Svarupa

I don't accept the vaidity of the term "living guru." It implies there is something call a dead guru. One should consider using the term 'embodied guru' or something like that.

 

Vani was emphasised by Srila Prabhupada even when he carried a human form so why would vani be less important then vapu now? It makes no sense.

 

And what is it about vapuh that is so important? Hearing from the vapu is the most important thing and other things like serving his form etc. are there also. Serving the form, cleaning cothes, cooking etc. are transcendental activities butof them all hearing is most important.

 

The point is the most important thing about being in the associationof guru in vapu is the VANI that comes from his mouth. In every sense vani rules over vapuh in importance.

 

To think differently would mean you think you can take advantage of guru's vapuh by being in the same room with him, hearing him speak, and then ignoring his instructions. This is of course ludicrous.

 

People say they can't find guru and that only means they can't recognize guru when they see Him. How do we see Caitya guru? Through the verses in Bhagavad-gita and elsewhere where He is described. We see through the eyes of scripture.

 

So now that we can see Him in that way what do we do? We approach Caitya guru through prayer, "Please O'Lord guide me to You, help me recognize your Divine Self when you appear as guru and in the shastra. Please reveal Yourself to me in all the manifestations You have taken to enlighten mankind."

 

Start with Caitya guru. It is by the grace of Caitya guru that we recognize Him in human form. It is by His grace that we can see Him as he is in the verses of shastra and the instructions the spiritual masters left for us as they passed through this world.

 

If we hear from the lips of a devotee without the grace of Caitya guru we will never be able to understand what he says. If we hear the words of the devotee as tapes or books we will not be able to enter into the spiritual understanding they contain without the grace of Caitya guru.

 

Transcendental guru ultimately means Caitya guru who sometimes comes to us in one of His jiva forms. This is why we are told the perfect guru is to be accepted as God Himself because he indeed is the transparent via medium and Krsna's voice comes through him.

 

He may even have his relative side but it is the transcendental side we are most concerned with.

 

We don't accept guru as something apart from Krishna as in I'll accept guru now and later add Krishna to the equation. If we think like this we have not really accepted guru as he is but rather as we think him to be. This means we only have superficially accepted guru or it can be said we have not really accept guru yet.

 

Accepting guru is also a process. It is much more than offering a pledge of allegiance during a ceremony. If we think we have realized guru but are not yet Krishna conscious then we fool ourselves. Accepting guru and accepting Krishna is exactly the same process, and this process is known as diksa.

 

The word PROCESS cannot be emphasised enough IMO.

Interesting well thought out realizations. Someone who has been around as long as you can only see Prabhupada as there Guru. I understand that.

The changing face of faith in Melbourne</HEADLINE><!-- Insert Article Content -->

<SMALL>Religions </SMALL>

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• Barney Zwartz
  
• June 7, 2008

HINDUISM, Buddhism and Islam are Melbourne's fastest growing religions, but Catholicism remains the city's dominant faith.

An analysis of the 2006 census prepared for the city's church leaders also found that fewer people identify as Christians — down from 66% in 1996 to 59% a decade later.

The Christian Research Association's Philip Hughes says 32% identified as non-religious or did not say, while 13% declared they were atheists.

The fastest-growing faiths over the decade have been Hinduism (up 157% to 41,000), Buddhism (up 107% to 126,000) and Islam (up 62% to 103,000). There are 40,000 Jews, up 12.6%.

Melbourne has more than a million Catholics, up 7% over the decade to 2006. Pentecostals grew 36% to 30,000 and Baptists 10% to 51,000.

Dr Hughes found there was a move away from identifying with particular churches, but this wasn't always a movement to no religion. The "Christian, not further defined" category rose 79%.

A key finding of Dr Hughes' analysis, which draws on several other surveys as well as the census, is that agnostics tend to cope less well with personal crises than either religious people or atheists, and that the rise of individualism means people want to work out answers for themselves rather than accept an authority, religious or atheist.

"We are finding … that people who don't know what to believe about life and the world tend to have lower levels of resilience. They don't cope as well when the crises of life come, they have a weaker sense of purpose.

"The challenge for our society is to help people come to some sense of clarity about what life is about, whether humanistic or religious. Without that, people fall into the immediate, the here and now, and often that's a very consumeristic way of living."

Dr Hughes said that of the 712,000 (19.8%) who said they had no religion, 34% still believed in a higher being and 4% in a personal God, 22% did not know, and 40% were atheist.

"Other surveys suggest many people believe there's some sort of life force in the universe, some sort of creative power, but a personal God who came to us in Jesus doesn't make much sense to them," he said.

"Younger people, but even those in their 40s and 50s, are not going to just accept the authority of a community, whether atheist or religious. They want to work it out for themselves, but some feel they don't have the capacity to work it out."

Monash University demographer Bob Birrell said the figures reflected the changing nature of Australia's migration program.

"We're now drawing large numbers from the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent as well as east Asia, and as far as the no-religion side of the coin is concerned, they reflect the secular trend in Australian society," he said.

"We have two ends of the spectrum, that migration is fuelling the ranks of religious groups, and yet at the other end, the secular trends are diminishing the ranks of people committed to religious faith."

MUSLIM

Nisa Terzi, 19

BEING born and raised Muslim and being able to practise it freely in Australia, it's almost natural. Islam allows me to know my creator and it allows me to live in accordance with the standards that make me a good human being. And it teaches me to respect others because we're all God's creation, irrespective of faith, race and nationality. It helps me in a social way as well; it teaches me to be a contributing citizen to make Australia a better place. This is basically what my sacred text the Koran and Hadiths — (sayings and accounts of) the life of the Prophet — tell me to do and this is what I value most. It gives me a great sense of identity too. Who am I? I'm an Australian-born Muslim with a Turkish background.

HINDU

Adhiti Bhide, 21

IT'S difficult for me to pinpoint exactly where my religion fits into my life, because it's so densely intertwined into every aspect of my daily routine, whether it be just removing your shoes when you enter the house, or using only your right hand to give and receive gifts, or making an offering to the deities every time my mum cooks something sweet in the house. For me Hinduism focuses on fairly simple and basic values like respect and honesty and often I cannot even tell that I act a certain way because of my religion, or because that's all I've ever known.

JEWISH

Michael Shafar, 17

PERSONALLY, I am not a very devout or religious Jew so my religion appeals to me from a more traditional sense. My Judaism gives me a strong sense of connectedness with my parents and grandparents because Judaism is a very family-oriented religion and much emphasis is placed on promoting a strong family environment. Judaism also connects me to the Jewish community around the world, especially in Israel where I have family and to which I will always feel a strong connection.

CATHOLIC

James Whelan, 12

I JUST think you should treat others like you want to be treated. Being Catholic means that if something bad is going on I can pray, or just maybe be nice to that person or help them. Most Catholics feel a connection to God. We don't go to church every week, but I think it's a place where you just get a bit closer to God and Jesus. It's like their home. It's like reflecting. Praying is like taking a step forward and hoping that person does well, and hoping that something comes to them. I think God and Jesus taught us to do good things for others.

BUDDHIST

Sumudu Perera, 15

I WAS born into a Buddhist family, and since I was young I started going to the temple. But once I started getting older I started learning about it and making my own decisions. The good thing about Buddhism is it's a little bit of a religion but it's more like a philosophy. Buddhism gives you freedom to think, query and question, so it's more like a scientific approach. To me, it's better to believe in something after you've proved it than to just believe it as a faith, and that's what's really interesting to me about Buddhism.

Hare Krishna

A bona fide religion

from Karuppiah Chockalingam

The Hare Krishna movement came to the West only in 1965. It has, however, been accepted as a bona fide religious movement in India for over five thousand years. Two points:

How could a psychological technique developed in the 1970s be used to influence westerners to join in 1965?

Yes, Hare Krishna centres around the world do receive substantial quantities of money. But whatever is received is immediately utilised for maintenance of temples, distribution of food, and other projects to spread the message of the ancient Indian scriptures. I challenge you to find any active member of the Hare Krishna movement who possesses more than five or six cotton shawls and a set of beads, let alone a bank balance.

Karuppiah Chockalingam,

Box Hill North

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You see it is inherent in human nature to personally serve, associate and love someone you respect as a fine example of a great devotee. This is what Bhakti is.

Don’t get me wrong; it is alright to worship Prabhupada as the only Guru if one wants until such a living Guru reveals himself.

We must also develop the faith that Prabhupada will direct us to the good association of advanced living devotee ‘down the tract’ to 'instruct' us and initiate us into the parampara.

Here we go again with the living Guru doctrine. Prabhupada lives in his vani. He said so. His spiritual master said so. What's up with this church membership idea? That is religiosity pure and simple.

Some already are loving Prabhupada more than a living instructing Guru. That will be not only obvious but also natural because Prabhupada's books are who told us about Krishna.

Can’t argue with that logic. Therefore, if we keep worshiping Prabhupada, then eventually, due to the fact Guru is one in purpose and simultaniously within the heart representing Krishna, then we may down the tract, find some nice devotee association and be attracted to THEIR love also for Prabhupada.

You see it is inherent in human nature to love personally, associate and serve someone you respect as a fine example of a great devotee’. Don’t get me wrong; it is alright to worship Prabhupada as Guru.

However, we must also develop the faith that he may direct us to ‘the good association of advanced living devotee ‘down the tract’ to 'instruct' us and initiate us into the parampara.

It's very simple then. The Vaisnava I've learned the most from, the one who got me to practice sadhana would be - Prabhupada.

Problem solved.

Thats cool man however, a time will come when we will be sent a living Guru who stands for everything Prabhupada is. To love Prabhupada more than your living instructing Guru will be not only obvious but natural because he is who told us about Krishna.

That genuin love or bhakti will be recipticated with a living Guru eventually

I quess this is the Answer and those questions, only we can answer, I'm looking for a Guru but I also understand it's got a lot to do with me of how to find one, or him finding me. It's a difficult thing to comprehend, but thats part of the journey.

Maybe we shouldn't worry about why others have or have not a initiating Guru. Even with Prabhupada, some took initiation in the 60s to 72 after being in the Temple a few weeks, only to leave and never be seen again when 'My Sweet Lord' dropped out of the top 40. (In other words the guru thing was just a passing fad to many made famous by the Beatles, Ginsburg, LSD and a fasination of Indian religion and music)

See back then it was the 'in thing' to have a guru, it went with the peace, brown rice, love and flower power. So what about those young kids who took initiation off Prabhupada and left when the novelty wore off, were they genuin? Well they may of been when they met Prabhupada, but then they chose to fall back into Maya.

Actually no matter how pure or surrendered we are, that choice is always there and that's why so many aspiring devotees do leave after a few years of being tested to see if it is teally Krishna they want to serve. Some just stopped being sincere and forget how much they had previously struggled and suffered in the material world.

So it's just not being sincere when Guru finds us, we must stay sincere, protect our sincerity with the principles of Krishna Consciousness ALWAYS otherwise we simply fall away.

This is a very personally deep subject

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One of the best sites on the internet for Prabhupada and Iskcon freebies

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject:%22%20prabhupada%22

For example Complete Srila Prabhupada Photo Archive (19.494 pictures in total) for DOWNLOAD

 

I do not see a single line in your post showing support from Vyasa for such a concept.

Hey Einstein, put on your glasses on and have another look, just in case you still cannot see the link -

Here is another thread also -

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/446399-fall-verses-padma-purana-2.html

 

The following is a summary of the characteristics of the spiritual master which are listed in Hari Bhakti Vilasa:

He should be knowledgeable of the Vedas and know the conclusions of

the scriptures.

He should be absorbed in worship of the Lord by chanting of the Lord's

name.

He should be peaceful, fully satisfied in activities of devotional

service.

He should have deep faith in the Lord.

He should exhibit all good qualities.

He should be intelligent, steady, austere, and truthful.

He should be sweet in speech, pleasant to look at, clean,

youthful-looking, wearing clean cloth.

He should be expert in conducting himself as a saintly person,

(sad-acara).

He should be expert at arguing with and defeating those opposed to

devotional service.

He should be an expert judge.

He should feel gratitude for services rendered to him.

He should be capable of both showing favor to and reprimanding

another person.

He should feel affection for his disciples.

He should always be anxious for the welfare of all living beings.

He should be completely free from envy, malice, violence, anger,

laziness, sinful activity.

The spiritual master should not possess the following characteristics:

He should not desire wealth, fame, or service from his disciples.

He should not have a desire for accumulating material objects.

He should not be attached to receiving things or hesitant to give

things.

He should not delay in making decisions, which must be made.

He should not eat too much.

He should not be prone to lying.

He should not be critical of the good qualities of others.

He should not absorb himself in talking about the sinful activities of

others.

He should not associate with low characters (people who take

intoxication and indulge in illicit sex or criminal activities).

He should not involve himself in useless philosophies and material

logic.

The following is a summary of the characteristics of a true disciple,

as found in Hari Bhakti Vilasa:

He should be truthful.

He should be gentle and polite.

He should be pleasing to look at.

He should be spotless in conduct.

He should be intelligent.

He should be in control of his senses.

He should show proper respect to elders, to initiated Vaisnavas and to

the Lord.

He should observe silence concerning material subjects.

He should have not attraction for committing sinful activities.

He should be desirous of knowing the absolute truth.

He should be devoted to the lotus feet of guru.

He should be engaged day and night in the Lord's service with body,

mind and words.

He should be fully capable of upholding vows made to the spiritual

master.

The true disciple should not possess the following characteristics:

He should not be lazy, lay back, secretive and aloof.

He should not be dirty, or sickly.

He should not be continually afflicted or lamenting.

He should not be angry, proud, or lusty.

He should not covet material desires.

He should not show the enjoying spirit.

He should not be miserly, malicious, devious, or envious.

He should not give pain to others or be addicted to cruel activities.

He should not use vulgar or coarse language.

He should not indulge in illicit sex.

He should not be constantly critical of others.

He should not earn his living by unjust means.

He should not be proud of material learning.

He should not be ignorant.

He should not indulge in other philosophies.

He should not be addicted to overeating.

He should not indulge in sinful activities such as taking meat,

intoxication, gambling or illicit sex.

The person who cannot give up his bad habits and cannot follow the instructions of guru is not qualified as a disciple.

Though a person may be devoid of the qualities mentioned above, if he is devoted to guru and the Supreme Lord, he can become purified and eventually become a suitable candidate for initiation through performance of devotional activities.

 

How did we ALL come to the material world

 

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It is interesting to understand that when Jaya and Vijaya became demons for three births, they were still Jaya and Vijaya and remained there in Vaikuntha within the ‘eternal present’ while their secondary self-manifestation came here to the material world to act like demons.

This does not mean their fall was not a real experience because it was, they really believed they were demons but on return to Vaikuntha their departure was no more than a moment.

 

If one can understand the eternal presents of Vaikuntha and the divided time of past, present, and future in the material world, then one can understand, by dent of bhakti and the teaching of Srila Prabhupada, how this works

Jaya and Vijaya, as well as ever other jiva tattva in Goloka, can have numerous forms, just as Yasoda has limitless forms, and just as Krsna has so many forms in Vaikuntha, in Dvaraka, and here and there. There are lakhs of universes in the mahat-tattva also, in each cosmos, there is one Vrndavana, and Krsna is there in Vrndavana.

We cannot visualize this. An individual may be capable to calculate the stars in the sky or the sands on the earth, but he or she will not be able to praise the charming pastimes of Krsna.

It is a fact that the jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana in the same way as Jaya and Vijaya did, not as their eternal Svarupa body but as a secondary manifestation that ALL marginal living entities can activate if they choose to enter the material mahat-tattva.

Any liberated soul can also come with Krsna to assist in His pastimes, as Sridama and Subala do. Krsna sends them here only to help the rebellious baddha-jivas return back to their original position in Goloka and again re-establish and regain the memory of who they really are which is their eternal nitya-siddha body.

We are all everlastingly Krsna dasa, servants of Krsna, but now we have forgotten Krsna. The jiva can forget Krsna, so what does this actually mean?

It means that the jiva’s, now in the material world in their secondary manifestation, were once ‘aware’ they were serving Krsna. Actually, they still are, but have fallen out of sync with the ‘eternal present’ where their true eternal bodily form perpetually exists always engaged in Krsna's service, but now one has forgotten that service.

Some incorrectly say, due to them not understanding the concept of the ‘eternal present’, that, “Actually, this is not true, this is not how the jiva enters the material world, by coming down from Goloka as a secondary manifestation of their consciousness”. However, we now understand that this is exactly how the small minority of marginal living entities, enter the material world. Therefore their ideas and the proper understanding of tatastha-s'akti is not fully developed

Srila Prabhupada has told us that the vast majority of jiva-tattva’s never come to the material world in a secondary consciousness manifestation (baddha-jiva) to exploit the material energy.

The majority of marginal living entities always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always endeavour to please Bhagavan, and are always favourable to Him. By virtue of the divine sakti, they have the potency to stay permanently ‘aware, awake, alert’ of their eternal nitya-siddha bodily form and their loyalty and service to Krsna.

In fact, they have no connection with the material energy whatsoever, in effect, they are oblivious, due to their choice to always serve Krsna, that there is even a deluding influence called Maya, and thus most jivas NEVER come under Her enchantment because they are always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord.

So it is in this way they are eternally liberated (Always aware they are nitya-siddha) and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is Bhakti only, and they are not even cognizant to melancholy, death or fear."

Since ALL living reside in the spiritual world of eternal presents in their full devotional potential, devoid of any past or future, Maya stays far from them and does not affect them at all because she has no power in Vaikuntha or Goloka.

It is only when those minorities of jivas choose to forget Krishna and the svarupa nitya-siddha body they serve Krsna as, do they enter Maha-Vishnu’s temporary material world and come under the influence and temptations of His wife, Maya Devi.

Vyasadeva, who compiled the Puranas, has presented slokas about patanam (falldown), so has Bhaktivinode Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura mentioned fall and no fall of the jiva.

Srila Prabhupada has quoted Srimad Bhagavatam to stress the point about freewill causing the jiva to fall, so one cannot say that ISKCON devotees are the only ones who have spoken of the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha and Goloka.

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2671.htm

Sleeper-vada:

I am nitya-siddha, you are nitya-siddha, we are all nitya-siddha. Why do I not feel like a nitya-siddha now? because you just don't know you are a nitya-siddha.

 

Maya-vada:

I am God, you are God, we are all God. Why do I not feel like God now? because you just don't know you are God.

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Srila Prabhupada -"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

Srila Prabhupada -"The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krsna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

Srila Prabhupada -"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70.

Where Do the Fallen Souls Fall From?

• Philosophy and spirituality
  
• On learning that the material world is not our real home,
  we naturally wonder, “How did we get here?”

by Jayadvaita Swami

When we hear that we live in this material world because we are “fallen souls,” it’s natural for us to ask, “Where have we fallen from?”

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean?

Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it.

As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down.

That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected. “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, three generations before Srila Prabhupada in the line of spiritual teachers, put it this way: “Please avoid the misleading question ‘When were these jivas [living beings] created and enthralled?’

The Mayik time has no existence in spiritual history, because it has its commencement after the enthrallment of jivas, and you cannot, therefore, employ Mayik chronology in matters like these.”

Here, then, is how Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall and leave it.

“Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.”

“Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.”

In another letter, Srila Prabhupada gave further insights. “We are always with Krishna. Where is Krishna not present?” But “when we forget this fact we are far, far away from Him.

In the Isopanisad it is clearly stated, tad dure tad v antike: ‘He is very far away, but He is very near as well.’ (Isopanisad, Mantra Five). So this forgetfulness is our falldown. It can take place at any moment, and we can counteract this forgetfulness immediately by rising to the platform of Krishna consciousness.”

Our relationship with Krishna is never lost, Srila Prabhupada said. “Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya. So it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of Krishna, and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position.

The relationship of the living entity with Krishna is eternal, as both Krishna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.”

In still another letter, Srila Prabhupada restated this in yet another way: “We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world, or maya.”

But when we chant the Hare Krishna mantra sincerely and without offense, our original Krishna consciousness is at once revived.

“So naturally everything about Krishna is originally known to us all, and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His holy name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krishna in different ways.”

Our separation from Krishna, Srila Prabhupada taught, is like a dream. We dream, “I am this body,” and we dream of happiness in material relationships.

This dreaming condition is our non-liberated state. But although this state of dreaming may seem to last for lifetimes, as soon as we become Krishna conscious we awaken, and the dream at once disappears.

“After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila [pastimes] of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, like dreaming.”

Ultimately, Srila Prabhupada would stress, puzzling over when we fell or where we fell from won’t solve our problem. “The conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krishna consciousness and immediately join Krishna.”

Again: “One should know he is in conditioned life and try to cure it… . Forgetfulness of Krishna is the disease, so let us keep ourselves always in Krishna consciousness and get out of the disease. That is healthy life.”

Still again:

“Rather than taking account of how things happened that [we] came here, our best occupation is to get out of the scene by constantly chanting Hare Krishna and being engaged in the transcendental service of Lord Krishna.”

The advice is clear enough. But still the intellect hangs on, trying to figure out what can’t be figured out. So we delve into books to find out what was taught by other great acaryas (spiritual teachers) of the past. And what do we find?

Different teachers—all Krishna conscious—seem to express different views. So then what? We take sides with one view or another, or simply become confused. Our mental circuits start to burn out.

Srila Prabhupada’s spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, therefore gave this advice. We should avoid, he said,

“vain empirical wranglings,” which he called “false and full of specious verbosity.”

He reminds us, “What the unalloyed devotee of the Supreme Lord says is all true and is independent of any consideration of unwholesome pros and cons.”

When such pure devotees disagree, he says, there is “the element of mystery in their verbal controversies.”

And “those whose judgment is made of mundane stuff” can’t “enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees.” Lacking pure devotion, such people “are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views.”

Therefore, he counsels, whenever such disputes arise about the pastimes of the Lord, we should remember what was taught by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His associates the Gosvamis, “that the Truth Absolute is ever characterized by spiritual variegatedness that transcends the variegatedness of mundane phenomena; but He is never featureless.”

The Mahabharata tells us that we can’t know the truth simply by logic and arguments (tarko ‘pratistah). Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet: “There’s no use arguing over that which is inconceivable.” After all, it’s inconceivable.

Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, one of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers, respected for his deep philosophical realization, used to stress the same point, one of his followers told us.

Repeatedly asked about where the living beings fell from, Srila Sridhara Maharaja grew weary of the question. “Why do you always ask about the most difficult thing to understand?” he once responded. “Why not try to understand the most easy thing?” That is: how to become Krishna conscious and go back to Godhead.

Pure devotees of Krishna avoid endless arguments. Such devotees know that such arguments are merely another distraction offered by maya. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (6.4.31):

“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the all-pervading Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has unlimited transcendental qualities. Acting from within the cores of the hearts of all philosophers, who propagate various views, He makes them forget their own souls while sometimes agreeing and sometimes disagreeing among themselves.

Thus He creates within this material world a situation in which they are unable to come to a conclusion. I offer my obeisances unto Him.”

Therefore, the student in transcendental science is best advised to simply accept what has been accepted by his own bona fide Krishna conscious acarya, or spiritual master.

As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says, “It is a great offense to disrespect the acarya and to seek to establish a different doctrine in opposition to him.”

To illustrate the uselessness of arguing about where the soul fell from, Srila Prabhupada once gave the example of the crow and the fruit of an Indian palm, the tal fruit. On the top of a tree was a nice tal fruit.

A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some learned scholars saw this and began discussing. The fruit fell because the crow shook the limb, one said. No, said another, as the crow was landing the fruit happened to fall. This frightened the crow, so the crow flew away. No, said a third, the fruit was ripe, and the weight of the crow’s landing broke the fruit from the branch… .

“What is the use of such discussion?” Srila Prabhupada said.

Whether we came from Krishna’s pastimes or from some other spiritual source, Srila Prabhupada said, “at the present you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [to Krishna], never mind what is your origin.”

“At the present moment you are in maya’s clutches,” he wrote, “so our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back to home, back to Godhead.”

Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic, Srila Prabhupada advised. “Now the fruit is there. Take it and enjoy.”

NOTE: The letters from Srila Prabhupada quoted in this article appear at greater length in Srila Prabhupada Siksamrta, Volume Two, pages 1157–1176.

The quotations from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura come from his commentary on Sri Brahma-samhita. The quotation from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura comes from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu—His Life and Precepts.

Srila Prabhupada has told us that the vast majority of jiva-tattva’s never come to the material world in a secondary consciousness manifestation (baddha-jiva) to exploit the material energy.

The majority of marginal living entities always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always endeavour to please Bhagavan, and are always favourable to Him. By virtue of the divine sakti, they have the potency to stay permanently ‘aware, awake, alert’ of their eternal nitya-siddha bodily form and their loyalty and service to Krsna.

In fact, they have no connection with the material energy whatsoever, in effect, they are oblivious, due to their choice to always serve Krsna, that there is even a deluding influence called Maya, and thus most jivas NEVER come under Her enchantment because they are always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord.

This is a very intereseting point to comprehend

Chapter 8, Verse 5.

And whoever, at the time of death, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.

Chapter 8, Verse 6.

Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail.

Chapter 8, Verse 7.

Therefore, Arjuna, you should always think of Me in the form of Krsna and at the same time carry out your prescribed duty of fighting. With your activities dedicated to Me and your mind and intelligence fixed on Me, you will attain Me without doubt.

Without chanting offenselessly, one cannot properly advance in Krsna consciousness:

One should know for certain that without chanting the holy name of the Lord offenselessly, one cannot be a proper candidate for advancement in Krsna consciousness.

¯The Nectar of Instruction Text 5

If one commits offenses against the holy name, he will not achieve attachment for chanting:

[Lord Caitanya to Svarupa Damodara and Ramananda Raya]:

"…My dear Lord, although You bestow such mercy upon the fallen conditioned souls by liberally teaching Your holy names, I am so unfortunate that I commit offenses while chanting the holy name, and therefore I do not achieve attachment for chanting."

¯Sri Caitanya−caritamrta Antya−lila 20.16

If one chants the holy name offensively, one does not achieve love for the Supreme Lord:

If one chants the exalted holy name of the Lord again and again and yet his love for the Supreme Lord does not develop and tears do not appear in his eyes, it is evident that because of his offenses in chanting, the seed of the holy name of Krsna does not sprout.

¯Sri Caitanya−caritamrta Adi−lila 8.29−3

If one chants with offenses, even many lifetimes of chanting will not bring him love of Godhead:

If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha−mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead which is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati thakura says in this connection that unless one accepts Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, although one goes on chanting the Hare Krsna mantra for many, many years, there is no possibility of his attaining the platform of devotional service. One must follow strictly the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu given in the Siksastaka:

trnad api sunicena taror iva sahisnuna

amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada harih

[Cc. adi 17.31]

"One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street; one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and should be ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly." (Siksastaka 3)

One who follows this direction, being freed from the ten kinds of offenses, becomes successful in Krsna consciousness and ultimately reaches the platform of loving service to the Personality of Godhead.

¯Sri Caitanya−caritamrta Adi 8.16

Wednesday, June 4, 2008

ATL-08-06-04, Hari Sauri Dasa, Srila Prabhpada Nectar - Morning Class

Listen to the Srila Prabhupada Nectar given by Hari Sauri Dasa on June 3, 2008 at the Hare Krishna Temple in Alachua, Florida. Brought to you by Krishna.com.

Posted by seva at <A class=timestamp-link title="permanent link" href="http://alachuatemplelive.blogspot.com/2008/06/atl-08-06-04-hari-sauri-dasa-srila.html" rel=bookmark><ABBR class=published title=2008-06-04T06:24:00-07:00>6:24 AM</ABBR>

ATL-08-06-03, Hari Sauri Dasa, Srila Prabhpada Nectar - Preserving the Archves

Listen to the Srila Prabhupada Nectar and the importance of archiving Prabhupada's life and teachings given by Hari Sauri Dasa on June 3, 2008 at the Hare Krishna Temple in Alachua, Florida. Brought to you by Krishna.com.

Posted by seva at <A class=timestamp-link title="permanent link" href="http://alachuatemplelive.blogspot.com/2008/06/atl-08-06-03-hari-sauri-dasa-srila_04.html" rel=bookmark><ABBR class=published title=2008-06-04T04:50:00-07:00>4:50 AM</ABBR>

Tuesday, June 3, 2008

ATL-08-06-03, Hari Sauri Dasa, Srila Prabhpada Nectar - Morning Class

Listen to the Srila Prabhupada Nectar given by Hari Sauri Dasa on June 3, 2008 at the Hare Krishna Temple in Alachua, Florida. Brought to you by Krishna.com.

Posted by seva at <A class=timestamp-link title="permanent link" href="http://alachuatemplelive.blogspot.com/2008/06/atl-08-06-03-hari-sauri-dasa-srila_03.html" rel=bookmark><ABBR class=published title=2008-06-03T06:25:00-07:00>6:25 AM</ABBR>

ATL-08-06-02 Hari Sauri Dasa, Srila Prabhpada Nectar - Evening Class

Listen to the Srila Prabhupada Nectar given by Hari Sauri Dasa on June 2, 2008 at the Hare Krishna Temple in Alachua, Florida. Brought to you by Krishna.com.

Posted by seva at <A class=timestamp-link title="permanent link" href="http://alachuatemplelive.blogspot.com/2008/06/atl-08-06-03-hari-sauri-dasa-srila.html" rel=bookmark><ABBR class=published title=2008-06-03T06:19:00-07:00>6:19 AM</ABBR>

Monday, June 2, 2008

ATL-08-06-02, Hari Sauri Dasa, Srila Prabhpada Nectar - Morning Class

Listen to Srila Prabhupada Nectar by Hari Sauri Dasa on June 2, 2008 at the Hare Krishna Temple in Alachua, Florida. Brought to you by Krishna.com.

Posted by seva at <A class=timestamp-link title="permanent link" href="http://alachuatemplelive.blogspot.com/2008/06/atl-08-06-02-hari-sauri-dasa-srila.html" rel=bookmark><ABBR class=published title=2008-06-02T06:27:00-07:00>6:27 AM</ABBR>

Sunday, June 1, 2008

ATL-08-06-01, Hari Sauri Dasa, Sunday Feast Lecture

Listen to the Sunday Feast Lecture by Hari Sauri Dasa on June 1, 2008 at the Hare Krishna Temple in Alachua, Florida. Brought to you by Krishna.com.

Posted by seva at <A class=timestamp-link title="permanent link" href="http://alachuatemplelive.blogspot.com/2008/06/atl-08-06-01-hari-sauri-dasa-sunday.html" rel=bookmark><ABBR class=published title=2008-06-01T15:16:00-07:00>3:16 PM</ABBR>

Saturday, May 31, 2008

ATL-08-05-31, Madana Mohana Dasa, CC-Adi, 17: 1

Listen to Madan Mohan Dasa's lecture on text 1 of the Sri Caitanya Caritamrta), Adi-Lila, chapter 16, entitled "The Pastimes of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His Youth," given on May 31, 2008, at the Hare Krishna temple in Alachua,Florida. The Sri Caitanya Caritamrta is a sacred Vaishnava text from India narrating the history of Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His devotees, and was translated with elaborate purports by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Sri Caitanya Caritamrta is available from Krishna.com.

"‘In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari.'

Narayana Maharaj and Sridar Maharaj, regardless of THEIR belief we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, their goals are to serve Krishna, so regardless of where they believe we came from, they are great devotees of Lord Krsna because that is who they serve.

 

I have understood on this forum, along with recent debates I have had in Vrndavana, that there are two types of devotees in this philosophical regard,

 

1. Those who believe we came from Goloka,

 

2. And those who believe we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

And that will never change while we are in the mundane world of past, present and future.

 

The good point about both camps is service to Lord Caitanya and that they often will come together for the greater purpose of preaching and Sankirtan, with the higher goal in mind of getting ALL the fallen souls to return back home back to Godhead

'Try to understand work together', as Prabhupada would say.

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In this way Srila Prabhupada is CLEARLY saying and is explaining the essence of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, that ALL nitya siddha’s can be covered over and ONLY the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddha, just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds.

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

The secret of understanding this is also found in realizing what the ‘ETERNAL PRESENT’ is in the face of divided material time of PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. Thus, it is important to understand that ones ‘AWARENESS’ can be in EITHER Krsnaloka or the maha-tattva AT ONE TIME ONLY and NEVER both at the same time however, the paradox is, even when ones ‘awareness’ is in the mahat-tattva as the baddha-jiva, ones perpetual nitya-siddha body is secured and protected eternally within the eternal presents of Krsnaloka

In fact most devotees in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha be covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious dream state.

Therefore, most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Theist when he was a cute baby

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<CENTER>Chapter 9. The Most Confidential Knowledge</CENTER>

 

TEXT 2

 

 

 

 

 

raja-vidya raja-guhyam

pavitram idam uttamam

pratyaksavagamam dharmyam

su-sukham kartum avyayam

SYNONYMS

raja-vidya--the king of education; raja-guhyam--the king of confidential knowledge; pavitram--the purest; idam--this; uttamam--transcendental; pratyaksa--directly experienced; avagamam--understood; dharmyam--the principle of religion; su-sukham--very happy; kartum--to execute; avyayam--everlasting.

 

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed. j

 

 

Prabhupada in Melbourne Australia 1974

Now is ALWAYS the time for the REAL ISKCON of dedicated devotees— that is, for all Srila Prabhupada followers — to reach out, to listen, and to connect with those who were emotional, psychological, and physical abused in ISKCON’s past. It is an on going healing process based on selfless honest, caring Krishna Consciousness

So many good devotees with so much training are just ignored and treated terribly by so many ‘claiming to be devotees in ISKCON’ and especially by some of the arrogent GBC.

 

I believe devotees like Ravindrasvarupa prabhu (GBC member) are trying to advance the maturity of ISKCON with his wonderful lectures and writings, but still so many with so numerous talents, who were trained for years in ISKCON, are just treated badly and ignored

What a waste

I think there should be an determined effort to at least look up all past devotees and try and bring them back to Prabhupada's ISKCON, now that the movement is maturing beyond childish grudges and revenge, on all sides.

For this to succeessfully happen, some ISKCON authorities and devotees have to Spiritually grow up and see the entire world as potentially ISKCON. Isn't this what Prabhupada wanted?

And if the present version of ISKCON do not reach out in a non sectarian way, then it is their loss, someone else with another branch of Lord Caitanya's tree of devotees will come, who are more more genuin and humble, devoid of the present intense mood of puffed-up pride and arrogence, thinking they have the sole ownership over 'Hare Krishna'

Such conceit has only polluted and stagnated so many of ISKCON's present leadership.

If such actions, words, deeds and especially body language keeps demanding respect and obedience, instead of commanding respect with selfless, unconditional humility and compassion, then someone else will come along and fulfill the prophecy of Lord Caitanya

Letter to President of United States — Los Angeles 28 June, 1972

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Letters, 1972

The President

The White House

Washington, D.C. 20025

My dear Mr. President:

Several thousand years ago a great pious emperor ruled over this planet. He was a descendant of the great Kuru dynasty and the grandson of Arjuna, the hero of the Bhagavad-gita and the personal associate of the Lord, Sri Krishna.

The people lived under his domain in peace. He provided protection for the people and the cows, as well as all other living entities. He engaged many brahmanas, spiritual leaders, to educate his people and advise him in all matters. The people were just and God-conscious. They had a good understanding of the meaning and purpose of life and lived in happiness and prosperity. They respected their emperor and received kindness and benedictions from him.

You are a great president of a great nation. In this age of unrest and quarrel, your strength, as well as the strength of your nation, will be lasting if it is built upon the pillars of spiritual knowledge and Absolute Truth.

I am seventy-six years of age and am in the renounced order of life. I came to this country from India six years ago to introduce Krishna Consciousness, the scientific process of spiritual life, to the English-speaking people of the Western world.

Now by the grace of Krishna I have many thousands of disciples, young American and European boys and girls. Many of them have come to me bewildered, rebellious, and addicted to all sorts of sinful activities.

Like so many of the young people today, they were lost and confused. Now they are all leading a disciplined and regulated life. They follow strict principles of spiritual life, with no desire for intoxication of any kind, or illicit sex life. They are always engaged in meaningful work, serving God and their fellow man. They have become the flower of your country and all over the world they are being treated with the highest respect.

I would humbly like to request an interview with you to discuss the possibilities of my providing further service. My disciple, Atreya Rsi das (Mr. Marz Attar of Arthur Young and Company, 277 Park Avenue, New York, N. Y., phone 212-922-5957) will assist your aides to arrange a suitable time and place for a meeting.

I hope this meets you in best of health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Letters, 1972