Sarva gattah

Undoubtedly you are a very philosophical well educated person, what country are you from and what is your opinion of the Srimad Bhagavatam?

Because Mayavadi philosophy is sending innocent people to HELL

Thank you for that Only foolishly smoking it causes a chemical reaction that turns it into an intoxicant demned as illegal

I discovered this nice tasting mint on my farm a year ago and have been using it in subjis and selling it to friends and local shops. I found it instantly cures headaces and helps keep the mind very alert. Boiling it over a stove and breathing in the steam is a very healthy and natural way to clear the head and is also good for the lungs. It is illegal to use this mint, also known as sage, to smoke and the smoke only destroys your lungs anyway. Smoking it causes a chemical reaction that turns it into an intoxicant demned as illegal I sell 'cooking' salvia divinorum mint leaf to a few heath food shops under the heading of 'cooking blissful sage mint - keeps the mind sharp and alert'

Ultraviolet radiation warning that unshaded eco lightbulbs cause cancer Ian Sample and John Vidal The Guardian, Friday October 10 2008 Health officials issued a warning over energy-saving lightbulbs yesterday after research showed that some types could potentially harm the skin and even raise the risk of cancer. A study by the Health Protection Agency found that some unencapsulated fluorescent lightbulbs, which have a coil that is visible, emitted ultraviolet (UV) radiation above the recognised safety limits. The agency urged people who work close to lamps to avoid spending more than an hour at a time within a foot (30cm) of such energy-saving bulbs. The warning was directed at those using desk lamps for long periods, such as jewellery makers, and others who might have lights close to their face, such as car mechanics. John O'Hagan, a scientist at the HPA's Centre for Radiation, Chemical and Environmental Hazards, began tests on the lightbulbs after patient groups - including some people with the photosensitivity skin disease lupus - raised concerns about them. Tests found high levels of UV-C radiation in nine of 53 unencapsulated lamps. But 20 encapsulated lamps - those having a cover hiding the bulb's coil - had emissions well within the guideline limits. The highest levels of UV radiation, at 2cm away from the bulbs, were equivalent to exposure in direct summer sunlight, the agency said. The research is to be published in the journal Radiation Protection Dosimetry. UV-C radiation is much more damaging to DNA than the more common UV-A or UV-B radiation. High-energy UV-C lamps are used in hospitals to kill bugs. "If a lamp produces UV-C even in small amounts it will cause DNA damage like a germicidal lamp," said Anthony Carr, director of the genome study centre at Sussex University. The most immediate risk from the lightbulbs was a reddening of the skin similar to sunburn, but there was "also a small increased risk of skin cancer associated with this", the HPA said. It added that as only a small area of skin would be affected the risk was proportionately less than that carried by sunbathing. The warning comes as the EU's 27 energy ministers, meeting in Luxembourg today, are expected to confirm a ban on the sale and import of incandescent bulbs in Europe from 2010. Some exceptions will be for hospital equipment and people sensitive to compact fluorescent bulbs. The ban is forecast to save 2-3m tonnes of CO2 a year in the UK and up to 23m tonnes of carbon dioxide yearly throughout the EU. Justin McCracken, the HPA's chief executive, said the risk of health problems from the energy-saving bulbs was not so high people should get rid of them. The Lighting Association said it welcomed the caution but added that use of double-envelope bulbs for desk and task lighting was "considered entirely safe". A Defra spokeswoman said that the government would not be reviewing its strategy on energy-efficient lightbulbs.

Do you believe in individual souls (PERSONALISM) or do you believe 'consciousnesss' is all pervading flowing through all bodily vessels (IMPERSONALISM) experiencing different aspects of itself within those vessels divided by time, space and bodily containment?? In other words, you are me and I am you seperated by time and space

No its not, you are so naive. Obviously you have no realizations of how Mayavadis see everything as one and themselves therefore as God. wakey wakey I personally heard Prabhupada say that RamaKrishna and his disciple Vivikananda's impersonal nonsense Mayavadi philosophy has sent West Bengal to hell - go to Prabhupadas letters and read for yourself. Prabhupada: "Ramakrishna Mission is not Vedic. It is a creation of Vivekananda's concoction. It is not Vedic. Just like they created a God, Ramakrishna. So that is not a Vedic sanction, that you create any fool rascal, a god". Perth, May 16, 1975 - 750516TA.PER) © 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

The Mayavadis see EVERYTHING as illusion, I am u, you are me and we are all together as ONE consciosness. In this way claim to be God Devotees of Krishna on the other hand, see every living being as as individual identity, every soul or jiva as an eternal individual and Krishna as the Supreme Individual. Everything in NOT an illusion, but rather, a REAL creation of the Lord where Vaikuntha is the permanent aspect of Krishna's personal reality, while the inferior Mahat-tattva (material creation) is also REAL, yet impermanent and forever changing, fading and a decaying as a temporary reality of Krishna's wonderful creation. Both are real however, Vaikuntha is imperishable while the mahat-tattva is perishable. In other words the material creation is also very REAL but is temporary In the Spiritual Sky, there is a cloud that is very real but is always in a state of decay. This is where we consciously transfer our ‘awareness’ in the solid conscious state that is our baddha jiva condition. In other words, the marginal living entity can go, if he chooses, to the material creation (mahat tattva) and not serve Krishna, not as their svarupa body, but rather as a projected dreaming consciousness. However, because of the 'eternal presents' of Vaikuntha, we can never leave to enjoy separately as our nitya-siddha perpetual bodily self, whom is who we really are within that 'eternal present' of Goloka. We therefore enter the mahat-tattva cloud in a secondary conscious state that is very real but is normalised or reunited when one is again aware of their svarupa body (nitya-baddha). In this way, leaving Goloka is compared to dreaming, but this baddha jiva self centred dream, unlike the dream state of ones biological body, is very real but expressed in an atmosphere of eternal decay (the maha-tattva)

Well, good point, I see that you are having a go at ISKCON's pioneering years of growing pains, but seriously, does not a dog even believe they are happy? Or a pig eating stool think they are happy. Actually, there is happyness in the mateial world, but it's only temporary. Its that endless eternal happyness with Krishna, in our svarupa form, that we are trying to awaken and regain beyond the confines of this troublesome material body

Comment posted by Kesava Krsna dasa on September 29th, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom --><!-- end .comments --> 6 I think Pandu Prabhu’s point (please correct me if I am wrong Prabhu), is that even when Srila Prabhupada had some good grounds for exposing some very serious problems within Gaudiya Matha, he and B.P. Kesava Maharaja agreed to abide by the orders of the other senior devotees who asked them not to. Calling a thief a thief is not faultfinding (sometimes it has to be done), but people who are addicted to faultfinding will not hesitate to call honest devotees theives as well. Such faultfinding is very dangerous for spiritual life, as we all know, and such addicted faultfinders are obviously the ones Kesava Krishna Prabhu is talking about. (Right Kesava Krishna Prabhu? I think we all know the kind of statements you mean.) CCd’s proposal is the best policy. As far as possible, we should not listen to a Vaisnava be vilified, let alone participate in such personal attacks. Why is it so important to these folks to do that? It won’t be good for them, nor will it be good for anyone to listen to them. [Yet they seem to fancy themselves as muckraking heroes. It only makes them feel like bigger heroes if we react and try to muzzle them. We should as far as possible adopt the policy of “pouring in more milk”, so as not to get our own hands inky. Their half-truths and outright lies and slanders will shrivel up when exposed to the sunshine of real Krishna consciousness.] ISKCON of today is not suffering from the kind of problems the Gaudiya Math experienced in Pandu’s example. There were some serious problems in the 1980s, and again when Harikesa fell in 1998, but today I see a lot of depth of maturity and realization among ISKCON’s leaders, and a breadth of many talented devotee-leaders who are helping ISKCON push forward. Prabhupada apparently agreed to suppress his own “revolutionary” writings at the behest of senior Gaudiya Math leaders. “Let us obey their orders.” And he was legitimately calling attention to real derelictions of duty, malfeasance, embezzlement and worse. Those who want to expose some perceived wrongdoings should probably learn from the example cited by Pandu, and consult with trusted leaders first. We do not need to create Stalinist regimes of enforced official worship and suppression of dissent. The real light of Prabhupada’s enlightened disciples will drive away (or convert) all the angry, faultfinding discontents. Many are just misguided, weak devotees who need to be befriended and enlightened. <!-- end .comments-middle -->Comment posted by Akruranatha on September 30th, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom --> <!-- end .comments --> 7 But aside from the Sisupal-like blasphemers that I think Kesava Krishna is writing about, there is a more subtle kind of fault-finding that holds us back, when we start worrying about how other devotees are doing their service, and start criticizing it, or trying to change their ways. Unless it is really our responsibility to train or direct the way someone else is preaching, why should we worry so much about how they are doing it? If we think it can be done better another way, we should just set a good example ourselves. Or we might make a humble suggestion in private to express our concerns directly, but be prepared to accept that the other devotee may have another view. [After all, we are individuals and do not lose our individuality as we advance in Krishna consciousness. We want “independent thoughtful men.” We should renounce our desire to bring other devotees under our own control. It may get us in trouble.] It is not our duty to be the “critic” of what is the best way to serve Krishna. We might not know how some other plan or strategy is going to work. The internal energy may be dictating different methods to different devotees. Let’s hope they surprise us with their success. I am sorry I am being so abstract, rather than giving concrete examples. If I started giving concrete examples it might sound like I was criticizing and faultfinding those involved in the examples, which is not my intention. Mainly I am just pointing to the general principle that different devotees are inspired in different ways, and they should gravitate naturally toward others with whom they can work favorably, and focus on doing something positive for preaching, rather than spend their energy trying to stop other devotees from doing things differently. We could benefit from more of a “live and let live” attitude. Not that we should be unconcerned about each other’s spiritual well being, but even then, if we want to instruct someone, we have to be smart about how we do it so it will likely be effective. It can be another kind of sense gratification to instruct someone carelessly. Sometimes divisive politics and personality conflicts unnecessarily arise in the society of devotees, due to our mistaken idea that it has become our duty (or we have earned the “right”) to criticize other devotees. We should be open to the idea that we might be wrong, they might be right, and it might be none of our business. <!-- end .comments-middle -->Comment posted by Akruranatha on September 30th, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom --> <!-- end .comments --> 8 The reason I responded to the Gaudiya Math example is because Srila Prabhupada’s God brothers often bare the brunt of our comparisons between the relative stability within Iskcon and that of the gaudiya Matha. And this example is frequently used by proponents of lower taste devotee shaming. Yes, Akruranatha Prabhu, I have noticed how in recent comments to other articles even, where some devotees express misunderstanding of my intentions, you come to the rescue to put matters into perspective. There is no exception here either. Your legal mind can gauge the direction and yet make it inclusive too, to encourage others. So I appreciate your comments, however much you have to say. CCD prabhu’s way forward is the ideal, but how many will agree? How many agree to what I am saying? How many agree with vaisnava behaviour in the real world? “Come on oh dasa…get real…it’s Kali-yuga…a crook can be named and shamed,” but where does the identification of the crook and honest devotee begin and end? An honest devotee is a crook to some, yet it feeds a very hostile environment in which there seems to be no clear cut ideology in terms of criticism and the rest. While we strive to uplift and integrate finer aspects of vaisnava culture into our lives, the challenges put forth by those advocating some hard-nosed realism causes ideological dissent. But however wide the gap is between devotees of differing shades of interpretation of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, whatever anybody does in one quarter will be acutely judged by another, and it continues. Srila Prabhupada distanced himself from the ruins of the then Gaudiya Math to go it alone and begin a new chapter in vaisnava history. In spite of the varied differences between devotees, we do not have the luxury of distancing ourselves, but rather stay to unite, which is more luxurious. But come rain or hail, fire and brimstone, only the sincere chanting of Hare Krishna will set our own unique paths towards perfection. At least along the way, perhaps it was a worthwhile cause to alert of the dangers of publicly hounding the honest devotees. Other than that, we have to be resigned to our fate determined by our innermost desires. Perhaps someone more qualified can take up the cause. Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa. <!-- end .comments-middle -->Comment posted by Kesava Krsna dasa on September 30th, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom --> <!-- end .comments --> 9 Dear Prabhus, The one point I especially want to make in supporting your concerns is this: those who have either written books or placed comments on the internet that are uncomplementary have done the greatest disservice. My daughter, doing some research on a paper for college, looked up Arotika & Srila Prabhupad and was mortified to see what trash come up on the internet. So damned you are if you have been contributors to harsh comments of a crow-like nature. Whatever one’s self-righteous purposes are in placing those comments in print or on the internet, you cannot retract those. They are “out there” and the venom cannot be extracted from the media. So, be thoughful and kind. Krishna is in your heart and is witnessing your every thought and choice. He will sanction if you become qualified to enter Goloka Vrindaban, or if you prefer, if you wish to journey into hellish conditions of existence. I therefore caution those with critical hearts and minds to restrict your activities with discussions in “conversation only”. Once you spew hurtful arguments into the internet or in print, you earn a degree you may wish you never had, however clever it sounds to some. I know the heart of Srila Prabhupad. He expressed it to me. He criticized me when I was wrong. I can tell you this: Srila Prabhupad overlooked karma to engage his disciples in bhakti. If you follow this example, you will be counted amongst the swan-like devotees who will welcome you into their company in the higher planes of existence, even as we also must be welcomed into Goloka by such well-wishers. Travel carefully, thoughtfully, and let negative thoughts go. That is discrimination. Srila Rupa Goswami recommends that we accept everything positive for the service of the Lord and His devotees, and reject that which is unfavorable. I hope this helps some. If someone wants to criticize someone, let them criticize me…I shall appeal to Krishna that you have insulted a non-devotee and that He might therefore forgive you. Pusta Krishna das <!-- end .comments-middle -->Comment posted by pustakrishna on September 30th, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom --> <!-- end .comments --> 10 Pusta Krishna Prabhu, my ignorant self does not understand this point: “Srila Prabhupad overlooked karma to engage his disciples in bhakti.” Please, can you explain? Sorry for my ignorance. Thank you. <!-- end .comments-middle -->Comment posted by Namacarya das on October 1st, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom --> <!-- end .comments --> 11 “Yes, Akruranatha Prabhu, I have noticed how in recent comments to other articles even, where some devotees express misunderstanding of my intentions, you come to the rescue to put matters into perspective. . . So I appreciate your comments, however much you have to say.” Thanks for this warm expression. It means a lot to me. I appreciate your comments and articles, too, Kesava Krishna Prabhu. Please keep them coming. And all of you readers and writers. Please keep it up. I really appreciate all the devotees who comment here, and the editors who make this site possible. I don’t know what it is, but I have this itch to talk on the internet with devotees. It is like I am a columnist on deadline and I have to say something on Dandavats every day. [And, contrary to popular belief, they do not always publish everything I say. Thank God!] :-) But mainly, I want to interact with what other devotees are writing and saying, to focus in on what they write, try to appreciate what they mean, and show that I have understood by giving some (hopefully coherent) response. Communication is a normal human drive. Communication in writing can be more rewarding, sometimes, than just talking (where people can be prone to interrupt, misunderstand, or change the subject before the point has been satisfactorily made.) I spend my days communicating with opposing counsel and with judges, mostly striving to “win” for my clients (there is so much hypocrisy and double-talk involved), and also with clients who are often in anxiety (litigation can be hell). I would rather have nice, favorable communication with Krishna’s beloved devotees, and dovetail this communication impulse into something positive. I think part of why the internet is full of such foul, offensive material is that we devotees have not been very good at communicating with one another. Maybe I am being naive, but I think some of the schisms and ignorant finger-pointing and counter-cursing could have been avoided through careful, deliberate communication between honest, well-wishing, friendly devotees. Those who have gone off the deep end into outlandish, vituperative slander are hard for me to understand. How did they get that way? What made them so bitter? Did we somehow participate, like Dr. Frankenstein, in creating this monster? How did we lose their friendship? Can we win it back? They mostly seem like crude, coarse people, but do we have a duty to them, at least to try? <!-- end .comments-middle -->Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 1st, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom --> <!-- end .comments --> 12 As Pusta Krishna Prabhu correctly says, there is so much bad stuff infiltrating the internet that thousands of hapless souls can be put off from taking genuine steps forward towards Krishna. If a vaisnava is one who instils Krishna consciousness in others, can all those negative diatribes aimed at honest devotees be the work of vaisnavas? It is a great disservice indeed. But with a twist of logic many will assert that this appeal to avoid faultfinding is the doing of a special kind of paranoia; a ploy to keep all traces of dissent well hidden within the minds of complainants, which is an abuse of power. While it is true, a megalomaniacal leader can thrive in a climate of fear, these types of leadership models are not in vogue within Iskcon. Besides, there is ample recourse for complaints within proper structures; we have our checks and balance systems in place. So the need to avoid faultfinding is rather an inbuilt self defence mechanism if you like. At least for most spiritual practitioners the training in vaisnava etiquette and self-discipline are required to ensure steady progress. Once a certain level of affection has developed towards fellow devotees in true friendship, and appreciating all devotees, then to hear or to engage in faultfinding, becomes a very distasteful proposition. A hearty measure of humility is the basis for such healthy respect. Having reached this level does not mean the faculty of discrimination has vanished. Rather it is heightened to the degree that no spiritual gain is derived from baseless indiscrimination, and so the needs for cultured resolutions to problems are the order of the day. Still, having said all this, some attempted smart retorting will fill the gaps of certain web pages with howls of, “This is paranoia gone despotic! Even Caligula would make a tame alternative…anything but!” It is sad to say that such proliferation is quite widespread, as if to reduce the honest devotees to a minority. Yes, this is very sad. Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa. <!-- end .comments-middle -->Comment posted by Kesava Krsna dasa on October 1st, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom -->

Comments • <!-- end .comments-header --> 1 you are absolutely right.. but i think that the most important thing is to see the problems and to find a remedy.. especially when the problems are many … in the verse of Krsna Book that you have brought, it is Krishna who judges that jarasanda is not to be allowed to talk.. we have not such power… so it is possible that who we call an offender (that it can be an offense in itself), is not an offender but a sincere devotee.. but.. the most important thing remains the problem… if you criticize me or my situation, i have to take it in consideration and i have to think about it, even if you were recognizable as the biggest demon.. (sorry for my bad english… ) HARE KRISHNA !!! <!-- end .comments-middle -->Comment posted by yasodanandana on September 27th, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom --> <!-- end .comments --> 2 Yashodanandana Prabhu, While it is true many issues need to be dealt with, and sincere devotees will no doubt raise their concerns in the proper way, there is a difference of approach in how faultfinders and sincere devotees face such problems. A sincere devotee will more likely tackle the issues at hand without going for the man as it were - to heap scorn on a personal level. Sincere devotees will observe vaisnava protocols and communicate concerns behind the scenes. Such discreet communication will help ease the pressure for forced disclosure and minimise the personal fallout, considering the hurt caused. Faultfinders will sieze the same opportunity and publicise the issue and gloat in the credit of hurting the feelings of others. The pride of righteousness will also aim for the man and personalise the issue. Even honest devotees in good standing are unable to escape indiscriminate corrections. The difference of approach is the difference between goodness and ignorance tinged with passion; mature or immature, civilized or corrosive. Even materailistic people acknowledge the need for civilized conduct when resolving faulty issues. Of course, serious matters will surface sooner or later, naming and all, and there is no exception within the devotee community either, and in some cases this is warranted. So the behaviour of a sincere devotee and how he or she reacts in certain situations will be different to how a seething faultfinder reacts. If we are unable too see the difference we can very easily side with the faultfinding mentality and think to ourselves: “What’s the harm? There only pointing out defects.” It should come to notice that a display of indifference, or mild approval, can grab one into the net of faultfinding and eventually erode the sensitivity to finer vaisnava sentiments. For this reason a desensitised mind feels less guilt about harsh judgements. Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa. <!-- end .comments-middle --> Comment posted by Kesava Krsna dasa on September 28th, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom --> <!-- end .comments --> 3 Hare Krishna. One example of how Srila Prabhupada (”Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu”) responded to deviations in the Gaudiya Matha after the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada is described in Our Srila Prabhupada, A Friend to All, Early Contemporaries Remember Him. This part told by Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Goswami Maharaja: “…Later Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu wrote another dramatic article — this time about some of the leaders in the Gaudiya Matha. The article explained how the institution was coming apart after Srila [bhaktisiddhanta] Prabhupada’s departure. Grihasthas were giving up their wives and loving others’ wives, and in the name of developing the mission, some were putting all the money collected into their own pockets. S annyasis, even those who had been with their Prabhupada, were making buildings and sending all the money to their sons in their former homes to go to high school and university, or to go to England and America to study law and other things. He wrote about this situation and the first part was published in our Bhagavata-patrika and Gaudiya-patrika. At once a big storm broke out in the whole Gaudiya Mission. Although only about three pages were printed, letters began to come from many Gaudiya Mathas. “It was like a revolution. Our guru maharaja and Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu were talking and smiling very secretly together. Prabhu said, ‘We should publish more of it. Why not?’ Guru Maharaja was also in favor of publishing it. However many of the godbrothers exclaimed, ‘Oh, Kesava Maharaja, what are you doing, printing this? Then everyone will know and will criticize the Gaudiya Matha. These are our private family matters.’ Even Pujyapada Srila Sridhara Maharaja, who was highly respected by all, was consulted. Many godbrothers came to Mathura at that time and Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu was residing here in our matha. Srila Tirtha Maharaja andother devotees asked, ‘What are you going to do? If you print this then our present institution will be smashed.’ Guru Maharaja and Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu were smiling and asking each other, ‘Oh, what to do?’ But when requested by so many godbrothers they decided, ‘Later on we may publish the articles, but for now we should obey their orders.’” <!-- end .comments-middle -->Comment posted by Pandu das on September 29th, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom --> <!-- end .comments --> 4 I find it that it would be very hard for me personally, if only I was a devotee, to find faults with other vaishnavas. In fact I think it should be a role of non-devotees who should do it instead of devotees… Vaishnavas are so exalted, it is impossible to see faults without being faulty. It is the age of kali and naturally everyone is affected, but hardly a reason to minimize the power of devotional service, as if even visible faults are counteracted by the fire of devotional service to Krishna. Why would anyone be a fault finder to devotees? I know that some may disagree with me, but it is better for a devotee to exaggerate the faults one see in ones own heart then to blow out of proportion faults of others. I would advise to follow the example of Srivasa Thakura - who was framed for worshiping devi, and he admitted to this ‘fall-down’, even he was not at fault. Jaya Srivasa Thakura ki? Jaya… Of course some say ‘do not apologize, it is the sign of weakness’, but vaishnavas want to be weak to attract mercy of Gauranga… <!-- end .comments-middle -->Comment posted by ccd on September 29th, 2008 <!-- end .comments-bottom --> <!-- end .comments --> 5 Pandu Prabhu, Certain aficianados of faultfinding also like to pick up on Srila Prabhupada’s less than glowing reports of the demise of the Gaudiya Math which failed to heed the call for a GBC body. Excerpts of historical accounts and pages of Chaitanya Charitamrta attest to these. However, Srila Prabhupada warned us: “I can criticise my Godbrothers; you cannot.” If we wish to use the above material as something to follow, still we would be in contravention of the Godly quality of being, “averse to faultfinding,” (BG 16.1) which is expanded upon in the purport to include unneccessary correction of others. If the above material is displayed to infer that Iskcon is experiencing the same dramatic storm that flattened the Gaudiya Math, with an excuse to let loose acrid vitriol on it’s members, then the results are already there on the web. But why would Srila Prabhupada himself warn his followers of criticising, as if to contradict himself, or be inconsistent in philosophical values, as this material infers? Why did Srila Prabhupada beg for forgiveness from his Godbrothers in his last days? Does anyone think he wanted us to be at war with each other by leaving aside Godly qualities and assuming tamasic ones? This type of material needs to be balanced against the far greater aggregate of his teachings, which are to help us elevate ourselves. We often see how certain devious thought patterns plough all their weight in gold on obscure statements or traits of behaviour, and build it into a deviant dead branch passing as the real thing. Any intelligent devotee will not use the above material as a license to be a faultfinder, claiming to follow in Srila Prabhupada’s footsteps. If we read his books carefully, listen to his lectures and so on, while chanting Hare Krishna sincerely, the way forward is as clear as the Godly path. When the sensitivity has waned and one looks for ‘excitement’ by way of faultfinding, one will discover any old pretext to barge in and assent, and the above material will add to the same battle worn artillery. In fact, it is a way of telling everyone: “Srila Prabhupada was a faultfinder. Let me be one too.” This is not cryptic language, just blatant misuse of the intelligence influenced by ignorance. Some would see this as an offence in itself. Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa.

There is a lot of good points in the following - yes, we have to be fair and honest in our critizisms and not emotional Kesava Krsna dasa writes: There is something unsettling about faultfinders who claim to have Iskcon and Srila Prabhupada’s interest at heart, but who use cunning behaviour to tell the whole world how devious and wicked the honest devotees are. Unfortunately, innocent, happy-faced devotees can turn into cold judgemental characters after being exposed to words said to be highly beneficial for the devotee community. There exists an enormous market in the genre of gossip and rumour, which explains the great popularity of TV soap operas the world over. Repetitive themes of spiritual scandal, heresy, and deviation make for indulgent absorption, especially for one experiencing a dreary devotional continuation. Such curious excitement about the who’s who in spiritual circles issuing from suspect forums can be the stuff that kills the cat of the devotional creeper without even knowing it. Exercising the right for free speech and discrimination and disguising all manner of invectives and negativity with polished philosophy and zealous concern, these expressions are intended to destroy tender faith, and help harden the heart to repeat the abusive cycle of fault-finding in others. Faultfinders are fond of using various tactics to impose their superiority in argument, but when pitted against proper adherence to vaisnava culture these same tactics become their downfall. The use of certain types of logic though appealing to many, in fact lay bare the inner workings of a distressed condition, much like seeing an ugly tortoise without it’s shell. “I am still healthy and chanting” Historical vaisnava literature records how certain offenders to vaisnavas succumbed to devastating reactions such as leprosy and other disasters. Bearing in mind these afflictions came after insulting exalted souls like Srila Haridasa Thakur, the question arises; do these reactions fit the severity of the crime? Or to put it into today’s context, after the passing of Srila Prabhupada who naturally exuded a maha-bhagavat stature, will the offending of all those less than him, including the gurus and other honest devotees, mete out far lesser reactions, or none at all? Some faultfinders proudly proclaim to have been dredging up the dirt of faults in their adversarial God brothers and sisters, and grand disciples for years, yet they are still healthy and chanting Hare Krishna too. Without compunction, they obviously feel that with no ill effects befalling them they are doing the correct thing. Is this really the case? Are they truly free from any serious consequences? In reality, there is one outstanding feature of punishment evident for all to see, day after day, year after year. While the physical reactions may not be discernable, the body still does the bidding of higher faculties. So when the mind and intelligence are deeply absorbed in thinking and planning what next abusive article to write for the destruction of devotee’s faith while chanting Hare Krishna, this in itself is serious punishment given by the Lord. In other words, the bodily appendages may not be melting away with leprosy, but the attraction to delightfully zoom in to the festering sores, boils, and wounds of honest but sometimes-faulty spiritual endeavour is a joyous perversion of bliss. Such a state of mind will admire the stench of rotting potatoes to be the heavenly fragrance of the blue lotus flower, and a pineapple to taste like mouldy broccoli. This is unfortunate. Indiscriminat discrimination “I am using my powers of discrimination, oh dasa”. While the objects of their lampooning are referred to as dasa and guys, the faultfinders reverently call each other prabhus. “We are allowed to discriminate aren’t we? Trouble is, we don’t discriminate enough…you see, a spade is a spade…” Are copious amounts of discrimination good for all of us? Let us see. In normal vaisnava dealings, it would be most foolhardy and reckless to disparage a guru in good standing in front of a disciple, or group of disciples. This would certainly be a doomed case of so-called discrimination. Such a person would hardly tell a garden pea from a cannon ball. Yet on certain forums, the use of incorrect discrimination can at once ruin the spiritual lives of many unsuspecting devotees. Striding under the banner of good old hard-nosed journalistic dedication combined with discrimination, the publishing of tales often based on rumour and second-guessing about honest devotees and spiritual masters, are actually indiscriminate doses of toxic sludge that have no value for the devotional creeper. Rather than uplift the readers these ‘highly beneficial’ tales plunge the consciousness down into ignorance. If after reading such material a devotee begins to lose respect and faith in other honest devotees then we know the work of the indiscriminator has cast the evil spell of aparadha into the heart, to replicate the same with a new recruit. The dangers posed by these faultfinders often go unnoticed because the injection of ignorance will cloud the ability to know. Is there any wonder why they think they are always right? Unfair debaters Because illusion and ignorance has stolen their sense of decency and happiness, the need to rise to the position of guru almighty helps to insulate against fair and dignified debate. If, for instance a disciple legitimately defends his or her guru, the predictable retort will be; “Stop being sentimental, oh dasa or dasi”. Not realising that human sentiments have their place in matters of devotion, just as the Pandavas seethed on hearing Sisupala’s blasphemous tirade against Krishna, the faultfinders have lost their finer sentiments having been eroded by punishment. A proud ignorant stance has a reputation to keep and to ensure victory means to argue in a way that the opponent be “damned if they do, and damned if they don’t”. A generous quantity of dirty tricks like speculation, second-guessing the object of envy, dredging up the past, casting aspersions, are just some of their artillery. In order to be noticed on certain forums the use of eye-catching scandalous headlines hope to invite responses and challenges from honest devotees. The faultfinders lament when honest devotees do not respond to their victory cries, for swan like mentalities care not for crow-like places. Then the faultfinders proclaim again that they are victorious simply because nobody cared to debate with them - hollow victory indeed. If there is no scriptural basis, on which to find fault or unnecessarily correct others without being a father or guru, this alone defeats their purpose. Bewildered about who a vaisnava is The punishment of being attracted to the morose destruction of faith is combined with a worrying inability to tell a vaisnava from a non-vaisnava. The craving to belittle the vaisnavas in good standing obviously means they do not consider them vaisnavas, unless of course they are someone like Sri Srivasa Thakur. Those in knowledge cannot condone the gratuitous wholesale nature of their ‘discriminate’ ramblings aimed at weakening the faith of readers in certain vaisnavas. To have one’s knowledge stolen by illusion is a certain cause of bewilderment in ascertaining who is favoured by Krishna, and who is not. This consideration alone in conjecturing who is dear to Krishna, and who is not, from the distance of uninformed guesswork does not fit within the purview of sanity. Discretion dictates the utmost in respect, and confidentiality in matters of deep personal doubt; not displaying it as a leverage to settle scores, or to gather support against those disliked on a personal level. Depleted finer sentiments Posturing as a devotee yet demeaning another reveals the erosion of positive sentiments like appreciation, gratitude, gratefulness, encouragement and so on, which do not feature very much in their analyses; we do see more negative wording reflecting distress and allied emotions. Can a distressed state of mind speak or write sound philosophy? When Lord Krishna was about to engage in battle against Jarasandha, and during the initial beating of the chest verbal exchanges, He had this to say: “We do not care to hear from you any more, because it is useless to hear the words of a person who is going to die or one who is very distressed”. (Krishna book ch. 50) “The passion for honour” (BG. 16.1) at the expense of another devotee will usually be obtained through being “expert in insulting others” (BG.18.28). As it is normal for any happily situated devotee to admire the efforts of fellow devotees, in spite of learning curves and mistakes, these do not register for one in a distressed state of mind. Even a reasonable person will reflect: “Devotional service is such a rare, rare thing. How astonishing it is that all these devotees are trying, yes, trying to please their spiritual masters and Krishna”. To be devoid of this simple sentiment indicates something is wrong, and to publish hollowed out under-sentimental words meant for devotees is a great disservice. I know that To impress with their learning the faultfinders will presume to already know about certain realisations of assured devotees when passing judgement on their work. Many of them distanced themselves from Iskcon years ago and are ensnared in a time and space quite far removed from the progress made in terms of devotee learning, and general maturation within Iskcon. When they analyse something it is often reactive to the subject matter at hand, and will introduce repetitions of times gone by without genuine insight. The urge to communicate inner conflicts and unhappiness heavily influences their ongoing desire to have the world take them seriously, but the realisations will be limited to these constraints. Fault finding the fault-finders Another typical response to an honest devotee trying to defend other vaisnavas is, “you are fault finding yourself…so how can your words have any value?” To this, we should see who stands upon firmer territory sastrically, the faultfinder, or the one who is defending honest devotees. Remembering how cunning a person with no sastric backing can be and how he will turn around an honest argument, the simple answer is, the defender has moral authority. Even so, to get into an argument with a seasoned faultfinder will not produce a satisfactory outcome. The tendency to add more criticism and unfounded personal attacks to match some normal responses by the defender will bring the encounter down to an undignified level. Better to keep a distance, and if they wallow in an acclaimed victory that never was, let them have it, for they have their punishment to contend with without any chance of victory, unless they change. The attempts of the defender are more an ornament, but the climate in which good advice is unheeded is rife with ignorance. Curiosity hacks the creeper When some rumour mongering stokes the fire of curiosity and directs us towards the source, be it verbal or written, knowing full well the story may be false or plain downright vengeful, should we be worried? We should if we accept the information as factual, when later it turned out to be untrue, by which time some faith and respect has been hacked. Now the global village enables news to whiz into our e-mail boxes in an instance, the need for information is easily granted, but so is the lurking devil of our curiosity, which requires upward direction. Whatever feeds our information requirements it is worth noting in the event of a headline sensation, the often-repeated warnings of Srila Prabhupada. Just one typical example should suffice to curb our risky curiosity: “Even if you find some fault in him. Because sadhu is sadhu-bhusanah. You cannot find fault in him. Cannot find fault, but even though if you find some fault, but if you find that he is strictly, he is engaged in the service of the Lord, Krishna says, he is sadhu”. (BG. 4.8 class, Bombay, March 28, 1974)

The present imature watered down version of ISKCON in Autralia, have no idea what they are doing, nor have they the guts to take responsiblity and own up to their past injustices and mismanagement, that cleverly denies devotee from knowing the truth. Instead, they now palm it all off to the Indian congregational members to sought out. Its all just another cover-up to avoid responsibility What a joke

This is a great thread, I wonder if the administrators or a writer from this website would be interested in putting a book together of stories of how we all first met the devotees of Krishna?

The Hindu-ization of ISKCON When we refer to ISKCON, naturally we're referring to Srila Prabhupada's mission, and not to what is today the modern manifestation of ISKCON. Basically, we're looking for Srila Prabhupada's opinion or his view on "Hindu". As Srila Prabhupada clarifies in Science of Self-Realization, "Hindu" is just a name that was coined by the Muslims, early on in their reign of India, which lasted over 800 years. They could not pronounce Sindhu properly, so they called it the river 'Hindu', and the inhabitants there became known as the 'Hindus'. Srila Prabhupada has explained that the true definition of a Hindu is one who is a member or descendant from the original Bharatvarsha, and who follows the Vedic scriptures. India today is composed of Muslims, Jains, Sikhs, and various other minority groups, but those who follow the Vedas in some way or another form the majority of Hindus. What we're witnessing today in Pakistan, which is seldom mentioned, is the fact that the ex-Hindus who are now Muslims for the most part, and who are of Indian origin, are not the real radicals. The radicals are the Muslims from what they call the "tribal areas" close to the border of Pakistan. Srila Prabhupada ventured to the West not only per the mandate of his Spiritual Master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, but also because it was his destiny as a nitya-siddha to spread Krsna consciousness outside of India, and primarily in the West. Srila Prabhupada referred to the Indians who left India on account of wanting to improve their economic conditions, as "crows". Many came to study in western universities, and due to their superior culture and intelligence, they are very successful in this venture. Consequently here in the West, there are millions of Indians/Hindus who are very wealthy. I have read that they're the wealthiest sector of immigrants in America. So naturally, in the early days of ISKCON, we did enjoy the assistance of many Indians. Not only did they contribute financially, they also considerably endeavored to help Srila Prabhupada's movement. They were very amazed and proud of Srila Prabhupada's efforts and results. Srila Prabhupada reminded us many times, and it's the sastric truth, that Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu ordered all Indians to adopt this Krsna consciousness philosophy and spread it throughout the world. Srila Prabhupada said that the reason the world was in such a hellish condition was in part due to the fact that the Indians did not take up this mission, because ultimately, everyone is suffering from lack of knowledge. And of course it's not simply knowledge, but the process of chanting and participating in the Sankirtana movement. At the same time, as Srila Prabhupada clearly explained on his morning walk on September 15, 1975 in Vrindavan, everyone needs to take to this Krsna consciousness, Indians and westerners alike: Prabhupada: Everyone is in insanity. They are trying to different way. They do not know the only solution is, as Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sarana... [bg. 18.66]. That they do not, neither they'll accept. Vasughosa: Especially Indian people, you know, they say, "Well, if I surrender to Krsna, who will feed me?" Prabhupada: No, no, Indian, American, everyone. Why you are, American, you are so proud of your...? Vasughosa: No. (laughter) No, but because in India people know that they should surrender to Krsna, no? Prabhupada: But you also know. Vasughosa: But the general mass, I mean, of Americans, they don't understand. Prabhupada: These are faulty, fault-finding. It is no good. Everyone. Krsna did not say for Indian or American. For everyone. But at the present moment Indians are misled that they have been, I mean to say, induced to think that if they become like American or Western people they will be happy. That is misleading. Srila Prabhupada's initial success in preaching to the westerners has now transitioned into a phenomenon of Indians, both in India and in the West, being the primary converts and participants of the institution going by the name of ISKCON. In the early days when I first got involved, I found it quite amazing how the Indians who came to the temple so easily understood and enthusiastically participated, but at the same time, they did not wish to encourage their offspring to fully participate in the way that Srila Prabhupada wanted the westerners to do. That primarily meant they wanted them to get a western education and be successful in western culture. In other words, to make money. I think for the most part, we can safely say that's still the case. There are exceptions, of course. On the other hand, of the westerners who first joined, many have abandoned the original spirit and have either gone back to university or regretted that they'd given up their education as they tried to survive and make a living in the western culture. ISKCON itself, in part due to the influence of the Indians, has structured the temple communities in the west in a similar format or model as Indian temples, where you have a few pujaris and so-called brahmans in the temple, and everyone else is a congregational member. When I first moved back to Vancouver, I approached Hari Vilasa dasa, then the GBC here, indicating that I'd like to get fully involved. I even came up with a whole plan on how I could do that. He responded by saying, "don't you know that everyone is part-time now? That included Hari Vilasa himself, who was part-time GBC while running a business on the side. The current temple leader, who I believe still holds the Temple Vice President title, also runs a successful business, and for the most part, the only full-time members are either paid a salary or stipend, or are allowed to occupy little cubbyholes in the temple outbuildings. The leaders set it up this way, but a look around at the state of disrepair on the temple property makes it clear that the system is not working. The management structure at Vancouver appears to be due to the influence of those from India. Granted, they are the ones contributing most of the money for the upkeep of the temple. On account of their business endeavours they are able to make these contributions. Unfortunately, they seem to not understand Srila Prabhupada's idea, which was that if you want to simply execute Krsna consciousness and live a simple life, then you can live at the temple. That was his invitation, and everyone was welcome who was willing to do that. Of course, today that's not the case. The temple is there for the benefit and support of the congregational members who by and large, come once or twice a week. There's little of the old spirit of going out on daily sankirtana, harinam or book distribution, and the preaching has dwindled greatly. Consequently, the recruiting of westerners has diminished. Now I'm not trying to blame the Indians, because they have a culture, just as in the west we have our culture. Their culture effects how they see the world and live their life. And there are downsides, to say the least, in the western culture, even as it impacts the individuals who join and participate from the west. Their cultural impact has some serious downsides, as well. But it appears that Srila Prabhupada was taking advantage of and enjoying the results in terms of his efforts to spread Krsna consciousness to what he referred to as the materially exhausted youth of the west. They were willing, at least during his lila period, to forgo all their future to assist with his transcendental mission. Most of us didn't really understand what we were doing, but from Srila Prabhupada's point of view, and I suppose from the point of view of most Indians, that's exactly what we were doing… giving up our mundane futures. It's very difficult later in life, when youthful energy is dispersed, to get a start materially, to pursue family and business, and so on. The heartbreak experienced by westerners such as myself is due to the fact that we weren't pure, but we were idealistic, so we assumed that Srila Prabhupada's vision or dream would continue to expand and develop in the way that it appeared to us, and in the way that Srila Prabhupada was actually describing. In other words, big devotee communities where we could continue on in the same lifestyle we enjoyed while Srila Prabhupada was here. Of course, we also had the expectation that it would improve in many respects. After all, there is a Vedic model that Srila Prabhupada was presenting based on varnasrama, and the early communities appeared to be very successful, especially places like New Vrindaban and urban centers like Los Angeles and New York In fact, most temples were not simply temples at all, but were truly devotee communities. Today, we know that Srila Prabhupada's dream has evaporated without anyone having any grounds to protest. I know that the leaders think this is a good thing. They've led us to believe that this is what Srila Prabhupada wanted, and that it was inevitable, or other such excuses. You never really hear them admit the truth in this regard, and it is a dilemma that's not easily resolved when you no longer have a maha-bhagavat Acarya in his manifested lila to sort the problems out for you. How things will continue to evolve in ISKCON is hard to imagine. The leaders are clearly not following Srila Prabhupada's model, nor do they aspire to have ISKCON go in that direction at all. And because most of the leaders are gurus themselves, they look up to the big successful gurus, who are essentially Zonal Acaryas, and secretly if not outwardly aspire to find themselves in just such a scenario. The evolution of ISKCON here in Canada, and elsewhere in the U.S. is that many of the smaller temples are turning into family temples, along the lines of the Indian model. This is true even at some of the big, original temples like Los Angeles. Vancouver seems to be headed that way, and Calgary, Edmonton and Regina, are all essentially family temples now. This phenomenon is but one aspect of the Hindu-ization of ISKCON, and it clearly is not in keeping with Srila Prabhupada's plan. By Rocan dasa (Sampradaya Sun Editor) Note, it seems anyone who questions ISKCON is called a fault finder. Well, thank God we have devotees like Rocana dasa who keeps ISKCON in check. The fact that Dandavats printed Kurma dasa ACBSP article is the proof they all read Sampradaya Sun and without a doubt, the present imature watered down version of ISKCON DO TAKE NOTICE and find it hard to pull the wool over the eyes of sincere devotees.

Quote - The Vedic Mayapur Planetarim tells us what the material world really looks like if we could see the subtle and gross realities What would this world look like if we could also see the subtle material world of ethereal material bodies as well as the biological material bodies we are presently restricted of only percieving? What would the material world look like if we could see souls in their sub-space dimension contained in ethereal material vessels, that takes up more of the mahat-tattva (material creation) than our secular gross world of biological bodies? Even though there is still a lot to learn on this subject of what the material universes really look like. The anciet historical Vedic texts gives us some insight into how the mundane universe really looks. The way to discover the truth of how the material creation really looks, is found by studing the Vedic texts. Understnding this subject has been pioneered by His Grace Sadaputa Dasa (Richard L. Thompson) and inspired by Srila Prabhupada. The Vedic Planetarim project will be able to clearly explain the Vedic view of the Cosmos however, the public must understand the material scientists are only able to see a restricted view of the world through their biological material body and its technological extentions, The Vedic view on the other hand, takes in the subtle material world as well, where the ethereal vessels or bodies the souls are contained in within that sub-space material reality, is not visibe to the naked biological eye of our gross world. For example, many will rightly say, there is no way that the Sun we see in the sky, is closer than the moon, at least on the secular level that our biological senses are tuned into. Now that’s where the problem is, are we seeing the full picture of the material universe with our biological senses and the gross material technological instruments we use to enhance the view our biological bodies have? Even the material scientists say the majority of the universe is made up of dark matter that they have no idea what it is. When Srila Prabhupada was discussing the fifth canto in Vrndavana with his disciples the verse spoke about 10,000 mile high mountains. Srila Prabhupada said, “Yes, I have seen once when we were flying over the mountains of Europe.” The devotees asked “You mean the Alps?” Srila Prabhupada said “Yes” The devotees started to repeatedly deny that such a mountain could exist because by now the scientists would certainly have found such a thing. Finally Srila Prabhupada forcefully laid his hand down upon the table and roared “I HAVE SEEN! AND YOU CANNOT SEE!” This is an important point, only the perfected realized soul can see the secular and subtle material realities simultaneously, and can also can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Sri Radha Krishna, the source of everyone and everything at every moment. Only advanced souls, who understand this, can see the multidimensional aspects of the universe like a 10,000-mile high mountain We perceive with our biological bodies and its extended instrumentation of telescopic, radar and microwave instruments, to view the universe ‘we only can perceive’ that is made out of secular gross matter however, we are unable to see, feel, touch, with our gross biological senses, the rest of the multi dimensional universe that overlaps the same space. Frankly, our material science is primitive because, like the old black and white TVs we could only view in Australia in the 1960s, we only could see part of the picture, we were not able to tune into the picture as it really is in colour, similarly we are only presently seeing the secular or gross material energy of biological species of life and are unable to see the material creation as it really is with where the living entity is housed in ethereal bodies within a subtle world. The only way to really have a correct understanding of the material universe, or understand our position in the mahat-tattva, is to see the bigger picture of ALL the material creation with its subtle and gross realities (heavenly planets, middle planets and hellish worlds and ghostly realms) THAT ARE ALL AROUND US. To do that, one must become a devotee of the Lord. Only through devotional piety can such things be realized and not by material gross instruments and work. Presently on this planet there is close to a billion mobile phones or cell phones, with camera facilities. Such gross material devices will never tune into the subtle world because such a world cannot be visualized and presented as evidence or proof that such a world does exist. Such a world can never be proven with gross material emplements or biological senses. At John Lennon’s Mansion in England in 1970, Srila Prabhupada began waving his came around, non of the devotee new what was happening because they could not see what Prabhupada was seeing, which was annoying ghosts. So the conclusion is, we are presently not seeing the planet for what it really looks like, with its multidimensional and subtle realities as well as the biological level we percieve and can only use to prove our experiences to others. The following is an attempt to describe the material universe by Sadaputa Prabhu as it really looks, if we could see the subtle aspect of the material creation as well. http://www.unitedindia.com/cosmology.htm Hare Krishna From your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa

The dogs may bark but the caravan continues on

An interesting read and some valid points to consider.

Why does Vishnu and His dear servants in Vaikuntha have four arms and why does Krishna and His intimate associates have two arms in Goloka Vrndavana?

Fully agree bhaktajan, material science is atheistic however, I cannot deny what I have experienced with technology, like when I visted the Parks radio telescope in central NSW, I saw for myself how a beacon placed on the moon during the moon landings of 1970 and recent unmaned moon landings, messurd the distance from the earth to the moon. Did you know when the Wright Brothers first experienced flight in 1903, the headlines in the Catholic Newspaper condemned such a flight claiming if God meant for us to fly, he would of created us with wings. We should seek answers and not just follow blindly Both material and spiritual processess in this material world can be cleverly manipulated by the cheaters and cheated

<CENTER>Ancient India's Contribution to Cosmology The Cosmology of the Bhagavata Purana By: Richard L. Thompson An Overview </CENTER>The inquisitive human mind naturally yearns to understand the universe and man’s place within it. Today scientists rely on powerful telescopes and sophisticated computers to formulate cosmological theories. In former times, people got their information from traditional books of wisdom. Followers of India’s ancient culture, for example, learned about the cosmos from scriptures like the Srimad-Bhagavatam, or Bhagavata Purana. But the Bhagavatam’s descriptions of the universe often baffle modern students of Vedic literature. Here Bhaktivedanta Institute scientist Dr. Richard Thompson suggests a framework for understanding the Bhagavatam’s descriptions that squares with our experience and modern discoveries. Jambudvipa: The Srimad-Bhagavatam describes that the universe lies within a series of spherical shells which is divided in two by an earth plane called Bhu-mandala. A series of dvipas, or ‘islands,’ and oceans make up Bhu-mandala. In the center of Bhu-mandala is the circular ‘island’ of Jambudvipa (inset), whose most prominent feature is the cone-shaped Mount Meru. The main illustration here shows a closer view of Jambudvipa and the base of Mount Meru. The Srimad-Bhagavatam presents an earth-centered conception of the cosmos. At first glance the cosmology seems foreign, but a closer look reveals that not only does the cosmology of the Bhagavatam describe the world of our experience, but it also presents a much larger and more complete cosmological picture. I’ll explain. The Srimad-Bhagavatam’s mode of presentation is very different from the familiar modern approach. Although the Bhagavatam’s "Earth" (disk-shaped Bhu-mandala) may look unrealistic, careful study shows that the Bhagavatam uses Bhu-mandala to represent at least four reasonable and consistent models: (1) a polar-projection map of the Earth globe, (2) a map of the solar system, (3) a topographical map of south-central Asia, and (4) a map of the celestial realm of the demigods. Caitanya Mahaprabhu remarked, "In every verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam and in every syllable, there are various meanings." (Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya 24.318) This appears to be true, in particular, of the cosmological section of the Bhagavatam, and it is interesting to see how we can bring out and clarify some of the meanings with reference to modern astronomy. Figure 1 When one structure is used to represent several things in a composite map, there are bound to be contradictions. But these do not cause a problem if we understand the underlying intent. We can draw a parallel with medieval paintings portraying several parts of a story in one composition. For example, Masaccio’s painting "The Tribute Money" (Figure 1) shows Saint Peter in three parts of a Biblical story. We see him taking a coin from a fish, speaking to Jesus, and paying a tax collector. From a literal standpoint it is contradictory to have Saint Peter doing three things at once, yet each phase of the Biblical story makes sense in its own context. A similar painting from India (Figure 2) shows three parts of a story about Krishna. Such paintings contain apparent contradictions, such as images of one character in different places, but a person who understands the story line will not be disturbed by this. The same is true of the Bhagavatam, which uses one model to represent different features of the cosmos. Figure 2 The Bhagavatam Picture at First Glance The Fifth Canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam tells of innumerable universes. Each one is contained in a spherical shell surrounded by layers of elemental matter that mark the boundary between mundane space and the unlimited spiritual world. The region within the shell (Figure 3) is called the Brahmanda, or "Brahma egg." It contains an earth disk or plane—called Bhu-mandala—that divides it into an upper, heavenly half and a subterranean half, filled with water. Bhu-mandala is divided into a series of geographic features, traditionally called dvipas, or "islands," varshas, or "regions," and oceans. In the center of Bhu-mandala (Figure 4) is the circular "island" of Jambudvipa, with nine varsha subdivisions. These include Bharata-varsha, which can be understood in one sense as India and in another as the total area inhabited by human beings. In the center of Jambudvipa stands the cone-shaped Sumeru Mountain, which represents the world axis and is surmounted by the city of Brahma, the universal creator. To any modern, educated person, this sounds like science fiction. But is it? Let’s consider the four ways of seeing the Bhagavatam’s descriptions of the Bhu-mandala. <TABLE id=table4 size="640"><TBODY><TR><TD size="334"> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD> Figure 3 </TD><TD> Figure 4 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> We begin by discussing the interpretation of Bhu-mandala as a planisphere, or a polar-projection map of the Earth globe. This is the first model given by the Bhagavatam. A stereographic projection is an ancient method of mapping points on the surface of a sphere to points on a plane. We can use this method to map a modern Earth globe onto a plane, and the resulting flat projection is called a planisphere (Figure 5). We can likewise view Bhu-mandala as a stereographic projection of a globe (Figure 6). <TABLE id=table6 size="640"><TBODY><TR><TD size="334"> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD><CENTER>Figure 5</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>Figure 6</CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> In India such globes exist. In the example shown here (Figure 7), the land area between the equator and the mountain arc is Bharata-varsha, corresponding to greater India. India is well represented, but apart from a few references to neighboring places, this globe does not give a realistic map of the Earth. Its purpose was astronomical, rather than geographical. <CENTER> Figure 7</CENTER>Although the Bhagavatam doesn’t explicitly describe the Earth as a globe, it does so indirectly. For example, it points out that night prevails diametrically opposite to a point where it is day. Likewise, the sun sets at a point opposite where it rises. Therefore, the Bhagavatam does not present the naive view that the Earth is flat. We can compare Bhu-mandala with an astronomical instrument called an astrolabe, popular in the Middle Ages. On the astrolabe, an off-centered circle represents the orbit of the sun—the ecliptic. The Earth is represented in stereographic projection on a flat plate, called the mater. The ecliptic circle and important stars are represented on another plate, called the rete. Different planetary orbits could likewise be represented by different plates, and these would be seen projected onto the Earth plate when one looks down on the instrument. The Bhagavatam similarly presents the orbits of the sun, the moon, planets, and important stars on a series of planes parallel to Bhu-mandala. Seeing Bhu-mandala as a polar projection is one example of how it doesn’t represent a flat Earth. Bhu-mandala as a Map of the Solar System Here’s another way to look at Bhu-mandala that also shows that it’s not a flat-Earth model. Descriptions of Bhu-mandala have features that identify it as a model of the solar system. In the previous section I interpreted Bhu-mandala as a planisphere map. But now, we’ll take it as a literal plane. When we do this, it looks at first like we’re back to the naive flat Earth, with the bowl of the sky above and the underworld below. The scholars Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend carried out an intensive study of myths and traditions and concluded that the so-called flat Earth of ancient times originally represented the plane of the ecliptic (the orbit of the sun) and not the Earth on which we stand. Later on, according to de Santillana and von Dechend, the original cosmic understanding of the earth was apparently lost, and the Earth beneath our feet was taken literally as a flat plate. In India, the earth of the Puranas has often been taken as literally flat. But the details given in the Bhagavatam show that its cosmology is much more sophisticated. Not only does the Bhagavatam use the ecliptic model, but it turns out that the disk of Bhu-mandala corresponds in some detail to the solar system (Figure 8). The solar system is nearly flat. The sun, the moon, and the five traditionally known planets—Mercury through Saturn—all orbit nearly in the ecliptic plane. Thus Bhu-mandala does refer to something flat, but it’s not the Earth. <CENTER> Figure 8</CENTER>One striking feature of the Bhagavatam’s descriptions has to do with size. If we compare Bhu-mandala with the Earth, the solar system out to Saturn, and the Milky Way galaxy, Bhu-mandala matches the solar system closely, while radically differing in size from Earth and the galaxy. Furthermore, the structures of Bhu-mandala correspond with the planetary orbits of the solar system (Figure 9). <CENTER> Figure 9</CENTER>Figure 10 If we compare the rings of Bhu-mandala with the orbits of Mercury, Venus (Figure 10), Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, we find several close alignments that give weight to the hypothesis that Bhu-mandala was deliberately designed as a map of the solar system. Until recent times, astronomers generally underestimated the distance from the earth to the sun. In particular, Claudius Ptolemy, the greatest astronomer of classical antiquity, seriously underestimated the Earth-sun distance and the size of the solar system. It is remarkable, therefore, that the dimensions of Bhu-mandala in the Bhagavatam are consistent with modern data on the size of the sun’s orbit and the solar system as a whole. [see BTG, Nov./Dec. 1997.] Jambudvipa as a Topographical Map of South-Central Asia Jambudvipa, the central hub of Bhu-mandala, can be understood as a local topographical map of part of south-central Asia. This is the third of the four interpretations of Bhu-mandala. In the planisphere interpretation, Jambudvipa represents the northern hemisphere of the Earth globe. But the detailed geographic features of Jambudvipa do not match the geography of the northern hemisphere. They do, however, match part of the Earth. Figure 11 Six horizontal and two vertical mountain chains divide Jambudvipa into nine regions, or varshas (Figure 11). The southernmost region is called Bharata-varsha. Careful study shows that this map corresponds to India plus adjoining areas of south-central Asia. The first step in making this identification is to observe that the Bhagavatam assigns many rivers in India to Bharata-varsha. Thus Bharata-varsha represents India. The same can be said of many mountains in Bharata-varsha. In particular, the Bhagavatam places the Himalayas to the north of Bharata-varsha in Jambudvipa (Figure 11). A detailed study of Puranic accounts allows the other mountain ranges of Jambudvipa to be identified with mountain ranges in the region north of India. Although this region includes some of the most desolate and mountainous country in the world, it was nonetheless important in ancient times. For example, the famous Silk Road passes through this region. The Pamir mountains can be identified with Mount Meru and Ilavrita-varsha, the square region in the center of Jambudvipa. (Note that Mount Meru does not represent the polar axis in this interpretation.) Other Puranas give more geographical details that support this interpretation. Bhu-mandala as a Map of the Celestial Realm of the Devas We can also understand Bhu-mandala as a map of the celestial realm of the demigods, or devas. One curious feature of Jambudvipa is that the Bhagavatam describes all of the varshas other than Bharata-varsha as heavenly realms, where the inhabitants live for ten thousand years without suffering. This has led some scholars to suppose that Indians used to imagine foreign lands as celestial paradises. But the Bhagavatam does refer to barbaric peoples outside India, such as Huns, Greeks, Turks, and Mongolians, who were hardly thought to live in paradise. One way around this is to suppose that Bharata-varsha includes the entire Earth globe, while the other eight varshas refer to celestial realms outside the Earth. This is a common understanding in India. But the simplest explanation for the heavenly features of Jambudvipa is that Bhu-mandala was also intended to represent the realm of the devas. Like the other interpretations we have considered, this one is based on a group of mutually consistent points in the cosmology of the Bhagavatam. First of all, consider the very large sizes of mountains and land areas in Jambudvipa. For example, India is said to be 72,000 miles (9,000 yojanas) from north to south, or nearly three times the circumference of the Earth. Likewise, the Himalayas are said to be 80,000 miles high. <CENTER> Figure 12</CENTER>People in India in ancient times used to go in pilgrimage on foot from one end of India to the other, so they knew how large India is. Why does the Bhagavatam give such unrealistic distances? The answer is that Jambudvipa doubles as a model of the heavenly realm, in which everything is on a superhuman scale. The Bhagavatam portrays the demigods and other divine beings that inhabit this realm to be correspondingly large. Figure 12 shows Lord Siva in comparison with Europe, according to one text of the Bhagavatam. Figure 13 Why would the Bhagavatam describe Jambudvipa as both part of the earth and part of the celestial realm? Because there’s a connection between the two. To understand, let’s consider the idea of parallel worlds. By siddhis, or mystic perfections, one can take shortcuts across space. This is illustrated by a story from the Bhagavatam in which the mystic yogini Citralekha abducts Aniruddha from his bed in Dvaraka and transports him mystically to a distant city (Figure 13). Besides moving from one place to another in ordinary space, the mystic siddhis enable one to travel in the all-pervading ether or to enter another continuum. The classical example of a parallel continuum is Krishna’s transcendental realm of Vrindavana, said to be unlimitedly expansive and to exist in parallel to the finite, earthly Vrindavana in India. <TABLE id=table10 align=right><TBODY><TR><TD> Figure 14 </TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> The Sanskrit literature abounds with stories of parallel worlds. For example, the Mahabharata tells the story of how the Naga princess Ulupi abducted Arjuna while he was bathing in the Ganges River (Figure 14). Ulupi pulled Arjuna down not to the riverbed, as we would expect, but into the kingdom of the Nagas (celestial snakelike beings), which exists in another dimension. Mystical travel explains how the worlds of the devas are connected with our world. In particular, it explains how Jambudvipa, as a celestial realm of devas, is connected with Jambudvipa as the Earth or part of the Earth. Thus the double model of Jambudvipa makes sense in terms of the Puranic understanding of the siddhis. Concluding Observations: The Vertical Dimension in Bhagavata Cosmology For centuries the cosmology of the Bhagavatam has seemed incomprehensible to most observers, encouraging many people either to summarily reject it or to accept it literally with unquestioning faith. If we take it literally, the cosmology of the Bhagavatam not only differs from modern astronomy, but, more important, it also suffers from internal contradictions and violations of common sense. These very contradictions, however, point the way to a different understanding of Bhagavata cosmology in which it emerges as a deep and scientifically sophisticated system of thought. The contradictions show that they are caused by overlapping self-consistent interpretations that use the same textual elements to expound different ideas. Each of the four interpretations I’ve presented deserves to be taken seriously because each is supported by many points in the text that are consistent with one another while agreeing with modern astronomy. I’ve applied the context-sensitive or multiple-aspect approach, in which the same subject has different meanings in different contexts. This approach allows for the greatest amount of information to be stored in a picture or text, reducing the work required by the artist or writer. At the same time, it means that the work cannot be taken literally as a one-to-one model of reality, and it requires the viewer or reader to understand the different relevant contexts. This can be difficult when knowledge of context is lost over long periods of time. In the Bhavagatam, the context-sensitive approach was rendered particularly appropriate by the conviction that reality, in the ultimate issue, is avak-manasam, or beyond the reach of the mundane mind or words. This implies that a literal, one-to-one model of reality is unattainable, and so one may as well pack as much meaning as possible into a necessarily incomplete description of the universe. The cosmology of the Bhagavata Purana is a sophisticated system of thought, with multiple layers of meaning, both physical and metaphysical. It combines practical understanding of astronomy with spiritual conceptions to produce a meaningful picture of the universe and reality. Richard L. Thompson earned his Ph.D. in mathematics from Cornell University. He is the author of several books, of which Mysteries of the Sacred Universe is the most recent. <!--msnavigation-->

So the conclusion is we are presently not seeing the planet for how it really looks What would this world look like if we could see the subtle material world of ethereal bodies as well, where the souls in that sub-space dimension are contained in ethereal material vessels, that takes up more of the mahat-tattva than our secular gross world of biological bodies? Even though there is still a lot to learn, the following gives some insight into how the universe really looks. I believe there is still a lot of work to be 'discovered' within the Vedas on this subject and the author, Sadaputa Dasa (Richard L. Thompson) has still not been able to clearly explain to those who just do not naively or blindly accept his explanation of the Universe. For example, many will rightly say, there is no way that the Sun we see in the sky, is closer than the moon, at least on the secular level that our biological senses are on and can only comprehend, perceive and tune into. Now that’s where the problem is, are we seeing the full picture of the universe? Even the material scientists say the majority of the universe is made up of dark matter that they have no idea what it is. When Srila Prabhupada was discussing the fifth canto in Vrndavana with his disciples the verse spoke about 10,000 mile high mountains. Srila Prabhupada said, “Yes, I have seen once when we were flying over the mountains of Europe.” The devotees asked “You mean the Alps?” Srila Prabhupada said “Yes” The devotees started to repeatedly deny that such a mountain could exist because by now the scientists would certainly have found such a thing. Finally Srila Prabhupada forcefully laid his hand down upon the table and roared “I HAVE SEEN! AND YOU CANNOT SEE!” This is an important point, only the perfected realized soul can see the secular and subtle material realities simultaneously, and can also can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Sri Radha Krishna, the source of everyone and everything at every moment. Only advanced souls, who understand this, can see the multidimensional aspects of the universe like a 10,000-mile high mountain We perceive with our biological bodies and its extended instrumentation of telescopic, radar and microwave instruments, to view the universe ‘we only can perceive’ that is made out of secular gross matter however, we are unable to see, feel, touch, with our gross biological senses, the rest of the multi dimensional universe that overlaps the same space. Frankly, our material science is primitive because, like the old black and white TVs we could only view in Australia in the 1960s, we only could see part of the picture, we were not able to tune into the picture as it really is in colour, similarly we are only presently seeing the secular or gross material energy of biological species of life and are unable to see the material creation as it really is with where the living entity is housed in ethereal bodies within a subtle world. The only way to really have a correct understanding of the material universe, or understand our position in the mahat-tattva, is to see the bigger picture of ALL THE material creation with its subtle and gross realities (heavenly planets, middle planets and hellish worlds and ghostly realms) THAT ARE ALL AROUND US. To do that, one must become a great devotee of the Lord. Only through devotional piety can such things be realized and not by material gross instruments. Presently on this planet there is close to a billion mobile phones or cell phones as they call them in the US, with camera facilities. Such gross material devices will never tune into the subtle world of any kind. At John Lennon’s Mansion in England in 1970, Srila Prabhupada began waving his came around, non of the devotee new what was happening because they could not see what Prabhupada was seeing, which was annoying ghosts. So the conclusion is we are presently not seeing the planet for what it really looks like, with its multidimensional and subtle realities as well as the biological level we perceive. The following is an attempt to describe the material universe by Sadaputa Prabhu as it really looks, if we could see the subtle aspect of the material creation as well. _ http://www.unitedindia.com/cosmology.htm

Excellent understanding. The "Vedic Cosmology" that claims that the Earth actually is not spinning around its axis, is misunderstood and based on a the immature ISKCON pioneering endevours to understand this material creation, which is more sentiment (blind faith) than FULL scientific regarding the Earth axis, Moon and Sun issues. ISKCON will have to face these facts in a very clear scientific way sooner or later BEFORE THEY BUILD THE vEDIC PLANETARIUN. Man also went to the moon in 1969 however, they never entered the ethereal world of that heavenly planet. It is also nonsense to believe that the Moon we see is further away from the earth than the Sun, such superstitious nonsense only keeps man under the thumb of dictatorial religious leaders. It's all a crazy selfish material dream anyway, maybe there are unlimited parallel universe with every possible scenario happening simultaneously, for example, in one universe, a bus hit you, and in this universe, the bus missed you. Maybe the Vedas were written in a parallel universe where the Sun IS closer than the moon. Wow, it’s so easy to brainwash people.

I do, Aniruddha Prabhu is doing a great service there in Melbourne. I just sent him an email an hour ago. As far as Kurma (not the chef) is concerned, it seems everyone has their own opinion. I'm no saint, I get disillusioned sometimes and fault find as well. But gradually I am learning that only constructive words can help, not destructive Calling you an idiot was foolish and childish. On the same note, help ISKCON, don’t hinder Prabhupada’s Movement with our bitchy frustrations. Actually I thank you for helping me realize WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF WE HUMBLY, SINCERELY AND GENUINELY TRY.

I'm no Vaishnava; I'm trying to be one. Being Vaishnava in not cheap. I just remember your last attack on me when I criticized Kurma (not the chef) for his silly comments about Melbourne Temple. However, you can see Kurma dasa ACBSP is not happy with him either. If you genuinly made a mistake, then I apologise.