Vaishnava_das108

YES !!!!!

 

EUREKA !!! This is a good answer to a queston that has been bugging me for YEARS!!

 

Thank you!!!!

I wonder if this is a genuine tradition from India, or do these nativity scenes take place due to a subtle Western influence?

 

Excuse my ignorance. I have seen nativity scenes take place here in my local temple, but it was more like a "doll," and part of a public display and exhibition with all sorts of murals and similar sculptures. But I do not ever recall seeing a nativity scene on an altar.

I wonder if this is a genuine tradition from India, or do these nativity scenes take place due to a subtle Western influence?

 

Excuse my ignorance. I have seen nativity scenes take place here in my local temple, but it was more like a "doll," and part of a public display and exhibition with all sorts of murals and similar sculptures. But I do not ever recall seeing a nativity scene on an altar.

 

You have misunderstood my 'IT'. It is not information Technology, but is 'it', stands for Ultimate Reality, which to me is of neutral gender (not Him or Her) I address god with a big IT

 

 

On what basis?

LOL. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

All opinions expressed are, unless otherwise stated, are my personal views. The verses quoted are from a book , compiled and edited by H.H. Shri Swami Chinmayananda of the Chinmaya Mission, and are classified as ‘ancient and anonymous’.

 

 

Considering that you read books by Advaitin swamis, it is not at all surprising that you thik that Krishna is a mortal man.

 

What else can Advaitins teach?

I would like to comment Jahnava-Nitai prabhu on his views on initiation.

 

Although I must say that I respect the formal ceremony of diksa and there has to be a certain amount of importance allocated to it, this is the first time that I have heard a viewpoint that striving devotees of any kind may be respected as "initiated" devotees if they simply show or have faith in Srila Prabhupada's teachings.

 

This is probably the spirit of boundless generosity that we should all try to emulate, and was perfectly done by no less that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself.

 

All glories! All glories! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

To get this thread back on track, we were talking about Tripurari Swami. Also, the issue with Tripurari Swami also goes way beyond a supposed viewpoint on homosexuality, so perhaps we could do well to broaden the discussion into other points?

 

The sum and substance of the 'Tripurari Swami' issue is that he has deviated in MANY ways from his guru maharajas, Srila Prabhupada and Sridhara Maharaja.

 

I have heard the many hokey arguments about preaching according to time and place, etc, and seeking the essence, and this does not compute, sorry.

 

You cannot seek the essence and preach according to the time by disobeying your spiritual masters, and this is what TS has done on MANY issues, not just that of female sannyasa.

 

Shri Guru Nanak was a great Sanatana Dharmi and reformer of Hinduism. He belong to the category of Gautama, the Buddha, Jina, who realized and the great Acharya, Sri Sankara.

 

 

I don't think that it is appropriate to categorise Guru Nanak along with voidists, atheists and advaitins. It has already been shown that most of the names for God in the Sikh scripture, Sri Guru Granth Sahid, are mostly names of Krishna. For this reason, I can accept Sikhism as some sort of branch of Vaishnavism, however distant it may be.

 

 

Though worshipper of the Formless, Shri Guru Nank has chanted the name of Shiva and Krishna. The message might be that you can reach the Formless One thru forms also, if you are unable to access him in ITs Formless 'form'

 

 

And what is the meaning of 'formless'? It simply means that God has no material form, that's all. This does not mean to say that He has no spiritual form. And this is the sum and substance.

 

Curiously there is no authoritative biography of Nityananda Prabhu; and while Rupa, Jiva, and Raghunatha do not even mention him once in their collective writings, Sanatana Gosvami refers to him only briefly in the invocation of his Vaisnava-tosani. Nonetheless, the world is fortunate that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's biographers have devoted large sections of their work to Nityananda's life, which can be pieced together from this massive literature, and also from later medieval Vaisnava texts, such as Bhakti-ratna- kara and Prema-vilasa.

 

 

I wonder why Steven Rosen (Satyaraj das) says this when we have the Sri Nityananda-caritamrta as written by Srila Vrindavan das Thakur. This was published in 2000 by the efforts of one Vrindavan devotee named Isvara das.

tumi nityananda murti nityananda nama

murtimanta tuni caitanyera sunadhama

 

“Your name is Nityananda and indeed You are ‘nityananda,’ eternal bliss. You are the form of Sri Caitanya’s transcendental qualities.”

 

sarva jiva paritrana tumi mahaketu

mahapralayete tumi satya dharmasetu

 

“You deliver all living beings and protect religious principles at the time of annihilation.”

 

tumi se bhujao caitanyera premabhakti

tumi se caitanya bakes dhara purna sakti

 

“You descended to give caitanya-prema-bhakti. Indeed, You are the full potency of Lord Caitanya.”

 

brahma siva naradadi bhakta nama yara

tumi se parama upadesta savakara

 

“You teach supreme knowledge to devotees headed by Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, and Narada.”

 

visnu bhakti sabei payena toma haite

tathapio abhimana na sparse tomate

 

“Everyone getss visnu-bhakti from You, yet You’re untouched by pride.”

 

patita pavana tumi doya drsti sunya

tomare se jane yara ache bahupunya

 

“You deliver the fallen souls without seeing their faults. Only the very pious can know You.

 

sarva yajnamaya ei vigraha tomara

abidya bandhana khao smarena yahara

 

“You are the only enjoyer of sacrifices. Simply remembering You destroys the bondage of ignorance at once.”

 

yadi tumi prakasa na kara apanare

tabe kara sakti ache janite tomare

 

“If you do not manifest Yourself then who will understand You?”

 

akrodha paramananda tumi mahesvara

sahasra badana adi deba mahidhara

 

“You are the most blissful Supreme Lord, completely free of anger. You are the thousand-headed Ananta who holds the universes on His hoods.”

 

raksa kula hasta tumi srilaksmanacandra

tumi gopa-putra haladhara murtimanta

 

“You are Sri Laksmanacandra, destroyer of the raksasa dynasty. You are Haladhara, the son of a cowherd.”

 

murkha nica adhama patita uddharite

tumi avartina haiyacha prthibite

 

“You descended to save the fallen, wretched, foolish, and low-class people.”

 

ye bhakti banchaye yogesvara munigane

toma haite taha paibe yete jane

 

“By Your mercy, everyone easily achieves devotional service that is aspired for by great sages and mystic yogis.”

 

-- Advaita Acarya’s prayers, Sri Nityananda-caritamrta Chapter 6

Caitanya Caritamrta

 

“The ocean of Lord Nityananda's glories is infinite and unfathomable. Only by His mercy can I touch even a drop of it.” – CC Adi 5.157

 

“The glories of Lord Nityananda's transcendental attributes are unfathomable. Even Lord Sesa with His thousands of mouths cannot find their limit.” CC Adi 5.234

 

 

Caitanya Bhagavata

 

“I offer my respectful obeisances unto Sri Nityananda Raya, for He is my worshippable Lord. By His mercy the glories of Lord Caitanya become manifest.” – Adi 1.11

 

“There is no one more dear to Lord Caitanya than Nityananda, therefore Lord Caitanya always enjoys pastimes within Him.” – Adi 1.17

 

“Sri Krsna Caitanya is most satisfied with one who chants or hears the characteristics of Lord Nityananda.” – Adi 1.18

 

“Lord Nityananda is the dearmost object of Sri Caitanyacandra, therefore anyone who commits an offense at His lotus feet is vanquished.” – Adi 1.42

 

“Those who wish to cross the ocean of material existence and drown in the ocean of devotional service should worship Lord Nityananda.” – Adi 1.77

 

“By the mercy of Lord Nityananda the pastimes of Sri Caitanya will become manifest, because His tongue is the storehouse of Lord Caitanya’s glories.” – Adi 1.81

 

“No one can understand Lord Nityananda’s unlimited characteristics as He wanders about Mathura with ankle bells on His feet.” – Adi 1.176

 

“Whatever relationship Nityananda may have with Lord Caitanya, I still keep His lotus feet within my heart.” – Madhya 11.62

 

“Simply by the mercy of Nityananda one obtains devotional service of Visnu. Know it for certain that Nityananda is the full potency of Krsna.” – Madhya 12.26

 

“The characteristics of Nityananda are incomprehensible to the Vedas. He is the origin, protector, and friend of all living entities. His dealings are full of transcendental mellows for Krsna. Just by serving Him one obtains devotional service in love of Krsna.” – Madhya 12.28-29

 

“Krsna will never leave that person who is touched by the air that has passed by Nityananda’s body.” – Madhya 12.58

Thank you very much.

I wonder if I might be allowed to ask an off-topic question? It has been bugging me for some time and I'd really like an answer.

 

Perhaps only Indian residents can answer.

 

My question is:

 

If a boy is in the 7th Standard in Indian schools, around how old would he be? Around what age?

 

I would like an approximate answer please.

 

Forgive me asking dumb questions but don't the Sikh have an invisible God? Aren't they monotheists?

 

 

It is true that the Sikhs are monotheists, but I am not very sure about their appelation of 'formless.' I think it is to be understood in the way we understand Advaitic philosophy, that 'formless' means having no material form.

 

I once came across a book that was a severely abridged edition of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, and there was one page which listed all the names for God that are contained in the pages of SGGS. I was amazed to find that MOST of the names in SGGS are names of Krishna! Such names were like Mukunda, Madan-mohan, Murari, Gopala, etc. There were also a couple referring to 'Ishwar' and there was a name of Shiva also.

 

 

know very little about the Sikh but I have read a Sikh prayer in which Krishna is rejected.

 

 

I don't know about Krishna, but I am aware that there is a hymn in the SGGS that speaks about death and the temporality of all things. It also mentions that even Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are subject to death, so this also struck me as rather incongruent with Vaishnava teachings.

 

I will try to research more.

 

The Sirdi avatara, the Puttaparthi Avatra, the Rajnish avatara etc are the latest. The Chaitanya avatara, the Pramahamsa avatara and many others among the recent. A new Vyasa Avatar is needed to incorporate all these avataras since Buddha and Mahavira to the sruties and smrities, puranas and itihasas. I am waiting for Vyasa Deva to be born again.

 

 

Shirdi Sai Baba, Sathya Sai Baba of Puttarparthi, and Rajneesh, are not avatars but simply fakes.

 

Shirdi Sai was a Sufi Muslim.

 

Sathya Sai weakly claims to be the reincarnation of the former, and is also undergoing huge controversy for allegations of homosexual child molestation, financial scandals, murders, organ theft, and so many other things.

 

And we all know about Rajneesh!

 

I wonder what makes you think that they are avatars? Perhaps you can explain.

 

As for Vyasa, we know that he is going to be born again with a specific mission; to describe and elaborate on the pastimes of Caitanya Mahaprabhu that were not revealed before.

 

 

The great Kalki is ruling(Muhammed of Arabia). But more powerful things we have than the khadga of the Kalki. The nuclear piles are piling up, or if you want the rasayanik or the biological way, you can get ichha-mrutyu that way. The great Kalki is being outwitted by the man it made.

 

 

Prophet Muhummad is not Kalki, and it is impossible for Kalki to be "outwitted" or make any other mistakes.

sri-brahma-rudra-sanaka

vaisnavah ksiti-pavanah

catvaras te kalan bhavya

hy utkale purusottamat

 

"The four Vaisnava disciplic successions, inaugurated by Laxmi Devi (Sri Sampradaya - Ramanuja), Lord Brahma (the Brahma Sampradaya - Madhwa), Lord Siva (the Rudra Sampradaya - Visnu-Swamin), and the four Kumaras (from Sanaka Kumara - Nimbarka) who will come to Jagannatha Puri - Purusottam Ksetra, Utkal, and purify the entire earth during the age of Kali."

 

I would like to know where this verse is to be found in Padma Purana?

 

I have heard that it is no longer extant in current extant publications of Padma Purana, and that the omission may be due to the popularity of certain rescensions. Is this true? And how do we know?

Well, where does it say in the scriptures that Kalki is referred to as Sampoorna Avatar ?

 

We know that Krishna is certainly 'bhagavan svayam' because the Srimad Bhagavatam explicitly says so, whereas Jiva Goswami in his Krishna Sandarbha quite clearly says that Kalki will be a saktyavesa-avatar.

Jai!

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

For the record, in all the time I have seen this discussion progress on various forum sites, "denigrating thoughts" against women never once crossed my mind. I don't know what that means, but I can only say that I have tried to follow the "spirit" of Srila Prabhupada's instructions that the bodily distinctions (man and woman, etc) are immaterial and that it is the soul that counts.

 

I believe I recalled from memory a statement in Hari Sauri das' memoirs that Srila Prabhupada specifically gave this as the reason why women could not take sannyasa; because although they were spiritually (atmically) equal, they are materially different and it is for this reason that they cannot be given sannyasa.

 

As for adjusting principles, several people have brought up the point that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura initiated only his brahmana disciples as sannyasis. So I have a question here; did Srila Sarasvati Thakura ever say that ONLY brahmanas can take sannyasa? Sannyasa could NEVER be taken by any other caste?

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think he did. It may be that his brahmana disciples became initiated as sannyasis, for what purpose? To follow tradition? Who knows, but is this a final arrangement?

 

If Srila Sarasvati Thakura did not say that ONLY brahmanas can take sannyasa, then it is perfectly OK for Srila Prabhupada to "adjust" this principle to initiate non-brahmanas as sannyasis as there is no forbidding instruction. On the other hand, we specifically have statements from Srila Prabhupada that women can never be given sannyasa. How anyone can "adjust" this principle is beyond me.

 

Much is made of Srila Prabhupada's supposedly "sexist" attitude to women, but we tend to forget that Srila Prabhupada allowed for women to become pujaris, temple presidents, and so on. In fact, when Srila Prabhupada first drew up a list of appointments for the first GBC, there were a significant number of female disciples on it. The reason why they were not chosen is perhaps because the other men on that list were more capable of preaching or managerial skills.

 

Srila Prabhupada also did not disapprove of women becoming diksa-gurus in ISKCON. For a woman to attain a position of diksa-guru is certainly higher than "tridandi-sannyasa," for a sannyasi in ISKCON may not necessarily be a guru.

 

The conclusion is clear; Srila Prabhupada forbade female sannyasa. If someone ordains a female as a sannyasini, he is deviating. The consequences are unspeakable.

 

Do you assert that Srila Prabhupada is thelast person ever able to make any adjustments? Based on what? Those of us who have long been his disciples know he often exhorted us to use our intelligence to find ways to expand Mahaprabhu's movement.

 

 

Dear Stonehearted,

 

Please allow me to explain. What I meant to say was that Srila Prabhupada is the last recognised sampradaya-acharya for ISKCON. It is also possible that new bonafide Acharyas shall be coming in Srila Prabhupada's line, and they will surely be qualified to make any new adjustments for future times. However, I do not think that such an adjustment would be to allow sannyasa for women.

 

It is not just Revatinandan's supposed evidence that states this. I have also read a similar thing in Hari Sauri's memoirs. I expect that you know that Hari Sauri das was Srila Prabhupada's personal servant for the last two years or so of the latter's manifest presence. I believe in the first installment of his diary, he relates the story that Srila Prabhupada received a letter from a female disciple asking for sannyasa, to which Srila Prabhupada dictated a reply. According to my memory, the reply was something along the lines of the argument that women and men basically have different functions on the material platform while they are totally equal on the spiritual platform, being the soul. But materially, women could not be given sannyasa on account of the differences.

 

I will try to find this quote if you like.

 

But anyway, as I stated earlier, there is a huge gulf of difference between adjusting a principle and disobeying it. My puny mind cannot conceive of a way in which we may compromise this "no female sannyasa" principle and somehow allow female sannyasis to preach Mahaprabhu's mission.

No.

Dear Paul,

 

in fact you are right.

 

Tripurari Swami has been much criticised for his edition of Bhagavad-gita. It is true that as you say, there is no mangalacaranam or dedication to Srila Prabhupada, but I was definitely surprised to hear you say that there seems to be no much emphasis on chanting of the Hare-Krsna mantra.

 

I have not had the time to seriously study Tripurari Swami's teachings, but I have reason to believe that most of his ideas regarding the mission of Sri Caitanya have been soundly criticised. For example, he thinks that counting our rounds is a manifestation of maya, harinama processions are not an effective preaching tool, and that the Srimad Bhagavatam may be allegorical and symbolic. This issue about female sannyasa just seems to be the latest one.

This doesn't explain Tripurari Swami's disobedience to his guru-varga.

 

Like it or not, we may try to couch it in nice terms, and engage in protracted discussions about the significance of sannyasa and the qualification of the candidates, but there is no denying that the last great Acharya, Srila Prabhupada, has expressly forbidden the acceptance of the sannyasa order by women. Thanks to a fellow member, the information is given in the "Memories" video series that according to Srila Prabhupada, this would "never" happen in our sampradaya.

 

There is not much consensus on the question if Tripurari Swami is a realised soul or not, but it is essential to note that using the example of modifying the principles to suit the time, place and circumstances is invalid.

 

There is a huge gulf of difference between modifying a standard, and disobeying it. It looks like Tripurari Swami has chosen to disobey it. What more can be said?

OK.

 

And there's no need to be so insulting and abusive.