it can be deleted from the scene! If a jIvAtmA

wants some alpa santhOSham by thinking that it is also contributing

(which amounts to ego), well who is the loser?

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

dAsAnu dAsI

NC Nappinnai

October 28, 2004

Dear Shri VaradarajanSumithrA,

It is said that "karthruthvamthAn EswarAdhEnam" The acts done by the soul is

dominated by the Lord and is not independent of Him.

If that is so? why should the kArmic effects shoul be borne by the souls?

This is where the term "prathama prayathnam" comes into play.

I would rather put it this way. All the acts done by the soul are permitted by

the Lord. However, the initial course, direction or a way is first decided by

the soul. At this initial juncture emperumAn is neutral or is indifferent. He

neither encourages good deed or discourages bad deed. Once, the soul takes the

course, emprumAn permits the soul to do in its act.

The vyAkyAnam runs as follows: "avvidathil, madhyashthanAgiaiyAlEa vudhAsEnaraip

pOlEa irukkiRa paramAthmAvAnavan, andha chEthananudaiya pUrva vAsanArupamAna

vidhi nishEsha pravruthiyilE anumathiyaiyum, anAdharaithaiyum vudaiayavanAik

koNdu, vihidangaLilEa anugrahathaiyum, nishidhangaLilEa nigrahathaiyum paNNA

niRpAnAi..."

rAmAnuja dAsan

vanamamalai padmanabhan

For instance, let us say the soul is at a stage of deciding to do or not to

commit a sin. EmperumAn is neutral at this stage. Once, the soul decides to do

so, the course is taken and goes on. ( If emperumAn is not neutral at this

stage, then, the question of kArmic effects falling on the soul will not arise)

That may be a crude and genral menaing of

"prathama prayatnam".

-

Varadarajan S (CTC)

ramanuja

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:39 PM

RE: [ramanuja] Re: Seshatvam and paratantriyam