Vigraha

Sorry about the dung-stuff,

 

I sent wrong message to the wrong thread..

Thats funny, it made me laugh very loud, a good example of free will on our realm of consciousness

BG 18.61 is rather explicit in this regard. There seems to be no free will at all, according to this verse, where the Lord says the jiva-s are impelled or pushed into action by His mAyA. The word bhraamayan literally means that. Elsewhere, Krishna also tells Arjuna to be an instrument, 'nimitta-mAtram bhava' or something to that effect.

 

Doesn't all this mean Krishna is the only doer, and we're just his instruments. If one argues that we exercise free will even in writing this post, then these actions are similar to the "actions" performed by an instrument in the hands of an able doer. Even if it appears to move and act, the instrument isn't doing anything, it's ever the non-doer.

 

Similarly, are we also non-doers even though we appear to do all kinds of actions? Is this the meaning of BG 18.61?

 

Your thoughts welcome.

There is free will but things can appear to be set, for example when Krsna showed Arjuna the Universal form, Arjuna saw everything that would eventually happen, he saw past, present and future all at once.

Regardless of that there is free will, at least we believe we do have free will but that is a paradox because one can also see past, present and future if they become self realized, but if one is a devotee of Krsna, then he is sees things differently again according to ones service.

It depends on what level of consciousness we view things.

Personally I believe the bodies we are in are set on a fixed path according to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, we as the soul, are just going along for the ride in these vessels that we have earned, desired and deserved over millions of life times.

In other words the mahat-tattva is a paradox where free will and fixed paths are happening simultaneously

We believe we have free will due to ignorance, but everything we do, is actually performed by the material body that is controlled by higher beings or demigods.

The REAL meaning of free will is the CHOOSE to serve Krishna Goloka or chase Maya in the mahat-tattva.<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>r chase Maya in the mahat-tattva.

Maha-Vishnu and Shiva are Vishnu-tattva. Maha-Vishnu created the mahat-tattva and Lord Shiva is his greatest devotee - It's all lila, Krishna manifesting in different forms, except for Brahma who is jiva-tattva.

Remember the shooting incident in Mayapur in 1977? Iskcon property was attacked by the locals because Bhavs molested a local kid .

What a lot of nonsense, get your facts right! In 1977 the local Muslims attacked the Mayapur temple after Nitai Chand dasa beat up one them for stealing, it had nothing to do with what your on about. Some of the attacking Muslims were shot and killed

Wow! and who made these practicing homosexuals and deviants into gurus in the first place? No responsibility there? None? But Sridhara Maharaja is somehow co-responsible because he supported what Srila Prabhupada implemented???

Thats nonsense, Bhavanananda did have problems in 1974 but redemed himself and Prabhupada forgave him. His problems again happened after Prabhupadaa had left the planet. Prabhupadas view on sex life of all kinds (wet stool and dry stool) is well documented but it needs a little Krishna Consciousness to undertand that.

Also I met Sridar Maharaj on many occasions and always remember how envious his few disciple were of ISKCON, how they tried to minimize what Prabhupada had achieved

Its silly pointing the finger when Sridar Maharaj was known as a breaker of institutions. The Gudiya Matha had been in ruins and stagnated since the 1930s. Before Srila Prabhupada brought Krishna to the West, no one outside India (practically) had ever heard of the Gaudiya Math, and even in India, the Gaudiya Math was in ruins, lost to obscurity, a far cry from the once prominent Vaishnava preaching mission it was in the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur.

Immediately after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's disappearance, the disobedient disciples fought over successorship and took it to the courts to decide. Forty years later, court cases were still going on, but in the meantime, the disciples had taken it into their own hands to name themselves acharyas. These men were so insignificant, they were barely known outside of West Bengal. Prabhupada's ISKCON on the other had became well known ALL OVER THE WORLD

Srila Prabhupada kept himself away from these useless people, who anyway regarded him as a lowly householder. When at last Srila Prabhupada came to America, he had no help from his godbrothers; in fact they discouraged him--either with their silence or with their counsel that he should return to Vrindaban and admit failure in his mission.

When Srila Prabhupada brought back his first disciples to India, he put Vrindaban and Navadwip on the map. It is Srila Prabhupada who gave life to Vrindaban. Before that time, Vrindaban had scarcely any trade; it was a humble little village, just one of so many thousands of pilgrimage sites.

Now Vrindaban is a thriving, bustling town, the streets lined with merchants, pilgrims arriving by bus loads and train loads, and property prices have soared. Whereas Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur's once glorious Gaudiya Math had crumbled to pieces, now came Srila Prabhupada with a whole new blood line under the standard of ISKCON.

Srila Prabhupada's movement brought life and prosperity to everyone in Vrindaban and Navadwip, materially and spiritually.

It is only since the departure of Srila Prabhupada and the disintegration of the institutional ISKCON that the impotent Gaudiya Math acharyas like Narayana Marahraj have appeared on the scene and attempted to make out he was ISKCON WHEN HE IS CLEARLY NOTHING LIKE SRILA PRABHUPADA

 

Also, you do not realize how great Srila Prabhupada's appearance is. Lord Caitanya and his close associates of whom most were Vishnu tattva, came for Lila

 

The spreading of the Sankirtan Movement was left to their disciples and grand disciples etc. And the greatest preacher of all of them over the last 500 years, that includes Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, was AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

And the proof of that is none of us would of known about Gaudiya Vaisnavism without the teachings of srila Prabhupada. This is why out of all the parampara Guru's, he is the greatest for his world wide preaching.

 

No one in history, including God himself (Sri Caitanya) has been a greater preacher of the holy names than Srila Prabhupada

 

When are you going to realize how great and rare a soul like Srila Prabhupada is?

 

Also are you a Prabhupada disciple?

Ahmen (HARE KRSNA) All glorious to Prabhupada

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The above is true but can be explained as follows from "unknown author"

"In all fairness and honesty, the most probably reason very few did not speak or even recognise the truth all those years ago is, we were too young, inexperienced and immature to know any better. When Prabhupada left us in 1977, the average age of the devotees was only 26 years old. In India at that age one is still considered just boys and girls

Therefore, many also felt they were too fallen, useless and afraid to speak out about what little truth they new and expose the childish lies and difficult struggles of other very young devotees, who were also still learning how to be leaders and Gurus.

So they remained silent and lived the sentimental lie because they did not know any better, and look what happened - It turned out to be a very hard way to learn a lesson.

In other words we were not smart enough to learn through knowledge of the Veda, So we had to learn the hard way by trial and era

The fact is all the problems ISKCON faced in those years after 1977 was simply due to inexperience and immaturity.

These things happened due to the arrogence of our youth that convienced us we new EVERYTHING, their was no plan of deceit by anyone in the Temple, at least not in Australia and certainly not by me even though I did struggle as revealed in a letter Prabhupada sent me.

In all fairness there was an innocents back then that was in all the devotees because when one is young, as we all were back then, our ideals were very strong, we were very young and inexperienced in our attempts to understand and follow an age old religion.

There is a point and lesson in all this, don't let anyone tell you what you can, and cannot do if it shastically does not make sense!! Which means one has to learn and study Srila Prabhupada’s books so anyone, aspiring devotees or karmis does not treat one like a mushroom and used or mislead

And certainly never ever remain silent when you see things are not quite right, no matter how fallen you are.

The old immature ways and sentimental ideas in ISKCON have to be out grown if we are to learn and go forward instead of remaining stagnant within the realms of our pioneering immaturity years"

Speak the Truth when all are speaking lies?

Therefore, many felt they were too fallen, useless and affraid to speak out about what little truth they new and expose the childish lies and difficult struggles of other very young devotees, who were also still learning how to be leaders and Gurus.

So they remained silent and lived the sentimental lie because they did not know any better, and look what happened - The hard way to learn a lesson.

In other words we were not smart enough to learn through knowledge of the Veda, we had to learn the hard way by trial and era

It was simply inexperience and immaturity these things happened, their was no plan of deceit by anyone in the Temple.

In all fairness, there was an special innocents back then that was in all the devotees because, when we were young, as we all were back then, our ideals and dreams of a new world order of Lord Caitanya were very strong, we were actually very young, innocent and inexperienced in our attempts to understand and follow an age old religion.

Maybe this is why so few spoke up in the past in early ISKCON when they saw wrong and lies going on, they simply did not know any better.

Many felt they were too fallen, usesless and affraid to speak out the the little truth they did understand and expose the childish lies and difficult struggles of other very young devotees, who were still learning how to be leaders and Gurus?

It was simply inexperience and immaturity these things happened, their was no plan of deceit by anyone in the Temple including myself.

However, without the flowery poetry in beautuful words of a great devotee of the Lord, which are nice, my point is simple and for the simple minded -

Never ever remain silent when you see things are not quite right, no matter how fallen you are.

Hare Krsna

When all are doing wrong, be the first to do right, or just keep silent??.

Well, the answer is no.

In this day and age and in this time and place, if I am struggling and ARE doing wrong, and then if I see others also doing wrong, then regardless of my fallen state, I will NOT remain silent, I will strongly and aggressively, if need be, speak out against the same things that have degraded me.

Frankly the above comment and many scriptual quotes can unfortunately be twisted and resemble a fascist statement to control the thoughtful thinking of others because it is a clever way to get others to never critize their leaders.

Do you really think that because one is not perfect and fallen, one should ignore all the faults in any other devotees or leaders and remain silent by not exposing and telling others about their struggle with Maya?

Maybe this is why so few spoke up in the past in early ISKCON when they saw wrong and lies, that back many believed as truth, going on.

In all fairness and honesty, the most probably reason very few did not speak or even recognise the truth all those years ago is,, we were too young, inexperienced and immature to know any better. When Prabhupada left us in 1977, the average age of the devotees was 26 years old

Therefore, many felt they were too fallen, useless and affraid to speak out about what little truth they new and expose the childish lies and difficult struggles of other very young devotees, who were also still learning how to be leaders and Gurus.

So they remained silent and lived the sentimental lie because they did not know any better, and look what happened - The hard way to learn a lesson.

In other words we were not smart enough to learn through knowledge of the Veda, we had to learn the hard way by trial and era

It was simply inexperience and immaturity these things happened, their was no plan of deceit by anyone in the Temple, at least not in Australia and certainly not by me even though I did struggle as revealed in a letter Prabhupada sent me

In all fairness there was an innocents back then that was in all the devotees because when one is young, as we all were back then, our ideals were very strong, we were very young and inexperienced in our attempts to understand and follow an age old religion.

Anyway, such a comment as "When all are doing wrong, be the first to do right, or just keep silent" also reminds me of an old Prabhupada disciple back in the 70s, who is actually a very nice old grandfather devotee today. But back then he always said such naive comments due to his youthful immaturity to just force you to do as he said. With his infamous saying 'SURENDER PRABHOOO' which really means to him, just do what I tell you to do and don't argue, question it or think.about it

In 1971 every time I touched the mrdunga he would harshly say

"Leave that drum alone, you don't know how to play it, so don't touch it"

My obvious reply to this devotee was

"If I don't touch the mrdunga drum, how am I going to learn?"

He just ignored me, so when he was not around, I practised on the drum anyway, ignoring his request and taught myself.

So Prabhupada arrived a few months later and lead the kirtan in the Temple room, and yes I was playing mrdunga while the devotee who previously would not let me play the drum, was cooking in the kitchen.

While cooking another devotee said to him,

"Well it looks like he can touch the drum now, seeing he can play it"

There is a point and lesson in all this, don't let anyone tell you what you can and cannot do if it shastically does not make sense!! Which means one has to learn and study Srila Prabhupada’s books so one is not treated like a mushroom by anyone, aspiring devotees or karmis

And certainly never ever remain silent when you see things are not quite right, no matter how fallen you are.

The old immature ways and sentimental ideas in ISKCON have to be out grown if we are to learn and go forward instead of remaining stagnant within the realms of our pioneering immaturity years

HARE KRSNA

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by mahak

Srila Prabhupada pioneered ISKCON, not the post disappearance items you write about.

Early pastimes mean body surfing with Prabhupada or having him joke around with disciples who doubled as his friends. Or how he thwarted the false egos of some who thought they were greatly advanced in his presence (One should always associate with guru as a fool.)

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I like that, very very true, but history must be undertood so the mistakes of the past never happen again

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>On a mass scale the media were right into Bhavananda, they glorified Bhavananda on a level in Ausralia in the media that was not happening anywhere else on the planet, he was loved by the Television news, papers, magazines and radio, the media wanted more and more of Bhavananda and if he never fell down, if it was real, or even became real, his charisma would of attracted millions in Australia.

That was already happening, but unfortuanately is wasn't real and his fall down actually disappointed many in the media who greatly liked him.

Lord Caitanta wants it to be real and not lead by someone who imitates a pure devotee.

One thing is certain, many of us had a glimps of what it would be like if another pure devotee like Srila Prabhupada, preached the pure message of Lord Caitanya.

It would be beyond our wildest dream

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. The zonal (regional) secretary system introduced by Prabhupada was naturally transformed into the zonal guru system when these zonal secretaries became gurus on Prabhupada's order.

 

In itself, that was not a bad system. Problem was that these people were eventually corrupted by the absolute power, fame, profit, and sense gratification that came with it.

 

The personality cultism previously centered on Prabhupada was now transformed into the zonal "acharya" personality cultism.?

On a mass scale the media were right into Bhavananda, they glorified Bhavananda on a level in Ausralia in the media that was not happening anywhere else on the planet, he was loved by the Television news, papers, magazines and radio, the media wanted more and more of Bhavananda and if he never fell down, if it was real, or even became real, his charisma would of attracted millions in Australia.

That was already happening, but unfortuanately is wasn't real and his fall down actually disappointed many in the media who greatly liked him.

Lord Caitanta wants it to be real and not lead by someone who imitates a pure devotee. One thing is certain, many of us had a glimps of what it would be like if another pure devotee like Srila Prabhupada, preached the pure message of Lord Caitanya. It would be beyond our wildest dream

Not even a brief reference to Bhava's active homosexuality?

Read it again prabhu, it is totally unedited, its there.

"It is only honest here to point out that Srila Sridhar Maharaj from the Gaudiya Math, not only supported the 11 Zonal Acaryas in ISKCON late in 1977, but also encouraged them all to be initiating Spiritual Masters in the mood of Srila Prabhupada.

I witnessed this at his Gaudiya math Temple in 1978 when he glorified the new Zonal gurus in ISKCON.

Also Narayana Maharaj originally supported and encouraged the 11 gurus, regardless of what he says today. So as far as I am concerned, Narayana Maharaj is just as naive and Spiritually immature as us Godbrothers were who also pushed the 11 guru worship that is really just an imitation of Srila Prabhupada, just like a child imitates their hero.

In all fairness though, at least two of them have proven themselves as bonafide Spiritual Masters, Srila Jayapartaka Swami and Srila Hridayananda Swami. They both have past the test of time

Also I remember way back in 1981 Ramai Swami (who was just elected the head of the GBC in 2008), got up and praised his sannyas guru Bhavananda at his Vysa Puj by saying he had specially come from Vaikuntha to save the fallen souls, Ramai had tears in his eyes as he spoke fondly of Bhavananda and was clearly very moved, he had really saw Bhavananda as specially coming down from Vaikuntha to carry on Prabhupada’s work of saving the fallen, this mood he instilled to others who eventually became Bhavananda’s disciples, this was video taped and I still have it in storage.

Clearly Ramai Swami had seen Bhavananda in the same light as Prabhupada, a pure devotee put in that position by Krsna.

In this way Ramai Swami, Chittahari, Balarama, Yasomatinandana, Pratapana, Hari Sauri, Subabhati, all of us Prabhupada disciples would strongly set the mood, ‘scene and example of worship to Bhavananda, for his new disciples to follow, especially Ramai Swami, who was also kind of a disciple of Bhavananda as well, due to taking sannyas off him.

Anyway the extravagant worship us Godbrothers created for Bhavananda, would last until 1986, when unfortunately the whole ‘guru’ thing came crashing down on our heads, resulting in utter confusion where at least one devotee I know of committed suicide.

Personally I never ever went that far to see Bhavananda specially sent from Vaikuntha because to me he was a Godbrother who represented Prabhupada that I blindly followed because I new he was a dear disciple of Srila Prabhupada, my Spiritual Master. I thought at the time however, how Ramai’s ‘over the top’ glorification of his Sannyas guru was eerie but I never said anything.

Bhavananda never ever saw himself as a great devotee, he always new he was playing a role, believing that imitating Prabhupada was his service, he believed that in time he would become purified and gradually become stronger and stronger in his sadhana, so that he could truly act as a Guru. He told me this when he sent me to see an old friend of his and present a garland to him (The famous singer Peter Allen)

Later he told me what Ramai had said is simply not true, "I am no pure devotee" telling me the story of how he suffered as a young boy.

Yet unfortunately, as years progressed, Bhavananda became more and more intoxicated by the lavish, luxurious, magnificent wealthy worship his Godbrothers set up and supported. Strongly encouraging any new devotee to follow. So gradually he became more and more inebriated proud and arrogant than he already was.

I already new in India back in 1978 of Bhavananda's problems with homosexuality, his incident in Mayapur a few years previous was well known in India, but Prabhupada forgave him for his fall down and he worked very hard, doing amazing service in Mayapur, to again get Prabhupada's favour.

Could it happen again? One could ask. Those questions were not ever asked back then by anyone like it is today. I did not know in 1978 if he would again have problems in that area when I was Temple commander of Vrndavan, but as early as 1982 I did know, I just new he was again having problems, I think a few of us did, I know Chittahari prabhu did, Bhavananda confided in him. Anyway who was I to judge others? I was struggling myself and ironically everyone new about that to

No one back then new what to do with anyone who was having a sexual problem, it was mostly ignored and never talked about. Of course that all changed in the mid 1990"s

Anyway in Vrndavana and Mayapur Bhavananda would get me to convince any new devotee that he should be chosen as guru.

It seemed back in those early immature years, to have a ‘hero’, then worship him as a pure devotee, even if he is not qualified, was more important at the time than having no hero at all.

This is because the search for paragons is a natural phenomenon within human society, if we cannot find one a qualified Guru, then we unfortunately manufacture one, just like we did after Prabhupada left us, we actually carried on the Guru worship as if Prabhupada had never left.

The appointed gurus where not qualified on the level of Prabhupada, yet we would worship them anyway ON THAT LEVEL with the hope they would become qualified, that’s how innocent we were but we genuinly believed that in time, due to the purification process of Bhakti-yoga, they would become pure devotees under the test of time.

We all quoted Prabhupada to support this by saying that Prabhupada gave Brahmin initiating to devotees saying,

“Now that I have given you Brahmin initiation, now become Brahmana”

All of us Godbrothers put a new twist on Prabhupada’s comment –

“Now that I have given you the authority to become initiating Guru, now become Guru”

I was too uneducated in Spiritual life and very insecure at the time to say anything, so I just went along with the 'chosen guru' thing for the ride, most of us Prabhupada disciples did because we new nothing else, we knew no better, the oldest devotees in the movement back in 1978 were in their thirties, it was kind of an innocent way we did this, our intentions were good, there was no plan to cheat anyone, we all wanted to see ISKCON grow. It’s a shame many tried to imitate Prabhupada back then rather than simply follow him. Back then we simply didn't know any better

You know, the preaching on the streets back then was way way better and more effective than it is today, the devotees back then were very dedicated selling books, not that they are not today however back then EVERY TEMPLE DEVOTEE AND GUEST was into selling books..

The fact is if most of the gurus never fell down, it could have worked, IT WAS WORKING, AT LEAST IN AUSTRALIA. But that was destined to eventually not be, it was destined to fail because of the way they were glorified.

They were worshiped like Prabhupada, better than Prabhupada was. It therefore failed because clearly none of them were anything like Prabhupada.

As another old saying goes, "No lie can live forever?

Another point that should be made to shut up the critics is, even the paraphernalia selling by devotee back them, like oil paintings, were necessary as it assisted preaching. Those who criticize such selling are wrong because so many preaching programs where financed by such selling, like putting one and a half million copies of a Hare Krishna magazine in all Australian Newspapers plus supporting the campaign to free Soviet devotees from jails.

Tirtharaj Prabhu once went out selling paintings and collected $800 in one day and donated all the money to the Prahlad and the Krishna kids project, so they could help other devotees around the world in the campaign to free Soviet devotees locked up in Russia, in early 1986 before they got the EMI contract.

Also in 1987-8 we collected 140,000 signatures around Australia on our Bus, (also financed by selling oil paintings) and along with the Krsna kids campaign, it helped secure the religious freedom in the Soviet Union, granted by the Soviet Government in 1988.

Anyway, back then I gradually learned what was going on behind the scene, Bhavananda was struggling to handle the extremely high level of worship he received, he certainly wasn't the pure devotee we all made him out to be to his disciples, but I was just struggling along myself, who was I to point the finger?

So I just glorified him like Ramai and all of my Godbrothers did, we had no idea the chaos of imitating a pure devotee would cause back then.

Back then we all thought we new everything, well I certainly didn’t, stronger minded Godbrothers arrogently made sure of that..(Actually now when I think about it now, it was only Bhavananda who stood up for me when other Godbrothers wanted to put me down) I therefore just followed my Godbrothers like Ramai Swami, who was totally innocently convinced he new absolutely everything, only so I could do the media service I was good at..

It's funny you now because Ramai had no choice in the matter in 1980, he was told by Bhavananda to take me travelling with him. In all fairness though, Ramai Swami took me on board himself in mid 1987 so I could help the devotees in both the Soviet preaching and the Hall programs we were having in Towns and Villages all over Ausralia.

In reality back then, we had the 'frog in the well' mentality, puffed up with the little knowledge we had, especially Ramai Swami, he thought he new everything, but now we can see how blind we all were back then, Ramai Swami had no idea how to lead and protect the lives of others. He did not know how to deal with or handle so many basic issues he new about, he new me better than I new myself at the time but still had no idea how too deal with me or anyone else for that matter. I was too insecure to not go along with it all, after all, ISKCON was my only family.

Personally Bhavananda treated me fine, over all the years he was always kind and encouraging to me, he never ever demanded worship off me; in fact in all fairness to him, it was his Godbrothers, including myself, who saw him as a substitute 'Prabhupada' so to speak, and then treated him like Prabhupada, building him up to be a 'Prabhupada' we called 'Vishnupada'. His Godbrothers gave him that name; he certainly never gave it to himself.

People can say what ever they like about him, but as far as I am concerned, I saw his love for Prabhupada and his sincerity. We have to take some of the blame for it all, as the saying goes,

• 'It's not just the bad people who cause problems in the world, but rather, it is all the good people who stand by and do nothing, letting bad things happen and just go on year after year'.

Devotees new what was going on in the 80s, but did nothing. It is certainly not ‘all’ Bhavananda’s fault either; his Godbrothers lavishly glorified him first before he had any disciples.

Also he never ever demanded respect and worship off me, although Ramai Swami always would DEMAND it with threats to kick you out of the Temple if you did not fall at his feet, he was very arrogant, demanding and secretive and no-one could ever get too close to him, he always treated me impersonally and always patronised me and others. On many occasions he would say “get down and bow when you see me coming’, he would demand proudly. Sadly he was a clever bully to those who were not submissive to him.

Anyway I never experienced that impersonalism with Bhavananda. It’s like Ramai had this invisible shield around him. I travelled with him for years like this and his 'coldness' was very frustrating. Even now he remains aloof from everyone even if his with them right in the middle of all the GBC men. Bhavananda was not like that. His Godbrothers, including myself, are to fault by taking his worship way over the top.

Once again, when Bhavananda was away from his disciples, he was a reasonable person; he never ever raised his voice in anger to me, even though he did to others.

I remember one time I became disturbed by what he did when I was Temple Commander of Vrndavana Temple in 1978. We used to go around to all the rooms in the Temple and Gurukula to see if they were clean in the morning, on this occasion, Bhavananda came for the inspection, all the Gurukulis were suppose to be in the Temple room chanting however, there was one room where two Gurukulis were still sleeping, Bhavananda went into a rage when he went into their room, picked one of the boys, Ananda Prabhu, who was 10 or 11 years old at the time, and threw him into the wall, then picked him up and did it a second time. I stood by and watched in surprise as I did not know nor experience that side of Bhavananda, after all his role as Guru had only just begun

What could I do, that’s just how it was in those days because that how we were treated when we went to school in the 50s and 60s. (I was 17 when I first went to the Temple in 1971) Bhavananda then turned to me and said “these boys need discipline, this place is not a free motel, make sure no one is in any of these rooms during the morning program”

In my mind I was thinking I should have warned the boys that Bhavananda was inspecting the gurukuli rooms with us as I new they were resting. Afterwards I went back to see if Ananda was alright, he had a hobby of reading books on airplanes and jets, which he was reading when I went into see him, he just carried on like nothing had happened’

Ananda Prabhu had a gash to his head that I treated and bandaged and some bruises on his body, I told him what had happened to him shocked me because I did not know Bhavananda could get so violent, as I was talking to him, Danavir, his school teacher, came in and yelled at him more for not attending the morning program.

• Later I took him down Loi Bazaar in Vrndavana and we had a kumba Lassi drink (the best place in the world to get this drink) and checked out all the shops, he new so much about Vrndavana, showing me the best places to buy dhotis, shirts and Deities, then we visited Prabhupada’s room at the Radha Damodar Temple, Ananda Prabhu told me how early in the morning Srila Prabhupada would translate Srimad Bhagavatam and then chant his rounds. Afterwards walking around the samadhis of Jiva Goswami and Rupa Goswami chanting Hare Krishna. We then went to Davanala Kund and swam with others boys, on the banks of the Kund was a Shiva lingum and Ananda Prabhu and an older boy Dvarkadisha das ACBSP explained how the young girls from the village came to worship the lingum. I remember thinking what the early British Christian missionaries must of thought on seeing such worship. I remember someone took photos of us all swimming at Davanala Kund, love to see those photos now

Anyway my memory of Ananda Prabhu is that he had so much knowledge about Vrndavana, he spoke Hindi fluently but also loved to read his books on planes. Other Gurukulis at the time would remember this, they where terrified of Bhavananda after this and so was I back then, why? Because I had nothing else and nowhere else to go. After all, I was only a lost and a pissed off teenager towards the world myself when I joined ISKCON. The movement became everything to me and today it still is".

 

 

What does it mean to be born into ISKCON?

 

 

Well, that begins at conception, what were the householder devotees thinking about during sex?

This is very important because ones conscious state at the time of conception determines what soul enters the womb however, there are other very important considerations also that have to be considered before an advanced soul or demigod chooses to take shelter of a womb.

 

Such DEMIGOD devotees of KRSNA can also see in advance, so if the parents and the ‘devotees’, their parents associate with and trust are NOT qualified by being Krsna Conscious enough to protect them from 21<SUP>st</SUP> century materialism, impersonalism, mayavadi philosophy, plus the psychological, emotional and sexual abuse that has disturbed many aspiring devotees in these pioneering years, as Ananda prabhu's story has revealed, they simply will not come.

 

The fact is the demigods will not take birth in ISKCON while such nonsense, and the inability to protect a devotee from birth, is not prevalent. Therefore, most probably, no demigods have taken birth anyway during these early pioneering years of Lord Caitanya's Movement. But who knows, some extremely tolerant souls may have taken birth and put up with the earlier nonsense just to be part of the pioneering years of ISKCON with Srila Prabhupada. Undoubtable there were some special humble souls who helped him

 

There is actually an example of a young 11-year-old gurukula boy back in the mid eighties (name with held) who is now a great preacher of Krishna Consciousness in Eastern Europe and Australia.

 

Apparently on a few occasions, some 'devotees' attempted to molester him sexually however, this boy stopped the attacks by chanting 'Sri Krsna Caitanya Prabhu Nityananda ... very loudly - VERY LOUDLY.

 

Every time the attempts were made, this young boy chanted like this. He kept chanting Hare Krsna, instinctively saying the HARE RAMA part of the mantra very, very loud.

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The attempts eventually stopped, and the boy was never physically abused again, although clearly he was emotionally and physiologically abused. Regardless of this, he even preached to his abusers telling them Prabhupada would be disgusted at what they were trying to do, he humbly asked them to chant Hare Krsna and get help for their diseased condition. He also told his father of the offending devotees also.

Most don’t understand the fact that SOME (in the minority) older gurukuli boys performed ‘sexual abuse’ on younger gurukuli's due to the poor 'ISKCON awareness years of leadership' Even if they new it was going on, they had no idea how to deal with it and therefore it was mostly ignored or covered up

So why do some boys get involved in this nonsense, while others, like the story of the boy, who did not get involved, happen? This 11-year-old boy instinctively new it was wrong because such ‘lusty’ nonsense was not going to help his spiritual life, he in fact instead preached to his attackers.

 

So was this activity due to some devotees previously being polluted by adult devotees or was it caused by their own karma from a previous life even if they were even born as a devotee in those early immature pioneering?

Well regardless of the answer, which is ISKCON was born out of the hippie degradation of the mid 1960's, one thing is certain. Most great devotees and demigods are not going to put up with such nonsense; so they will not come until their safety throughout their devotional life in ISKCON is guaranteed.

 

In this way, It’s not just what the parents think about at conception that such demigods consider before taking birth, it’s the whole ISKCON Society and how qualified THEY are and Krishna Conscious THEY are to protect them from even the influence of such basic things as ‘karmi’ Television.

The fact is, the great devotee demigods only want to go back home. Back to Godhead, and if they do not feel 100% safe and protected, they WILL NOT take birth in a present day ISKCON or Gaudiya Math devotee family where the TV is the central alter in their homes.

Urmila Devi Dasi from ISKCON’s Ministry of Education below partly explains this as follows however, there is still a lot to learn on this subject, for example, ‘molding’ children to be devotees must be real and not educated by those who imitated a pure devotee or those who just have academic qualifications.

 

Only a REAL devotee can make (ATTRACT) a devotee. And only a REAL GENINE devotee collective of PURE Krishna Consciousness devotees, householders and teachers can attract the demigods to take birth in Lord Caitanya’s Movement.

 

So, until we all become pure, the demigods will mostly stay lined up waiting until ISKCON is Krishna Conscious enough to come and take birth

 

• “Srila Prabhupada once said, "If you place a child in good association, he will act properly, and if you place him in bad association, he will act improperly. A child has no independence in that sense.... According to Vedic civilization, as soon as a child is four or five years old, he is sent to a Gurukula, where he is disciplined."

 

• Anyone who has worked with children knows they are vulnerable to their environment. Yet children also carry from their previous lives a complex burden of good and bad karma and a particular tendency of character. In fact, the mentality of the parents during conception attracts a particular soul—with particular inclinations—to become their child.

 

• Because of this, enlightened parents prepare themselves so that they can be in spiritual consciousness during conception. Thus their child will be receptive to the training they will give him. Srila Prabhupada says, "You can mold the children in any way. They are like soft dough." So the mold is essential when considering the shape of the final piece of sculpture. But the quality of the material one puts into the mold is also important”. By Urmila Devi Dasi

 

 

Only a real devotee can make (attract) a 'real' devotee to take birth as their child

 

 

And only a REAL GENINE devotee collective of PURE Krishna Consciousness devotees, householders and teachers can attract the demigods to take birth in Lord Caitanya’s Movement instead of those with 'monkey, cat and dog' mentality.

 

So, until we all become pure, the demigods will mostly stay lined up waiting until ISKCON is Krishna Conscious enough and safe so they can take birth and be protected to achieve their goal of going back home, back to serving Krishna in Goloka or Krsnaloka.

 

Only then will the 'demigods' come and take birth

A guru's business is to canvass everyone to become a devotee of God. That is the sum and substance of a real guru's business. Indeed, he has no other business. He tells whomever he sees, "Please become God conscious." If he canvasses somehow or other on behalf of God and tries to get everyone to become a devotee of God, he is a genuine guru".

I want to thank all the devotees that have sent cookie prasadam to the soldiers-medics here at Ft. Sam Houston Texas. About 2,000 cookies have been distributed. The soldiers in my company here got used to the prasadam cookies sent on a weekly basis. Those boxes of treats were gobbled down in record time. We could take 300 cookies in less than 90 seconds. (I timed the first box with a stop watch)

By Mitravinda dasi

Ratna Bushana dasa from Los Angeles began a year ago sending prasadam cookies to Partha Sarthi dasa in Iraq. Ratna Bushana Prabhu decided to send some to the soldiers in training as well. The cookies are distributed to almost 500 soldiers-medics as they stand in formation; an organized way to distribute mail and packages. When the first box of cookies arrived it was emptied before I could even walk back to my place in formation. As I was throwing the empty box in the garbage I could hear the most beautiful echo of the Maha Mantra. The Hare Krsna mantra was on a label of each individually wrapped cookie. That was the best idea ever!! The Holy Name and prasadam came together.

Mothers Satya, Dhanistha and Vilasa Manjali from New York also sent cookies. One of the boxes contained tulsi leaves that were wrapped seperately. The soldiers tore into the box before I could intercept the tulsi leaves. By the time they were finished there was only one tulsi leaf left on the bottom of the box. The soldiers ate all the tulsi leaves!

Shri Hari dasa and his daughter Shatakshi sent cookies from Idaho. Each individually wrapped cookie not only had the Holy Name but the label also indicated Idaho. We have a lot of soldiers from Idaho. It was with great pleasure I was able to distribute the ISKCON information for Idaho to these soldiers. Another great idea!! Not only is prasadam being distributed with the Holy Name but so are our temple locations. Genius!

Several soldiers asked me why these people are sending us cookies. Many church groups send care packages to soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan. Community organizations are always trying to do something to support our troops deployed to combat zones. The soldiers wondered why because we are just low ranking soldier-medics in training state side, why would any temple or church send us anything? In the Army culture everything is about rank and we are low on the totem pole, worthless privates. I explained,” because the Hare Krsna temples care about us, they care about our souls and do not distinguish who we are, what our rank is. It’s about equal vision.” The most precious words they could have ever responded back that was very dear to me was, “These Hare Krishna’s are so cool”

One boy who is somewhat overweight has been failing his physical fitness test. Private Chubby stuffed as many prasadam cookies as he could in his uniform pockets. He came back a few days later and asked what prasadam was. I explained it meant “Krishna’s mercy”. He concluded that he needed a lot of Krishna’s mercy to pass his next physical fitness test so he needed more cookies so he could get more mercy.

The night before graduation from our medical training, Ratna Bushana called and said he had another box of cookies he already sent. “Oh no, I will be flying out of Texas tomorrow”. I would not be around to get the package. I went and ask one of the sergeants if a package comes from Los Angeles the next week could he go ahead and open the box, they will be the celebrated cookies. He had a big smile on his face assuring me that he would not hesitate to open the cookies and distribute them. Of course, opening others peoples mail is a federal offense. When prasadam cookies arrive for Partha-sarthi dasa in Iraq the soldiers just go ahead and open the boxes and start eating. Who needs devotees to distribute? Prasadam distributes itself, prasadam transcends postal regulations. There is no offense to open the cookies, he has my permission.

I hope everyone understands that these video below and the rest on this thread is the white house 'boys' mocking those who believe the moon landing was a hoax. In other words the following video are a hoax, they are playing with you mind - good acting though.

5 http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7RXrKRuNvNU&feature=related

This 'playing along' is clever

6 http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=uU5YyolUHAw&feature=related

Richard Nixon agrees that those who new the moon landing was a hoax had to be hunted down and killed - watch it and have a laugh

7 http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=LZfHLxWfCLQ&feature=related

I know one Temple that used this satir documentary believing it was real, to convience a Sunday guest crowd how the moon landing was faked.

My theory

Vedas (comunicating absolute knowlege and wisdom) in Sanskrit have come down from the heavenly planets through the pathway of the Satya, Tretta and Dvapara yugas. The Kali-yuga is the ‘crossroads’ where what has come down via the heavenly planets, meets with what has come up (evolved) from this planet, where the remnants of Vedic culture becomes mixed with the primitive tribes of humans, who had evolved up through the species of life.

Not surprisingly, the Sanskrit Vedas influenced the barbaric tribes who looted the now weakened Vedic culture at the beginning of Kaki-yuga

In this way the word "Veda" is from the root vid, "to know," making for other derivates like vidya, "knowledge," and avidya, "ignorance."

The vid root is cognate to idea in Greek, video in Latin, and wit in English. The word "Veda" means wit, wisdom.

The word video is derived from the word Veda

Hari Sauri prabhu = Scorpio, symbol of final transformation from egotism to collective thinking, radical changes can happen compared with a fire that burns egocentric attachment and pushes towards social mindedness without turning back. -

Why is the term 'fallen' ever used if nobody falls down from the spiritual world? And believe me, the word comes up all over the place in the Bhagavatam and Prabhupada's purports in such phrases as 'fallen conditioned soul'

Their consciousness is fallen which simply means one chooses to 'forget' Krsna.

This means they stop being 'aware' of Krishna and sub-consciously manifest their own imaginary existence.

This is just like being in a coma where you forget your present body and its identify and become only aware of the comatised dream state

'Fall down' from Vaikuntha however is a choice to remember who you really are serving Krsna, or forget who you are and opt for your own imaginary dreamworld catered for in the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna in the process and your 'svarupa' eternal body in Krsnaloka serving Krsna.

This is what fall down from Krsnaloka really means - falling down 'consciously' (similar to to being so absorbed in your dreams while sleeping in your present material body, you forget that body and think you are the dream) to their own non Krsna Conscious thoughts, imaginings, desires and plans

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness ,but rather a division of time.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

Srila Prabhupada –“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada – “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

Then Srila Prabhupada CLEARLY explains what this means -

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint wihin the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie, putting the dvd player on hold or pause, let me explain -.

It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here.On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation.

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the maha-tattva. In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

I would like to humbly correctly point out to Kulapavana that it is not those on this thread saying we are eternally situated in Goloka and presently only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are not there, it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us that our original position is in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen.

Your argument is therefore with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and not with me. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all. Lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka (Krshnaloka).

 

Vedic Cosmos - HH Danavir Goswami (video 12 min. A multi-dimensional journey through the unknown and subtle features of the entire universe and beyond Vedic Cosmos

The majority of the marginal living entities or jivas, who are naturally ALL devotees of Krishna in their full potential, never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be compromised or covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious cloud or dream state that all living entities can activate, due to their unique free will and abilty to choose.

Such erroneous self centred desires and dreams only place them in the transitory mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. The living entities natural constitution and perpetual position is serving Krishna, or one of His Vishnu tattva expansions in Goloka or Vaikuntha as nitya-siddha.

Therefore most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha. Such inconceivable statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate % of a % in an endless Spiritual creation?

So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine, think or dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY THAT NEVER LEAVES GOLOKA. Most living entities therefore never enter the world of imagination (the mahat-tattva) and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore it is only due to the cloud covering (the baddha-jiva dreaming sub-conscious state of the living entity) we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada often emphasized the dream-like quality of our mayik existence because it is simply the dreaming condition of the marginal living entity as their secondary non Krishna Conscious jiva-baddha state.

Once we awakened to the real spiritual nature of our consciousness, which is eternally in Goloka as nitya-siddha, the dream-like mayik existence created by our baddha-jiva consciousness will dissolve like the sunlight dissipates the darkness

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada clearly says we in the material condition of existence, is just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position.

There are two states of existence called nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state of is eternally in a Krishna Conscious bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self, while the non-free state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that creates the various dream identities.

The nitya-baddha state is only activated when the marginal living entity or jiva-soul chooses to forget their perpetual original identity as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

This eternal abode of Krishnas is beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the maha-tattva and is the genuine Kingdom of God way beyond the heavenly world within the mahat-tattva (material creation).

Srila Prabhupada - "Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition". - Letter, June 13, 1970.

Srila Prabhupada - "The conditioned living being has forgotten his eternal relationship with God and he has mistakenly accepted the temporary place of birth as all-in-all... The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." (Sri Isopanisad 11)

Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and ALL spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]

Srila Prabhupada - "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse”. Lecture washington DC Temple 1976

A projection, hologram, dreaming or telecasting thoughts to the mahat-tattva, whatever it takes to explain we are dreaming from our marginal identity thats full potential and permanant bodily identity(nitya-siddha) is in Goloka

This secondary self (nitya-baddha) is a living holographic countefeit projection of the living entity that enables one to enter the mahat-tattva, that is just as real as Vaikuntha, but temporary and always fades due to decay, and attempt to fulfil their dreams to achieve anything they want, hence, you can have anything, it just may take you a billion life times in the mahat-tattva to achieve it.

And then it fades and becomes as if it never was, just like an illusion, moving on again within the cycle of birth and death.

Jiv Jago Vedesu with your silly cheeky posts. We are all in Goloka right now! All you have to do is just wake up from your nonsese dreaming of thinking you are the material body you are in and see this truth for yourself

Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila, or sport. Our present baddha jiva mundane consciousness dream state has put our awareness within the mahat-tattva cloud that may remain that way for a very, very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations within the mahat-tattva are coming and going.

Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually wakes up from the material dream and comes to Krishna consciousness.

When that happens, one wakes up from their nitya-baddha condition and realizes their nitya-siddha body and that they were with Krishna all along.