Xochitl

wow, this is a really long thread.

Sant-dada please try to understand, no one is saying bad about him. We have heard these things from others, I think in both cases it is from someone who experienced/saw first-hand. I don't want to go into detail about the people who told me about it because I don't want to further this discussion. I saw a photo of him and the quotation says like this "whoever sees him can glimpse the true form of radha krishna love appearing it its fullest charm" Is this not a blatant imitation of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, what about the gaudiyas who find this statement objectionable? I did go to Kripalu Maharaj's website, that is where I saw that photo and quote, if you don't believe me just look at my other post. My originaly intention was to learn more about him from the beginning. I even tried to go with my godbrother to see his Barshana Dham in Austin, Texas because we heard so many wonderful things about it. Some devotees later told me that he likes to compare himself to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Sri Radha Krishna, which I can honestly say now, I find to be objectionable coming from Sri Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya. We still wanted to go see for ourselves unfortunately, I was not able to go due to last minute emergencies. My godbrother brought back a leaflet from Sri Barshana Dham for me, that is where I saw their website address and read more about him.

I did not say anything about any rape charges against Kripalu Maharaj. Basically b/c anyone can say "he raped me" and there is no proof to say for certain if it was consentual or not. That is not my point.. and I also mentioned that as far as we know, these accusations are just rumors and malicious gossip. I doubt however, that anyone especially Vaishnava, would accuse someone of adultery just to discredit someone. Actually, in India this practice of offering his wive to one's guru is not uncommon. It is still going on in India to this day. The newlywed couple will not have sexual relations before the guru will "accept" her and give her back as "prasad". I am not going to mention anyone's name but I personally know someone whose family tradition was exactly this. They are Goswami families who act as family gurus, among other services they "accept" newlywed brides as "offerings" and return them back to her husband as "prasadam" after he has engaged in sexual relations with her. The families of the bride are very jubiliated when the bride is offered in this way. I personally think that this practice is just shady and very dubious, I don't know anyone who will understand it.

I also heard that Kripalu Maharaj sleeps with his disciples but I didn't know anything about him having a family. He has an ashram in Vrindavan where he is said to invite disciples and sleep with them. Obviously, there is no way to know for sure unless we asked Maharaj directly and he admitted to it(which would be stupid, because even if he was doing I doubt that he'd admit it).So, basically it's just rumors or gossip. A few devotees have gone to visit his Barsana Dham in Austin, mainly out of curiosity and they all came with different points of view and some had mixed feeligns. I don't know what to make of it myself, but I don't like how he likens himself to Radha Krishna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that leaves an uncomfortable feeling in me. you can see it and read about it on his website. http://www.barsanadham.org/ I remember seeing that leaflet, of which Haridasdasdas prabhu speaks of and it is very cartoony, it just makes me giggle.

Dear Bhaktajan prabhu, I think you and I have basically the same acknowledgement as our statements are practially the same message only worded differently. However, by implication, you are saying that he has given up krishna prasadam and is searching for something "better", which I think is an incorrect conclusion. I don't think Lotusflower has given up Krishna, he may just be fried by the institution/matha he was affiliated with, he even admit that he still has love for Lord Krishna. It is also possible to worship the Lord in one's home, isn't it? Hindustani prabhu, I don't understand why you have to ridicule our bhaktajan prabhu for quoting a text into his reply. What is wrong with quoting the sastra in these matters especially when it is applicable to the situation? I think it is very obvious that bhaktajan agrees with the conclusion of Sri Isopanishad so what is wrong with that? You and I may differ in opinion but just because he agrees with quoted verse that does not mean it is less than his own personal opinion/realisation.

I am deeply saddened to hear that you have decided to "give up" KC, but I am sure Krishna has not given up on you. Please keep on chanting and making some endeavor for spiritual life. Even a little progress can help. Everyone is making progress in the cycle of birth and death, regardless of if he is endeavoring for it or not. Even the most sinful person is getting purified of his attachment to material nature. This process takes a long time but it is my personal realisation that just like someone who overindulges in sweets eventually grows sick and tired and loses his taste for it, a sinful or lusty man grows detached from material sense gratification and becomes materially exhausted. It is from this exhaustion that the jiva turns away from sensual indulgence and turns towards spiritual life. Srila Prabhupada says that for one to take the spiritual path ie Krishna Consciousness, he must be completely devoid of sin or "free of sin" and I used to wonder what that meant because the statement seems apparently contradictory (b/c we work within the system of vaidhi bhakti in order to purify ourselves of sinful propensities and become pure devotees of Krishna) but I think I understand very deeply now. We can not force everyone to follow our standard because not everyone is ready or sincere. Even within the Vaishnava community, I think, there are very few, rare souls that are truly sincere bhaktas. I think Vaishnavas should be more compassionate and less judgemental of the other traditions, in an understanding that every spirit soul is making progress, very slowly but surely. Encourage them to come to a higher standard but let them make mistakes; sometimes it is only after one is kicked repeatedly by Maya that one learns his lesson.

I know that in ISKCON Ujjain Siva-Ratri is one of the biggest festivals held there. http://picasaweb.google.com/bhakticharuswami.com/ShivaRatriCelebration#

Hahaha! I was continuously terrified for the entire first week there.

vāco vegaḿ manasaḥ krodha-vegaḿ jihvā-vegam udaropastha-vegam etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ sarvām apīmāḿ pṛthivīḿ sa śiṣyāt "A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world." Srila Prabhupada mentions that the only way to control the sex urge is to control the tongue, that means to only eat sattvik food, which is offered to Lord Krishna, or Krishna prasadam. This is because the tongue, belly and genitals are in a line on the body and have very direct connection. Whatever one eats and puts into the belly will cause different reactions in the body, particularly on the libido. In the same verse's purport he mentions: "In a similar manner, the urges of the genitals, the sex impulse, can be controlled when not used unnecessarily. The genitals should be used to beget a Kṛṣṇa conscious child, otherwise they should not be used. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement encourages marriage not for the satisfaction of the genitals but for the begetting of Kṛṣṇa conscious children. As soon as the children are a little grown up, they are sent to our Gurukula school, where they are trained to become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees. Many such Kṛṣṇa conscious children are required, and one who is capable of bringing forth Kṛṣṇa conscious offspring is allowed to utilize his genitals." So, just avoid sexual contact, that includes touching,talking or thinking about sex.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta vande 'nantādbhutaiśvaryaḿ śrī-caitanya-mahāprabhum nīco 'pi yat-prasādāt syād bhakti-śāstra-pravartakaḥ "Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who has unlimited, wonderful opulences. By His mercy, even a person born as the lowest of men can spread the science of devotional service." First off, dearest brother, Chandu-da, you need to shut the hell up! You may not know this but Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Sri Krishna Himself, absorbed in the mood and appearance of Srimati Radharani. Srimati Radharani is always thinking of Krishna, the cowherd and thus Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is completely mad, constantly meditating upon Krishna's Vraja-lila, He becomes completely absorbed in ecstatic manifestations of krishna-prema . Therefore, if one worships and glorifies Sri Caitanya Maharpabhu he is factually worshipping Sri Sri Radhika Krishna Chandra within the most intimate setting of Sri Vraja Dham, in the most intimate mood of madhurya-rasa and therefore one quickly and easily escapes the obstacles to spiritual life and get vraja krishna-prema. Only by chanting Hare Krishna Maha Mantra and meditating upon Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, one can easily override any obstacles on the path of love of Godhead. So yes, what were you saying about the necessity to glorify Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu? Please excuse my serious language, but I am infuriated if anyone will instigate a fight on topics of whether or not to worship Sri Sri Nitai-Gaura-chandra! If you want to futher this fight, then just save yourself the waste of breath, and give me your physical address so I can just show up and kick your ass up and down the street! Please, all the assembled sadhus, please forgive my bad language. I am in a bad mood for the rest of the day now.

I get "tingling" sensations between the eyebrows all the time... does it mean I'm stimulating my ajna cakra? No, probably I'm just sleep deprived

there is another quick verse that serves to validate my point. Ironically, I was just reading when I came across this verse and thought, "How appropriate." arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhir viṣṇor vā vaiṣṇsnavānāḿ kali-mala-mathane pāda-tīrthe 'mbu-buddhiḥ śrī-viṣṇor nāmni mantre sakala-kaluṣa-he śabda-sāmānya-buddhir viṣṇau sarveśvareśe tad-itara-sama-dhīr yasya vā nārakī saḥ No one should consider the Deity in the temple to be made of stone or wood, nor should one consider the spiritual master an ordinary human being. No one should consider a Vaiṣṇava to belong to a particular caste or creed, and no one should consider caraṇāmṛta or Ganges water to be like ordinary water. Nor should anyone consider the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra to be a material vibration. All these expansions of Kṛṣṇa in the material world are simply demonstrations of the Lord's mercy and willingness to give facility to His devotees who are engaged in His devotional service within the material world. BOOYAH!

Andy108, excuse me? delusion? material body? Are we suddently pure devotees and not subject to the gunas of material nature? Are you transcendental to the material body? Apparently so, I wonder then, if we're all so damn great, why we are here in this world in the first place? Everyone has to start somewhere.. it starts with spiritual initiation. This is not an assumption either way, it is the formality of initiation which helps one to begin his spiritual life, reviving his relationship with the Lord. There can not be chaos in this matter, there has to be a system, like Suchandra prabhu and others just mentioned. It is a formality, but that doesn't mean that it is less than 100% a spiritual investment. Okay...I'm gonna go off on a tangent here... About Jesus Christ, there is an apparent contradiction, but like I said, it is up to the guru to accept the disciple. That is also limited by the level of advancement of the disciple; accordingly, we get spiritual reciprocation from guru. The Christians today don't follow the rules and regulations, and the one that do follow are regarded as heretics and fanatics. Everyone makes jokes at the Mormons for being "too strict", but seriously who can point the finger? "let he without sin cast the first stone" Nobody is qualified to criticize the other, because none of the Christians achieved any significant spiritual advancement. Tell me how many "Christians" do you know that follow strictly and really love God? Any takers? okay.... And where do you get off saying that His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada never met any of his disciples, never, ever? What the hell are you talking about? I met plenty of disciples that met Srila Prabhupada one on one, face to face, and even taught them how to tie their caupins and wear their saris. Explain me that? Were they deluded? Maybe they were hallucinating? To think that the guru's material body is contaminated by the material nature or to reduce the disciple's surrender to the guru to mere "delusion" is aparadha, that is the delusion. The formality is there, yes it is really only a formality but it is a spiritual formality, it is not delusion! That relationship is based on spiritual capability; if someone is willing, able and sincere, then yes, he would get his foot into the door, so to speak. The point is, there is still regulation, even if Srila Prabhupada didn't "personally", with his material body, oversee the disciple, still he had authorized delegates, if you will, to do the supervising. That was the point. He authorized them for a certain purpose during a certain time, to assume that it meant forever and ever, then no, I have to say I don't agree. Because of the fact that Srila Prabhupada said he wanted all his disciples, "boys and girls" to become gurus in the future and by that statement, one can understand that Prabhupada intended his disciples to work their way up to be spiritual masters and one day accept disciples themselves. Eventually. Why would he say that if he didn't mean it? Was he just saying it to put his disciples in a sticky situation? Why would he give instructions if he didn't intend them to be taken seriously? To expose his disciples to future guru-aparadha? The problem we have in ISKCON today is not Prabhupada's lack of instructions, but abundance thereof. He set extremely high standards, he wanted each and everyone to become a first-class Vaishnava and brahmin, thereby establishing varnasram dharma and eradicating hypocrisy, dupliciousness and sinful activity to almost nil. He gave instructions that, I think, would be totally impossible for the modern sadhana-slacker, I mean to say, ISKCON devotee; I mean, let's be honest, can anyone say in full faith(hand on the Gita), "Yes, I am aspiring to become a bonafide spiritual master, I am making my heartfelt, hardest and best endevour, so that I can propagate Srila Prabhupada's family one day." No! So yeah, mind your own damn anarthas... I'm quoting bhaktajan prabhu for a finishing note because I like what he said, and because I just feel like it.

Yes, I agree with you prabhu, but I also want to bring up the point that Suchandra prabhu was mentioning earlier. That it is possible to accept "diksha" from a guru who is not on the planet, I disagree, because clearly the scripture delineates the relationship of guru/sisya and one that is a mutual agreement, between two living embodied souls. The Guru accepts the disciple after the disciple accepts the authority of the guru. It is a two way road, that is what regulates the process of accepting a guru/disciple. There can only be reciprocation through the formality of diksha between the two when they are both alive and breathing. What to speak of the actual performance of the yajna, which is supposed to be performed in the presence of the guru? The only exception which has been made, to my knowledge was the sannnyas initiation of Sri Srimad Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Goswami Maharaj... isn't it? This only emphasizes the point that you have to be extremely advanced to even attempt such rituals. So my advice is, if you are a pure devotee on the level of Srila Prabhupada, then yes you can do your own initiation ceremony with a photo of your guru. However, let it be clear that I totally disagree with the rtvik philosophy altogether, because of the fact that there has to be mutual reciprocation. Again, that means, disciple will accept the guru, and guru has to accept the disciple through the formality of harinam diksha. Otherwise, anyone can claim anyone as his guru, just like any girl can say "Justin Timberlake is my boyfriend."

I demand that you take this statement back, Srila Prabhupada never spoke "lies" or was dishonest. He spoke clearly from the scriptural(sastra)point of view, from what he heard directly from his Guru Mahraj(guru), and what was confirmed by other Vaishnava acharyas(sadhu). This is the text to provide ample evidence that Jesus is factually acceptable as an avesa avatar. Srila Prabhupada would never say that Jesus Christ was an avatar just to kiss some Christian ass! He said it because he has faith in the words of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu! Just because so-called Vaishnavas can not accept Jesus or other prophets as avatar on the basis of scripture, that does not mean that it is not true. They are merely kali-cela. I have highlighted the relevant subject matter. Here you have it in plain black and white now I want you to apologize for this offensive statement. Whomsoever will dare and challenge Srila Prabhupada's statements in regards to Guru and Vishnu-tattva should shut his goddamn mouth and you should tell him to learn the scripture. First read the Bhagavatam and Caitanya Caritamrta then you can talk. According to this statement, a distributor of spiritual knowledge is avesa-rupa or sakta-avesa-avatar, that is the fact. Srila Prabhupada was such a divinely empowered avatar. CC Madhya lila Chapter 20 verse 165 svayaḿ-rūpa, tad-ekātma-rūpa, āveśa — nāma prathamei tina-rūpe rahena bhagavān SYNONYMS svayam-rūpa — the original form; tat-ekātma-rūpa — the same form, nondifferent from svayaḿ-rūpa; āveśa — especially empowered; nāma — named; prathamei — in the beginning; tina-rūpe — in three forms; rahena — remains; bhagavān — the Supreme Personality of Godhead. TRANSLATION "The Supreme Personality of Godhead exists in three principal forms — svayaḿ-rūpa, tad-ekātma-rūpa and āveśa-rūpa. PURPORT Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī has described the svayaḿ-rūpa in his Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta, Pūrva-khaṇḍa, verse 12: ananyāpekṣi yad rūpaḿ svayaḿ-rūpaḥ sa ucyate. "The form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead that does not depend on other forms is called the svayaḿ-rūpa, the original form." This form is also described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (1.3.28). "Kṛṣṇa is the original form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That Kṛṣṇa's form as a cowherd boy in Vṛndāvana is the original form of the Personality of Godhead (svayaḿ-rūpa) is confirmed in the Brahma-saḿhitā (5.1): īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam There is nothing superior to Govinda. He is the ultimate source and the cause of all causes. This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.7), where the Lord says, mattaḥ parataraḿ nānyat: "There is no truth superior to Me. The tad-ekātma-rūpa forms are also described in the Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta (Pūrva-khaṇḍa, verse 14): yad rūpaḿ tad-abhedena svarūpeṇa virājate ākṛtyādibhir anyādṛk sa tad-ekātma-rūpakaḥ "The tad-ekātma-rūpa forms exist simultaneously with the svayaḿ-rūpa form and are nondifferent. At the same time, their bodily features and specific activities appear to be different." The tad-ekātma-rūpa forms are divided into two categories — svāḿśa and vilāsa. Lord Kṛṣṇa's āveśa forms are also explained in the Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta (Pūrva 18): jñāna-śakty-ādi-kalayā yatrāviṣṭo janārdanaḥ ta āveśā nigadyante jīvā eva mahattamāḥ "A living entity who is specifically empowered by the Lord with knowledge or strength is technically called āveśa-rūpa." As stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Antya 7.11), kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nahe tāra pravartana: Unless a devotee is specifically empowered by the Lord, he cannot preach the holy name of the Lord all over the world. This is an explanation of the word āveśa-rūpa.

hahahahaha, that's a really good one!

Beautifully spoken, Narasingh.

You're going to Mayapur, so practically nobody will speak to you in Hindi, everyone speaks bengali, the accomodations are inside the ISKCON complex, you don't ever have to go out except for visiting other holy sites. The temple rules are very strict so no, you won't be allowed to share rooms with the opposite sex. If you want to go out, ask a devotee to accompany you and help you negociate rickshaw prices or you will get cheated. It is good to have a Bengali friend for that, especially since they are great bargainers in the marketplaces, they can show you around all the important sites and translate Bengali writing if you need it.

There was a young man interested in taking sky diving lessons. Finally he acquired an instructor and began taking lessons. At the end of the lessons the young man, overcome with doubt, began to ask his instructor, "What if the parachute doesn't deploy properly? What if it just doesn't come out?" The instructor replied in a joking fashion, "Just pray that you can walk away!" The young man was even more insecure after that and he looked for another more reassuring answer. By chance, he happened upon another sky-diving instructor, who was a devout Buddhist. The young man asked him, "What should I do if my 'chute fails?" to which the Buddhist instructor advised him, "Just meditate on Lord Buddha and ask His compassion and mercy. He will definitely protect you." The young man was reassured with that answer and went on his merry sky-diving way. As a matter of fate, when the time came to pull his 'chute-cord the parachute did not deploy and the young man was overcome with panic and grief. "Oh, no. Oh no! What do I do? What do I do?" He tried to think and remembering the Buddhist's advise, the young man meditated on Lord Buddha and prayed to Him thus, "Dear Buddha, please Lord, save me!" To the young man's surprise, he saw a large, beautifully formed hand emerge from the heavens and the clouds parted away, then, the hand caught the young man and then gently placed him upon solid ground. Upon landing, the young man bowed to the ground and kissing the earth proclaimed, "OH, thank God!" Immediately the hand emerged again and *SMACK!* with an open palm smashed the young man into the ground. HAHAHAH

Okay, I understand that point as well, it is very valid, but I think young Ian has already set his heart on someone, and that is serious. I think he already has attachment to SNM that is why he is insistent on having association with those who can fan the flames of guru-bhakti.... that is necessary. Whether he was "accepted" as a disciple isn't of importance at this stage, because he is still like you said, "very new". Like when a young girl is in love with a boy, she doesn't mind whether the boy likes her back, she is merely entangled in the wiles of very new or what I call "fresh love". That fresh love or early infatuation is, in the early stage, the only sustenance for itself, until it matures and develops into something more significant. I can disclose in my personal experience, I had a guru-infatuation for a long time and tried finding someone who could encourage me, but that didn't really happen. Instead, many people only preached to me about their own gurus. Someone even directly offered to initiate me, which honestly I thought was rather insulting. There was a lot more emphasis on initiation rather than the siksha relationship between guru/sisya, which I felt was empty and cheap. I felt as if I was getting no reciprocation. I became somewhat frustrated but mostly just heart broken. In the end I was very stubborn about my decision and my internal relationship with my spiritual master grew. I'm initiated now but I don't feel any "closer" after initiation than I did before, which I think is due to the internalised worship of guru. I recommend that. Thats my past experience, which I have drawn from to give Ian that piece of advise, but it is still only my opinion.

In defense of my statement, I want everyone to know I was simply joking about a much more serious issue. That is, guru-aparadha. "Start your own math... hahaha" isn't advice or a condescending remark. At most, he might realise that this mentality can be very dangerous and lead him down the path of the speculative slippey slope. This young man mentioned that his spiritual master is using Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's books for reading during lectures, that means to some extent Srila Narayan Maharaj is accepting them as valid translations, and for a disciple to dismiss it on the basis of intellectual appeal(really that is what this is about) is merely impudent and like someone else said, "arrogance". Maybe I should have made my comment a little more transparent, and I'm sorry if I came off as callous. My serious advice to this young man would be this, "Don't dismiss or spectulate about the spiritual master's decision, that is a very serious offense that you should very carefully guard against. Instead, ask him directly what his instructions regarding Srila Prabhupada's books are and avoid any spiritual hinderance whatsoever. Be honest and straight forward. Tell him your opinion and ask him if this is correct position, otherwise you are just speculating and you will find yourself ina spiritual grave." I don't want anyone to disregard the instructions(direct or indirect)of his guru because others are afraid of coming off as "BIBLE THUMPERS" In this regard, we should all be each others true well-wisher and correct each other in order advance in Krishna Consciousness. I would appreciate such a dear friend for reprimanding me in this way, that way I can rectify my wild and rebellious "independant" mentality. Also please forgive me anyone and everyone if I was offensive in my earlier comment; again, I hope this post has clarified that.

Sounds like you know better than your Guru, maybe you can also start your own math. You can call it Only-very-good-Krishna-katha-sanga Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga Jayatah! Hari Hari bol!

for starting this thread, it is really alleviating to the soul.

Ruben, do yourself a big favor and visit your local Hare Krishna temple if you have one. I'm sure that with sincerity and determination Krishna will provide you with a helpful and reassuring personal guide to help you on your journey for knowledge. That is all you need, look for someone who knows the scriptures and can teach them to you without fault or deviation. As far as pronunciation, that is not too important, with time you will become more fluent- the key is practice, practice practice. But, dont get carried away-pronunciation of mantras is good for show and only useful if you're going to be conducting elaborate ceremonies yourself! HAHA PS Don't worry so much about the elapsed time, as far as spiritual life is concerned, you will pick up right where you left off. I promise.

Srila Prabhupada never encouraged suicide, he mentions this along with several other things that can not be performed in Kali-yuga due to the general degradation of society. In previous ages, suicide(as a last resort) was viewed as a respectable and honorable option under certain extreme circumstances(when all other methods fail). In Kali-yuga everything is backward, upside-down or inside-out... violence doesn't solve dilemmas, the demonic leaders just become more violent and continue destroying the earth. Demoniac people take birth in the higher castes or classes of men, yet despite their sinful attachments and unscruplous methods they maintain great merit in society. In Kali-yuga, no one is qualified to observe the strict rules of brahmacharya, therefore the sannyas vow is discouraged. Men are not allowed to take more than one wife or marry their sister-in-law in case of his brothers death(this was common in previous yugas)...and so on and so forth... the list is much too long... There is just one point that I want to clarify: Srila Prabhupada was a great practical man, he didn't leave anything to chance, he got down to business and got things done. He wasn't a sentimentalist, never did he throw his arms up into the air and say, "OH, I give up". That is the kind of lazy mentality that everyone is associating with this topic, and that is not Srila Prabhupada's method and that is not the Hare Krishna method. Besides... we're not a "cult" so poisoned Kool-aid just doesn't fit into our M.O.