madhav

>>The similarities are very superficial and there really is no need to draw a comparison. Maybe some people think Hinduism will appear more scientific if we draw parallels to modern scientific theories, but it is really unnecessary, especially when they are not closely related. << - jn das urdhva mUlahm adhah shAkham ashvattha prahuravyam... - Gita 15.1 the material world is a reflection of the spiritual world. so, the spiritual laws are reflected as the material (scientific) laws in material world. reflections have distortions also. This is not written to make Hinduism 'appear' scientific. the fact is Hinduism (sanatana dharma) IS most scientific. Most HK's were hippies, without any education of science or mathematics. Additionally, prabhupada spoke bad for all the scientist, rather than the atheist scientists. Consequently, most Hk's hate scientists, and it should not be so. However, if A want to hate B, no one an stop A. A scientists tries to find truth by a method called bottom-up. A devotee tried to find truth by top-down. Both seek truth. Why? because it could help solve problems people have. (The material world however is such that if you solve one problem, it would create new problems.) Let me clarify what a scientist is. He has interest to study nature and figure how it works. He observes, and theorizes a phenomena. Then he scientifically makes experiments to see if his experimental observations match what is predicted by his theory. If it does, then he declares it to the world and asks other scientists to challenge the hypothesis, analytically, mathematically and experimentally. When no one at the time can prove it is false, then the theory is valid for the time and is useful to predict how nature works. Now this knowledge discovered by scientists is used by engineers to solve problems of the world. Engineer does not know how to make a formula, but he knows how to use it. In the world there are all kinds of people who have variety or demands for services and goods. Engineers can provide these services and goods working as self employed or as an employee of a company. Goverments of the world have largest demand for scientists and engineers. Defense departments need superior weapons. No govt. can survive without weapons. HKs are safe because there is police and military who use weapons. No society can be safe without kshatriyas, and ksnatriyas need weapons. Therefore, they need scientists and engineers. So, tt is not fair to slander them all. Those who are atheists and who cheat by their manipulated experimetns and measurements or conclusions only are bad, but not all. I also believe that most Hindu scientists from India are theists. So, when some one sees similarities between matirial and spiritual laws, then he certainly he can talk about it. So, the inquirey is not artificial for any mean purpose, but is an observation.

>>The similarities are very superficial and there really is no need to draw a comparison. Maybe some people think Hinduism will appear more scientific if we draw parallels to modern scientific theories, but it is really unnecessary, especially when they are not closely related. << - jn das urdhva mUlahm adhah shAkham ashvattha prahuravyam... - Gita 15.1 the material world is a reflection of the spiritual world. so, the spiritual laws are reflected as the material (scientific) laws in material world. reflections have distortions also. This is not written to make Hinduism 'appear' scientific. the fact is Hinduism (sanatana dharma) IS most scientific. Most HK's were hippies, without any education of science or mathematics. Additionally, prabhupada spoke bad for all the scientist, rather than the atheist scientists. Consequently, most Hk's hate scientists, and it should not be so. However, if A want to hate B, no one an stop A. A scientists tries to find truth by a method called bottom-up. A devotee tried to find truth by top-down. Both seek truth. Why? because it could help solve problems people have. (The material world however is such that if you solve one problem, it would create new problems.) Let me clarify what a scientist is. He has interest to study nature and figure how it works. He observes, and theorizes a phenomena. Then he scientifically makes experiments to see if his experimental observations match what is predicted by his theory. If it does, then he declares it to the world and asks other scientists to challenge the hypothesis, analytically, mathematically and experimentally. When no one at the time can prove it is false, then the theory is valid for the time and is useful to predict how nature works. Now this knowledge discovered by scientists is used by engineers to solve problems of the world. Engineer does not know how to make a formula, but he knows how to use it. In the world there are all kinds of people who have variety or demands for services and goods. Engineers can provide these services and goods working as self employed or as an employee of a company. Goverments of the world have largest demand for scientists and engineers. Defense departments need superior weapons. No govt. can survive without weapons. HKs are safe because there is police and military who use weapons. No society can be safe without kshatriyas, and ksnatriyas need weapons. Therefore, they need scientists and engineers. So, tt is not fair to slander them all. Those who are atheists and who cheat by their manipulated experimetns and measurements or conclusions only are bad, but not all. I also believe that most Hindu scientists from India are theists. So, when some one sees similarities between matirial and spiritual laws, then he certainly he can talk about it. So, the inquirey is not artificial for any mean purpose, but is an observation.

>>As far as science, it cannot even prove your existence to me, what to speak of God's. As far as I can tell, I am the only conscious living entity in existence, and everything else is just an unconscious projection of my mind - something like a dream. << -jn das any one who thinks like this, i would say him this: what is the use of consciousness if it cannot perceove truth? if you think everything is dream, then it is not real. so if you jump from 3rd floor terrace, it is dream and cannot hurt. would you try it? whenyou drive and see red light. it is just a dream. cwould you keep goingin red light? my point is: god did not give consciousness to us to 'dream' but to see truth as it is, so that we can decide what good action we an take. however all truth cannot be found easily. it requires sharp intelligence and god's help. tatva darshi can see truth. (upadekshyanti te gyanam gyaninas tatva darsina).

so you doubt about krishna being god. no one an figure god fully. when he came, i think pandavas/ parikshit reluled almost whole world. over time, othe religions came up and took over distant lands from bharat. recently the hindus foolishly lost pak and BDesh in 1947. still, thanks to hindu aacharyas like Pabhupada, K C is spread all over the world. when you feel krishna is not god, then why you worryy about K C (vaishnavism) not spread all over the world?

in vartal sect of swaminarayan one who is in direct blood relation with sahajananda's brother, he only can become a guru. then there another set where one collected large sum of donation from africa while he was in one sect, and then took that money himself and built a institute where girls can learn some insudtry. he made a separate sect. thus there are 3-4 such sects within.

i think he wants people to wake up. suppose many hindus just stand in large numebrs around the gov. decision makers. anf block their ways and residences. just stand. if some go after a day or half, more could come to stand. also chant while standing. or carry temple construction material and walk there.

for every action, there is reaction. when a bullet move forward, it pushed the gun backwards. similary when yuu do some karma, there is a reaction to karma, generally. however, if a karma is done for to please krishna only, then there is no bad reaction. that karna has no reaction. "karmanye va dhikarast maaphaleshu kadaachana" there are similariteis between spiritual am material laws. sky is every where, so is god. sky is not a person or consciousness, god is.

for every action, there is reaction. when a bullet move forward, it pushed the gun backwards. similary when yuu do some karma, there is a reaction to karma, generally. however, if a karma is done for to please krishna only, then there is no bad reaction. that karna has no reaction. "karmanye va dhikarast maaphaleshu kadaachana" there are similariteis between spiritual am material laws. sky is every where, so is god. sky is not a person or consciousness, god is.

Dear Guest, Thank for putting this nice article here. Just like radhanath swami said, most hindus respect and follow thie gurus(if they hae chosen one), but respect all other gurus/swamis. india is such a counry that it has produced may spiritual giants. sri ptabhupda is one, but on the only one. so, the message in the article is very good. besides, every one does not need a "great" guru just like every one does not need a math professor to learn math because some are in grade I and some are in grade II, III, etc. only those who are at MS level need a professor of math. same for spiritual gurus.

Sri Prabhupada said, "One should clearly understand that the Krishna consciousness movement is not preaching the so-called Hindu religion." Yes, he did not preach "so-called" hinduism, meaning malpracticed hinduism. He preached a major part of Hinduism known as vaishnavism. Therefore, i also tell the hindus to do krishna bhakti as he preached. i know, many hindus feel that if Sri Prabhupad had said the following, it would have been a lot better for both the parties. "i am preching vaishnavism, a major part of Hinduism. However, i am preaching it in its pure form as given in the scriptures and not as malpracticed by some hindus. many hindus are malpraticing hinduism and i wish they do practice it correctly." for whatever reason he did not say so unfortunately, but there is no reason to contiune it. if gurus, sadhus, and shastras are accepted as the checks and balance system even by him, them this check must be done on this matter and misrepresentation (even for good cause at that time) could be corrected now by the authority of gurus, sadhus, and shastras. Sri Prabhupada would be happy if his followers do it, rather than just lock their minds and throw away facts and rational conclusion just as bin laden and his party do blindly. Dear JN das prabhu, i am just a strager here without any voice. you may lock the thread if that solves the problem, but i wish you will not delete it. people need to read and think about the issue. i see no loss if the issue is corrected by the current KC preachers. a bettre approach i think is to keep good posts and delete not so good ones. however, you are the conroller serving krishna.

i am surprised no one really said much why garlic and onions need to be avoided. they are some of the strong tamasic foods. such foods increase tamo guna, the mdoe of ignorance. it makes you sleepy and lazy. krishna describes tamo guna in gita. a krishna devotee or aishnava want to rise from tamas to rarjas to satva guna and ultimately wants to go beyound the conrol of the gunas. that is why they choose satvic foods and avoid rajasic or tamasic foods. now let me give some commets on the previous posts's lines: >>Actually according to iskcon, you are not the body. << iskcon is not eternal, vaishnavism is. until one realizes one is the soul within the body and eternal servant of Krishna, and acts always according to that fact, one has some false ego. to get rid of false ego is not that easy. for one to pretend that one is free from false ego is not good either. >>Therefore, technically speaking, eating garlic and onions cannot affect you in anyway ! << it affacts in that it makes difficult to progress to higher gunas from tamas which no one really wants. >>Besides, according to theist, everyone is a Vaishnava, no_matter_what. For more details, you may want to get in touch with him.<< if so, then the hindus also are vaishnavas. so then no Hk needs to say "they are not HIndus." Vaishnav means worshipper of Vishnu (Krishna). we know that there are worshippers of shiva, durga, sun, ganesh also. they all are hindus, but not vaishnavas. >>Anway, I recommend eating a lot of garlic and onion. Eat more than you feel like and I can assure you that you will lose your craving very soon. Once you lose the craving, your problem is solved. This technique will work for any food item that you wish to discontinue (except for tobacco and alcohol, of course).<< yes, it works, but for a small time only, may be a day or two. to develop taste for satvic foods is the best way. vaishnava is one who has chosen the path of vaishnavism to reach Krishna. he/she may progress and fail many times. but he should try alwasy to progress more. so, as long as one does not give up that path of vaishnavism, he does not become a non-vaishnav just because he ate some foods not recommended in vaishnav scriptures. but one who always recomemds that it is ok to eat meat, take wine, do illecit sex, and gamble is not a vaishnava.

Ok. Here is the articel i promised some time ago. ------------------ Hindus & Hare Krishnas (HK’s) Unity - by “Madhav” Background: Terms Defined: The word Hindu is about 1200 years old. When the Islamists started invading India around 900 AD, they had to cross the river Sindhu at the NW border of Bharat (India). They would pronounce Sindhu as Hindu. So, the world Hindu to them meant the people who lived on the East and South side of Sindhu. These people were (and most of them still are) the followers of Sanatana Dharma or Varnasrama Dharma that is described in the ancient Vedas and the Vedic literature. Their culture is known as the Vedic culture. People accept the authority of the Vedas and live by it. The culture is such that every one in the society has equal opportunity to progress spiritually towards God. Every act of daily life is geared towards God in mind and for spiritual progress. According to the Vedas, Sanatana Dharma is as old as the creation. So, the word Hindu meant the Vedic person and Vedic way of living (Sanatana Dharma) came to be known as Hinduism. The words Hindu or Hinduism are not mentioned in the Vedic literature because the name change occurred long after the scriptures were put on paper. Originally the literatures were kept in memory of the Brahmana class of the society. Hinduism is a very tolerant Dharma. The Book of Hinduism is Bhagavad Gita that is generally known is Gita. It is a 700-verse summary of 80,000-verse Vedas. While other religions give a set of beliefs for one to accept or reject. Hinduism provides spiritual truths that are as true and universal as the laws of science, like gravity or mathematics. Once can accept these truths and live by it, or choose to not accept and eventually suffer if the laws are violated. Just as the laws of gravity does not change no matter what you believe about it, the spiritual laws and facts about God and soul do not change whether you believe them or not. Hinduism, in principle, provides all possible ways of realizing God. That is why it talks of many names of gods. That is why it is difficult for non-Hindus to understand it. Consequently most non-Hindu cultures have misunderstood it and even condemned it. Every religion has some people who malpractice it. Hinduism is not any exception, but malpractice does not and cannot change what a religion originally is. While Islam and Christianity tells the followers to convert the whole world, Hinduism tells not talk about Hinduism to any one who is not showing friendly interest to know it. Consequently, the Hindus have never invaded another’s country and never have converted any one by force. Hinduism is inherently a secular way of living. Consequently the phrase “Hindu Fundamentalism” or “Hindu Fanatic” is an oxymoron. Unlike Islam and Christianity, Hinduism is not an organized religion. Bharat is described in the Vedic literature as devabhoomi, the land of the gods. It is a holy land of rishis (spiritual scientist), saints, sanyasis (people who give up worldly life for spiritual life), sadhus (godly people), and yogis and mystics. Most Hindus are God conscious. Hinduism says God is one. As creator He is Brahma, as maintainer, He is Vishnu, and as destroyer, He is Shiva. Then there are many demi-gods who serve God, just as there are many Governors and Mayors who serve the President. Consequently a Shiva worshipper Hindu is known a Shivite, and Vishnu worshipper is known is Vaishnava, etc. The philosophy of Vaishnavas is called Vaishnavism. This, Vaishnavism is a major part of Hinduism ever since Hinduism exists. Hinduism is non-sectarian. It addresses or is for all the people of all times and places. Hinduism has no pagans. Hindus are skin-color-blind. Race is transparent to them. Bharat is the cradle of the Vedic civilization. So, Bharat is the land of the Hindus, just as Israel is the land of the Jews. Hindu Nationalism is a new phenomenon, although Bharat is a nation of the Hindus since thousands of years. Since 1200 years the Hindus have been kicked and persecuted in their own land by Islamists and for 200 or so years before 1947 ruled over by the British people. Even after so much and so long suffering, the Hindus remained tolerant to the aggressors (Islamists and Christians). Gandhi made it worse for the Hindus by creating Pakistan for the Islamists and still allowing the Muslims to live in Bharat. He did it so because the Muslims threatened a civil war in 1947 and Gandhi did not want a war. What he did in actuality was he made the non-violent Hindus more tolerant of the aggressors, and he failed to make the violent aggressor Islamists non-violent. Now the Hindus do not want to tolerate any more non-sense from the Islamists or any one else. They want to keep Bharat intact, undisturbed, and reserved for the Hindus where they do not want any aggressor religion or ideology that thinks of converting any Hindu. They are working at internal level to stop Hinduism malpractice, and external level to cleanup Bharat of the ideologies that are aggressive to Hinduism and Hindus. Being Hindus, they preferred non-violent ways so far and for long, and none worked. The violent ways are within the scope of Hinduism as described in Gita and they know it. Gandhi’s non-violence message was from Jainism, not Hinduism. So, this sudden change in Hindus’ mood to restore self-respect and get control of their own land and self-rule is seen by the invader outsiders as Hindu fundamentalism, but it is not. Hindus really do not care what other countries do in their own country. They just want to make sure they can practice Hinduism without any hindrance from any one in their own land Bharat. The phrase “Hare Krishnas” identifies the Western followers of Bhakti-vedanta Swami Prabhupada who preached Krishna Consciousness (KC). KC is same as Vaishnavism at taught by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu some 500 years ago. His philosophy is slightly different from that taught by three Vaishnava Aacharya (religious authorities) that came before him. The Current Time: This is post 9/11/2001 WTC attack time and early 2003. 9/11 attack on WTC has made the world know the barbaric nature of Islam. The Hindus have many times suffered genocide over 1200 years from Islamists in Bharat. Therefore, the Hindus, being the vitims, know the barbaric nature of Islam since a long time. The current barbaric acts of Islamists towards Hindus are: The destruction of Baminan Buddha statue in Afghanistan, attack on Akshardham and Raghunath temples in Bharat. The web page http://www.hinduunity.org describes many such acts towards the Hindus. The jeehaad or Islamists’ holy war against all the non-Muslim people of the world is an asymmetric war of terrorism. (They do jeehaad as described in their Holy Book, Koran and Hadith.) No government alone can fight terrorism and win it. Everyone (or most of the) citizen needs to fight it in whatever small or big way one can fight it, violently or non-violently. For Hindus, violent war is the last choice. When all have to fight, then unity of purpose, organizing, planning, manning, funding, and executing is required. Therefore, the Hindus and HK’s can unite for this purpose. However, the way Sri Prabhupada has presented KC, it makes difficult for HK’s to unite with the Hindus. When many Hindus see that Hk’s do not understand them, then they turn away from HK’s and sometimes become hostile to HK’s. Still many Hindus do support HK’s. This article aims to discuss it with the hope that it will help HK’s unite with Hindus. Once properly understood, it would be seen that unity is already there but not realized. Now the Article: Some points (facts) are described below. a) Sri Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada who came to USA in 1965 and preached KC for 12 years all over the world was a Hindu. He was born and raised in Bharat (although that is not a condition to become a Hindu.) He practiced and preached KC or Vaishnavism or Krishna bhakti or Bhagavat dharma that is a major part or sect of Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma. He preached Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam. Gita is the Book of Hinduism. Krishna is known as God Vishnu among Hindus and in the Vedic literature. b) Hare Krishnas are Hindus. This is clear when they practice and preach KC. The Hindus clearly see it this way. If some one who follows Jesus is no doubt a Christian, then one who follows and worships Krishna is no doubt a Hindu. If a bird says it is not a bird, that does note make it a non–bird. c) Prabhupada said to his followers that he is not preaching Hinduism, so HK’s are not Hindus, he said. So the question is why he said so in light of paragraph a) above. Some answers are as follows: c1: Many Hindus have malpracticed Hinduism, and Hinduism is more than Vaishnavism. The malpractice is going away now, but is still there somewhat. Most non-Hindus incorrectly think that Hinduism is what the most Hindus practice. Rather than telling about the malpractices to the followers who mostly hated Hinduism because they do not know it correctly, he told he is not preaching Hinduism. This was to avoid the discussion about the malpractices and different sects’ principles of Hinduism. This was a lie, but for good reason, just like parents sometimes lie to a child to take a medicine that ultimately will make the child healthy. c2) The Islamists and the Christians have introduced Hinduism to the world incorrectly and defamed it for selfish reasons. Consequently most non-Hindus do not know what Hinduism really is, and hate it for what they know about it. If Prabhupada had said, ”I am teaching a part of Hinduism,” most would have turned away from him before listening him any more. So, it helped him teach pure Vaishnavism to them by telling it is not Hinduism or a sect of it. c3) When he said he is not preaching Hinduism, it became attractive to all, even who hated Hinduism. So, he got more followers, as he wanted. d) When the Hindus hear that Prabhupada said he is not preaching Hinduism when in reality he is, they (especially those who follow Hinduism correctly) feel that Prabhupada stole Hinduism and did not give due credit to the Hindus who kept Hinduism alive despite many Hindu genocides by the Muslims. This is like a mother (even a prostitute) will feel really bad, upset, and hurt when her son says, “I am not your child.” Although Hinduism is for every human being, it is the Hindus who kept it as their treasured heritage. So, when some one takes this heritage and spreads it, they feel good about it. However, when no credit is given to the Hindus for carrying on the culture for future generations, they feel bad about it. Similarly when the Hindus see that yoga and Aayurveda are silently stolen from Hindu heritage and commercialized, and no credit is given to the Hindus, they feel bad about it. The Hindu nationalists want to understand this heritage correctly and practice it well, especially in Bharat. e) Prabhupada preached pure Vaishnavism but packaged it wrongly to make it attractive to his western audience. Removing this false package does not change his preaching subject (Vaishnavism) at all. Vaishnavism still can be preached as Prabhupada taught it, but saying that it is a major sect of Hinduism. No harm can happen to the KC movement if this is done. f) When KC is recognized by HK’s as a part of Hinduism, millions of the Hindus will feel good about it and support the movement. Note that even without this correction, many Hindus do support KC movement. Hindus have no problem with others if others want to worship only one god exclusively. However, HK’s should not look down to the Hindus just because they worship many gods. They do it because there are many gods (devas/ devis). When they understand dharma correctly then they worship only one god. g) Currently HK’s are not supporting Hindu nationalist movement but the Hindus are supporting KC movement. Thus there is no mutual support that is needed when Islamists have declared war on all the kafirs (HK’s included). If the Hindu nationalists do not keep Islam and Christianity out of Bharat, then over some time not far, there will not be any Hindu temples or pilgrimage places like Vrindavan and Jagannath or Dwarika. It all will be just mosques, and burqa for women and cow slaughters every where. Islam is very intolerant, and Koran and Hadith and Saria are the books of religion as well as the government. Sure HK’s do not want this, and therefore they need to support Hindu nationalist movement as the Hindus support KC movement. h) Hinduism (Vaishnavism included) has four divisions of society. Ideally, the Brahmanas are the spiritual guides of the society. Kshatriyas are the protective class, the police and military to keep law and order so that every one can practice their dharma without any problem from any one. Vaishya are farmers and traders and merchants, and shudras are the labor class. Every society has these four classes. Without kshatriyas or the Hindu nationalists, the Hinduism will be run over by the Islamists in Bharat. Hindu-HK unity is desirable to avoid this and keep Hinduism alive and well for future generations on this earth. Bottom line: Vaishnavism the HK’s practice and preach is a major sect of Hinduism. It is a subset of Hinduism. Therefore, HK’s are Hindus and they need to accept this truth just as a Californian will not say he is not an American. The Hindus have no doubt about it. The HK’s should thank Sri Prabhupada for telling them (even incorrectly) he is not preaching Hinduism and thus making them Krishna devotees. Hinduism is just a recent new name for Varnasrama dharma or Sanatana dharma. The word “Hinduism” should not be used to mean all the malpractice the Hindus did in the past. Rather Hinduism needs to be presented to the world as it actually is given by Krishna in Gita. HK’s need to be sympathetic to the Hindu nationalist movement called Hindutva in reciprocation of the fact that Hindus do support KC movement. The current HK preachers need not say any more that they are not preaching Hinduism because now they know KC is not bad as malpracticed Hinduism was. It is very true and correct to say Vaishnavism is a sect of Hinduism and they are preaching that only in its pure form, and practice it correctly. The purpose of the article is to cause unity that is beneficial for HK’s as well as the Hindus. Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare --END—

>>but at one stage he must have decided to live upto the title of Mahatma, and his way of doing that was through Muslim appeasement, causing untold harm to the Hindus, and India in the long run. << according to prabhupada, he was not a mahatma per definition of mahatma given by krishna in gita. gandhi did not know how barbaric and aggresive and intolerant islam is. he thought his appeasement will make them friendly, and he was very wrong. now we suffer since then. now we need to fix it soon.

Weekly Standard January 13, 2003 Pg. 21 The Spy Who Came In From The Mosque Reda Hassaine fled Islamist Algeria. In London, he infiltrated bin Laden's network. By Jake Tapper LONDON -- "I'm very happy," Reda Hassaine says, a few minutes before almost breaking down in tears. His joy comes from his role in gathering evidence against Abu Qatada, an extremist Muslim cleric said to be a key al Qaeda figure, who was arrested in London in late October, just days before Hassaine and I talked. Hassaine, 41, is an Algerian Muslim who has spied on militant Islamist groups for the Algerian Secret Service, the French, Scotland Yard's Special Branch, and MI5, the British intelligence agency. He won't be completely happy, though, until another London-based Islamist--Abu Hamza--is also behind bars. Qatada and Hamza, he says, "raise money, encourage people to kill, claim assassinations." Hassaine knows this firsthand, he says, having seen their handiwork in Algeria and spied on them for various European intelligence agencies. Hassaine has a sad face and a stammer that improves with each bottle of Chianti, though it is fast replaced by melancholy. He chain smokes, enjoying the meal I've bought him, while he talks me through his journey from up-and-coming Algerian reporter to down-on-his-luck London ex-spy. Hassaine's story is a reminder that Muslims themselves have been the biggest victims of the rise of Islamist extremists. It's not difficult to discern the moral in his tale: that worldwide indifference to the horrors of Algeria in the 1990s helped pave Osama bin Laden's path to the World Trade Center. Moreover, Hassaine suggests that the West has been--and probably still is--unprepared to fend off the Islamist threat, though he is not without hope. "On the 11th of September, I was happy in one way," he admits at one point. Not that he wasn't horrified by the attacks. It's just that "for years and years I've been trying to warn people about what the Islamists are doing," he says. "Now I know George Bush is with me. Now I know Tony Blair is with me. But I have been working on this for years and years." IN THE EARLY 1990s, during Algeria's brief flirtation with democracy, Hassaine was part of the growing opposition to the government. "They were corrupt and only working for themselves," Hassaine says. In 1990, he was elected a party official in the populist hodgepodge of opposition known as the Islamic Salvation Front, or FIS. But a few days later he resigned, after realizing that FIS leader Abassi Madani was a megalomaniac who "saw himself as the new caliph"--meaning a successor to the Prophet Muhammad and political, military, and administrative leader of the Muslim world. "I met plenty of FIS people, and we talked about how the party should work, and then I found out what kind of people they are," he says. "They were using the election to get all the power and destroy the state." Hassaine says that after meeting Madani and the other FIS leaders he understood that they were planning on "going to war." War? I ask. Against whom? "Against the population," Hassaine replies. When it became clear in late 1991 that Algeria's first multiparty election would bring the FIS to power, the military "canceled the election," Hassaine says. Soon the hotheaded pronouncements at FIS meetings were no longer just talk. The party's militant wing, the Groupe Islamique Armé, or GIA, swung into violent action. "Then started the killing. The policemen first. Then the journalists. They had lists of people to be killed." Hassaine's colleagues started getting assassinated. The first, in May 1993, was Tahar Djaout, editor in chief of a cultural weekly and an award-winning novelist. Other journalists--good men, Muslim men--were slaughtered. One of Hassaine's good friends--Mohamed Abderrahmani, editor in chief of the government's French-language daily--"left his home to take one of his kids to school," Hassaine recalls. His eyes fill with tears as he shapes his hand into a gun. "Pow! Pow! Pow! Pow!" Hassaine was working the night shift at a newspaper when he heard that Abderrahmani had been killed. He took a call from one of the terrorists responsible. "We killed him," the caller said. "He should be now in hell!" Then Mohamed Mekati, chief foreign editor of El-Moudjahidan, an established daily paper. "I never saw in my life a Muslim like him," Hassaine says. "I mean, I am a Muslim. But I drink." Mekati was something else--devout, pious, focused. "Like a ninja," Hassaine says. Islamists killed him, too. Explosions, rapes, slaughters. Algeria was destroyed from the inside out. More than 120 foreign citizens were killed in the early days. Monks, church dignitaries, a bishop--murdered. Factories, schools, bridges--destroyed. A car bomb was driven into the national police headquarters in 1995, killing 42 and wounding 265. Entire villages were massacred. "They started to kill everyone," says Hassaine. "Kill, kill, as much as you can." The State Department's 1998 human rights report is typical of a decade of horror: "Armed Islamists continued their widespread campaign of insurgency, targeting government officials and families of security members, as well as persons whose lifestyles they consider to be in conflict with Islamic values. Armed groups continued to kill numerous civilians, including infants, by massacres and small bombs. Armed Islamists particularly targeted women; there were numerous instances of kidnapping and rape. Bombs left in cars, cafes, and markets killed and maimed persons indiscriminately." "How can I explain this to Westerners?" Hassaine asks. "These kind of people, they had been brainwashed in Afghanistan. When I left Algeria, people wanted to kill me. My closest friend, 35 of my colleagues, had been killed by Islamists in the GIA. They were taking babies and putting them in the ovens." Human rights organizations estimate that up to 100,000 Algerians have been killed in the civil war that began in 1992. "Most of the world closed their embassies," Hassaine says. "For them it was a question of internal [Algerian politics]. The world, they didn't see the threat coming to them. 'Let them kill themselves, let them fight themselves, as long as they don't touch us.'" But this attitude ignored the fact that Algeria was just one battlefield in a larger war, and that the GIA was one of the main organizations feeding Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network. "That's why I was happy on the 11th of September, with all respect to the families who lost their loved ones," he says. "My best friend--" he starts to say, then stops. He grows quiet and looks off in the distance. Tears well in his eyes. "These people want to destroy, not to build. They have nothing to offer. They offer 'paradise.' The Wahhabis--they killed Islam." IN 1994, HASSAINE and his family fled to London. "I was not going to let my baby get put in an oven," he says. He was able to leave only by making a deal with Algerian security services to help them spy on the GIA. Then in 1998, as France began preparing to host the World Cup, its law enforcement agencies anticipated a terrorist attack. A man from the French Embassy in London whom Hassaine knew only as "Jerome" recruited him to obtain information about any possible attacks. "They were giving me the chance to get revenge," Hassaine says. A bin Ladenist paper was set up, with Hassaine as editor. "People knew me as a journalist in Algeria. So it was a nice cover." He began providing the French with as much information as he could glean from days and nights spent praying, eating, talking with various extremists. When the French didn't come through with an offer of citizenship, Hassaine volunteered to help the British. In 1999, the Special Branch asked Hassaine to infiltrate London's now-notorious Finsbury Park mosque, whose imam Abu Hamza preached jihad to the likes of shoebomber Richard Reid. Hassaine was already familiar with Hamza and his ally Abu Qatada--both of them among the top GIA supporters in London. He held them responsible, in no small way, for what had happened in Algeria. "Hamza was the first spiritual leader of GIA," he says. "Abu Qatada and Abu Hamza, they are responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of people." According to the BBC, Qatada has circulated a pamphlet reveling in the murders of Algerian policemen, while Hamza once issued a fatwa in favor of assassinating various Middle Eastern public figures as well as a 2-year-old Algerian child. In December 1998, twelve Britons, two Australians, two Americans, and four local drivers were taken hostage by Yemeni terrorists, who telephoned Hamza within an hour of the kidnapping. The Yemeni government attempted a rescue, in which four of the hostages were killed. The Yemeni government, which also accused Hamza of sending ten jihadists (including his own son) there to attack Western targets in Aden, sought Hamza's extradition, "to be tried on charges of carrying out terrorist activities in Yemen and in several other Arab states." The request was denied; the British government has no extradition agreement with Yemen, a fact that has rankled numerous governments ranging from Jordan to the United States in their attempts to fight terrorism. As this international struggle went on, British authorities asked Hassaine for reports on Hamza and his associates, as well as a detailed map of the Finsbury Park mosque and all its escape routes. The information presumably proved useful when Scotland Yard arrested Hamza and two other men in a morning raid in March 1999. But four days later they were released. The authorities didn't feel the case was strong enough. "I was shocked," Hassaine says. "There is a big problem in the law here in London." Islamists "can claim assassinations, they can do propaganda. And all these things are 'freedom of expression'--even if you call for killing of people. The law is very, very weak. If these people had been in France, they would be in jail a long time ago." HAVING SPLIT FROM HIS WIFE, at least partly out of concern for her and their two children, and still seeking non-Algerian citizenship, Hassaine was assured that his asylum application would soon be taken care of. In the meantime the Special Branch passed his name on to MI5, which soon had him hanging out with Algerian extremists in London plotting various attacks. He saw a lot--from the inside. Abu Qatada recruited shoe-bomber Richard Reid and "20th hijacker" Zacarias Moussaoui, Hassaine says. "I saw them. Abu Qatada is the best brainwasher there is." In April 2000, Hassaine, working with his MI5 handlers, "went to check on information about somebody who went to Afghanistan to meet with Osama bin Laden." At the Finsbury Park mosque, he stumbled onto an odd gathering of the most hard-core congregants and some "strange" talk of martyrdom and holy warriors. Hassaine was chased down and beaten. "They tried to kill me," he says. Had his cover been blown? I ask. Who told them he was working for the government? What was his mistake? "I didn't have time to ask them why they were doing it," says an exasperated Hassaine. "I lost two teeth. See this?" he points to a scar on his nose. "I was very scared," he says. MI5 wasn't interested in pursuing his attackers. "They told me, what do you want? Do you want the guy who beat you or Abu Qatada?" MI5 told him that he had been compromised, that he should be quiet for awhile. Seeing Hamza walk the London streets infuriates Hassaine, as does reading his comments quoted in the newspaper. Just recently, Hassaine says, one of the leaders of the Finsbury Park mosque "was calling for people to do jihad against Americans and even the British if they attack Iraq. So they are still free in Finsbury Park and saying what they want. And doing what they want. And as long as Abu Hamza is free the threat is here. Because his aim is to be killed one day by doing jihad." Although Hamza's assets have been frozen because of his alleged membership in the Islamic Army of Aden--which has been linked to the October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole--he remains a free man, and an outspoken one. After the al Qaeda bombing of Israeli tourists in Kenya, Hamza told reporters that "by forcing al Qaeda to scatter around the world, Mr. Bush has made a mistake. He has given the inspiration for a global jihad." Qatada, meanwhile, is in prison in London, one of 10 individuals being held by British authorities under the 2001 anti-terrorism act. Unfortunately for Hassaine, as his usefulness as a spy evaporated, so too did the British government's pledge to honor his request for asylum, which was rejected, convincing him to go to the British press with the story of his exploits two years ago. He is permitted to stay in the U.K., but unlike Hamza--a British citizen since 1985--Hassaine is subject to deportation at any time. "My life is f--ed," he says. "I don't know what I'm going to do with my life now." Hassaine reserves his animosity for Islamists. I tell him that I think it odd and not a little disappointing that someone like him isn't being utilized by the British and French governments, not to mention ours, but all he'll say in response is that Algerians like him do have a lot experience with Islamic extremists. "The British and the Americans--of course they are doing their job, they are trying to solve the problem," he says. "But it will not be easy. They need the help of Arab people. If they think that the technology or the power or the arms or something like that, yes, it does help. But it will not be enough." But in the end they didn't treat you that well, I say. And it doesn't sound like they had that firm a grasp on what they were doing. Didn't he think that they should have treated him better? "Me? I don't know," he says. "I did what I had to do. By myself. Nobody told me to do it." He says he doesn't fear for his safety anymore. "If I will be killed," he says, "PFFFT! It will be as a martyr." Jake Tapper is a reporter and commentator living in New York City.

this is good!

jai sanatana dharma and dharmis!

very nice post prasad ji, could you also show the source of the info please. i believe it, bit it helps othrers and all.

i have not heard if kabir had any guru.

sardar J bhai, yes, god is one, but the concept of everyone's gods is different, and the god's message also is different. that is why muslims do terrorisms and others do not. a serious sadhak sticks to one path to god bur respets all others.

what is DO NA DO GO HV I please?

what is DO NA DO GO HV I please?

test of friendship is how we handle our disagreements between hindus (HK's included). pranam!

dear shrvu ji, thank you for asking a very good question. my answers are below your questions: 1. Kicking out Muslims from India not necessarily if we could persuade them to give up islam. islam is aggresive, intolerant and violent, and hinduism is the opposite. only the hindus loose everything if these two live together. if the hindus had practiced hinduism correctly as krishna says in gita, they could have avoided islam's invasion in india. now we need to correct the problem and do it fast. if it does not work, then they should be sent to pakistan. we made it for them. that was a lot of our sacrifice (and foolishness as well.) 2. Invading Pakistan no, but if it does not stop cross border terrorism and isi causing trobules within india, then strong steps could be taken. the hindus need to give up gandhian ahimsa policy and take up krishna's message. gandhi has made the hindus uneasonably tolerant like enuches. things are changing now. 3. Wait for them to make the first move. they already have taken many first moves in all kinds of terrorism all over india nd in kashmir. india needs to clean up from within all pro pakistani persons including isi's network. then prepare and be ready for all out war if that becomes necessary. pandavas' army was smaller than the kauravas, but they fought. ours is larger then this eternal enemy, and we have suffered a lot more than we should. i write this assuming you are a hindu and not a muslim. when a topic like this is discussed, there come two kinds of people who do not agree and give all kinds of reasons. one the muslims in disguise of hindus, and the other the hindus who still are under the delusion of gandhi's ahimsa and really do not know islam's barbric character and what they did to us for 1000 years. we need all the help we an get to argue with these two anti hindu or pro muslim groups.

why? because i felt i was gagged when "Prabhupada was a Hindu" thread was locked without giving any reason for locking. may be, there was good reason, but no one knew it. any way i am back becaue a few people asked me to come back. oh BTW, i am madhav, not madhava who is a different person.

dear kartik ji, thanks for your call to come back here. please read the thread "Prabhupada as a Hindu" thread if you did not read it. My article will start with that point and will show that it is beneficial for both HK's and the Hindus that HK's never say they are not hindus. This does not change the K C preaching of prabhupada at all. this unity was not necessary in 1965, but it is now.