cbrahma

He gave sannyasa to completely unqualified people. Why? He knew very well that in his movement being a sannyasi was an automatic ticket to power, fame, and priviledge. Why would he do that knowing these people were nowhere near ready to be sannyasis?

You're blaming the corruption of the sannyasis on Prabhupada? You really are despicable. The brahamanas fell down. For all intents and purposes ISKCON has fallen down. Your point being?

In an amazing short time he managed to take dirty drug-addicted hippies and turn them into pujaris who followed the principles and performed deity worship at a high standard. I know because I was there.

You continually rationalize the inadequacy of gurus and now you are criticizing the acarya.

I think Prabhupada saw corruption in his movement (and there was plenty of that in his days) as an inevitable byproduct of his disciples conditioning. He actually tried to use it in spreading of his movement - motivating his materialistic disciples also with power, position, and distinction. They were his big monkeys. Why do you think he gave these people sannyasa? Because they were ready? LOL! He gave them what they wanted, so they would give him what he wanted: the facility to spread Lord Caitanya's movement. For him they collected money to build temples, produced and distributed his books, preached all over the world. And most (if not all) of the leaders he appointed were enjoying the perks of their position to the fullest.

Your speculations about Prabhupada's inmost thoughts are inconsequential.

Did he say it? Did he do it? He was straightforward. Trying to read ambiguity where it doesn't exist is rascaldom, to use his favorite word.

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>“If one considers the spiritual master an ordinary human being, one is doomed... One may argue by saying that, since the spiritual master's relatives and men of his neighborhood consider him an ordinary human being, what is the fault on the part of the disciple to consider the spiritual master an ordinary human being?... He Must be accepted as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead...Even a slight deviation from this understanding can create disaster in the disciple's Vedic studies and austerities.”

S.B. 7.15.26

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

You are not understanding the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Failure is the pillar of success, so especially in spiritual life, this failure is not discouraging. Even one fails in completing his spiritual course, still, there is no loss on his part".

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "As we have sometimes heard the proverb, that Failure is the pillar of success, so especially in spiritual life, this failure is not discouraging. This failure is not discouraging. Krishna says that: Even one fails in completing his spiritual course, still, there is no loss on his part". His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (05-10-08)

 

 

What Happens to a Fallen Devotee? MP3 Audo Bhagavad-gita 6.40-44

No doubt you are one of the rationalizing elite, making excuses for the damage so many pseudo-devotees have done to Prabhupada's movement.

Prabhupada was not tolerant of deviation in his movement. His standards were the highest, especially when it comes to the spiritual master.

“If one considers the spiritual master an ordinary human being, one is doomed... One may argue by saying that, since the spiritual master's relatives and men of his neighborhood consider him an ordinary human being, what is the fault on the part of the disciple to consider the spiritual master an ordinary human being?... He Must be accepted as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead...Even a slight deviation from this understanding can create disaster in the disciple's Vedic studies and austerities.”

S.B. 7.15.26

 

“Mistake, illusion, cheating, and imperfection, which are the flaws of all conditioned souls...

The liberated souls are above those flaws

.”

 

 

S.B. 1.3.24

 

The tree will always be shaken and the rotten fruit will fall of therefore we must never forget the motto of Lord Caitanya which is patita-pavana. Everyone will be tested whether they came in 1966 or come in 2066.

It is all coming from the heart based on the intensity of our sincerity and genuin prayers. The point is those sincere prayers in a hapless state at the lotus feet of Lord Krishna, must ALWAYS go on otherwise one will fall down, be him a pot washer, sannyasi, Guru or second generation 'grand-children'

Frankly, the first generation did amazing preaching, I travelled with Buddhimanta Prabhu and his dedication, and spiritual potency was amazing. Even those who did have difficulty like Madhudvisa and Hari Sauri, both ex-Swami's, have used their failures as something to learn from and pass on to others.

I don't fully agree with your attitude towards the first generation. The problem was immaturity and arrogance due to that immaturity which is something we have to learn from. There is a saying

'Often failure is the pillar of success'

All pioneers go through difficulties in establishing a society, look at the America's and Australia. ISKCON pioneers are no different; it will take time to 'grow' in a Western Culture of materialism and mundane religions

On top of all that, when Prabhupada came to Australia in 1971, the average age of his disciples was 19 years of age. I was initiated in 1972 at the age of 17 years of age. When Madhudvisa (Swami) came in 1972, we all thought this 'old' devotee was coming to Australia. Old?? He was 24 years of age for pets sake!

Yes, a lot of mistakes were made due to immaturity and some forgetting where they had came from within western society, only to be become puffed up ISKCON bullies, but there were also many dedicated humble devotees as well, who were not strong enough nor mature during the 1980s to challenge the 11 ‘masters’

But because of there sincerity from within the heart, the lie did not last and the rebuilding and attempts to mature continue to this day.

Prabhupada would never rationalize the existence of corruption in his movement as the necessity of failure - for success -

I'm not so sure about that. Prabhupada had an idea at one time to hold exams for the Bhaktivedanta title as a qualification to be a guru:

 

68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta

" Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program. "

 

That program was never put in place, but the idea (and thus a sanction), of passing some sort of a benchmark test to be a guru, is clearly something he introduced in Iskcon.

When it became painfully obvious to most of us that these men were in fact not pure then they began their system of watering down the position of acarya. Gurus do sometimes fall down, they said. In other words they sometimes cheat, make mistakes, are illusioned and have imperfect senses. This philosophy did not come into being overnight because NOBODY in 1978 would have accepted it but was gradually introduced... Janardana das (02-01-01)

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Prabhupada:. . . Now, to take such guidance means the spiritual master should also be a very perfect man. Otherwise, how can he guide? Now, here Arjuna knows that Sri Krsna is the perfect person. So therefore he is accepting Him as sisyas te ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam: I am just surrendering unto You, You self, Yourself, and You accept me as Your disciple because friendly talks cannot make a solution of the perplexity." Friendly talks may be going on for years together, but there is no solution. Here, accepting Krsna as the spiritual master means whatever Krsna will decide, he has to accept. One cannot deny the order of a spiritual master. Therefore one has to select a spiritual master whose order, carrying, you ll not commit a mistake. You see? Now, suppose if you accept a wrong person as spiritual master, and if you, if he guides you wrongly, then your whole life is spoiled. So one has to accept a spiritual master whose guidance will make his life perfect. That is the relation between spiritual master and disciple. It is not a formality. It is a great responsibility both for the disciple and for the spiritual master. And... Yes?

That part is not what Prabhupada would have liked. The mess is there now, made by some egotistical and manipulative disciples of Prabhupada. It will not be like that forever. Most of these 'gurus' are being ignored by the more mature devotees. Yet, there are also gurus I consider legitimate, useful, and very inspiring. So it is a mixed bag.

 

Anyway, Krsna is in charge and He will force the changes.

These gurus are authorized by the GBC - that is their claim. This is not how gurus should be selected. It isn't a post one applies for and then gets approved. Prabhupada would be furious.

Some of the devotees I was talking about are on their second or third 'guru'. Do you think they are 'guru fanatics'? They often took another 'initiation' just because they were pressured from above to do so. Others have a guru they really like, but do not see him as an absolute authority on everything. Yet another group have gurus which are quite reasonable. But they all know what is important: the mission. I associate with these people every day. Directly and through the web.

Sounds like a mess and you believe this is Prabhupada's mission to have gurus just cause one is forced?

The devotees I'm talking about regularly go out on harinam and book sankirtan, hold Sunday feasts in temples they maintain and manage, preach to people, organize open festivals, and run farms aimed at economic viability. They care very little about the often rotten top of Iskcon power pyramid. They are not stupid. They may not be able to influence the GBC decisions but they do carry on with Prabhupada's mission.

 

One day, when the corrupt old-timers now in GBC leave this world, these devotees will take over. They are not ex-hippie power junkie pseudo-sannyasis. They are practical, sincere devotees who understand the past mistakes and know the needs of the present day people. That is why I am optimistic about Prabhupada's mission. Prabhupada's 'children' are the brake. When his 'grand-children' take over, it will be a completely different Iskcon, IMO much closer to what Prabhupada intended.

By corrupt old-timers are you referring to the gurus of these devotees who are 'managing' and supposedly carrying out Prabhupada's mission?

Last time I was regularly associating was only a year ago. It didn't look like Prabhupada's mission at all.

The actual Krishna consciousness movement had nothing whatsoever to do with change. It was a movement of spiritual rejuvenation, which is a completely different process from change or transformation. Srila Prabhupada was relegated to the position of a figurehead in the last months (or even years), and then eleven powerful men—under the ultimate influence of TKG—created the First Transformation. TKG was very instrumental in the coup of the spring of 1978, and an “Acharya Board" was created as an independent subset of the “GBC.” Yes, Swami B.R. Sridhar was also instrumental; he served as the soil for those eleven seeds of personal glory (“The poison is personal ambition”). There would have been no Zonal Acharyas, however, without the directed influence of TKG. The eleven Zonals constituted just short of half of the votes of the “GBC” during the spring of 1978, but they wielded far, far more than half of the influence on that governing body. The other Commissioners failed us, and they did not stop the eleven pretender mahabhagavats from their takeover of the movement. This was the First Transformation.

Kailasa Candra dasa

 

Why? I don't even know this person. I have no opinion on his credibility or the term for that matter.

Here is a reference from Rocana's site. Rocana certainly seems to know him.

Considering this devotee is an independant thinker criticizing the ISKCON's guru policies, his endorsment of the Sampradaya acarya has a lot of credibility, and not just parroting what he read.

Most of the intellectuals who formed the inner circle of this cell were unceremoniously excommunicated from ISKCON for publicly voicing their subversive ideas. To the best of my knowledge, the membership included Pradyumna dasa, Jadurani devi dasi, Kailasa candra dasa, and Yasoda nandanana dasa. This school of radical thought wrote, printed and circulated many confrontational tracts in the early days, with limited results. Initially, they did not try to promote the return of the Rtvik process, but rather focused on the advanced spiritual qualifications required to become a bonafide diksa guru

I personally know scores of good, dedicated devotees in current Iskcon, and yes, they represent the core of Prabhupada's mission. The top is mostly rotten, but I am very optimistic about the future.

When those in charge are rotten, you are optimistic - naive would be a more appropriate word.

Those who are in charge, namely the centralized GBC, are steering ISKCON - it's core mission - and its NOT in the direction that Prabhupada intended.

I never said that 'all things' are up for editing. The core of his mission as presented in ISKCON's original incorporation statements is non-negotiable, but precisely what form our efforts take to achieve these goals is very much flexible and a matter of pragmatic opinion.

Your speculative hopefulness that Prabhupada can be questioned at every turn is only exceeded by your naivety in believing that the current ISKCON presents Prabhupada's 'core' mission.

I'm not categorically opposed to ritual. But to believe the power is in the ritual is being a magician as opposed to a spiritual practioner.

It IS to a very large extent a matter of opinion. And Prabhupada was not only sometimes ambiguous, but also practical, pragmatic, and willing to make a 180 degrees turn on his 'way' to correct the course.

I already admitted that he flexed according to time and circumstance on some things. But making it all things is just your wishful thinking.

That was my orginal point: WHO decides what EXACTLY is the actual 'Prabhupada's way'? There are obviously various opinions on that.

You wish it were just a matter of opinion. There also a lot of traditionalist opinions, but they get touted as gospel.

Prabhupada was rarely ambiguous. Read his books, his letters, listen to the tapes, those that haven't been tampered with.

Who is our real Guru?

The real guru is inside- in the head of all beings- in the Gurumandala just above ajna chakra.

 

The gurus that we find outside are the ones whose gurumandala is active. Without this guru-centre in side one-self active no one can be a genune guru. Once the inner guru is activated the need and role of an external guru comes to an end as spiritual lessions and knowledge spontaniously springs from this inner guru-centre.

 

K.Ravindran

Do you have shastric support for this? This is not a challenge. I'm just interested. Guru is one.

Bob is meant to prove nothing. Thats the point. Just an old song about abe who had to kill his son coz of his 'religion'.

 

Weird stuff that kind of religion:rolleyes:.

So bob has spoken dismissing the entire Abrahamic tradition. Ok.

nah cbrahma...you have painted me as a picture. I dont give a damn about traditionalists or rituals. If you passed me in the street you would'nt even know I was a devotee. Most just think I am a bum.

 

Please dont place me as one of the dried flowers in your pot-puree. I am none of that cluster. Look beyond your own picture of me please....thx.

I'm not painting you at all. I am bringing out the injustice of the free-wheeling criticism of Prabhupada which has been informally authorized by the present self-deputed Vaisnava culture, mostly traditional, sometimes Gaudiya Math and today even ISKCON.

bob...

Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"

Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"

God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"

God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but

The next time you see me comin' you better run"

Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"

God says, "Out on Highway 61."

Not sure what bob dasa's commentary is meant to prove.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get Intiated By A Real ISKCON Diksa Guru And Be Happy!

 

 

That may only mean Krsna Chandra das reads Rocana also.

Well since he doesn't own the reference, that would seriously damage his credibility, don't you think?

ok...where is 'Pure Prabhupada' found?

 

That is funny. Everyone claiming to hold the pure essence, or claiming a need to control that essence.

 

I find these constant debates a turn off on the road toward Gaudiya Vaisnavism. I am sure some people outside of Hare Krsna circles would feel similar. And question what is all this discussion about.

 

I thought you were into simplicity cbrahma. Or are you a holder of the 'pure way' too?

 

Sorry, life is to short to have endless debates about Prabhupada and the original teaching. I wish I could just live the instructions...and surrender to them (but without sangha thats a big ask - and where is the sangha - its concealed in a divided fragmented institutional movement)! I would rather take the highway than listen to all these projections from others. And if that is rejecting Srila Prabhupada, in some peoples eyes, so be it!

 

It is funny. Its a joke.

Religionists with their demands on formal membership and the hundred and one dry rules and requirements are not controlling.

Well you are debating. And there is some serious double-think going on here. It seems open season on Prabhupada, but dare question the traditionalists and any of the (huff - puff) little rituals and formalities they boast of and one is called apharadi who doesn't understand Vaisnavism.

Prabhupada has been so flexible that many traditionalist don't even consider him to be part of the parampara. But that is not license for the free for all which is present ISKCON , a free-for-all only for the hoi-poloi in management.

Prabhupada's Way or the Highway!

 

Nice slogan for the historically challenged. Study the ISKCON history in Prabhupada's time for clues as to how that 'way' affected people and management of society. Those who suggest that that 'way' produced only good results and successful preaching are in a very deep illusion. Placing in position of control 'power junkie type' young sannyasis... sending 6 year old kids to India to be 'properly trained' by untrained strangers... placing women on the margins of society and giving them just four years of schooling... that was 'Prabhupada's way' too.

 

Prabhupada adjusted his way all the time, based on pragmatism. Time, place and circumstances.

I don't have to study the history. I was there. I know the spirit, the intention, the siddhanta that Prabhupada was preaching. There are things that can be adjusted and things that should never be adjusted and he knew the difference. Now everything is up for grabs. The traditional religionists are those that expect rigid adherence to formal diksa and all the rules appertaining. It their way or the highway.

Think about it. Scripture and Srila Prabhupada's teaching back these statements up.

 

This need for control has tainted many religious movements during the course of history, not just individuals.

 

If we can get back to basics, and by grace see the unconscious workings of our minds...maybe then we can 'accept change', and let go of the need to control and the fear involved in that need. Why should fear be the catalyst for decisions?

 

Decisions as important as Iskcon's future should be made from 'clear mind' when possible. Then the movement will never stifle, will always be dynamic...and fully dependant upon Lord Nitaai in surrender. (and ofcourse that may involve no change if the Lord wills - personally I doubt it).

this is very funny. Religionists with their demands on formal membership and the hundred and one dry rules and requirements are not controlling. But with Prabhupada who gave Lord Caitanya's mercy freely, following his direction is control. This is just hilarious.

<TABLE cellSpacing=10 cellPadding=20 width=750 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle bgColor=#e4efef>“ISKCON” Gurus, Initiations, and Party Men

 

By Kailasa Candra dasa

 

 

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During the final years of the preaching activities of His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaj Prabhupada Thakura, who was both shaktyavesh-avatar and Sampradaya-Acharya, one of his favorite initiated disciples was Professor Sanyal, a learned intellectual and an accomplished writer. Even during his manifest lila, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Gosvami Prabhupada--who was and remains a direct associate of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu (along with his illustrious father, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)--approved of Professor Sanyal’s book.

 

 

 

 

 

This book, entitled Krishna Chaitanya, was entirely bona fide according to the Sampradaya Acharya. I once possessed it, but the mahant of the Radha-Raman temple, Visvambhara Gosvami, asked me in Vrindavan to give it to him in 1984. I acquiesced to the request. His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the most recent Sampradaya-Acharya and our initiating spiritual master, allowed that this book be consulted and read by his disciples, along with Bon Maharaj's Bhaktirasamritasindhu.

 

 

 

 

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The use of the term Sampradaya-Acarya is here used in the same way as Rocana dasa used it in the thread that I started on the subject.